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eleran
02-02-2008, 01:18 PM
OK, I started the map of the campaign area for my upcoming 4e campaign. And I have already fouled it up beyond belief. It isn't very far along and I hate it.

I will post it in pdf format as I cant get the png version to upload to the forum for some reason.

The things I don't like;

1 The river looks horrible. (It looks to me that the places where I clicked as I was drawing the river don't show up, although they are there when you zoom in)

2. The test has turned blue (I think is a glow problem, but I have glowed turned off for the text sheet.

3. I put a text name in the forest but it doesn't show up at all.

4. The lake off to the left doesn't look very good at all.

There is a lot more to be added to the map, but I got to this point and was so disappointed I thought I would break down and ask for help.

NeonKnight
02-02-2008, 02:12 PM
I'll see what I can do. If you don't mind, email me your map, as I think for some things I can quickly fix their issue.

eleran
02-03-2008, 01:25 AM
Attached is what it looks like after Neonknight brushed up what I had done and gave me a couple of pointers. So, now I am going to do the next step which is to add more terrain features and play around with fonts til I find some I like, because I definitely dislike the ones I have on there now.

eleran
02-03-2008, 02:47 AM
Had a lot of energy after my poker game tonight so I did some work. I definitely feel like I am gaining some skill, now I need to work more on my artistic eye. The map looks rather amateurish, but hey, its my first.

Airith
02-03-2008, 04:02 AM
what did u make it with? Seems to be quite a good first try, although i hope you find a good font soon :)

Also, the changes in color for the coastal lake on the left side don't really match the islands/coast. Maybe make it all the lighter one? One last thing, below the spider----? forest is that a mini forest? Can't tell with my monitor xD

NeonKnight
02-03-2008, 04:06 AM
Looking Good! Like some people say, the learning curve may be steep, but I think if you follow the Tuts, and just play around a bit the skills come to real quick.

Airith:

The area beneath the Spider Haunt woods appears to be swamp (from the symbols I know).

As to the program, it is Profantasy's Campaign Cartographer:

www.profantasy.com

ravells
02-03-2008, 04:46 AM
eleran, for me the repeating fill in the land texture is a real problem - you can see the underlying pattern (you have used a subtle noise texture for the sea which is much better). With the forest, rather than using the square tree clump symbol, mix it up a bit more, put in some little clearings and vary the density a bit - makes it look more hand drawn. Again you can see the repeating tile. If you want to make maps look hand drawn, repeating tiles are one of your worst enemies. Get rid of those and your map will look a million times better.

The font you're using looks like some sort of variant of comic sans, which I would avoid in labeling a fantasy map.

Good luck and keep posting your results, it would be interesting to see how the map comes together!

eleran
02-03-2008, 08:23 AM
Thanks folks.

Ravells, I agree completely about the forest fill. I am going to be changing that up soon.

As for the fonts, anyone like to suggest some? I made a new map and and filled it with each of the fonts side by side and I gotta say I am not real thrilled about any of them so far.

The area below the Spiderhaunt woods is indeed swamp tiles mixed with scrub tiles.

Speaking of the Spiderhaunt. This forest is so-called because it has literally been taken over by giant spiders, in fact in the background for the campaign it is mentioned that when one sees the forest it is hard to tell it was ever green because of all the webbing in the trees. Any suggestions how to indicate this on the map? Maybe a color change to the tree symbols?

NeonKnight
02-03-2008, 08:30 AM
In the default symbols there is also the Veri-Color symbols. Choosing that will allow you to change the color of your symbols to your selected color. In this case, choosing a black, or dark grey will give you a nice grey Forest symbol which would give you a good 'fake-up' of Web Filled trees.

As to fonts, Any good font website has hundreds of fonts. Also check out this part of the the forum:

http://www.cartographersguild.com//showthread.php?t=743

Redrobes
02-03-2008, 10:48 AM
...I agree completely about the forest fill. I am going to be changing that up soon.

