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Naeddyr
01-09-2011, 05:10 PM
Hi guys, long time no see.

EDIT: The forum for some reason make the images in my posts smaller, so right-click and view if you want to read the text.

This time my project is a world for a game project I'm working on. Some of you may have played King of Dragon's Pass, set in Glorantha (actually, come to think of it I'm pretty sure someone here must be a big enough Runequest fan to have actually bought the game - hiiii, I'm not a roleplayer, I just like KoDP). It's a classic cow economy simulator from 1999, and everyone should play it at once. I'm trying to figure out how to make a clone using Ren'py, a python-based SDK for the writing of visual novel type games. The setting itself will be Finnic in flavour (in contrast with the Celtic flavour of Glorantha Orlanthi), and I'm working on making a world for it.

It is pretty awesome. Anyhow, the creation myth, based on Finnic mythology; not just the Kalevala, but also bits that Lönnrot changed or edited out, and of course I've changed things around a lot. I'm quoting an old post of mine on another forum:



In the beginning, there was the Sea before the World, and the Sky before the world, and the Demiurge was riding a blue elk upon the water (if you know Finnic mythology, you’ll probably see where this is going). But an enemy of His shot Him down from the elk, and He fell into the water, wounded.
He lay in the water for nine hundred and twenty seven years, until He saw a bird of the sky flying and seeking a nest. He raised His knee from the water, and the bird lay its nest on it. But the eggs were too hot, and the Demiurge moved his leg, and they fell into the water, and the pieces of the eggs became various bits of creation. (Maybe I’ll have a bird of the water, who dredges up stuff from the bottom of the Sea, too…)
The Demiurge formed the Earth from the stuff that was in the eggs, and rose onto land to continue working, and there he met the Sky Smith. The Demiurge tasked the Sky Smith with making a Dome of the Sky for the new world, and the Sky Smith started on it immediately. He forged the World Pillar that lies at the center of the world, and put up the dark night sky on top of it.
The Trickster was fascinated by his work, and came to the Sky Smith to ask if he could help him with it, and the Sky Smith tasked the Trickster to put up stars in the sky. The Trickster started putting stars in the sky with great enthusiasm, though little skill, but then his interest started to vane, and he didn’t put many stars on one side of the Dome of the Sky.
Because of this, the Dome was off balance, and started to wobble on the World Pillar, and the sky started to tip over; when the Trickster saw this, he became panicked and fearful, and he quickly asked help from the spirits of the Above, but no one could help him; then he asked help from the spirits of Below, but they could not help him either, for they did not know how. Then he heard a voice at the bottom of the barrel where the stars had been. It was the voice of a star that told him to take it and hang it in the sky in the place where the Trickster had lost its interest. The Trickster threw the star in that place, and the star grew in size until it became the greatest of all stars in the sky, and the Dome stopped tipping over, and disaster was averted.
When the Sky Smith came and saw what had happened, he was angered, because now he would have to create a haphazard imprompty mechanism to keep the Dome from topping over in the future. He took the Moon, that he had planned to put in the sky to light the nights when the Sun would not be there, and set it rotating around the sky so that the Dome would not wobble, and he took the rest of the stars in the barrel (six all in all), and put them likewise in motion upon the Dome, but in more complex patterns to compensate for the smallest wobble that the Moon could not fix. The Sky Smith also had to adjust the Sun’s orbit in the sky so that it reached North in one part of the year and South in the second. Finally, he attached the Dome fast to the World Pillar with the Pinion Star that was second in brightness only to the moving stars and the Counterweight Star.
Then the Sky Smith kicked the Trickster in the arse.
And to this day, the Dome of the Sky is tipped to one side, even as it rotates around the Pinion Star, as the World Mill at the bottom of the Pillar turns; one side of the Dome is under the water level of the Cosmic Ocean, and one side is above it, and from this gap there comes light from the outside chaos that lits up the rim of the world, and creates the the months of day and night at the farthest Northern and Southern reaches.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/wipcosmos2.png
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/clim.png

The Ship of the Sun moves over the world from the East to the West each day, rising from the sea and descending into it (which creates clouds). From the ship, the Sun God casts out light that falls down to the Earth like rainfall, but it is easier to throw further in alignment with the keel, so the light doesn’t reach as far at the sides. In the Northern Summer, the Ship travels above the North, and in the Northern Winter it is South. Coupled with the gap in the horizon, this means that the farthest north and south (the “poles”) have a day(summer) and night(winter) months long. The sun rises and sets in 12 hours, but the light of the gap remains. Conversely, in the winter, the sun is so far away that the falling light doesn’t reach, and it resembles a bright, moving star.

