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LonewandererD
05-17-2010, 04:01 AM
Long title I know.

Here is the beginning of my new map, the Dominion (Dal equivelant of a Duchy or State) of the Elders of Sorres, this is the second of three projects I have planned. My last map, White Rock City, was the capital of the region so i thought the safest attempt for my next map would be to do the region itself. First some background, the region is the smallest of the dominions of the Dal, being only 7500 square miles which is a little more than 5% of the total Dal land. The region is bordered to the west by the Young Peaks, to the north by Jeharitu's Ridge and to the south by the northern coastal marshes of the Dominion of the Ten-Kerai clan. The land used to be apart of the Dominion of the clan of Sorres but the clan was wiped out after their lands were invaded by the Ten-Kerai and the Bae-Sunn clans. The Sava'N Elders of White City, who were known for the peace-loving ideals and great inventions, sent a message to the Jha'N, the leader of the Dal, pleading to have their people spared. The Jha'N proved to be mercifull on that occassion, and even though the Sorres were annihilated, the Elders were spared and some of the land were gifted back to them and the Elders were instated as the leaders of their own new dominion. Although most of the land captured by the invading clans remained in their possession a large tract of flood-plain, now called The Gift, perfect for the farming of rice was gven back to the Elders. The dominion is also protected from attack by other clans by a Royal Treaty, but only on the condition that the Elders do not take hostile military actions against anyone else except at the command of the Jha'N. This dominion is also the first case in the history of the Dal where members of the Sava'N caste have attained this much administrative power and, although they have no real military power or a noble bloodline, have a member sitting on the Jha'N's council.

Anyway, enough talk. I have already done the base work for the map including the water, landmass and colour and rough bases for areas of elevation. This map will not be as big or as indepth as my other map, I don't think I would be able to handle a task like that again anytime in the near future. More work to come soon.

-D-

Yandor
05-17-2010, 09:42 AM
haha looks good so far, and right when I clicked on the picture, my first words were "Good hell hes crazy" haha but I only skimmed the post, went back and read it =D haha can't wait to see how it turns out, cause I can see this being just as intense as the first one without you even realizing your putting in that much effort!

LonewandererD
05-18-2010, 08:13 AM
An update

Blended in some of the elevation levels to make some areas look more like hills than like terraces. Put in some of the rivers, the main ones at least, and put in the mountains.

I'm having some troubles with getting the forests, I'm trying to get a good solid covering of forest with the elevations still shwoing through. More to come soon.

-D-

tilt
05-18-2010, 11:26 AM
looking good - try putting your forests in a multiply layer that should help preserve the levels

LonewandererD
05-18-2010, 12:20 PM
False alarm, i solved the problem almost immediatley after posting this :)

I've put in some of the forest, still needs a lot more work and cleaning before I can move on.

-D-

tilt
05-18-2010, 02:03 PM
you probably will remember but just in case- mask the forest where the river runs :)

LonewandererD
05-20-2010, 10:01 AM
Can't talk for long because I really need to be asleep right now, a combination of exam nerves, a cold and work make for a tired D.

Nonetheless, here's an update. Added in more forests and rivers and put down the base for the marshes and floodplains, will be experimenting on them all alot as they really don't look like marshes or floodplains right now, anyone have any thoughts?

-D-

LonewandererD
05-27-2010, 04:07 AM
I thought it was going be simply but again i was wrong.

After putting down my towns, main roads and defences I noted that my map still looked kinda empty. So in an act of insanity I decided to put in villages and dirt raods linking them all together, that filled up some space. Here's the map as it stands now, the purple dots show where the villages will go, one set every three miles or close enough to three miles.

-D-

tilt
05-27-2010, 04:19 AM
very nice - and also very populated, one would think that perhaps there would be some less populated territories, something like a lot of villages close to the cities, and less as you move away. Villages on a string between cities - at least fitting with travel times. For instance D&D suggests that a person on foot or a cart can travle 25 miles per day (a fast horse double that), so that would with time create a village every stop. Likewise can a boat travel about 20-30 miles per day (sailing ship 80) which again would create towns and hamlets. I would also think that there would be a lot fewer towns in the forest, they would probably build at the outskirts instead.

LonewandererD
05-27-2010, 04:41 AM
I had thought of that but the kingdom generator had estimated that I would need 890 villages to support an area this big and this is only 453, I lost space to the ocean. I am looking into removing viallges from the mountain and higher areas, i won't be removing them from the flood plains, that area is prime farming ground and the Dal would want to use it to it's full advantage.

-D-

Andartar
05-27-2010, 04:46 AM
It looks really great, but a the moment the distribution of villages seems very artificial. In my opinion a little more randomness would do it good. If you look att maps over Europe, the villages aren't evenly distributed over the country side. Just a thought.

LonewandererD
05-27-2010, 05:03 AM
Okay, how can i make their placement less artificial? I know that villages would sprout on the main roads and at river crossings but where else would they appear?

-D-

Jkaen
05-27-2010, 06:37 AM
The thing I find odd about the map is that none of the villages seem to be on crossroads, they are all on single roads.

