View Full Version : Does an idea like this sound plausible
10-13-2010, 09:55 AM
In the fantasy world that I'm creating I've decided to give an almost scientific explanation to magick (yes, that's how i spell it in this world). I do this because mainly I've always disliked the cliche of explaining away plotholes and the unexplainable or convenient by simply saying "magick did it". I wanted to run one such idea by the guild as it helps ti explain some of the unnatural landformations on my world. Please not that my understanding of physics and meteorology are not too advanced but I hopefully explained those adequately below.
My world is littered with deposits of a magickal substance known as Magice, so named because it's clear like ice and is actually the natural physically condensed form of magick. One of the world's moons just so happens to be made almost primarily out of magice and being an unpredictable and powerful substance it is not unknown for peices of this moon to be blown off it and fall to the world as meteorites, it happens a few times a century and some pieces the size of mountains have marked the land. But ofcourse at this rate this would see my world turned into a crater-pocked wasteland so I thought of a way to work around that.
Magick can be dividied down into several magickal "winds", one such wind is the wind of "N'Ther" also known as the mirror-shield wind. It is the wind of illusions, deception and actually serves as one fo the best defenses against other magicks, either dampening or reflecting magick like a mirror. Now, this wind exists as form of magickal barrier in the upper atmosphere, somewhere in the area between the mesosphere and thermosphere (pic 1), about where auroras form. Please forgive the simple artwork.
Normal meteorites can pass through this barrier normally but the barrier will resist the passage of Magice meteorites (pic 2). If a Magice meteorite strikes the barrier and it's magickal power is less than that of the barrier it will be shattered and will distergrate harmlessely in the atmosphere, the the dispersal of Magick is visible here and looks like an aurora from below. If the meteorite's power is greater than the power of the barrier it punches through, though not always in one piece which can lead to magickal meteor showers (pic 3).
This is where the physics of magick distorts the physics of reality. When the meteorite punches through the barrier it drags some of it down with it (pic 4). My reasoning for this is that the magice is postively "charged" and the barrier is negative and so should be attracted to the meteorite, like electrons and protons magick is always seeking to balance out it's "charge". This displaced N'ther forms into a form of bubble around the meteorite (pic 5) and follows it down to the surface. The meteorite will naturally start to distintergrate like a normal meteorite but the N'ther bubble will actually slow down this distergration as it seeks to contain the magick within the bubble.
More to come in the next post.
10-13-2010, 10:07 AM
When the meteorite strikes the ground the effect is more magickal than physical. When the magice detonates on impact it releases vast amounts of raw magick, this will make a crater and create a physical shock wave destroying the land around it like a normal meteorite but it will also saturate the land around it with magick. The N'ther bubble will again cancel out some of the effect depending on the power of the meteorite on impact (pic 6). The bubble will also contain flying debris and dust, which will be distergrated by the magickal blast. The impact will appear as a large flash of light, an explosion and then a shockwave but there will be no massive dust cloud effects. Exact magickal effects here would vary greatly and would best be covered in another topic.
Again the N'ther bubble will contain some of the magickal energy being expelled and absorbed some of the physical stress on impact. In the case of smaller, weaker meteorites it will lead to some of the magice remaining intact that will then be embedded into the ground and naturally form into magive deposits. Some of the natural rock in the meteorite would also be preserved, normally leaving a small spire or hill in the centre of the crater (pic 7).
Hopefully I have explained all of this clearly. The explanation came to me when I was trying to explain why my capital was situated on a small mountain surrounded by an almsot perfect ring of mountains.
What do yout think?
10-13-2010, 10:24 AM
Well.. That's pretty cool? =P But it don't explain how magic work - just how it get to you globe? Or did I miss something? ^^'
10-13-2010, 10:46 AM
I'm still debating the origin and actual physics of magick, i suppose its an universal force like gravity and magnetism in that we don't still don't know a lot about it. For this bit I just wanted to focus on the magickal meteorites as they play a substantial part in the history of the culture I'm creating.
10-13-2010, 11:21 AM
Okey :) Do the people of your world use the Magick Deposits on the ends of their staff/wands or something?
