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spiderfate
01-19-2011, 04:54 PM
Thumbnailed image.

jtougas
01-19-2011, 04:59 PM
Looks like a good start .I'm working on something similar in Sketchup. :)

spiderfate
01-19-2011, 05:23 PM
im using photoshop cs5 portable. my bottum layer is the 3d graph paper and im using the line tool to draw it.

Gidde
01-19-2011, 08:18 PM
Looks cool, spiderfate! Have some rep for that!

spiderfate
01-19-2011, 10:00 PM
Thumbnailed image

spiderfate
01-20-2011, 01:21 AM
im a little stumped now on how to draw waterfalls. im gonna sleep on it. probably add some texture to the water and grasslands next.
http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32725&d=1295500806

jtougas
01-20-2011, 05:13 PM
That looks really good !! :)

spiderfate
01-20-2011, 08:54 PM
ok i need some advice about the grass layer and the waterfall.

http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32743&d=1295571173

Gidde
01-20-2011, 09:11 PM
The grass could do with some miniaturizing; right now it looks like it's the same height as the buildings. The waterfall looks pretty good to me though, wiser folks will have to advise on that one.

spiderfate
01-20-2011, 09:15 PM
im dropping the grass completely i think. its a little to catoony. water fall seems to be the opposite, its a little to photography realistic for the rest of the map ....perhaps

Ascension
01-20-2011, 10:06 PM
Waterfall looks fine; keep it until some more of the map gets fleshed out and if the style doesn't match then scrap it. Personally, I like it, though. The grass could be that elephant grass which comes up to the shoulder of an elephant. :) Otherwise, yeah, it's too tall. For now, just go with some green color and some splotches of other colors like tan, light green, etc. I'd hate to suggest using a pattern, I think they mess things up when mixed with hand-drawn elements, but if you could find a good one then, by all means, use it.

spiderfate
01-21-2011, 02:53 PM
added a bridge and a dock

http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32751&d=1295635927

Ascension
01-21-2011, 05:00 PM
Ya know what...I think that if you just added a couple of trees and some bushes you might not need all that much of a detailed grass. What you have so far looks pretty nice in terms of color.

spiderfate
01-21-2011, 09:14 PM
nearing the end, im not feeling the building just yet,

http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32774&d=1295658576

Gluhoded
01-22-2011, 09:55 AM
Looking great so far!

the only thing that makes this look less "together" is the contrast between the very percise style of the buildings, bridge and docks, with the more blurry/cartoony background.
maybe more vegetation would smooth out the difference.

good luck & keep going! This thing'll look amazing when it's finished! :-]

spiderfate
01-23-2011, 07:26 PM
im kinda stumped, not sure where to go from here.

http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32821&d=1295824939

Gidde
01-23-2011, 08:52 PM
Just my humble opinion, but I think the straight-edges of the buildings take away from the overall look. You have these beautiful hand-drawn cliffs and hand-colored water, and then the buildings kinda look pasted on with a computer. I think the scene would look even better than it already does if you went over the buildings' lines by hand and took out the razor-straight lines.

Other than that, you could also add farm fields, a couple trees here and there, etc.

PS -- just scrolled up and saw that Gluhoded had basically already mentioned that part about the buildings. So, I suppose I second his statement :)

jfrazierjr
01-23-2011, 08:59 PM
Hard to explain, but the part where the bridge is needs line work. As it stands now, it has an optical illusion that it the bottom of a cliff instead of a cut our gorge.

ravells
01-24-2011, 10:08 AM
Looking great, spiderfate!

Could you use the thumbnailer function please as the page takes an age to load with the images at full size?

Cheers!

spiderfate
01-24-2011, 11:50 AM
Hard to explain, but the part where the bridge is needs line work. As it stands now, it has an optical illusion that it the bottom of a cliff instead of a cut our gorge.

man i hate you. i didnt even see that until you mentioned it . lol. you mentioned "linework". what is that?

spiderfate
01-24-2011, 11:51 AM
Looking great, spiderfate!

Could you use the thumbnailer function please as the page takes an age to load with the images at full size?