Check over this thread too for a fix on that. At the bottom is a downloadable script. With the script is three flattening settings, set it to a lot of flattening to get rid of this effect.

http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=1373

jaerdaph
02-03-2008, 12:33 PM
I would suggest trying something different for the rivers so they are outlined in black like the coastline and the lake. Rather than use the default river drawing tool, perhaps try drawing the coastline with indents for the rivers and lake. See the (very) simple mockup below for an example of what I'm talking about.

eleran
02-03-2008, 12:56 PM
I had thought of that but was worried about making it look like a good river. Great idea though. I am going to tinker with it to get my technique down since I dont have a drawing tablet for my PC yet. Once I feel I can do it with some success I will likely start over. Thanx again for the helpful suggestions everyone.

eleran
02-04-2008, 08:35 PM
I would suggest trying something different for the rivers so they are outlined in black like the coastline and the lake. Rather than use the default river drawing tool, perhaps try drawing the coastline with indents for the rivers and lake. See the (very) simple mockup below for an example of what I'm talking about.

For my map, I had envisioned as I depicted in the original only showing the eastern end of the lake. Mostly for the reason that it allows me to set the total size of the lake later as I make more decisions about the rest of the campaign world. I am designing this campaign world from the inside out. Starting at the town level and working out. What I originally depicted is the starting area that will be known to the characters when we start.

If I "split" the lake using the technique you suggest, is that going to cause any problems later on when I try to add features, like islands or deep water effects, etc.?

I made 2 attempts at other techniques. One using the method you suggested and one using the default tools provided by CC3. I am not entirely happy with the results of any of them.

jaerdaph
02-05-2008, 12:30 AM
If I "split" the lake using the technique you suggest, is that going to cause any problems later on when I try to add features, like islands or deep water effects, etc.?

If you add islands to the lake, use the same landmass drawing tool you used to make the continent. They will sit on top of the lake because the LAND sheet sits on top of the SEA sheet.

You shouldn't run into problems with deep water effects if you draw the sea areas first, then the lake and river areas. Use the Sea, Light drawing tool to create a shallow area around the continent coast first. Then draw a Sea, Default area in the lake (and down the river) to match the sea, and then a Sea, Dark area in the lake. See the attached image to see what I mean.

jaerdaph
02-05-2008, 08:45 AM
Here's that same image with sheet effects turned on. I increased the blur radius of the Blur effect on the SEA sheet from 5 to 7. Also, that shallow area around the coast (made with the Sea, Light drawing tool) really should hug the coastline a little closer, but this was just a quick mockup.

eleran
02-05-2008, 08:50 AM
Ya know. I really didnt like it so much when I first saw it, but after you added effects it looks MUCH nicer. The only thing I don't like about this method is it makes the river look, well, not river-like, to me anyway. Maybe if I drew the river portion with something smoother. I just dont like the fractalizing of each side of the river. Most rivers have some kind of symmetry between each bank.

jaerdaph
02-05-2008, 09:12 AM
The only thing I don't like about this method is it makes the river look, well, not river-like, to me anyway. Maybe if I drew the river portion with something smoother.

That's a great idea and a good point, especially regarding this style of fantasy overland map. Give it a try! :)

NeonKnight
02-05-2008, 09:27 AM
Once you start learning the tricks to CC3, you can start taking advantage of such tools as:


Drawing double lines
Exploding Polygons (so you can delete portions of them)
Using the Trace command (something I don't know how to use yet believe it or not ;))
Using copy command
And then using the Multipoly command to put it all back together again

Midgardsormr
02-05-2008, 07:32 PM
Using the Trace command (something I don't know how to use yet believe it or not ;))


Have patience when you do. It's apparently quite processor-intensive. The Primaterra map I'm working on for Blandine required tracing the fractalized coastlines in order to make the political overlays. It took about a minute and a half to get each length of coastline traced properly.

Granted, my computer's not the most powerful when working with only one processor.

