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eViLe_eAgLe
08-31-2011, 07:12 PM
I was having an argument with a friend because she said that the "computer does it for you." When i reality, you draw it yourself on the computer and shade it. And even with filters you have to be smart and intuitive enough to figure a good way out to do something.

Gamerprinter
08-31-2011, 07:23 PM
It depends. If you can actually draw (which you can, I know) sometimes what you can do by hand, beats what can be done on computer. On the other hand, if you're using a drawing tablet, then you can achieve hand-drawn work straight into a computer as a work-around.

In the past, I've tried to create some semi-realistic maps with 3D apps. The problem is trying to apply a complex texture after creating a complex 3D model is terribly time-consuming. Sometimes the kind of detail I want, I can do infinitely faster by hand than trying to do that in 3D.

For those who aren't artists, hand-drawing is out of the question. So if you can draw, why avoid it? It depends on the style you want and the results you need...

GP

mearrin69
08-31-2011, 08:30 PM
My wife and I used to have this discussion back when we got married (coming up on 21 years). Back then I was mucking about with Deluxe Paint and some really rudimentary 3D apps (POVray and the precursor to trueSpace). I think she has changed her tune after all of these years, finally accepting digital art as being just as valid as traditional. Tell your friend that if she ever finds an app that enables the "computer to do it for me" to please send me a purchase link...I want that program. It just isn't so.
M

eViLe_eAgLe
08-31-2011, 09:19 PM
Congragulations for 21 years!
And as for the topic.. I told her that the only thing that really shades for you is lighting effects and even that can't do everything.

Alex
08-31-2011, 10:19 PM
Computer. Why? Because if you mess up, there's this thing called edit. There's also a easier way to make your work look good, or realistic. If you don't have paint or have run out, that's cool -- Photoshop or Corel will do that for ya! Oh no, did you lose that sketch you had!? Did you spill something on it!? Oh don't worry you! You scanned it in, remember? You're safe for now.

The only problem is that it takes more out of you to figure out how to use the software, how to use the filters, layers, tools etc etc. But in the end, its much easier on the PC than with hand.

That being said, I think computer is easier. But nothing beats drawing it by hand. Its just so much better, and fun, I think! :D

Ascension
09-01-2011, 12:22 AM
I think hand is easier but with caveats. Things like patterns, flood fills, and filters would take a long time by hand so the computer makes that part easier...and the undo button and layers. But when I draw it's easier to draw by hand on paper because there's a disconnect when using a tablet if you're not using a Cintiq.

eViLe_eAgLe
09-01-2011, 02:44 AM
I agree with the above posts. But the thing I am talking about is.. Take mountains in ISO for instance. Theres no auto-feature to shade it automatically (not counting brushes or stamps.) You have to shade it manually. Talking about like that.

tilt
09-01-2011, 03:37 AM
I think the thing to remember is that, no matter the tool, pencil or computer, it is you that vield it. Its not like people say, yeah that colored drawing you made looks cool, but you had an easier job cause you used markers, try using paint, thats what a real artist uses. :) ... we accept that new tools are helping us do things easier and faster. Like a drawing compass making circles for you for instance - one would never look down at you for using that. :)
So we use the tools at hand, be it a tablet, a mouse or a pencil. The computer aids us with some shading and texturing and more important: layers and undo ... so many times when I've been painting (acryllic on canvas) I've wished for an undo button *lol*

so to sum up: no - the computer doesn't do it for you - it aids you :) and that goes not only for photoshop but in all walks of life... Word don't write your novells, Excell doesn't do your accounting etc etc :)

Coyotemax
09-01-2011, 05:57 AM
It's all about what you put into it. Excel can't do your finances for you - you can set it up to assist you, but it will still only put out what you put into it.. and if you get someone else to write up a spreadsheet, you're done for if your needs change and you can't get ahold of that person to change it - better to learn how to set it up yourself. Photoshop is a great tool for working with photos and creating images, but it will only look as good as the effort you put into learning how to use it. Paper is a wonderful medium, but you need to practice drawing in order to understand how to draw what you want to draw. Wood chisels and walking staves - wow they can turn out nice, but only if you develop the skills to work with it (and callouses, ouch).

The medium doesn't matter. It's the vision of the artist, and the effort that's put into learning to work with the tools of choice (or necessity).

jfrazierjr
09-01-2011, 08:35 AM
I agree with the above posts. But the thing I am talking about is.. Take mountains in ISO for instance. Theres no auto-feature to shade it automatically (not counting brushes or stamps.) You have to shade it manually. Talking about like that.

A wise man once said (paraphrase): "the best way to make something look hand drawn is to draw it by hand"

Now.. for me... I don't do any paper drawing... I am just to darn used to undo and layers, but still "hand drawn" shading shows through in your work, so get a decent tablet and do it yourself...