Cheers!

thumbnailer? i look into it.

jfrazierjr
01-24-2011, 12:19 PM
Well, in this context, I am talking about outlines. Typically, outlines help the eye delineate changes in structure, shape, or height in this case. For example, the group of houses directly SW of the bridge. You have a solid line W/NW which separates the "Lower ground" from the upper ground which in this case contains the buildings. That line is the separator.

geamon
01-24-2011, 12:24 PM
The thumbnail system is when you create the thread/post in the "Go Advanced" screen, below the message box there should be a "Manage Attachments" button. This opens up a window where you can archive and store any images you have directly on the CG's server, which prevents image and maps from becoming broken links if the third party host shuts down/removes file/ etc. Also it puts a small resolution preview when clicked goes to full resolution image. Only draw back is it has a ~4.5 Meg upload limit which sometimes forces you to lower the quality of the .jpeg or .png you are uploading.

spiderfate
01-24-2011, 01:13 PM
thumbnail test
32838

spiderfate
01-24-2011, 03:26 PM
using the paint brush tool i hand drew the dock lines but it still didnt seem to fix the clash of the background vs the structers.

32844

jfrazierjr
01-24-2011, 03:38 PM
Well. there are several possible ways to "fix" that depending on your goals and flexibility, One is to make the lines a bit darker in places. They look rather muted in the places you added them compared to the original ones you already had in place. There seems to also be an extra gap where a pixel or two of the "ground" color shows through before the cliff face color starts. For the problem area, the line should probably be a bit thicker/darker than the bottom of the cliff transition anyway since the cliff color 'IS" the transition(though a line of some sort always helps).

You could also add additional shadows to the northern cliff face below the bride back to the waterfall. Darker closer to the "horizon" and less darkening as it gets up to the top of the cliff. I hope this makes sense.

Finally, you could increase the size of your river on the right so that it partially overlaps the lower cliff as well as being slightly below town level. This will also help the illusion. I hopw htis make sense too. If not, I can do up a few quick mockups later tonight(perhaps if I have time) just to give you an idea.

Gidde
01-24-2011, 06:10 PM
The dock looks fantastic now. It totally "matches" its surroundings.

spiderfate
01-24-2011, 08:30 PM
Well. there are several possible ways to "fix" that depending on your goals and flexibility, One is to make the lines a bit darker in places. They look rather muted in the places you added them compared to the original ones you already had in place. There seems to also be an extra gap where a pixel or two of the "ground" color shows through before the cliff face color starts. For the problem area, the line should probably be a bit thicker/darker than the bottom of the cliff transition anyway since the cliff color 'IS" the transition(though a line of some sort always helps).

You could also add additional shadows to the northern cliff face below the bride back to the waterfall. Darker closer to the "horizon" and less darkening as it gets up to the top of the cliff. I hope this makes sense.

Finally, you could increase the size of your river on the right so that it partially overlaps the lower cliff as well as being slightly below town level. This will also help the illusion. I hopw htis make sense too. If not, I can do up a few quick mockups later tonight(perhaps if I have time) just to give you an idea.

could you if you got the time, im having trouble seeing it in my head

spiderfate
01-24-2011, 11:04 PM
well ive fiddled around with the ridge a bit. added some textures and shadowing and removed one of the buildings. do you think it made the optics problem better, worse or the same????

Gidde
01-25-2011, 12:04 AM
It's a little better; after jfrazierjr mentioned it I looked and totally thought that building was to blame, since it hid that crucial section of line. Unfortunately, I think your major problem is that the width of the chasm just happens to exactly match the depiction of the height of the wall. It's obvious what's going on when you really look, but you have to really look to see it correctly.

spiderfate
01-25-2011, 01:29 PM
???????????????32884

Jaxilon
01-25-2011, 03:01 PM
I think if you put in some shadows it would help a lot. I would also take the smudge tool and drag your Dock Pylons down into the water which will give them the look of blurring as they go down into the water. I'm not sure what term PS uses for 'smudge' but I'm sure it's close. One other thing you may want to create a little more rapids coming out of the chasm to help with the depth illusion. I think you may need to do something with the way the structures sit on the land. Right now it looks like they are not quite integrated into the piece. With the straight edges along the bases (for instance the bridge) it makes it look like brand new construction or pre-fab dropped in.