NeonKnight
02-05-2008, 08:57 PM
Have patience when you do. It's apparently quite processor-intensive. The Primaterra map I'm working on for Blandine required tracing the fractalized coastlines in order to make the political overlays. It took about a minute and a half to get each length of coastline traced properly.

Granted, my computer's not the most powerful when working with only one processor.

HAH! In the past (before I knew about the trace command, still have never used it) I always used the copy, split, copy again, and multipoly tools to trace certain portions of a map.

As they say, more than one way to skin a cat....

jaerdaph
02-05-2008, 11:06 PM
Once you start learning the tricks to CC3, you can start taking advantage of such tools as:


Drawing double lines
Exploding Polygons (so you can delete portions of them)
Using the Trace command (something I don't know how to use yet believe it or not ;))
Using copy command
And then using the Multipoly command to put it all back together again


Yeah, these CAD commands, skills and tools are the real power under the hood of CC3... and they only just scratch the surface! :)

eleran
02-16-2008, 01:04 AM
OK, i started over. It is starting to look better, although it still looks pretty n00bish.

I would appreciate any criticisms you folks have

On the eastern side of the woods bordering the mountains a river ends. I had drawn a lake there, but when I went back to a full size map the lake disappeared and I cannot seem to find it. I have drawn it 2 or 3 times and it keep disappearing. I think it is on the wrong layer, but i cant seem to isolate it to find it so i can change the properties.

eleran
02-17-2008, 09:34 AM
Did a little more work this morning. Got the stupid lake to stay put this time. I am getting happier and happier with this map, but would still like to see everyone elses suggestions.

Gamerprinter
02-17-2008, 01:52 PM
Is the main east-west river in the middle of your map going from coast to coast. Unless I'm wrong, its seems that the water on either side of the map is ocean. (or is one or the other a lake?)

If they are both the sea, rivers don't originate in an ocean and drain in another ocean. The river should start from higher elevations and drain to the sea, not travel across the entire land mass.

Sorry, I find this confusing...

eleran
02-17-2008, 01:55 PM
Sorry, it wasn't clear. The body of water on the west side is a large lake very much like one of the Great Lakes.

Gamerprinter
02-17-2008, 02:28 PM
You have your towns, swamp and other geographic terrains labeled. But I see no label for your ocean and lake - which would have really helped me understand and not make the perception error I made in my last post.

You seem to getting along with CC3 well. Try some "sheet effects" and transparent levels to get some more variation with your terrain.

NeonKnight
02-17-2008, 02:46 PM
With the Spiderhaunt woods, is the river going through the Forest? If so, you have two options.

1: Put the RIVERS sheet lower on the list (thus higher on the map) than the forest so the river is drawn ontop of the forest.

2: When putting the Forest Icons down, split them to show the river. Example, place down the forest, edging etc on one side of the river first, then put down the icons edgings etc on the otherside of the siver, almost as if you were drawing two seperate forests right next to each other.

eleran
02-17-2008, 08:18 PM
With the Spiderhaunt woods, is the river going through the Forest? If so, you have two options.

1: Put the RIVERS sheet lower on the list (thus higher on the map) than the forest so the river is drawn ontop of the forest.

2: When putting the Forest Icons down, split them to show the river. Example, place down the forest, edging etc on one side of the river first, then put down the icons edgings etc on the otherside of the siver, almost as if you were drawing two seperate forests right next to each other.

Thanks for the suggestion, but this particular thing was done intentionally. The river was something I added after the forest was there. And once I had the river in place I noticed that it disappeared under the forest. I got to thinking about it and I decided that that was alright because it fit into the mood I was trying to set with my description of the woods. Which is that a large band of large spiders have completely taken the woods over and driven out every decent thing that used to live there. I want the forest to be someplace the characters are very reticent to go to until, of course, they need to go there for some malicious purpose I have dreamt up.

Oh and here is an updated map. Lots of suggestions can be made here.