From what I undersand road junctions are one of the prime places for a village to form

LonewandererD
05-27-2010, 06:39 AM
That's because the villages were placed down first and the roads second, I am correcting that.

-D-

Torius
05-27-2010, 02:45 PM
I like the look of your ocean and think this map is coming along nicely!

tilt
05-27-2010, 02:47 PM
I had thought of that but the kingdom generator had estimated that I would need 890 villages to support an area this big and this is only 453, I lost space to the ocean. I am looking into removing viallges from the mountain and higher areas, i won't be removing them from the flood plains, that area is prime farming ground and the Dal would want to use it to it's full advantage.

Don't trust generators - trust your guts... maybe some of the food resouces come from over the sea - maybe some of the vilages farm really much.

Okay, how can i make their placement less artificial? I know that villages would sprout on the main roads and at river crossings but where else would they appear?

I would place a lot of villages close to the cities where they have easy access to selling their goods - and as you get further away, the number dwindles... :)

Ascension
05-27-2010, 04:06 PM
I do my town placement through a long ordeal. First I put down my capitals and put roads between those. Then I place my ducal cities and connect the roads. Where roads intersect I put smaller towns for earls and barons and make more roads. Where those roads meet I put villages and hamlets. Once that's all done I try to simplify the road system and redo everything :) I always have mountain villages, towns where rivers meet, and some coastal cities in bays or deltas. Placing things so that it looks natural depends on the culture of the society really but the natural geography plays some sort of role. Orderly cultures will space things evenly among the nobility so that everyone gets the same amount of space, merchant cultures will accept small spaces if they make a lot of money importing or exporting or manufacturing, native or wild cultures will be haphazard or nomadic, religious cultures always seem to be the strictest..."stay out but not too far out cuz I still want to control you" so everything ends up clustered around a main city. That's the way I do mine so you can adapt however you feel.

LonewandererD
05-28-2010, 08:27 AM
Okay, redid my village placement.

I reduced it from 453 villages to 90, which equals to 10 vilages per town and 15 villages per city, that sounds good. I also removed all of the unneccisary roads.

-D-

tilt
05-28-2010, 10:53 AM
thats a huge improvement.. very nice indeed... you could place a few extra villages close to the cities as there probably would be a tighter population density those places - but looking really good now :)

LonewandererD
05-28-2010, 10:59 AM
I can't put villages any closer to the cities or towns than they are now. I've put a limit of 3 miles which is the closest that a village can be to a city except in specific circumstances. My current scale is 40 pixels = 1 mile so some of the villages are a little close already.

-D-

Katto
05-28-2010, 11:24 AM
Much better with less villages, but perhaps you have deleted too much? In the agricultural rich areas the villages could be a bit more crowded, otherwise the placement is good. Great job so far!

tilt
05-28-2010, 01:41 PM
I can't put villages any closer to the cities or towns than they are now. I've put a limit of 3 miles which is the closest that a village can be to a city except in specific circumstances. My current scale is 40 pixels = 1 mile so some of the villages are a little close already.

Ah - there is no scale on the map - so I thought there were further between them. That being said, the hamlet I live in is about 1 km (,667 miles) away from the town center, and within 3 miles I guess (in ancient times) there would have been 4-5 hamlets and perhaps 2 larger hamlets. Its pretty much a question about people building a house where its practical and more houses shooting up until you have a hamlet. This can happen because of good areas for farming or pastures or just because some special feature is present. Where I live its pretty obvious that this hamlet began with some spread out farms, then came a church, then came the houses... :)

LonewandererD
05-29-2010, 01:06 AM
Okay, put down the actual villages but still checking for more logical placement for villages. I'm also going back and revising the look of the towns, they look a little too "blobby", pics to come soon.

A question on farming though, how far out from a settlement would farms extend, I want them to look natural but not take up all of the space, some spaces across The Gift would be reserved for livestock and farmers wouldn't dare plant farms around the shrines of land spirits, that's how problems start.

-D-

tilt
05-29-2010, 01:55 AM
A poor farmer had perhaps 2-3 Ha (1 Hectare = 100 x 100 meter = 2.47105 acres) a rich up to about 40. Then you just have to calculate ;)
A normal farmer would, in addition to his corn fields probably have a couple of cows, hens etc so he could support all his families needs in addition to paying taxes to his Lord.

LonewandererD
05-29-2010, 06:55 AM
So if I had farms branching between 1 and 2 miles out from a village would that be natural?

-D-

tilt
05-29-2010, 04:16 PM
I think that would be perfectly natural, and even further would also be possible in some cases as all farms don't lie close the to village, and their farmland can stretch out far from the farm.

LonewandererD
05-29-2010, 11:25 PM
Okay, here is an update.

I've put down more villages and put in the first draft of the farmland. The map still seems to be lacking something, other than the decorative features like scale, border, etc. The farm texture was provided by Bambua aqnd all credt goes to him for creating it.

-D-

tilt
05-30-2010, 02:26 AM
looking really good nice work :)

rdanhenry
05-30-2010, 03:27 AM
Where is the light coming from? The shadows are very inconsistent. Some mountains are shadowed on the south side, for example, while others are shadowed on the north side.