Now this may be an area where I differ from many here in that I don't particularly like lines. Probably something my high school art teacher said but there are not really a lot of straight lines in life. It's all light and shadow. You can use lines but you run the risk of looking cartoonish. That may be fine if you want that style obviously. Perhaps a few tufts of grass or something might help?

I did a quick and dirty mock up for the shadows and pylons just to see if I knew what I was talking about and not all the shadows are in there but if you like what you see I hope it helps. I'm not entirely sure what everyone else is looking at so it would be good to also see what jz has to offer.

You have a good thing going here so don't give up. I know it can be frustrating when people are trying to explain stuff you just don't see. Happens to me quite a bit as well but if you can keep swinging your hammer at it and you will be glad you did.

Oh, and feel free to ignore this post if I have failed to communicate adequately. Most of us aren't trained teachers so sometimes what we try to say just fails. At least we are all rooting for ya :)

jfrazierjr
01-25-2011, 04:40 PM
What Jax said and did was quite a bit of what I meant in terms of making the cliff walls darker at the bottom and lighter near the top as if shadows as the light gets less. Jax, you did a great job of what I was trying to articulate.

The base of your cliff now looks much better, but there are a bit of jaggies in a few places, especially on the right cliff bottom. It looks REALLY good at first glance, but when you zoom to 100%, you can see some of the jaggies with your texture or brush you used. I would run a light blur tool over that line a time or three on say 50% opacity with a soft round brush. It just needs a tad, not to much.


As for the water, post 31 was EXACTLY the thing I was suggesting which would help with breaking up the illusion. Another possible (and you don't have to do all of them, just play with it) thin would be to add additional support structure to the bridge itself.32888

Of course, if you decide to do that, you will have to figure out the angles and such, though it probably is not needed if you put the water right past it instead.

Gidde
01-25-2011, 06:11 PM
I don't really have anything more to add, Jax and jfrazierjr said it very well .... I just wanted to remark that Jax is right, you have a great thing going here, so please don't get frustrated. The stuff we really like we end up really critiquing because we want to see it at its very best. :)

Jerett L. Schaufele
01-28-2011, 02:58 AM
I think you did an excellent job on the waterfall. Nice job!

jfrazierjr
01-28-2011, 10:22 AM
Looking forward to more updates on this...

spiderfate
01-28-2011, 11:01 AM
ok, so ive been adding some textures, shadowing and blurring the bottoms of buildings in an attempt to blend them into the landscape. been a little slow going.

jfrazierjr
01-28-2011, 11:32 AM
Very good! that looks much more natural and no brain tricks going on there. Looking real good and waiting for more to come. Oh, one thing I see is that you have a bit to much blurring directly to the NE of the bridge. I like the water effects you have on the lower river (the water flow highlights). Perhaps a bit more on the upper river would be nice.

jtougas
01-28-2011, 12:51 PM
This is looking very good. The blurring really did the trick :)

Jaxilon
01-28-2011, 01:16 PM
Great improvements it's coming along very nicely.

Gidde
01-28-2011, 07:27 PM
Yes! That totally fixed the optical illusion. I also really love the spray you have going from the rapids up the cliff wall.

spiderfate
01-28-2011, 08:41 PM
the problem im having now is i cant figure out how to make the buildings shadows.

Gidde
01-28-2011, 08:53 PM
Hey, I really like that boat!!! I'm no help on the shadows though, shadows are sooo not my strong point :(

spiderfate
01-28-2011, 09:02 PM
thanks, but the boat was more or less traced from a isometric computer game boat, slightly modified.

jtougas
01-28-2011, 09:31 PM
Having just gone through an extensive shadow "boot camp" :) I can say that shadows are all about light. You first need to figure out where your light is coming from in relation to your buildings. It helps to put a time of day to your map. To me it looks like mid day. so the sun would be more or less directly overhead which makes shadowing a bit easier.

