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Torq
03-09-2008, 10:43 AM
I noticed a while back on a different (and not nearly as well supported) board that the members there were trying to put together a fantasy world to support gamers and enthusiasts, mapping everything from world map to the cellar below the quick eel tavern. At the time I thought it was a brilliant idea, although hopelessly ambitious, with the member numbers and (to be honest) skill levels exhibited by members on that site.

I thought the Cartographerís Guild would be the perfect group to attempt something like this. We have great mappers, good people and a committed group of community leaders. We could create a game world on various levels in maps. Starting at global/continental level, regional level, Local level (eg. Towns) and finally floorplan level. It could be a continuous project with a community leader in overall supervision and various community leaders each in charge of one of the levels of mapping to give guidelines at to what needs to be mapped and to make sure of continuity between maps.

Maybe there should even be an entrance requirement eg. 20 posts before you can be involved (just to ensure that the people mapping are generally ones who stay). The project could be under the auspices of Arcana, and he should, in my view, have the final say as to how it is used.

There are so many great maps on this site, I would love to see them coordinated into a single realised game world with its own back story, characteristics and cultural background.

I think itís a great idea, but I would love to know what other members think.

Torq

delgondahntelius
03-09-2008, 12:00 PM
I heartedly agree, that is a great idea and would love the opportunity to be involved in something so grandiose. I actually have some ideas on how to implement something like that... but before I actually go into them, I'm going to wait and see the feedback, if it looks like something that is going to happen then I'll devote some time to it ...

Kudo's to you and here is some rep for that fantastic idea :D

Gamerprinter
03-09-2008, 01:21 PM
The other Fantaseum sites, include: Campaign Builders' Guild.

It might be worthwhile to find an existing campaign world from CBG or one of the CG members could go to CBG and start work on a new campaign world - use their help. Then create maps here to illustrate this world.

We could then do what you suggest, Torq and work to completely map this new world. And gain participation with the CBG - more fuel for the newsletter.

A cross-site collaborative effort seems a worthwhile activity. Plotstormers could start to create fiction for this same world.

We could assign cartographers here to planetary map, regional maps, etc. We could make requests for which part of the world, each wishes to map, etc.

CBG members could likewise be working on building a particular part of the world and request maps from us to describe these areas....

Thought? 8)

Torq
03-09-2008, 02:28 PM
I think thats a great idea GP. It would allow us to concentrate on the mapping and greatly increase the collaberation between the three sites. I think though that the world idea should be fairly "mainstream" ie. standard fare pseudo-medieval fantasy world, in order to give it the broadest appeal. This would also give the most number of mappers on this site a chance to really contribute.

Torq

pyrandon
03-09-2008, 03:18 PM
First of all, Torq (and others), I like the way you think!!!

This idea has been raised before among the community leaders--along with many, many other ideas (some of which were thought of as cheap sales items just to cover costs; we are a not for profit venture, but Arcana and others do have to eat costs for software, hosting, etc.) We did not pursue the idea at the time, mainly because we were all taxed for time. I also remember I liked the idea, although a general atlas or "Best of TCG 2008" (etc.) was my own vote (and I still like this idea, although it's different than what you are proposing, of course.

I think this project is very ambitious, which scares me, because we're looking at a coordinated effort by many, many people over long periods of time. I'm not sure we could sustain it. I worry it's one of those projects that gets started, then dies. (Not to say we shouldn't try it anyway, but if we do we should build in failsafes.

I can only speak for myself as a community leader that I would contribute but not run this. Long-term projects like this are not my forte. (I work in jerks and fevers, followed by cool spots and breaks). Does a CL really need to be in charge? Could a solid Guild member do it?

There are plenty of other things to consider, I think, but I think the above issues are first in order of importance. What are your thoughts on all that?

Again, I applaud all you guys for thinking of a fun way to promote the Guild & inter-Guild involvement!

Gamerprinter
03-09-2008, 05:20 PM
Although a project like this would require the long-term participants to keep the direction on track and moving forward, however, much of the development could be like that of GIMP - where designers come and go, so in the end there are 2000 mappers used in the life of the project.

If the fear that a project that starts and dies at the guild seems disconcerting, I have no problems hosting the third party site to house the project with a direct link and forums thread from here. This way its a guild project but it's also not - so as not to have anything detrimental reprecussions to the Guild - if that's your fear, Pyrandon.

I too need mapping breaks now and again, and I have lots "pots cooking on my stove" - I'm a busy guy, so sometimes I couldn't stay involved on a constant basis, but I'd certainly remain with it in the long run.

Torq, if you want to be the Project Leader, you are certainly a candidate, there might not be a required need for Community Leader participation, beyond being another mapper.

I think we need to get thoughts from a larger number of CG members who might be interested, before we do anything - but I'm open for participation.