In the East, the Sun rises, so the mornings are always warmer than the evenings. In the Eastern summer, in the farthest east (the “East pole”), there is no night, and the mornings are hot and the evenings are warm. In the West (at the West Pole), the sun sets, so the converse is true: it is the evening that is hot, and the morning that is cool. Likewise, in the summer, there is no night; and, as with the East Pole, the “Winter” is cooler, but the day/night cycle is 12 hours/12 hours. At the East and West Pole, in the Autumn the time of no-sun (12 hours) will get darker and darker, until there is true deep night for a few months in the winter. In the spring, the dark of the night will start to become lighter, until you can’t tell the difference between day and night.

In the center of the world the day is always twelve and twelve hours, and there isn’t much of a change in seasons; it gets a bit hotter twice a year, when the East and West are in their Summer/Winter period, and the Sun moves to its absolute zenith on top of the center.

If you move north or south from the center, you get seasons a bit more familiar to our own experiences: between the center and the North and South poles, there is a seasonal difference due to the distance of the Sun combined with a lesser effect from the gap in the horizon, which lengthens the day a bit due to some magic I still haven’t fudged into here. Let’s say the combined effect of sun and chaos light is tremendously effective, and that as the Sun moves closer to the horizon when it rises from the depths of the Cosmic Ocean, the light from the gap also becomes stronger, which lengthens the day marginally in areas that aren’t that close to the Rim… Something like that.

EDIT: Or maybe it takes longer for the sunlight to evaporate, because there’s more of it than usual… Yes, this makes the best sense. :EDIT

ERRATA:
Note that Sunlight and the light that comes from the outerworld is different from our light. It’s much heavier, for one, and will have a kindasorta ballistic trajectory. Can’t help it, really, and it’s all in good fun so no harm done.

Yes, I have mixed up the compass points. I noticed that I have them in the wrong order in my charts (I mean, obviously the sun rises on the LEFT, right, and north is UP, right? So obviously East is left and north is up…), and, eh, I can’t be arsed to change it. Take it as another sign of otherworldliness.

Naturally, the Moon rotates around the dome of the sky; which means only the dome of the sky, and not beneath the Earth, etc. so unlike our very own Newtonian companion. I’ll have to come up with a good myth for its phases, etc. The planets are likewise attached to the dome; maybe their “orbits” will be completely unpredictable?

Disclaimer:
This is just fantasy. It only has to make Common Sense, which is completely different from Actually Making Real Sense. Verissimilitude is the key here, not whether it makes sense in our physical framework, etc. Gravity, for example, will be completely unexplained: I do not know a single ancient myth that attempts to explain its origin. It’s one of those “so obvious in hindsight why haven’t I even thought about why it exists” things that only philosophers at level 12 and above can even think about.

EDIT:

further disclaimer the thing represented here is the physical truth: this is not really a globular Earth with a mythical explanation for seasons, no, this is a project for making a flatworld that makes at least some sense while resembling Earth as much as possible with only superficial differences (like, who cares about the orbits of sky objects? and some sort of seasons and stuff to create interesting geography should be enough, etc..)

I've since deviced a simple Finnish-based codelang (some sound-changes that turns Finnish text into something that doesn't look Finnish: Väinämöinen to Wainmaine, Väinätär to Waindal, Maailma to Māinm, etc. Some other things I've since thought of: tides work because the weight of the moon tips the world to one side, and the oceans rush downwards. If you have a big lake, you can actually measure a tiny "tide" on one side of the lake, and an ebb on the other. It's science. Other things is that ocean currents are created by the maelstrom at the center of the world (through which the World Pillar rises), which sucks in water from the oceans, sends it to the Underworld, where the oceans fall "down" the upside-down world into the ocean on *that* side, where it ends up back into the corporeal ocean. some currents are caused by the Sky Dome's movement through the water, etc.

And apropos some images:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/mainm-base.pnghttp://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/oceancurrents-1.pnghttp://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/moooons.png

The rough shape of the world, ideas for ocean currents (red arrows show warm water going towards cold areas, cold arrows show cold water going towards warm areas, you know the drill), and without an insanely expensive fluid dynamics simulation this is the best we'll get. Haven't figured out winds yet. Apropos to that, navigation on this world is a lot easier: the sky rotates only once a year (not once a day, like ours), so taking bearing and all that stuff is easy. Depending on the time of the year, you can just look up and check out what star is right above you, and voila, you have some kind of coordinates, and even if you don't know what specific time of the year it is, you can at least tell how far you are from the center of the world.

The "tectonics" of the world are basically just ad hoc, but inspired by the idea that the world was shaped like it was on a potter wheel. mountain-ranges and islands that "circle" the center, if you see what I mean.