I also have placed 3 structures in the spiderhaunt that a couple of my sharper eyed players have picked up on and are already asking about.

eleran
02-17-2008, 09:33 PM
BTW, I was working on the map late last night and I swear I came across a symbol for a mine while looking for something else. Now that I need a symbol for a mine i cannot find it again. Anyone have an idea if I was just overtired or actually saw one somewhere in the CC3 program?

ravells
02-18-2008, 05:22 AM
Looking good eleran. Is there a reason why the Wilderland forests have the red /orange/yellow trees only only on the eves? If not, it may be a good idea just to mix them randomly with the forest as a whole.

eleran
02-18-2008, 07:40 AM
No good reason other than I was playing around trying out various symbols just see how they looked. This map is not just my world map it is also my own little tutorial in progress. I am constantly changing things up. so far I like the looks of the Spiderhaunt Woods and the unnamed forest in the southeast betwixt the mountains the best. I will be having another go at the forest in the Wild Lands up north later this week, and will post after those changes as well.

ravells
02-18-2008, 09:37 AM
It's the best way to learn. Forgot to add (repeating myself from earlier) - one of the biggest enemies you have in this map is the very obvious repeating pattern terrain. You might be able to get away with it if you put down a lot of elements on top if it so the repeat isn't so obvious. I don't use CC3 but maybe one the CC3 whizzes can help with that. The alternative is to put one or two semi-transparent fills on top of the first one to break up the seams. Worth a play.

eleran
02-18-2008, 09:43 AM
It's the best way to learn. Forgot to add (repeating myself from earlier) - one of the biggest enemies you have in this map is the very obvious repeating pattern terrain. You might be able to get away with it if you put down a lot of elements on top if it so the repeat isn't so obvious. I don't use CC3 but maybe one the CC3 whizzes can help with that. The alternative is to put one or two semi-transparent fills on top of the first one to break up the seams. Worth a play.

Are you talking about the background fill for the landmass? If so, I agree. I grow less fond of it every day. But, I havent had the guts to try to change it yet.

You're the 2nd person to refer to transparencies. I havent tried them yet and are not really even sure what they are or how they work.

ravells
02-18-2008, 09:58 AM
Yep, it's the background fill I'm talking about. You'll have to wait for a CC3 bod to happen by to help you semi-transparent fills.

eleran
02-18-2008, 10:11 AM
Here's a question I have come across. If I am trying to erase or edit an entity, I have to first select that entity, but sometimes it is very hard to do without selecting other entities and I will see in the command line entity selcted (2) or more. Is there a way to unselect 1 or more entities before proceeding with the action? I have been right clicking and choosing cancel then trying again until I find some way to select only what I want, then proceeding.

NeonKnight
02-18-2008, 12:14 PM
For your terrain, there is a few ways to help eliminate that annoying pattern.

These are:

1: Easiest to do, go to the sheet effects and apply a slight blur to that LAND sheet. This will 'blur' the image for that sheet and as a result displace that repeating pattern.

2: A little hard is to find the FILL STYLE name of the BMP used for the land and change the size of it, by changing the scaled width options to something a little larger.

3. Tied to number 2 above, create a new sheet, located just above the LAND sheet and put a slightly different land fill style on it, and make that slightly transparent.

RobA
02-19-2008, 08:47 AM
3. Tied to number 2 above, create a new sheet, located just above the LAND sheet and put a slightly different land fill style on it, and make that slightly transparent.

Similar to adding a turbulent noise layer in multiple mode (or whatever mode) in PS or GIMP!

-Rob A>

eleran
02-22-2008, 07:25 PM
newest version is up.

I changed the background fill. Not convinced I like it yet.

I also changed the trees for the spiderhaunt woods to reflect how the trees look with webs filling them to the point where they are largely unrecognizable as trees.

More to be done this weekend. Finish filling in all the forested areas, also going to add some more easter eggs for my players to find.

delgondahntelius
02-22-2008, 07:37 PM
Here are two tiles I came up with a day or so ago, just playing around with fills and what not, trying to feel my way around Paintshop. Thought I'd at least offer them :)

Its looking good, btw. Can't wait to see the next update :compass:

**After looking for a second and third time.. these might be a little too much in the way of land fills.. too much noise that is...

