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jaerdaph
11-20-2007, 06:00 PM
Over the course of fantasy RPG history we have seen the published dungeon map evolve from simple black and white (or blue and white) graph paper style maps to more modern renderings that border on the photorealistic. Somewhere beween the old school and the new came a golden age of dungeon maps (at least in my opinion) that can be seen in the old 2e AD&D Forgotten Realms boxed sets, Ruins of Undermountain and Ruins of Undermountain II. I have always loved those Undermountain maps, not only for their shear size and scope, but their use of colors and symbols in new (for the time) yet familiar ways. They emanate complexity in their simplicity.

In this WIP thread I am going to document my progress in creating techniques for reproducing dungeon maps with Campaign Cartographer 3 (CC3) and the Dungeon Designer 3 (DD3) add-on that mimic the style of the maps found in the Ruins of Undermountain I and II boxed sets (UM1 and UM2 from this point on). I will share what I learn along the way in case anyone wants to use CC3/DD3 to do the same.

Here is a sample of a section of a UM1 map:

http://www.chillingtales.com/images/UMI.jpghttp://www.rpgnow.com/images/44/16785.jpg

And here is a sample section of a UM2 map:

http://www.chillingtales.com/images/UMII.jpghttp://www.rpgnow.com/images/44/16789.jpg

I have already started to run into some technical difficulties, particularly with the ways grids work in CC3 and trying to get them to work with these maps. I look forward to crossing that bridge when I get to (with fingers crossed that Elminster won't pull a Gandalf and proclaim "you shall not pass!").

Stay tuned for more....

jaerdaph
11-20-2007, 06:06 PM
FYI: The sample of a UM1 map is actually from this product that uses the same style:

http://www.rpgnow.com/images/44/17570.jpg

Also, I'd like to dedicate this thread to the TSR cartographers who designed the original UM1 and UM2 maps: Diesel, Steve Beck, David Sutherland (Rest in peace, great sir), and Dennis Kauth. Thank you all for sparking my imagination and giving me hours of enjoyment.

jaerdaph
11-21-2007, 09:54 AM
First things first (as in the first of the Five Principles of Map Design (http://www.mckinleyville.com/cart/cabinet/cab_cartprinc.html)).

I have chosen an existing dungeon to work from to use for this project. This map is by John "Gozzy" Gosland and can be found on his Web site here:

Dungeon Complex - Level 1 (http://www.gozzys.com/image.php?cm_id=10)

Dungeon Complex - Level 2 (http://www.gozzys.com/image.php?cm_id=11)

I intend, however, to add some caverns of my own design to these.

jaerdaph
11-24-2007, 03:29 PM
Housekeeping: I'm collecting here some suggestions I have received from various sources for reference later.

CC3/Forgotten Realms Undermountain II maps: Looking for a scalable background tile thread at The Cartographers Guild (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=1178)

From darkhall-nestor at EN World (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3896261&postcount=4)

From Grimur Fjeldsted on the CC2 Mailing List (Yahoo Groups membership and login required) (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/cc2-l/message/60280)

jaerdaph
11-24-2007, 03:41 PM
I have already started to run into some technical difficulties, particularly with the ways grids work in CC3 and trying to get them to work with these maps. I look forward to crossing that bridge when I get to (with fingers crossed that Elminster won't pull a Gandalf and proclaim "you shall not pass!").

Over the Thanksgiving holiday, I played around with various options for overcoming this obstacle. If I were to use a grid that covered the entire area of the map (using Draw -> Hex or Square Overlay...) and that grid was in a color other than black, the grid would show up on top of the black background of a UM1 map because of the way sheets work in CC3 (because the GRID sheet sits on top of the BACKGROUND sheet in this case). The same is true if I use the tile background for UM2 style maps. So instead of using a grid that covers the entire map, I will be using a combination of copies of multipolys on different sheets and in different colors and different fill styles (like Solid and Square Grid 10') to accomplish the task.

But more on this when I get there. :)

jaerdaph
11-28-2007, 03:15 PM
STARTING MY MAP

I'm going to use the first level of the dungeon map (http://www.gozzys.com/image.php?cm_id=10) I've selected and re-create it in the style found in UM1.