Because the Moon is an actual object up in the sky, and not a small planetoid orbiting another, larger one, with a huge firey ball of incandescent gas lighting both, it actually has a "shadow" smaller than itself: thus, you get a moon that is *really* pointy, and whose new moon is basically a circle. need to come up with a good mythical explanation for that.

Some mountain ranges are formed by the corpses of dead giants or gods. The game is taking place one one: most specifically, a valley that is formed by the gap between two fingers. I'm hoping to incorporate underground caverns and other stuff like that, but it's still long off.

Ascension
01-09-2011, 08:07 PM
Good to see you posting again. I always like your work very much.

Naeddyr
01-10-2011, 08:21 AM
Thanks, Ascension. Let's see how this goes.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/mainm-climatesandmountains.png

A preliminary look at mountain ranges (the black sprinkles) and pseudo-climes. I have no idea what to do with the winds. Maybe I'll just put down four mountains, each with its own wind god... The West Wind would sit smack dab in the middle of that desert, and blow everything away because he's cross with the Sun for eating all his cookies or something idno.

Here's also a size-comparison:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/mainm-sizecomparison.png

The land mass of Māinm is roughly the same size as Eurasia and Africa combined (85-90 million square kilometers). The map of Eurafrasia above is in Azimuthal equal area, so that you get a rough idea of areas. The flat world map is of course just.... Flat, because it doesn't need a projection (and is naturally equal area, too).

The diameter of the world (= Sky Dome, in this context) is eh, 18000 kilometers. Around 36 percent of the area is land, rest is corporeal ocean. Just by total coincidence, if the area of one Earth hemisphere was turned into a circle, that circle would have a diameter of 18000 kilometers.

Naeddyr
01-11-2011, 08:00 AM
Sorry about the double post, here's a small update.

32398
South is up, east is left, north is down, west is right.

Here's a bit more elaboration on the climates (and some fixing of the geography that didn't look exactly right for aesthetic reasons). Because Māinm is a stationary flatworld (i.e. it doesn't rotate; the Sky Dome does rotate, but only once a year), there are no coriolis forces. The Sun warms the interior "equator", the central line from the East pole to the West Pole more than the north and south, so winds tend to move towards the equator, or maybe rather a center defined by the Sun's position in the sky and some lag. For simplicity I assume that there's a low pressure band on the equator, which might shift a bit, but is fairly long.

The Sun's orbit moves during the year, like mentioned: it shifts towards the north, then center, then south, then center again, depending on the tilting of the sky dome (which raises the edge so much that primordial light gets in from the Outside and causes lit summer evenings and nights sans the presence of the Sun). The world is fairly wet, and dryness is caused by south-west mountain ranges that cast a rain-shadow towards the center.

The big exception, for which I tried to come up with a good rationalisation, is the obligatory Huge Desert. On Māinm it lies on the East coast, where it faces the Sun as it rises. Why is it desert, while the western islands are fairly wet? Here comes to the excuse: it's because the ocean around where the Sun rises is really, really hot, and forms a constant low pressure area with which the east coast desert areas can't compete with: the winds in this area are characterised as seaward winds, and the northerly and southerly winds that would otherwise bring in rain are exhausted by the two conveniently placed mountain ranges. There are occasionally westerlies bringing rain, but usually they fall on the hills and the dry plains on the way. I should add more mountains there, though, I guess.

Why is the Ocean there really hot? Well, that's a result of the bizarre origin of Māinm ocean currents caused by Maelstrom at the center of the world (not the winds, though because they're usually centerwards, they help in the west while maybe hindering a bit in the east) . Like in my earlier posts, water is pulled towards the center, but there is no obvious route from the East coast towards the center, so the currents have to circle around the continent, which is why the east is generally hotter than the west, which is in turn cooled by the cold currents coming from the south and north.

I got a bit lucky here in that with a bit of handwaving and tactical rationalisation my original ad-hoc plans seem to have gelled together quite well.

Naeddyr
01-12-2011, 08:02 AM
someone else post in this thread, i'm embarrassing myself with these self-bumps

Anyhow, here's a small digression to typography, writing and stuff. For the meta-setting of this game/world, I've been devising small flavour points: one of them is the typography associated with them. Typographical variation is a cheap way to create exoticism or otherness, or just give something a particular vibe: like, say, if you made a Britannic style story or game, you might use Uncial or Insular (for Celtic) or Old English typographic styles, with yoghs and dots. For this stuff, I decided to create a small variant of Latin, with which I intend to write names in the codelang deviced for this, and other language snippets other than Meta-English. As a base for the design I raster-edited on glyph samples from a Open Font License font named Sorts Mill Goudy by Barry Schwartz:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/alternativealphabet.png
The plan is to take the modifications here, turn it into a separate font to use in the game (alongside standard SM Goudy, though the game SDK I'm using also handles bitmap fonts, which would be simpler), and license it with credits and all that stuff in the Open Font License.