Jaxilon
01-28-2011, 09:41 PM
Easiest way is to create a new layer - fill it with color 808080 and set it to overlay. Now you can just dodge/burn or white/black to add or remove shadows. The way I did your shadows when I was playing with it was I figured light source at NE corner or NEE corner. Then I used my rectangle tool to draw a square where the shadow would be (Less the top of the building of course(do that by de-selecting that part)) and bucket filling with black or dark gray. Oh, with the shadow going SW of course. If that doesn't help I will point you to the mini-tutorial I did last lite-challenge which maybe I should redo and post to the How-do-I forums.

sorry I'd say more but I got dinner on the grill atm.

jfrazierjr
02-02-2011, 08:38 PM
When can we expect to see more?

spiderfate
02-08-2011, 09:39 PM
final more or less
33308

Ascension
02-09-2011, 02:16 AM
It looks cool but there are no shadows so it looks kinda funky.

jfrazierjr
02-09-2011, 10:05 AM
What A. said.

Also, it would not hurt to throw some grunge on the docks and houses. Right now, they look uniformly clean(especially the houses). For the houses with A frame roofs, the light appears to be coming from the N(ish) direction, so the south facing roof lines should be a bit darker. This will help the roof "pop" and give the buildings more dimension. Also if the lighting is from the N, the support beams on the ramp going down to the doc should be quite a bit darker than the wood in the sunshine. The large building in the center of town is very hard to tell it has a roof line, so it needs more defining.

While you have a nice piece of work here, I think if you have the time, you could spend a bit more time and make it truly great. I would suggest doing something with the chimneys, perhaps hand drawing a brick or stone pattern(remember to warp a bit at the corners!) and color a bit differently. Likewise, some kind of texture or shape to the house walls would look very nice. Perhaps boards of various sizes or a hand drawn brick/stone pattern.

spiderfate
02-17-2011, 07:16 PM
i decided that i hate this map and want nothing more to do with it. im deleting from my computer and though hypnosis erasing from my memory.

Jaxilon
02-17-2011, 08:08 PM
LOL. See, that just goes to show how much you learned on this. You know all the ways you would do it differently now and so you don't care for it as much. I know the feeling very well.

Sam Conifer
02-17-2011, 08:21 PM
Personally I am a fan of Eiji Yoshikawa's books Musashi and Taiko and I have always loved the lore of Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I also very much like the artwork that occasionally accompanies these kinds of stories, and I think what you have here somewhat resembles that. If you take a look at the couple of drawings that I found on this website - http://history.cultural-china.com/en/34History5435.html - you may see what I mean. I don't think you need to be too disappointed with what you have created here.

Sam Conifer
02-17-2011, 08:53 PM
I admit I probably think more like an artist and less like a cartographer. Anyway here are some more detailed suggestions I would have had even though you probably are completely done with this.

detailed roofs - just some lines for style really

sparsely scattered daily activity - (extremely optional) this could fill in some of the very blank areas. A lot of the ancient Asian art i mentioned had enormous amounts of blank space with just a few solitary gatherings of people or animals drawn in with a sharp color contrast to the ground. This made the paintings/drawings very simple, yet a not-boring. (Heinlein term :) )

walls and trees - for more interesting terrain. Though if you want to keep your blank space as an advantage of your map, these things should be cluttered together and smashed into your cliffs and walls.

----------------------------------

I did make a previous post to help explain what I am saying, but it is currently being held hostage since it was only my fourth post.

jtougas
02-17-2011, 10:17 PM
I know the feeling of working on something for so long and so hard that after a while you just get sick of wrestling the bear as they say. All in all I think this is a very nice piece and if you learned anything from it then it can be termed a success. :)

tilt
02-18-2011, 05:29 AM
looking really good spiderfate, helped a lot that you widened the back river.

jfrazierjr
02-18-2011, 09:20 AM
I had such hopes for this, wish you would finish it. But, as long as you learned somethings it was well worth it.