LonewandererD
05-30-2010, 03:36 AM
The light is coming from the southeast. All the lighting effects are handled by the computer and the mountains are built up in layers which could causing some anomalies in the lighting but it should all be correct.

-D-

Steel General
05-30-2010, 08:18 AM
Very nice, one little thing that 'caught my eye' is the ocean color in the bay in the extreme south.

The water is so bright (it looks like you used a gradient of some sort) that it pulls the eye away form the other
map details around it.

Jaxilon
05-30-2010, 11:27 AM
I especially like how you handled the villages and cities; each with their own little style. Very nice.

LonewandererD
06-01-2010, 12:28 AM
Update...

I've put in most of the decorative features and most of the labels. Almost done now.

-D-

tilt
06-01-2010, 04:14 AM
looking good, a few notes though.
The small texts in water are a little weak (but not a big problem)
Your rivers and roads in the forresty areas looks like they are floating on top of the landscape - it might be a trick of the light, but does in places look like the river has a drop shadow.

LonewandererD
06-01-2010, 04:18 AM
Yeah, I know what you mean, I have addressed that problem. I redid the text so that's it all white but its stroke matches its background so it stands out and sort of blends in at the same time. Still experiment with the text for the towns to tone them down a bit. I've tried to address that river problem, it does have something to with the lighting, where it meets a cliff or descend I'm going to put an obvious angle on it to make it look like its dropping.

EDIT: Scratch that idea, tried it and it doesn't work as well as I thought it would...

-D-

Juggernaut1981
06-01-2010, 05:31 AM
Just a couple of thoughts from poking around the map.

#1 Greenroad Keep
Is it defending the road, the river, or the riverbank? And which direction is it supposed to defend "from" (i.e. is it defending against attacks from the North?). It may need to move to the other side of a riverbank if it's supposed to be defending "from" anywhere but the major cities and if it's supposed to be defending something other than the road. Also, the village would spring up almost on top of the Keep. Lords have cash to spend and those who can supply goods to the Lord would want to live close by.

#2 Oldfield Keep
Oldfield Town would be near Oldfield Keep. So either the Keep needs another name (and Oldfield Town should have Oldfield Fort or Oldfield Tower or Oldfield Keep nearby depending on how heavily it needs to defend itself)... or the Town needs a new name (and Oldfieldton would be a hamlet/village near the Keep)

Those are the main C&C-nit-picks. Nothing else that I'd say "needed" to be changed, just personally I'd have called that place Riversmouth or [Insert Name's] Crossing.

LonewandererD
06-01-2010, 05:54 AM
I understand where you are coming from Juggernaut and that thought did cross my mind, both can be explained in the backstory.

Greenroad keep - it is a little unclear on the map but there is a village litterally right next to the keep, the keep itself was built a long time back when the upper gift first belonged to another clan and the only other river crossing was at Sorrescei's Port so it was originally meant to defend from attack coming south from Jeharitu's ridge. When the clan of the Sorres expanded further north the keep was all but abandoned due to it's diminished strategic value, some of it was dismantled for resources to another keep further north. It then became a small village for casteless bandits; it was only recently reclaimed by the Elders of Sorres. Still a new group the Elders felt it was simpler to rebuild a already existing fortification rather than relocate it and also because the keep has lost some of it's importance as the Elders are protected from invasion by the other clans by royal decree. The keep now only really serves as a fortified checkpoint for patrols moving along the Greenroad and has a small garrison of mounted troops for a rapid reponse from bandits striking south from Jeharitu's forest.

Oldfield - Thankyou for bringing this to my attention, I had planned to change the names and thought I did it already. Oldfield town will be renamed Orchard Hill Town.

-D-

LonewandererD
06-02-2010, 02:08 AM
Okay, this is hopefully the last update.

If no one can find any problems with it i'll be putting it into the Finished Map section on Saturday.

-D-

Diamond
06-02-2010, 02:45 AM
That's awesome, man.

Really, the only thing that bugs me is, like tilt mentiond, the rivers and roads seem to float over the forests. Not a big deal with the roads, since they're man-made, but with the rivers it just looks odd. Sadly, I don't have any suggestions to improve it. :(

tilt
06-02-2010, 02:51 AM
I don't know how the rivers and roads have been made - but it looks like they have a drop shadow in some places - which makes the roads look like they are on a ridge. If the rivers are made in photoshop - try adding a bevel down to them - or get the forrest to cast a little shadow on them - to lower them into the ground :) ..hope it helps

LonewandererD
06-02-2010, 02:56 AM
Here's the problem tilt, i'm already doing all the things you said, but i'll fiddle with them nonetheless.

EDIT: Did some fiddling and the problem should now be fixed.

-D-

Katto
06-02-2010, 05:15 AM
You have deleted the second spring below Orchard Hill Town, but the riverbed is still visible and the point where both sources meet is unclean. Nothing else to criticize. Good job.

LonewandererD
06-05-2010, 04:14 AM
Map completed and posted in Finished Map section.

http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?10659-The-Dominion-of-the-Elders-of-Sorres&p=114759#post114759

-D-