For those who don't know, /ŋ/ means the velar nasal sound you get at the end of "sing". The n-with-a-hook is a letter for that sound (in IPA, and in the above Latin variant because ŋ is a bitch to invent a new letter for, as you can see). The letter that looks like n-with-a-j and a dot is just an abbreviation/ligature standing for "ja", 'and' in the codelang of the game (which is, as said, based on modern Finnish (ok, I lie, Old Finnish - I presume that most sound-changes that cause irregularity in modern Finnish do not take place) with a set of sound-changes that turns modern Finnish into something that doesn't resemble modern Finnish, because this is a really simple way to create a flavour-language without actually doing any proper conlanging (and which anyone with basic knowledge of Finnic diachronical linguistics and etymology can easily use). I've also played with the thought of doing an English-based codelang. We'll see how that goes. Maybe I'll do something with reversed-English, plus some sound-changes to fudge things.

Anyhow, today I decided to play around with my ink-pen in lieu of anything productive (I'm suffering from a slight cold), and decided to design a miniscule style to write this in.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/IM000307.jpg
Apologies for the unfocused shot, I can't seem to get any decent pictures with my old camera.
Still a work on progress, though I'm fairly happy with the look. It's old-fashioned looking, but not in any particular sense of old-fashioned: a mixture of different styles, some original strokes, and all in all it looks quite suitable for use on a fantasy map. I might try to digitise this to use on my map.

Lastly, a small update with further elaboration on climes and ocean currents.
32437

Gidde
01-12-2011, 11:30 AM
Haven't been commenting but I've been following the progress on this and it's coming along nicely!!

I know that lonely feeling all too well, lol. ;) Please keep up the good work, I'm very intrigued by the development here and enjoying watching it take shape. I love projects like this.

jtougas
01-12-2011, 11:41 AM
WOW :) thats a LOT of information. Great job pulling that all together and I'm eagerly watching this thread :)

Naeddyr
01-12-2011, 12:41 PM
Thanks, blokes and blokettes! Yeah, I'm pretty happy about how this is coming together. Don't be afraid to offer suggestion, criticism or ask questions about stuff! Also, if there's anyone who's an expert in flat world fluid dynamics, please. PLEASE.

Jaxilon
01-12-2011, 12:56 PM
Sorry about not posting any feedback. You have a ton of information here that I, at least up to this point, have never really bothered to work out for anything I have done. There are a few around here who get into all the water flows and air currents. I seem to want to just get into the imagery. Maybe one day this will get into my blood. I think it's impressive when people get into this much explanation for why their world is the way it is. So, hats off to ya, keep up the great work.

I understand how it can kind of get to you when you post and there is nothing but silence out there. You begin to wonder if it just sucks so much that nobody cares to reply. At least that's what I always start to think when the silence stretches on. In this case, it doesn't suck, I just don't feel qualified to add anything.

Naeddyr
01-12-2011, 01:15 PM
I know what you mean about those guys who do ocean currents and wind patterns. I'm not really one of them, I just play one on tv.

Gidde
01-12-2011, 01:21 PM
In this case, it doesn't suck, I just don't feel qualified to add anything.

Well said! This is how i feel about most threads that I don't post on. I try hard to only post when I have something intelligent to add (because I can be a little loquacious if I don't watch myself). ;)

Oh, and Naeddyr .... I think your work on your fluid dynamics is more than sufficient. The neat thing about flatworlds is that they *depend* on divine intervention, which gives a really handy explanation for pretty much however you want it to work.

Naeddyr
01-12-2011, 05:41 PM
32447

Smaller version from a (roughly) 4600x4600 original. Tarting up the coastlines to look more natural, and I must say, my technique for scraggling keeps on improving. Look at those fjords!

Naeddyr
01-13-2011, 03:54 PM
32485

Worked on rivers today, mostly. Up until now most of this map has been mainly manual work, but the river tapering was done with the Inkscape tapering river trick. Tried to then trace *those* by hand, but it was too much damn work for too little payoff, so I mostly just cleaned them from the vector artifacts and combined them with the coastline.

Also modified those fjords. I am unsatisfied with the south for some reason, but I can't pin point why. Maybe it's the perspective.

Naeddyr
01-14-2011, 03:13 PM
32515

Today I've mostly concerned myself with ornamentation: the coast line sea patterns, the ocean colour patterns, and graticules. Also cleaned up stuff.