Torq
03-09-2008, 05:33 PM
Pyrandon, I have the same reservations about starting a project and it dying a quick or even slow death. That may happen. But this site is has the personnel most likely to make it succeed. I dont think anyone should feel obliged to commit to such a project. We are mostly amateurs who need to do other things to make a living, so I dont think anyone should feel under pressure to make any form of deadline.

I for one would love to contribute. I'm not sure I'm cut out to lead the project (although I appreciate the vote of confidence GP). I believe the preson who leads this sort of project will have to be someone with a prettty good grasp of mapping on a global scale. To create a "macro" view if you like as a blue print from which to work down. I also dont really know much about web hosting or programming, which may be a necessity particularly if the project were to really get going.

After my eralier post in response to GP, I thought of a potential problem with collaborating with the Fantaseum Alliance partners. Work sharing is fairly easy to do when you are hsndling the mapping, but not so when you are creating the backstory or campaign details. The other two sites would struggle to get a brief to us for a long time, because their processes are, by definition, much slower if major collaboration is sought between their members.

Torq

delgondahntelius
03-09-2008, 06:08 PM
I have a vast homebrew world... for the last... 22 years its where I have spent a lot of blood, sweat and time. I've always encouraged my players to help in the creation of that world... any ideas they might have, etc... some have gone on to world changing events, others... not so vast, but none the less they have contributed something in so much as having a character in my world... It of course is an ever changing world which reacts to their and NPC's actions... I won't bore you with the details of that... but, with such a large world as I have, and with the history of it, the NPC's the Villians, the countries, regions continents, races, religions ... etc... it was quite overwhelming ... I am a chaotic person by nature.. with hardly any organization skills (this is why I married my wife :) ) and I would find that I would have maybe... three different maps for a certain region only because I lost the first two somewhere among the debris which couldn't be called a filing system in any universe and I would have to make it up from memory and fill in the blanks....

So... I finally came up with a way to organize a large world... something I called the RDI (Regional Development Index) ... This catagorized everything mostly by (first Continent, Region and then Countries, cities, etc..) This proved to be quite useful... as I could file the stuff where I needed it.. and find it again when I needed it... it also helped me keep track of what I already had developed so that if a player wanted to make up a character from a certain region I could A: either give them the specifics so they could make a background or B: give them my generalized idea of what it consisted of and they could come up with details for that area (subject to my approval) and thus add to the ever increasing player and GM built world... I catagorize these by numbers... 1 being an area virtually a blank canvas and 4 being something that is in the realm of completed and very detailed already...

While this is probably not completely what a project like this needs, It would help in establishing the world and its regions as well as giving everyone an idea of progress and what future expansion is needed...

That is my idea on how one could at least organize the project as well as oversee it and run it...

Torq has the right idea about CBG, it would be a long an arduous task in which we (the mappers) would be waiting on... I'm not totally against the idea however and maybe we should consider reversing that... making the maps... and sending it to them and allowing them to "fill" it with campaign goodies...

Anyway... that's my couple coppers for now :D

Del

Redrobes
03-09-2008, 08:21 PM
Thought id just chip in here. I wrote ViewingDale as the purpose built app which is going to bring a whole campaigns worth of maps together. It has been tested with 100,000 icons on the same page and it renders at about a frame a second with that much info. Theres details about that on its forum.

I am writing my GeoTerSys to create vast terrain so that there is a base for the world which goes down to a level of detail which would allow you to put a house on it and it not look lost in a sea of blurryness.

So hell yeah ! I am heading that way at full speed. GTS is being used for MeDem and for me that is a test bed for the fantasy realm that will be made beyond that point. I want a large 1000 mile+ terrain where every city and village has detail of its floor plans etc.

I have wanted this since I started as a DM and have been making the tools to do this for the last 5 years. Yes its ambitious but I have no doubt any more that its within grasp - maybe 6 months away now. Were just starting to chug out MeDem terrain demo tiles within the last month.

If you need a demo of ViewingDale then were nearly at the time of iCon. See my sig, sign up and have a play with the demo that will be online in a few weeks/days now. ViewingDale is a VTT but its also a multi user networked map sharing tool. Connected members can all modify, update and share the maps, hence - Share the Vision !

What Del is describing with the Regional Development Index is a mapping hierarchy which is exactly the way the program stores the map database. I suspect that if Del were to put his collection into it he would be able to zoom from full continent to house floor and smaller in one smooth run.

delgondahntelius
03-09-2008, 09:40 PM
Aww... and here I thought I was being original or something.... I'll definitely be checking out Viewing dale... what a shameless plug, btw :D ( j/k ) Can't wait to see the demo!