Midgardsormr
02-22-2008, 07:54 PM
They may not be the best for a general land fill, but they might work out well as forest fills.

There's an unresolved question in the thread regarding separating objects that are in a stack while selecting. I was wondering about the same thing. I have figured out how to exclude an item of a particular color (NOT), but surely there must be a way to exclude everything that doesn't meet a test. Can I select only the black objects in a stack, for instance?

delgondahntelius
02-22-2008, 09:12 PM
Are you talking about ... I need all the black entites on the map... or I've selected a bunch of entities, now I only want the black ones? .... because you can use your R. click commands to select groups of the same property .. IE Color, Layer, Type....

which leads me to answer eleran's question about selecting one entity when you seem to only be able to grab two.. very frustrating, but you can now select objects by their entity tag Are you talking about ... I need all the black entites on the map... or I've selected a bunch of entities, now I only want the black ones? .... because you can use your R. click commands to select groups of the same property .. IE Color, Layer, Type....

which leads me to answer elerans question of selecting just one entity out two that cover each other.. very frustrating, you can now select objects by their entity tag --- type a number to select an entity by its unique number as see in under Info > List. I would imagine this is going to be quite handy...

but i'm still not sure of mid's question completely... but then again.. i can be a little slow :)

delgondahntelius
02-22-2008, 09:19 PM
This comes directly from the CC3 help file... which you've probably already read and there wasn't a need to post it here...
CC3 allows you to select entities using a right click popup menu. You can find the on/off switches for the right click menu under the Options [Tools > Options] – make sure that Select with right-button context menus is checked.

Note that you can type the underlined letter for each choice (when available) to hotkey the selection.

Start an editing command then right click to see the selection menu.




Do it: Choose to end selection. The editing command you invoked can now be carried out.

Cancel: Choose to cancel both the selection and the current command.

And, Or, and Not: choose whether selected entites are added to or removed from the current selection. More

All: Choose to select all entities in drawing. Does not select entities on frozen layers. Available only if no entities have been immediately selected.

Prior: Choose to select the entities last edited/created in a previous command. Available only if no entities have been immediately selected.


Color: Choose to select entities by color. You can pick a color from the Color Bar, type a color number, or right-click and select a color from the current palette.

Layer: Choose to select entities by layer. You can type in a layer name, or right-click and select a layer from the Select Layer dialog box.

Line Style/Fill Style: Choose to select entities by Line or Fill Style. Type in a fill style or line style name, or right click and select from the dialog box.

Entity Tag #: type a number to select an entity by its unique number as see in under Info > List.

Entity Type: Choose to select an entity type (e.g. arc, path) from the Select Entity Type dialog box. All selectable entities of the type you select will be selected.

Notes
CC3 works the way you think, in a verb-object orientation. That is, if you want to "erase a circle," you first choose the Erase, then select the circle. This is the recommended method.

To change to the standard Windows method (choose entities, then select a command)

CC3 also has the option to select entities using a series of dialog boxes

In particular you can use entity tag and entity type dialogues to really narrow choices of what you select or don't select....
**I'm still looking through the many various help files, tutorials, etc to see if there are ways to do what you are wanting to do, maybe I just imagined seeing something ....

Midgardsormr
02-23-2008, 12:23 AM
What's been confusing me is the use of the Boolean tools. NOT is easy: I have a landmass and its outline. I want to delete only the black outline, so I choose NOT, color, then black. AND and OR, though, I haven't kenned yet.

I think I need to just play for a while--all of my use time lately has been spent trying to solve particular design needs rather than exploring the program.

On the other hand, I've learned quite a bit in solving those problems that I might not have by experimentation.

eleran
02-23-2008, 10:29 AM
I did find the answer to one of my questions. If I am trying to edit or erase or whatever a symbol or symbols and I accidentally selected a symbol I do not want, merely hold down the CTRL button and reclick the entity you dont want to edit, that will remove it from the selected entities and you can proceed with your command.