The coastline seat pattern is a conservative, but still good-looking, Tolkienian-style parallel-lines pattern. To add variation, the outermost waves are dotted lines. Done with GIMP; I used to do this with Inkscape, but I actually think GIMP's patterns (selection to pattern and pattern to selection) are a bit less power-hungry than the ones in inkscape, and it turned out all right.

The ocean colour patterns... This took several variants to get right. I decided to not go with the pattern I created for the Ysi Special Edition Soho Go Go Let Us Fight The British In Manhattan Exhibition version, but instead tried to come up with a new one, or maybe not do one at all. In the end, after several patterns that weren't suitable (including a Japanese cloth pattern using semi-circles and a twirly one, etc.), I settled on this basic pattern I took inspiration on from the internet. I'll have to clean up the edges, which makes a tremendous difference: if you look at the middle and right-side ocean pattern borders, you'll notice a definite difference (and improvement) with the ones I've left unfudged. The layer uses a transparency mask, so it's easy to edit what parts of the pattern shouldn't show.

The graticules: there are two of them, because this is a flat world, so a square graticule is 100% appropriate: but, it's also a world with a definite center, which makes also polar coordinates 100% appropriate, so this 200% appropriate.

I'm also trying out a mountain style.

I also came up with a plan to add zodiac-style signs on the edges of map: a star map showing navigation stars, showing a particular season (probably Eastern (left) summer)).

Gidde
01-14-2011, 03:56 PM
Cool way to do the graticules, I'm watching this with interest while I do my flat world! :)

Naeddyr
01-15-2011, 01:03 PM
32564

Mountain style. Today (and part of yesterday) I've wrestled with what mountain style to use. This is a low-tech fantasy map, so isometric mountains are quite simple to settle on, but there are several variants of them. For my last map, I went with a style that was supposed to evoke mountain chains:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/Maps/preview.png

This time, I decided to go with the Grand Daddy of fantastic cartography: Tolkienian style shading, using an ink-pen (equivalent). Tolkienian mountains are extremely simple to draw: start with the mountains or hills in the foreground, and use an inkpen to draw the basic outline. This already gives it a shadow, depending on the angle of the pen. Then add width to the shadows at the bases (or for an even simpler style, just do the one stroke). The mountain and shade all in one.

Gidde
01-15-2011, 01:40 PM
I like the shading. Seems a little symbol-heavy, but maybe that's just because they're the only symbols on the map so far.

Naeddyr
01-15-2011, 01:54 PM
I'm going to colorize them an appropriate color in the end, which will make them stand out less. For desert mountains, a yellow or red color would fit.

jbgibson
01-15-2011, 02:53 PM
I'll post just as encouragement - I like what you're doing ! Your world-building hangs together so well I haven't seen anything I would say "why don't you try this instead" on, hence I've held my tongue. I'm with Gidde in a tendency to wax verbose.... I get all my exercise running off at the mouth and jumping at conclusions :-). Both the strings-of-ridges and the field-of-bumps mountain styles look good; your Tolkienesque choice will no doubt work well for Māinm.

Naeddyr
01-15-2011, 05:15 PM
As always, thanks for the comments, here's a quick update or just a quick does-this-make-me-look-fat check before I go to bed.

32579

As I said earlier, Tolkienian style mountains. Those stand out a lot if they're completely black, though, and I'd have to go with much smaller shadows, so I've thought of coloring the mountains by climate. At least three colors: Red for the dry mountains on the rain-shadow side, towards the desert, green for the rain-side, and blue for cold and icy glacier mountains. Possibly black for generic cold mountains.

I haven't yet actually figured out how to make it go colder the higher up you are. That is not common sense, after all: everyone knows warm things go up, and the Sun is up there, what do you mean it's cold (there actually is a bit of atmosphere up there with it's own -sphere monicker that is quite warm, but mostly it gets colder)? Either I'll have to add a small atmosphere that only covers the bottom of the world (the sky dome is 4500 kilometers high: on Earth, space is defined to start at around a hundred), which follows gas and pressure laws, or I'll have to come up with something completely outlandish and fascinating. The atmosphere would do the trick, though. Maybe an ether of the spheres, that happens to be cold. Hmmm.

EDIT:

God, this whole style turned out so Tolkienian. Tolkienian coast-lines, tolkienian mountains... Even the latin script I made is so Tolkienian.

There is no other explanation to it.

Tolkien was a genius.

EDIT:

Well, the exact exact style isn't tolkienian per se, now that I googled it again. There is a fan-made map of Middle-Earth that had this style of mountain, but the usual maps don't have this kind of single-ling mountains, but proper shading. The coast-lines are totally Tolkienian, though. Well, as much as something as basic as it can be.