10-13-2010, 02:54 PM
Very cool idea. I have always been fascinated with the "origins" of magic as it is so prevalent in the fantasy world. In your explanation the world itself is innately magical which I really like. at some point though you'll have to explain how the "magice" came to be and that will be a very interesting story. :)
10-13-2010, 06:36 PM
I don't really know if Magice has a true "origin", if you concentrate enough magick in one place and place it under the right conditions, like underground, it will begin to bleed into the rock around it and in the right cases it makes Magice. Magice also isn't the only form of magickal rock, it's just the most basic and most abundant, but you still have to search pretty thoroughlky to find sufficient viens enough of it to be used and there are several different typs of magice so finding the type your after can be pretty hit-and-miss; areas around these meteorite strikes are usually in rich supply of the stuff. Magice is also just a small subcategory of the "Arcane Geoforms", natural occuring rock that has magickal power and a myriad of different abilities. As for use, Magice is more used as an energy source as all it seems to do is contain and release magick. I could write a whole textbook on the laws of magick and the properties of arcane geoforms but I won't bore you.
10-13-2010, 06:46 PM
heh, I think a textbook on such things would be very interesting to read, actually.
10-14-2010, 04:08 AM
I guess the question is whether the internal logic of the proposition holds up (at least to cursory inspection) - and it does to me. You could simplify it but just cutting down on the number of meteorites coming from the moon, or have them burn to nothing (as most normal ones do) so you wouldn't then need the atmospheric barrier (whose only function AFAICS is to cut down on the number of meteors)
10-14-2010, 07:02 AM
Normal metoerites can pass through the barrier unharmed, only Magice is resisited and even smaller unopposed magice meteorite can have the same effect and after effects as a nucleur bomb, raw magickal fallout can make life very difficult for future generations. Smaller ones that do pass thorught the barrier do burn up to an extent but, again, the physics of magick sort of distort and disrupt the physics of reality...
11-09-2010, 07:35 AM
Hey guys, sorry to commit Threadomancy, but I have got some more ideas and would like the run it cross anyone who is interested and it seemed like a waste to start a new thread. The inspiration for this idea came from a sort of union of the Asari from the Mass Effect franchise and the depiction of humanoid Kitsune from Japanese folklore; combine the two and throw in a lot of other abstract features (such as mirror like eyes)you get a race of nearly all-female anthropomorphic pseudo-foxes, with I have called the Kijhin. Now this idea is explaining why the race is almost all female and how it has been possible to maintain its population. This is kind of lengthy and maybe a bit too indepth but I’ve put some time into this idea and would like to hear some other people’s thoughts.
Now the Kijhin once existed in antiquity as being a primarily male orientated society, males served as warriors, hunters/farmers and labourers while females were mages, priestesses and artisans. However, around 3000 years before the present date there was an unnatural plague that seemed to only target male Kijhins, it has been widely disputed whether this plague was intentionally created and released by the Wya’Kai (a magickal xenophobic race that seems to want to eliminate all other races). Now while civilisation had not reached a point where it would be impossible to restructure their society and social roles but the Kijhin where left with far too few males to maintain their population. So the Kijhins appealed to Amnarmareena, a local “Aia’Jhil” (Land Spirit) who had reached an almost god-like level of existence and had maintained a benevolent relationship with the Kijhin, particularly the female Kijhin.
Amnarmareena couldn’t just create new lives to replace the lost ones, such a thing would be a violation of nature, but it could introduce a genetic change that would develop across a few generations to alter how life was created. Even if male numbers were regenerated a resurgence of the plague would wipe out the next generation so a drastic change was needed to decrease the need for male Kijhin. Amnarmareena changed Kijhin reproduction from allogamy reproduction to gynogenesis reproduction. The females would no longer rely on male sperm to become pregnant, just the presence of sperm would stimulate a dormant pre-fertilised egg to take root and induce pregnancy. This also meant that female Kijhin could mate with other species that were similar to their own and still bear a fully Kijhin child.
