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nai888
07-08-2010, 01:46 AM
Hello, everyone. This is my first map.

Not only my first map on this forum, but my first map ever. I've considered trying in the past, but I had absolutely no idea where to even begin. I've managed this so far with the aid of Jezelf's tutorials (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?2557-Award-Winner-Making-maps-in-Photoshop). I used the first and third of those five tutorials, though I made a few changes here and there (and I did it in GIMP instead of PS).

This is a map of the country of Eino which is quite far north, at around the latitude of Earth's Scandanavia. I have not added a compass, scale, or labels yet. I've got a few things named, but still need names for most of the map's features yet. It will be done, however, using the conlang which I've been creating, Eindo (well, the language is already created, it's simply the dictionary that I still need to build. I currently have a lexicon with a bit over 500 entries), which is what is spoken in the region depicted in the map.

Seretur
07-08-2010, 02:20 AM
Wow, you did your first tutorial translating it from Gimp to PS? Nice!

Lexicons are always the hardest part of conlanging. I don't think I've ever gotten more than 200 entries in mine :D

Back to the map, it looks very nice, especially considering you were using the wrong program for the tutorials. You've inspired me to try doing PS tuts in Gimp again. ;)

tilt
07-08-2010, 05:31 AM
hi nai, congrats on your first map - very nice. Interesting with the trees of different sizes, what do the size represent - density? ... good work though, now you're ready for varying the symbols more so you'll have different looking elements in the map and not just the same element in different sizes... have some rep for your first EVER map :) *swing my mace of ok repping +4*

Gidde
07-08-2010, 08:40 AM
First-map rep coming your way from me as well! Looking great so far, and as I've attempted many PS tutorials in GIMP, I know that's a lot of work and experimentation! My only crit so far is that it's all very faint against the background. Any chance of upping the contrast a bit?

hohum
07-08-2010, 08:55 AM
The only problem I see is that some of the larger trees give the impression that they are mountains. I wouldn't mind the variable tree size so much if they didn't get so huge. Otherwise cool map. And definitely have some rep for converting the process to GIMP, that can sometimes be the most difficult part.

nai888
07-08-2010, 10:21 AM
Wow, you did your first tutorial translating it from Gimp to PS? Nice!
Oh, I don't know. I've always found them to be quite similar in design, so I think I've actually probably used more PS tutorials for various things over the years than GIMP ones (wait, that makes me sound like I'm an expert in GIMP because I've been using it for "years." Believe me, I'm not. I just learned what layer masks were yesterday...:P).

Lexicons are always the hardest part of conlanging. I don't think I've ever gotten more than 200 entries in mine :D
Yeah, this is the first time that I've ever gotten more than about 100 or so. It's because I finally actually like this one, and I have a fairly thorough derivational system which helps to create lots of words with fewer roots.

My only crit so far is that it's all very faint against the background. Any chance of upping the contrast a bit?
Okay, I'll work on that, thanks!

now you're ready for varying the symbols more so you'll have different looking elements in the map and not just the same element in different sizes.

The only problem I see is that some of the larger trees give the impression that they are mountains. I wouldn't mind the variable tree size so much if they didn't get so huge.
Yeah, the major thing that I dislike about this map is the mountains and forests, but I haven't figured out exactly how to do it much better. The layout of the forests and mountains is pretty much exactly what I had in mind, but I'm not a fan of the symbols, and yeah, they all look the same. That's one of my next projects, along with the compass, scale, labels, and perhaps cities.

tilt
07-08-2010, 10:47 AM
feel free to be inspired or use compasses from my compass thread (see signature) ... when you see all the beautiful "tolkien style" maps out there, take note that they use 20-30-40 different symbols for every element, especially mountains have a lot of different shapes, and by making lots of symbols for those you add to the diversity of the map. You'll get there ... don't worry :)

nai888
07-08-2010, 11:03 AM
Oi, I'm just thinking of how long that will take to use that many different symbols, considering how long it took me to do this. Oh well, I guess quality does generally entail effort... :P

Gidde
07-08-2010, 11:23 AM
Since you're using gimp, it's not as bad as all that. Just grab (or make) a brush pipe. It randomly picks one of its set of symbols every time you click. For example, I've got a few tree pipe sets posted in the mapping elements section. Just download them, drop them into your gimp brush directory, and with some clever spacing setup, you can just paint in your forests in no time.