Naeddyr
01-16-2011, 06:22 AM
To make the coastline slightly less generic slash tolkienian, I'm trying out different patterns. Using the line-to-pattern or whatever it was called in Inkscape (same as the one used for the tapering river trick, except this time with Repeating (Stretched) and the original figure orthogonal to the orientation in river tapering), etc. then doing lots of selection-to-pattern-to-selection stuff in GIMP, I got this. Still a few glitches I'll fix later, but I think it looks quite ok when it's toned down with a colour instead of using heavy black.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/newcoastline.png

Naeddyr
01-16-2011, 02:06 PM
32595

Tiny update. Man, doing these mountains will take a while, but that is the price I pay for ~art~.

if i do not come back

send someone who is a specialist in wrist conditions

Gidde
01-16-2011, 02:17 PM
I hear ya. The last time I did the amount of hand-drawn mountains you're looking at, it took me months!

Naeddyr
01-16-2011, 02:19 PM
I hear ya. The last time I did the amount of hand-drawn mountains you're looking at, it took me months!

Man, months. I can't do that, I have to do now, quickly, before I lose interest and flit towards another project or passtime. The only project I've been able to really return to is my Magnum Opus Finnish Morpoglyphic writing system.

Gidde
01-16-2011, 08:14 PM
Haha, well good luck and keep that momentum then :)

RobA
01-16-2011, 09:16 PM
Naeddyr-

How is inkscape performing when you start getting that many separate items?

-Rob A>

Naeddyr
01-17-2011, 05:48 AM
Yeah, I'm not using much Inkscape anymore, this is almost completely done in GIMP. When I did the wavy pattern (the single wave, not the subsequent lines), that was in Inkscape, and working with it, even on an empty image with only the coastline with around 2000+ nodes (simplified) was no fun. I suspect it's the paths effects application that was just super slow, and other stuff would work faster if I just left it alone, but this time I've just imported most everything right back into GIMP, where I do most of the vectory stuff I used to do in Inkscape that involve irregular shapes (like the coastline) with selections and patterns. The graticule EDIT: and rivers :EDIT are, naturally, made in inkscape (should work on that more), and small stuff like the deep ocean texture patterns, but really nothing else; I'm even doing the calligraphy in GIMP, now that I've figured out the ink tool.

Earlier yesterday, I got a really annoying Inkscape-doesn't-actually-close-but-churns-on-in-the-background-leaking-huge-amounts-of-memory when I tested out some small effect-to-path stuffs on a small test image, then closed the program and opened GIMP. The whole system became rather unresponsive (on Ubuntu 10.10), though not so unresponsive I couldn't open the system monitor tool (which took a minute or two to load) and finally pinpoint the culprit.

EDIT:

Of course, this means the map itself is not super-scalable, but it's 4500x4500 in size, and I think that might be enough for now.

Naeddyr
01-17-2011, 05:17 PM
32638

An early demo of what style I might go for: coloured mountains denoting whether they're rain shadows (red and yellow) or wet, plus some temperature gradients. Not at all sure about the colour scheme, and this is just a preliminary test. The map has gone through my paperisation script (which can be found on my dA), but, as always, I'm unhappy with the result. Size is 50% of original working copy.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there would probably also be a lot of westerly winds, due to the desert and the ocean being so hot.

Naeddyr
01-18-2011, 05:23 PM
32683

Finally, the mountains are done.

Here's also a showcase of the main colouring of the mountains: red for dry and hot, brown/yellow for dry and temperate, purple/violet for dry and cold, deep green for wet and hot, a lighter yellower green for wet and temperate, and deep blue for wet and cold. EDIT: Might also make the plants follow this scheme.:TIDE

Also tried out an agening style, and I came up with a few new techniques. Still not happy with my paper texture, that most elusive of things.

Please, give comments on the colouring and aging. EDIT: Also, please opinions or tips on how to do glacier/permaice. :TIDE

vman3force
01-18-2011, 07:35 PM
This is really becoming its own style of map - ive never seen mountains represented like that before. Keep up the good work.

vman3force
01-18-2011, 07:39 PM
One thing: the wave pattern around the smallest islands read as whirlpools to me the first time i looked. Which makes me a little dissapointed now that i realize theyre just islands LOL.

Naeddyr
01-18-2011, 07:42 PM
This is really becoming its own style of map - ive never seen mountains represented like that before. Keep up the good work.