Redrobes
09-01-2011, 09:26 AM
Seems like the perfect opportunity to post this link:

http://www.wacom.eu/index2.asp?pid=9226&lang=en

I.e. it makes no difference any more. Ink / Digital its the same thing now.

jfrazierjr
09-01-2011, 09:52 AM
Seems like the perfect opportunity to post this link:

http://www.wacom.eu/index2.asp?pid=9226&lang=en

I.e. it makes no difference any more. Ink / Digital its the same thing now.

Oh I would not quite say that....

linux--
gimp--
unless your hand drawn line work is perfect the first time, every time, you still have to do a pencil sketch first--

Redrobes
09-01-2011, 10:42 AM
The little black box in the vid is the pen pickup. It has a button on the top which when pushed starts a new layer. So you push it, draw some, push it, draw some more. When your all done you upload it all to the PC as vector and just choose all the layers you liked. So when you say you still have to do the pencil sketch first - yes, but this thing will keep the sketch before you start to draw it. By the time your sketch looks good you have those good layers already in vector form and you can scrub all that which came before it. Linux and gimp are just free tools to get you there. Free or paid is not at issue. Ink or digital is the question and with a pen like this or a pen tablet and a printer they are interchangeable.

No substitute for the brain, eye and hand controlling all this stuff. That's where the art is. Digital or physical, its all art. Its the image behind the medium that is art and the part that separates the good from the bad. Hardly any CGI is completely AI or procedural. Almost all of it still has to be created by someone. Only such things as pictures of the Mandelbrot or whatever could be argued that they are not art. Ultimately all visual art is sparks in synapses in the head so a kind of virtual / digital anyways. Were heading into metaphysics now tho. Anyone read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" ? A must read, and on that explains why its all art.

Jaxilon
09-01-2011, 03:48 PM
Hehe, this kind of makes me imagine a conversation between an ancient artist that painted on rocks and cave walls talking with someone using a piece of paper. Will the Rock painter say real artists use sticks and an uneven surface? Or will he embrace the paper?

Art is always changing unless you prefer stagnation: noahbradley break-your-routines (http://www.noahbradley.com/blog/2011/break-your-routines/)

Personally, I come from the more traditional art background and only in the last year or so started learning digital. I still am frustrated at not being able to get exactly what I see in my mind's eye because I know I could draw it on paper but sometimes I create something I hadn't imagined and that is a nice surprise.

There are things that are easier to do digitally. For instance, colorize your entire background a certain hue. How great is it to drag a paint can to the canvas instead of actually waving your arm to and fro over a real one? You can modify the textures of something with a few clicks of a button so yeah, that is much easier. You still have to make it look good and blend into a cohesive looking piece. In the end, you have pixels yes? With an actual painting you have a physical object in your hands so there is a level of satisfaction there but it's also not easy to take with you when you travel.

Can folks who are not good artists create good looking things using computerized tools? Yes and it is the computer that made it possible. Is there an advantage in being able to actually draw or paint? Certainly, I believe there is. And obviously it requires good hand eye coordination skills to be able to draw by hand.

I believe there is an artist in all of us, however, it may be stunted due to lack of belief in our artistic ability or because of comparing ourselves to someone else.

If you go into a 3rd grade classroom and ask for all the artists in the room to raise their hands, just about every kid in there will raise theirs. Something happens along the way (probably high school) where because we don't draw or paint something just like someone else we become convinced that we are not artistic. As a result, we tend to not try anymore. We move in other directions. So, imo, anything that helps people get back into expressing themselves through art is a good thing and they shouldn't be criticized for it. How many start out doing things digitally using filters find themselves starting to make things by hand because they want a certain something that wasn't available?

How about Antony Gormley who put those iron statues out in the middle of no place and people have to travel miles just to see them? Is he an artist or a nut job? I don't know, but I wish I had done this (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xacrwk_gormley-statues-on-lake-ballard-wes_travel). Sure it is sculpture but is not that also art or is crafting something like that too easy?

Make it with yarn I say! So long as it fires up your creative juices go for it. You never know when you might come up with something utterly fantastic.

Gamerprinter
09-01-2011, 05:19 PM
Oh I would not quite say that....

linux--
gimp--
unless your hand drawn line work is perfect the first time, every time, you still have to do a pencil sketch first--

While I'm not claiming that my hand-drawn work is perfect by any means, I always draw with a pen, and never with a pencil, and I never need to redraw anything, I just work with what I create and finish the map. I don't want to draw the same lines twice, that's why I ink it from the start. Then scan it, import to my applications of choice and finish the work. I do 'paint it' in the computer as I don't enjoy working with paint brushes...

GP

eViLe_eAgLe
09-01-2011, 06:30 PM
I also prefer working with a pen.. But im a novice compared to you GP.