The change did bring about some side effects. First, it was quickly observed that newborn Kijhin were almost always female, essentially genetic copies of their mothers. These newborns were full blooded Kijhin but it was not uncommon for some traits, mainly appearance related traits, to be carried across from the father. For example, a Kijhin born from a Dal (human) father would most likely inherit the gene that caused Dal to be born with black hair and darker skin, or fur. Second, the Kijhins seasonal cycles of “going into heat” became more intense, supposedly to lower inhibitions and encourage couplings that many would find unnatural. Thirdly, it increased fertility rates amongst the Kijhin but changed it so instead of having two or three children during a single pregnancy it was rare to have more than one offspring. Finally fourth, sexual pleasure during the coupling is intensified to increase the chance of the female to experience an orgasm which stimulates the Kijhin to release an ovum.
Also, while females were very common males could still be born, but this was maybe only a few dozen every generation. These males are removed from normal society as soon as they are born and raised separately. It was found that when one these new males mated with other Kijhin their offspring possessed tremendous magickal abilities, whether this has been used by contact with the spirit is still unknown. These newborns are called “Truebloods” are essentially raised to be the next generation of clan leaders, the males also possessed great magickal skill and physical prowess and with traing they would become ledgendary warrior-mages across the lands. Unfortunately a male Kijhin has not yet sired any new males, only females; it hoped that one day a new generation of Trueblood males will be born that can return the Kijhin to their normal reproductive cycles. Until then the females work to try and maintain their population, this leads to many females leaving their homes to seek out potential mates, this has been a commonly accepted practice known simply as the “Seeking”; females will try and find males with traits that would be beneficial to their offspring such as a strength, health and intelligence. This has bred a sense of natural wanderlust in younger Kijhins with many taking to the roads to explore, trade or to find potential mates. Only three things are needed for a good chance of a successful coupling. One, the male needs to be a mammal and, if the rumours are to be believed, they don’t always have to be humanoids. Two, the female has to be willing, forced copulation commonly prevents the release of an ovum. Three, the coupling needs to be anatomically possible, a Kijhin-Giant coupling would probably kill the female, as would any resulting pregnancies.
Another side effect of this new behaviour is the social view on Kijhin, while their honour, artistic skills and martial prowess are well respected and praised many rumours are abound that speak of Kijhins possessing an overly promiscuous nature; this is a misconception brought about by the fact that most people to encounter Kijhin are either warriors or explorers meeting a young Kijhin on their Seeking, as the male already seem to be possessing of desirable traits, couplings during these encounters are not uncommon. However, Kijhins who are not on their Seekings are notoriously hard to bed; Kijhin courtships are long and complicated.
Unfortunately I couldn't create any appropriate photos to demonstrate any of these couplings >:) . Does this idea seem plausible?
11-10-2010, 03:00 PM
Well - (constructive, yet respectful criticism to follow) - from what I am getting here - you are basically suggesting a race that reproduces asexually - but that requires sex , particularly merely arousal and orgasm - to become pregnant. Barring the obvious pleasing advantages of a coupling, to be honest - it would not be necessary at all from a purely evolutionary or biological perspective (if you believe in evolution, or subscribe to it's tenants).
Firstly - over time - nature would select it (sexual coupling) out completely anyway, (like the need for a tail bone - or an appendix), - if for no other reason than the balances of cost versus benefit would kick in. Sex is a very risky business for a lot of different species - let alone humans - and if an entire species doesn't have to really have sex with others in order to reproduce, but instead - only needs arousal and climax - then the potential cost of coupling would outway the benefit. Most social bonds would eventially develope to be formed to aquire mutual benefits in other ways than sexual, romantic, or procreative means - possibly friendship, adoptive familial, religious, political, or cast based relationships would fill the void. Some might even argue that the negation of the need for sexual pair bonding would result in the collapse of a civilization whose roots were founded upon the concept of a nuclear family unit per se. It could be vaguely argued that since there was less reason for intimate interaction - minus that dynamic - the species in question would become more solitary and territorial, and less social - resulting in "devolution".
Secondly - males would eventually become almost entirely extinct, occurring only rarely as an abberration. A more realistic perspective would be if you had a species that would change gender, like some amphibians do - that way you could eliminate the "human" procreative norms of this species - yet still give it a tangible reason for remaining intersocial enough to maintain the stimulus for keeping some kind of civilization going. As an example - the entire history of human civilization can be effectively delineated down to the level of the baser family "clan", or family group structure. If you remove that dynamic - with it's core foundations as being heterosexual procreative pair bonding (biologically / historically), then eventually - like removing a tiny hinge pin that may be seemingly insignificant, but that holds an entire bridge together - you would cause that civilization to - at least ever so slowly and gradually - collapse.