tilt
07-08-2010, 01:23 PM
hmmmm.. now I've heard about the brush pipe thing several times - maybe I should try looking at GIMP one day - especially since Adobe Photoshop has made NO progress in handling of non-transparent brushes in the last about 1000 versions :(

Gidde
07-08-2010, 01:26 PM
It's one of two major advantages to using Gimp, in my humble opinion. The second being the bump map. I can't stress enough how much easier to work with it is than bevel/emboss layer styles in PS.

tilt
07-08-2010, 01:33 PM
well, you can work with bump maps in photoshop - but I find it a little ... eh... not difficult but time consuming. I guess I've gotta test GIMP one of these days :)

nai888
07-08-2010, 02:02 PM
Since you're using gimp, it's not as bad as all that. Just grab (or make) a brush pipe. It randomly picks one of its set of symbols every time you click. For example, I've got a few tree pipe sets posted in the mapping elements section. Just download them, drop them into your gimp brush directory, and with some clever spacing setup, you can just paint in your forests in no time.
I've never even heard of that. It was exactly what I was looking for, and it turns out I could have had it! Argh! I'll have to look into that. The other thing I was contemplating was somehow making a tileable pattern of trees and just putting those down, meaning I could go in larger clumps than just single trees at a time. I suppose that would be noticeably repetitive, though, and I don't know how to do that, either.

It's one of two major advantages to using Gimp, in my humble opinion. The second being the bump map.
With the third major advantage being that it's completely free.:P

ravells
07-08-2010, 02:05 PM
Great first map! Have some more rep and keep going!

nai888
07-08-2010, 02:20 PM
So, Gidde, I just looked at your finished maps, and I especially liked your Velaedin Empire (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?10275-The-Velaedin-Empire). I don't want to make this map exactly like that one, I like how a lot of my map looks, but the mountains and forests at least I would love to make look something like that. You said in that other thread that you used a tutorial by Ironmetal. Assuming you still have it, do you think you might be able to give me a link to that tutorial?

Seretur
07-08-2010, 02:47 PM
@nai: I think this may be it. (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?5664-Award-Winner-Hand-drawn-mtns.-and-other-stylistic-map-elements-for-use-in-PS-GIMP) It's the only tutorial ironmetal wrote.

@Gidde: How do you make a brush pipe? I downloaded yours from the "Hand-Drawn Mapping for the Artistically Challenged", but I'd like to make some of my own, and I'm sure nai would find the information useful as well.

Gidde
07-08-2010, 02:52 PM
This tutorial (http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/Custom_Brushes/) on the GIMP.org site is fantastic. It'll take you right through the whole process.

Edit: forgot to answer the other question. The tut Seretur linked is indeed the ironmetal tut I used to develop the VE style.

Gidde
07-08-2010, 03:05 PM
Sorry for double post ... I really need to read slower before I post, lol. You may also want to try fluesopp's Automatic Forester (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?8620-Automatic-Forester&highlight=forester).

Diamond
07-08-2010, 11:16 PM
Hey, that's a pretty durn good first map, Nai! I can only repeat what others have said r.e. the forest/mountain size, but I'm confident you'll do fine. Welcome to the Guild, and have some rep from me also.

nai888
07-09-2010, 12:14 AM
Thanks Seretur and Gidde, I'll look through those and see what I can do with them.

nai888
07-09-2010, 11:47 AM
I now have an updated version. Still not done, as I haven't done most of what I still need to do, but even so it looks a million times better. I found RobA's tutorial Creating Old Paper/Parchment in GIMP (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?533-Tutorial-Creating-old-weathered-paper-using-the-Gimp), and modified it a bit, which made the paper look FAR better and had the added bonus of giving more contrast! :D

Gidde
07-09-2010, 05:00 PM
Agreed, that looks much better! Keep up the good work :)

Ascension
07-09-2010, 07:59 PM
All I can really say is that you should probably change up the mtns as they're all the same shape stamped down a bunch...looks a tad repetitive. Other than that it looks pretty good.

nai888
07-09-2010, 08:19 PM
Thanks. That's actually exactly what I've been working on for a while now. The new ones look much, much better (and much more varied). :D Next step is the forests.