Scale
Although I'm a big d20 fan where one square equals five feet, I've decided to stick to the old school and use a map scale of one square equals ten feet.

Template
Based on the original map and the scale I've chosen, I determined that I needed to create a template 525 feet wide and 390 feet high to accomodate that map. I did this using the New Drawing Wizard selecting Decide settings myself, Map Type: dungeons, Map Style: DD Pro dungeon, entered my width and height, and chose a solid black fill style and NO grid overlay, then saved the newly created FCW file map with a name.

Once the template was created, I went into File -> Drawing Properties to change the symbol scale to 1.0 (and leave default symbol scale box checked). This is because of a small bug in the wizard template for DD Pro maps in CC3 that messes up the default symbol size by setting the value too small. You may need to save and close the map then open it again before you select and place symbols so they will scale at 1.0 by default.

Symbol Catalog
The best existing symbol catalog that comes with CC3/DD3 for use in these maps is simple.FSC catalog of simple dungeon symbols which have a varicolor component that changes the background fill color leaving the basic outline of the symbol drawing in black. It can be found at the following file path with a default CC3/DD3 installation:

C:\Program Files\Profantasy\CC3\Symbols\Dungeons\Filled\simpl e.FSC

NEXT UP: Choosing Colors

Edit: fixed file path

NeonKnight
11-28-2007, 03:41 PM
Here is a solution to your question about how to make the Grid.

I usually make a copy of all the walls to my Grid layer/Sheet. Change their thickness to 0, eliminate all extraneous extras, and then make it one big polygon with the grid fill style.

jaerdaph
11-29-2007, 12:59 AM
I usually make a copy of all the walls to my Grid layer/Sheet. Change their thickness to 0, eliminate all extraneous extras, and then make it one big polygon with the grid fill style.

Thanks! :) I'm doing something very similar. Basically, I create a color floor from paths, arcs and fractal paths on the Floor sheet/Background (Floor 1) layer, make a copy of the fractal paths on another layer (SECRET) which I then freeze and hide, multipoly the paths/arcs/fractal paths to a single solid poly, copy that to the grid sheet and layer, and change the color and the fill style (to a square grid) of the copy. For the walls, I draw those over those over the floor layer on the Walls sheet and layer as width 0 black paths and arcs and move the copy of the hidden fractal paths there as well. I explode all those items to lines, convert all the lines to paths, then do a combine paths to get seamless walls when I change the line width something thicker.

But based on your suggestion, I may just copy all the original floor paths, arcs and fractal paths to the layer I hide and freeze before the multipoly for use with the walls later to save a few drawing steps.

That was probably really confusing to anyone who hasn't played with CC3 under the hood too much, so I'll write up a better step by step for this process later when I get there. :)

jaerdaph
11-29-2007, 01:17 AM
CHOOSING COLORS

For now I will be using CC3's default 256 color palette. The color scheme I have chosen is a close aproximation of the colors on a UM1 map. Later on I hope to get a really good scan of one of my UM1 maps and extract the exact colors from it, then create a custom palette in CC3 with this info.

Here are the colors I am using followed by the CC3 palette number and any notes as to what they will be used for:

Black 0 (walls, symbols)
White 15 (symbols)
Red 2 (directional arrows up & down)
Pale Yellow 140 (dungeon floor)
Pale Orange 152 (core room)
Yellow 4 (area of interest)
Green 1 (teleport area)
Medium Blue 74 (water)
Gray 18 (elevated area, Skullport style building)
Dark Gray 14 (square grid lines)

ravells
11-29-2007, 08:02 AM
I really like the way that you're approaching this project. A lesson to us all on organised planning!

(A quality I'm sadly lacking in!)

Ravs

jaerdaph
11-29-2007, 09:56 AM
I really like the way that you're approaching this project. A lesson to us all on organised planning!

(A quality I'm sadly lacking in!)

Ravs

LOL - I have to admit it's a new thing for me, trying to get into good habits . :D

jaerdaph
11-30-2007, 12:18 AM
STARTING MY MAP PART II

Before I start drawing my map, I need to prep my CC3 canvas by changing a few settings around.