This is actually a pretty common style! One of my friends on another channel keeps on :V TOLKIEN TOLKIEN just to annoy me (screeeeew youuuu pthag i know you're not reading this but JUST IN CASE), but it's actually simpler than the style used in official LoTR and Hobbit and Silmarillion maps (which are the same in substance, though their shading is not as simple). But, for example, there's a fanmade LoTR map online where there's a very similar method of making mountains as here (and where I basically cribbed the basics from this time around -- "Oh yeah, I could do it like this"), but the shading style is slightly different: http://3rin.gs/

EDIT:

There is a whirpool. At the center of the woooooorld it's huge, and causes all ocean current patterns.

vman3force
01-18-2011, 09:57 PM
In regards to the mountains, I was rather referring to the climate color coding; i haven't seen that before anywhere.

Naeddyr
01-19-2011, 05:53 PM
32712

Today I finished up the graticule graphics. I do not think I'll add any numbering this time around: it's rather pointless for now.

You might notice the ellipse, and the line at the middle with the irregular intervals. These lines represent the Sun's path over the surface, as seen from the above. The semiellipses depict the Sun's path during the Northern and Southern Summer solstices respectively, and the middle line the two equinoxes, so you can also tell the area of the map where you can actually have the Sun in your zenith (which happens twice a year). The intervals show the hours: if you divide the day into twelve or was it twenty four hours, the Sun will be at tick x by hour x, because its path is circular: it will take a long while to get up, so it'll spend a relatively long period on the eastern and western edges of the map. I hope I got the logic of the interval lengths right, but eh, it's just decoration. There are also degree intervals on the outer edge, and circles depicting the distance from the center.

I also started thinking about populating the map with people. There are small symbols on the map, which either represent big cities, or capitals, or something. The thing is that the scale of this map is huge, and real-world countries, especially in more fragmentary historical times, are tiny things. I refer you back to the map on page one with the size comparison between the Western Hemisphere and Māinm. Also you may notice my old nemesis, the swastika, who always tends to crop up when I do anything graphical or designy. This time it's not that swastikaish, and one person I showed it said it didn't look like one, so I thought, eh, whatever. I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.

Here are some things that are still left undone or in planning stages:


Flora
People (the particularly mundane fantasy races I've cooked up for this: people with four fingers! People with tails! People who don't have wisdom teeth!)
Words and names
A circle of stars (like a zodiac) on the outer rim of the map, for basic navigation
A scale
Ice floats
Maybe the ocean currents
Borders
Cities
I also need to make more codelangs for this map, probably just deriving them all from Archaized Finnish, because that would be consistent and simple, and maybe one English codelang where I just flip words backwards and go on from that
All the other stuff that comes outside the map

Gidde
01-19-2011, 07:21 PM
This looks awesome, Naeddyr! It's amazing to me how different two circular flat worlds can be. You've totally outpaced mine though!

Naeddyr
01-20-2011, 03:50 PM
32739

A preview sans weathering, running my paperisation script always takes a long time and I can't be arsed to do any more modifications on its output that I'm going to discard anyhow.

Some more city/state symbols, borders and border shading, and the big one: stars.

Because the sky dome of Māinm rotates around the world only once per year, using it for navigation is about two thousand million billion trillion gazilligoogoolplexthousandpousandultrillion times easier. Depending on the date, superimpose a sky map on top of your ordinary map, then do some calcumulations with the stars regarding their relative positions on the dome, or just take direct bearing from stars close to the rim. EDIT: The star map is then actually a projected hemisphere: in this case, azimuthal orthographic :TIDE

They're a bit unnoticeable right now, I'll color them for the next one.

jtougas
01-20-2011, 04:15 PM
This gets cooler every time I look at it :)

Naeddyr
01-20-2011, 04:36 PM
This gets cooler every time I look at it :)

!!

Quick!

Look at it more!!

vman3force
01-21-2011, 05:29 PM
Its amazing how much information youre managing to cram into one map. Are you worried at all about it getting too crowded with stuff, such that it becomes difficult to read?

Naeddyr
01-21-2011, 06:22 PM
Its amazing how much information youre managing to cram into one map. Are you worried at all about it getting too crowded with stuff, such that it becomes difficult to read?


Not at all: I'm worried that I'll have large swathes of blank left over when I'm done.

I'm thinking about forests and other flora: here's a small possible way to do it, similar to my last map. Sparsely set trees. This time, more of a background element than anything, much like the wave pattern on the seas. But, it is also very busy.

I have trouble of coming up with any really good alternatives. Just drawing a line around forests? Colouring? Should this just be a political map?

http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32766&stc=1&d=1295652011

Gidde
01-21-2011, 06:43 PM
I don't think it looks too busy. I love this tree method. It looks completely natural with the rest of the map, and has the added bonus of not interfering with the labels/information. I'd say go with it.

vman3force
01-21-2011, 07:02 PM
the tree icons seem to work nicely with the mountain style- i'd say maybe adding a light toned ground of the same color could work too, but it looks pretty good as is.