EDIT: I've now finished with the new mountains, for now at least, as well as a compass, so I'm posting that. As I said, the next step is the forest which now looks even worse than it already did in comparison to the new mountains.

nai888
07-11-2010, 10:29 AM
All right! I've finally finished with the trees! Now this whole project seems much less daunting. I have a feeling that the mountains and forests of a map always take the longest. Now all I have left are adding cities, labels, a border, and a legend!

Ascension
07-11-2010, 10:32 AM
This is a small thing but it will take some time...the splotches on the mtns are about the same size as the trees so you might want to erase those blobs. Otherwise it looks great.

nai888
07-11-2010, 10:35 AM
This is a small thing but it will take some time...the splotches on the mtns are about the same size as the trees so you might want to erase those blobs. Otherwise it looks great.
Hmmm, I would think that getting rid of those would make the mountains seem flat and unrealistic. Mountains don't generall just have a bright side and a shadowy side, they have bumps and crevices. Hmmm, but I see what you mean, though. I definitely had not thought of that at all.

Ascension
07-11-2010, 10:37 AM
I totally understand the desire for the nooks and crannies and shadows. These mtns have shadows so maybe just expand on those or make the blobs longer.

tilt
07-12-2010, 02:53 AM
looking way better now... but I agree with Ascencion - those blotches makes the mountains look spotty...
Nurse. "Whats the diagnosis doctor?"
Doctor: "That Mountain got trees - no doubt about it" ;)

I'd change the blotches to thinner "broken" lines instead - then you'l get your cracks without "sick" mountains ;)

nai888
07-18-2010, 07:06 PM
Okay, well coming up with names for everything is taking longer than I thought it was (I'm coming up with a general idea for the name in English, creating the name in Eindo, then translating that name into English since English speakers won't know how to pronounce a number of the characters in the language. Later I'm going to make a second copy which is in Eindo, and a third copy which is in Eindo using the alphabet which I've devised for the language). I have names for probably about 90% of the map, but that last 10% is difficult, because I've already used so many ideas and I don't want to just reuse them. Then, once I've come up with them all I need to place them and make them visible above the map's terrain.

Since it's taking so long, I decided to post a copy of what I have done so far since the last post, which is add a border and a legend.

EDIT: Oh yes, and I also still need to fix the bumps on the mountains so that they look less like trees.

nai888
07-24-2010, 01:40 PM
I've now finished with the labels, finally! I have a list of labels and names in both English and Eindo, the Eindo labels using both the Latin and Eindo alphabets. This image has the English labels. I haven't begun with the Eindo labels, yet, but now that I actually have all of the places and features named, it'll be much faster.

I've also added the roads, cities, and towns, and I fixed the mountains, at least partially. Let me know if you think I did enough with them or if they still need even more work.

Juggernaut1981
07-24-2010, 07:59 PM
Just a possible River Violation...
Um, where does Lazhdo Lake get its water from?

Otherwise, it's looking like a good use of a few of the different hand-drawn tutorials. On the rivers, maybe just gently blur them (1 or 2 px) just to smooth them out a little. Or duplicate them, blur it by 2px, set the opacity down around 60% and merge it down over the rivers.

nai888
07-24-2010, 08:41 PM
Hmmm, would it be ridiculous to suggest a subterranean river originating in the White Mountains? Otherwise, I was assuming that, considering how large this country is and how few rivers there are, that there are a number of smaller rivers, creeks, etc. which are not shown, the map instead only showing major rivers.

Ascension
07-24-2010, 08:42 PM
That's plausible (small creeks) as is endorheic basin.

nai888
07-24-2010, 08:47 PM
Well, when I was looking up various lake-types in order to answer the question, I saw the endorheic basins, but I believe that usually happens in desert areas, not in the middle of a plains near the edge of a dense forest. I could be wrong, though.

rdanhenry
07-24-2010, 08:48 PM
"Forests's Edge" has an excess "s".
The mountains remind me a little of strawberries sometimes, but that could just be my stomach talking. I think you can be happy with them.

nai888
07-28-2010, 01:13 AM
Ah, good catch on that extra "s"! I probably would not have caught that! And sorry, I don't quite see the strawberries unless I use my imagination...

I've fixed that extra "s" and made the labels in Eindo using both Latin and Eindo characters.