Grid
This map will have a 1 square = 10' scale, so I've right clicked on the Grid button and selected the 10' Grid, 2 Snap grid system. This is the grid tool for being able to snap to exact points when drawing within CC3 when Snap is selected, not the actual gray square grid overlay I will create later as part of the actual map.

Sheets
I need to change the order of some of the sheets, specifically the GRID sheet. I clicked on the Sheet selector to get the Drawing Sheets dialog box, selected the GRID sheet, and clicked Move Up until GRID was sitting right below the FLOORS sheet on the list. I've done this because I want the grid when it is drawn (on the GRID sheet) to sit on top of the colored floors of the dungeon (on the FLOORS sheet), but have symbols and walls to sit on top of the grid (on the SYMBOLS and WALLS sheets) and essentially not have the square grid obscure them. Here's an abreviated sheet list to show what's happening:

The original sheet list order...

BACKGROUND (the "bottom" layer listed on top because it is drawn by CC3 first)
FLOORS
SYMBOLS
WALLS
TEXT
GRID
MAP BORDER (the "top" layer listed on the bottom because it is drawn by CC3 last)

becomes...

BACKGROUND
FLOORS
GRID
SYMBOLS
WALLS
TEXT
MAP BORDER

As you see I had to Move Up the GRID sheet on the list so that the map grid drawn on it would be drawn earlier than anything sitting on the SYMBOLS, WALLS AND TEXT sheets and thus any symbols, walls and text would appear to sit on top of the map grid (the grid isn't drawn over those things and doesn't obstruct them from view).

I'm hoping this WIP is morphing into something that is part tutorial as well.

NEXT UP: The Dungeon Floor

thebax2k
03-28-2008, 07:45 PM
*casts resurrect on the thread*

Jaerdaph, I don't know if this project has fallen by the wayside or if you are still working on it, but you may want to swap mapping tips and notes with Halaster Blackcloak of the Back in Print Project. He's been working on completing Undermountain with maps of level 7-9 (which TSR never released). He's been at it for awhile, but he recently put up pictures of level 7. Take a look at the results at http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26067&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 (Scroll down the page for the photos.)

Incredible, the map for level 7 looks like it was a printed product straight out of TSR itself! (Its amazing what Photoshop can do). He says that the maps for levels 8 and 9 are going to be double sized, meaning they will be twice as big as a normal, regular Undermountain level!

Doirche
03-29-2008, 02:25 PM
*casts resurrect on the thread*

Jaerdaph, I don't know if this project has fallen by the wayside or if you are still working on it, but you may want to swap mapping tips and notes with Halaster Blackcloak of the Back in Print Project. He's been working on completing Undermountain with maps of level 7-9 (which TSR never released). He's been at it for awhile, but he recently put up pictures of level 7. Take a look at the results at http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26067&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 (Scroll down the page for the photos.)

Incredible, the map for level 7 looks like it was a printed product straight out of TSR itself! (Its amazing what Photoshop can do). He says that the maps for levels 8 and 9 are going to be double sized, meaning they will be twice as big as a normal, regular Undermountain level!

Actually the map was created in Illustrator :D

I just joined the CG and will post the map here as well. Now I need to go and introduce myself.....

jaerdaph
04-01-2008, 05:16 PM
I *shall* return to this thread, if my job will let me have a personal life again... :(

NeonKnight
04-01-2008, 05:59 PM
I *shall* return to this thread, if my job will let me have a personal life again... :(

Was wondering where you went.

Mongoose
01-25-2009, 12:28 PM
This is a nice idea that you got going. :)

I did this map, which is still a WIP based on Undermountain Level 2 as per the orignal box set.

I'm currently also working on Level 1 and also on the lost level map to do them in the same style

I didn't used the orginal mapping style and symbols as I didn't need any copyright issues or anything.

If you want this map, in .fcw format just send me message

jaerdaph
01-30-2009, 02:18 PM
Wow, Mongoose, that's really impressive! I'd love a copy of the FCW - I'll PM you with my email address. Thanks! :) Have some rep.