Naeddyr
01-25-2011, 05:58 PM
32893

A big preview.

What do you guys think of the paper texture? I am slowly inching my way towards something I'm happy with.

The writing is hand-lettering, with the tablet. I have horrible hand-writing.

thinking about how to write all of this. i can only write straight lines, and then post-process them with rotate and scale. gaah.

Gidde
01-25-2011, 06:51 PM
I don't think you have horrible handwriting, the lettering looks great! The paper texture ... well, I think it looks more like leather or plaster than paper. There's no fiber-type feel to it.

vman3force
01-25-2011, 07:16 PM
how papery does it need to feel? I like this texture because its pretty unobtrusive, but Gidde's right about it feeling more like plaster.
Everything being in color helps to clear up most of the confusion i was having before with the different chart overlays, so thats good.
Whats the plan for the four triangular corner pieces?

Naeddyr
01-26-2011, 04:52 AM
how papery does it need to feel? I like this texture because its pretty unobtrusive, but Gidde's right about it feeling more like plaster.
Everything being in color helps to clear up most of the confusion i was having before with the different chart overlays, so thats good.
Whats the plan for the four triangular corner pieces?


Maybe i'll just say it's parchment.

The triangular pieces will get at least a cosmic model showing the world from the side, and possibly other mythological realms beyond the corporeal world. Maybe a star map in a different projection and star names.

EDIT:

I'll describe how I got this particular texture. First I create a white layer on which I use some noise (Hurl, which randomises pixels: "remove alpha channel" and desaturation and you have a pretty random layer, there's probably a better way to do this), then I use GIMPressionist to create a random furry texture. This is then used as the base of a (duplicated layer) emboss, which gives a bit of a third dimension. I really thought it looked quite papery...

Naeddyr
01-26-2011, 10:47 AM
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/naeddyr/newscript.png

Someone pointed out (somewhat rightly, but not horribly rightly, just kinda sorta) that the combination of mountains and a hand-written script with uncial and other old-timey features might be construed as a bit too tolkienian (not that Christopher Tolkiens map used anything but small caps and grumble grumble damn movie tie ins), so I decided to go full throttle and device a much more exotic latin script than what I previously used.

Gidde
01-26-2011, 12:12 PM
For the record, I didn't think it looked too Tolkienesque (and I share your grumbles). On the phone so I can't look at the new script properly, but from what I can see it looks really cool.

Sapiento
02-01-2011, 10:22 AM
Somehow I had missed this thread.
Excellent looking map, Naeddyr, with a lot of detail.

Naeddyr
02-01-2011, 10:46 AM
Somehow I had missed this thread.
Excellent looking map, Naeddyr, with a lot of detail.

Thanks, Sapiento. :) I'm stuck in a bit of a rut right now (my computer was broken this past weekend because my brother's motherboard borked, and when I tried out what parts were broked in the new setup we bought by testing them in my own computer I broke it too...) because I stopped working on it, and it's hard to get up back to speed. Also, I am unsatisfied with the methods available to me re: lettering. I need a printer/scanner.

Naeddyr
02-05-2011, 06:53 PM
Finally, a bit more inkscaping, and I'm back in the game.

I've put some stuff in the empty corners: small maps o the cosmology, how seasons function, and how tides work.

The next step, I guess, is... doing artsy fartsy stuff.

And text.

33211

Ascension
02-05-2011, 06:58 PM
Wow, there's a lot going on there. Lots of lil stuff to look at and go, "cool". Your land has a soft yellow color to it so I was thinking if you did that with the ocean (a slight blue) and then turned down the opacity of those lil wavy things.

Naeddyr
02-05-2011, 07:32 PM
Wow, there's a lot going on there. Lots of lil stuff to look at and go, "cool". Your land has a soft yellow color to it so I was thinking if you did that with the ocean (a slight blue) and then turned down the opacity of those lil wavy things.

I'll probably do something like that, yeah.

Naeddyr
02-22-2011, 10:36 AM
Welp, I think I'll call it done.

Added the final touches: lettering and small pictures. Didn't fill up the whole map, because I got bored and I just couldn't think of anything more.

33789

vman3force
03-26-2011, 06:09 PM
This looks great man. Wish I could read it.

mearrin69
03-26-2011, 06:56 PM
Yeah. No idea what it says (what is that script anyway?) but it looks awesome. Have some rep!
M

Ryan K
03-27-2011, 10:12 PM
That is just beautiful, mate! I could pore over this for hours!

Duly repped!