Just as a social scientist might argue that homosexuality - at least currently - may act as a positive, yet statistically tiny defense / check point against overpopulation, the same scientist might say that the total elimination of heterosexual interactions would send us careening into extinction. However - if no pair bonding at all is necessary for a species to survive - then either argument becomes moot.
You are suggesting a species that also interacts with other species sexually in order to facilitate arousal to initiate gynogenesis. Now although instances of interspecies "nooky" in nature has been observed before, and is certainly not unheard of, it is still not a viable concept as an "across the board" trait or norm, because it would violate and endanger a lot of basic survival strategies.
11-10-2010, 04:01 PM
Okay, let me make sure I read this correctly. While the male sperm is not directly responsible for fertilizing the egg, its presence is still required for the female to become pregnant. Additionally, it does not specifically need to be Kijhin sperm, but must be moderately compatible on a species based level.
Assuming that is the correct way to read this (the first part at least), I would think you might want to dig a bit deeper to determine why the sperm must be present in the first place. What is it about the presence of sperm that induces pregnancy? Answering that question might help you better determine the direction society has taken both internally for the Kijhin, and for the world at large in relation to the Kijhin.
After skimming over this a couple of times, I was struck by the idea that the Kihjin females bare a striking resemblance to Succubi in terms of reproduction. Must mate with a compatible species; most offspring being female. In terms of social effects, there are several possibilities dependent on any further restrictions you might want to place on the reproductive process.
For instance, if we assume that the "Truebloods" are born only from a Kihjin/Kihjin matings, it might be reasonable to view males of the Kihjin race as a rare commodity, especially with so few being born. On the one hand, this could lead to a very matriarchal society in which only the highest standing females have access to male Kihjin, treating them as property more so than mates. On the other hand, however, if the males have some way of controlling their "gift" (again, this would be dependent on exactly why male sperm must be present to induce pregnancy), they might very well remain a rare commodity, but might gain their own social status based on how many "Truebloods" they have sired.
I think, on a fundamental level, the idea is fairly sound, but you might want to tweak in a few more details before defining the modern social structure. At this point, there are several ways it might have/could have moved forward, but filling in a few more details might narrow those paths down some for you.
11-10-2010, 07:07 PM
@Terraformer_Author - While your argument is sound you seem to be looking at this from a evolutionary form of view and while from this view their would no real need for a gynogenesis form of reproduction instead be all asexual you have to remember that this was not a natural evolutionary process, but a forced process introduced by a third party to help maintain their population at the time, what would happen in the long run was dependent on whether the males would return. Males are not becoming extinct, an unnatural side effect of the spiritual intervention seems to have caused a stable albeit VERY small population of males to survive, but it wont be until a trueblood male is born that this process will start to return to the norm. I'm keeping the majority population purely female becuase I haven't acutally heard of any mammal species that can change sex in accordance with survival needs, I know reptiles/amphibions and some species of marine life do it but not mammals.
@Greason Wolfe - You mentioned a matriarchal society and if you read the article a little closely you'll note that I said that they had to restructure their society and social roles, so females would then have to take a leadership position, the Kijhin of today are ruled by a council of six trueblooded females, the males would in fact be "reserved" for mating by the aplha females; i see males leading a priveleged but controlled life in Kijhin society.
To both of you, I cannot fully explain why sperm is still needed, the information I found on gynogensis was a bit limited but I can assume it is becuase Kijhin have not yet evolved to be entirely asexual yet, coupling would probably feel more natural to them or that the process still remains so that when the males return it would be easier to return to the reproductive norms. It would also force females to travel in search of healthy mates to produce healthy offspring which can only be good for future generations. Really the more I think about it, its not entirely gynogenesis but a broader of partheogenesis, this will requie more thought, I'll just blame the problems on the spirit.
On a side not I have enjoyed your response, they are thought provoking, helpful and fun. I hope more responses like this will follow when I put up more ideas.
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