It should be noted that the scale on the maps labeled using the Eindo language is different than the scale on the map labeled in English. This is because the Eindo numerical system is duodecimal (base 12) rather than decimal (base 10). That means two things. First, when a number is shown as "10" in base 12, it actually refers to "12" in base 10. Continuing that, "20" would equal 24, "30" would equal 36, "100" would equal 144, and "1,000" would equal 1,728. This brings me to the second difference. Similarly to the word "mile," which is derived from the Latin word for 1,000, referring to the distance one would travel after taking 1,000 paces, the Eindo word for "mile" is derived from the Eindo word for "1,000," which is actually 1,728 in base 10, which is much further. These two facts, that the Eino mile is much longer than a standard mile and that the scale is labeled in a way that "10" refers to 12, not 10, means that while on the English map 50 pixels equaled 20 miles, now 49 (technically 49.0909090909... but who's counting?) equals "10" miles. That is the reason for the differences in the scale.

I hope that made sense. Probably not, but I'm not quite sure how to explain it any better.

Also, might anyone be able to tell me why the site won't display a thumbnail of the third one? It shows it if you view it maximum size, but it won't show it as a thumbnail.

rdanhenry
07-28-2010, 02:37 AM
There are issues with the thumbnailer (is that a word?) since the last forum upgrade. Other than it being a known issue, I can't tell you what the status is on getting it fixed. Just letting you know it isn't anything you've done wrong.

Gidde
07-28-2010, 10:56 AM
Bravo on the guts (and work) to incorporate base12 :) I've been toying with the idea of base8 for my world, but usually come to the conclusion that it's too much work ;) looking good, I'll have to take a closer look on the real screen tonight.

Jaxilon
07-28-2010, 10:29 PM
That is looking great. I really love the texture of your map, zoomed in it's got a really nice feel.

nai888
08-01-2010, 02:46 PM
There are issues with the thumbnailer (is that a word?) since the last forum upgrade. Other than it being a known issue, I can't tell you what the status is on getting it fixed. Just letting you know it isn't anything you've done wrong.
Okay, thanks. Apparently it's been fixed, though, so no more worry!

Bravo on the guts (and work) to incorporate base12 :) I've been toying with the idea of base8 for my world, but usually come to the conclusion that it's too much work ;)
Well, it definitely did take a little bit of work, but I'm pretty determined that base 12 is overall superior to base 10. Too bad we have 10 fingers, which is likely why most cultures came up with base 10 as they were developing. So, I was willing to do the math. It ended up actually not being as difficult as I expected, though.

looking good, I'll have to take a closer look on the real screen tonight.
Thanks! I look forward to hearing what you think!

That is looking great. I really love the texture of your map, zoomed in it's got a really nice feel.
Thanks! I kind of adapted my own version of RobA's "Creating Old Parchment" tutorial, and I like how it came out.

Gidde
08-01-2010, 04:04 PM
The outer glow is a little overpowering over the lakes and oceans; you may want to blur those ones more so that there's a more gradual transition to the light beneath the text from the surrounding darkness. That's just a nitpick though, it really is looking great!

nai888
08-02-2010, 10:23 AM
I was thinking about that, and I'm not sure why I didn't do anything about it before you mentioned that. It was an easy enough fix. I think it's fixed now. It certainly looks better.

By the way, I forgot to mention in my previous post a few things about the labels. First of all, the letter [j] is pronounced like in German, like the English consonantal [y], the letter [q] is pronounced further back in the throat than [k], as it is in Arabic, and the letter [c] is the voiced version of [q] (meaning it sounds like a [g] but further back in the throat). If you're interested in figuring out all of the pronunciations, what the runes are, and perhaps even the grammar, I've uploaded a pdf of an overview of the language. If you have any comments on the language, those are welcome, too.

Also, there are five names which pop up a bunch on the map: Joesht/Jt, Lazhdo/Lado, Vynaesh/Vyn, Qolt/Qolto, and Ngutevro/Ňutevřo. These are the five deities of the inhabitants of the area. Joesht is the goddess of water and health, Lazhdo is the god of the forest and death, Vynaesh is the goddess of nature (which includes the harvest) and fertility (which includes birth), Qolt is the god of air, weather, knowledge, and wisdom, and Ngutevro is the god of the earth and strength (not just physical, but also mental, emotional, etc.).

LonewandererD
08-03-2010, 09:45 AM
I haven't really had the time to read thorugh all the langauge pdf but as a person who also trying to create their own langauge I sya bravo to all of the ffort you've put into it. It really gives the map that extra layer of depth. Rep!

-D-