Redrobes
03-10-2008, 09:19 AM
Sure its a plug but heck, its frustrating when you plug all day and night for 5 years over this and people still say that its almost impossible. Collating all the maps together has traditionally been the hard bit and making the maps is the fun and easy bit - its just that there would be an awful lot of them to do. In the past, like say Forgotten Realms, the creators have produced many maps of the same place at different scales. A) This is a waste of time and effort and B) They never really lined up seamlessly. Also, people would generally independently make very similar maps of similar places like inns & castles whereas what you need is templates of maps which could be chopped about and modified. So given that these three issues can be eliminated the actual difficulty can be significantly reduced to a manageable level. Add on multiuser networking etc and its all there for the taking.

If you had written Photoshop and people kept saying that its almost impossible to make maps with MSPaint then you cant help going Aaaarrrrhhhh !!! The undertaking of making a continental sized campaign world down to floor plan level seems daunting only if your sat there with a pen or a paint package contemplating the enormity of the task ahead. If you change your perspective on how to deal with the problem then its doable. Not easy of course but very possible. The talk of it petering out after a certain time is a nonsense if you are not making the map like writing a book starting at page one. Everyone could continue to make the maps they already make and it would still progress. Nothing has to change - it just needs collating into a campaign. The most change would be that sometimes you might have to make a map of a more specific area because its missing. The idea of GTS is to do away with even that by generating a base land that has everything already there but not populated.

Arcana
03-10-2008, 09:43 AM
I'll support an effort like this as much as possible, short of actual programming...I've discussed my programming in the other thread hehehe...

I have a site that is currently hosting a Wiki that I was using to do my homebrew world...Kinda like Pyrandon's world Wiki.

If you guys wanna do a project like this, I'd recommend starting with a sub-forum for planning, then as the project starts to reach scale, move to a larger repository, such as a Wiki.

NeonKnight
03-10-2008, 05:59 PM
Sounds like fun. I'd probably concentrate more on town city mapping.

Kagehito
03-11-2008, 05:16 PM
I'd love to jump on board of this project! I know I'm still a little green here, but I can offer some whatever skills I have. I work front desk at a hotel, and really only spend about 1 hour out of my 8 actually doing work. The rest of the time i'm running around on the net and doing game stuff.

Also If I could, for anyone working on this project, I have a reading suggestion. Its a little out dated, but the book "Harlan's World".

The first part of the book is pretty much a seminar that Harlan Ellison taught as he and a couple of his friends (including Frank Herbert!) started to develop a world.

It's a good read to see how other people enter the design process of a task to big, and a timeline to get it done to short.

A good mood setter!

Torq
03-14-2008, 12:59 AM
Seeing as the idea of this post was to gauge the communty's views on the viability of such a project I thought I should give it a bump in case anyone missed it.

Torq

Airith
03-14-2008, 12:08 PM
I think it would be awesome to see you guys do something like that. A world of maps is way better then ... a non-world of maps.

With the skills you guys have it'd be one epic game world.

Too bad I couldn't contribute :P

NeonKnight
03-14-2008, 12:35 PM
I think it would be awesome to see you guys do something like that. A world of maps is way better then ... a non-world of maps.

With the skills you guys have it'd be one epic game world.

Too bad I couldn't contribute :P

Why couldn't you? The main reason I do ALL my maps in CC3 with no after effect work done in Phtoshop or Gimp or anything is to try and show people what can be accomplished with the CC3 suite of Software and nothing else. If I can make cool maps, then anyone can make cool maps

Torq
03-14-2008, 05:18 PM
I agree with Neon. Airith you would certainly be able to contribute. If we do take on this thing, I dont believe there should be any requirement as to the software used. Everyone should be allowed to map using their app of choice> sure this may lead to style inconsistencies but these can ne easily overcome and diversoty is one of the things that defines this community>

Torq

Midgardsormr
03-14-2008, 06:24 PM
You know what might be fun? If each of us adopted a fictional cartographer persona while working on the maps. That way, we'd be roleplaying while creating the world, justifying a variety of different styles, and building some interesting NPCs all at the same time.

NeonKnight
03-14-2008, 07:33 PM
You know what might be fun? If each of us adopted a fictional cartographer persona while working on the maps. That way, we'd be roleplaying while creating the world, justifying a variety of different styles, and building some interesting NPCs all at the same time.

That sir is such a good idea it deserves some REP!

pyrandon
03-14-2008, 11:35 PM
OK, Bryan--I agree with Neon: that idea right there just upped my interest in this project by a big leap! Wow--what a fun idea!!

Midgardsormr
03-15-2008, 12:09 AM
Um... wow. High praise for idle speculation! Thanks, though!

Torq
03-17-2008, 03:54 AM
Great idea Mid. Though for those mappers with unique artistic styles it makes it easier to adopt a fictional persona, but for those of us who (particularly close-up) tend to aim for something tending towards the photorealistic, it could be problematic ...... no wait, I just thought of something.

I repeat, great idea Mid!

Torq

ravells
03-24-2008, 07:55 AM
This sounds like a great idea. Torq, you should have a think about adding another level of detail to the execution of it. I guess the question that occurs to me is, do the mappers also do the world building or is some sort of basic (or advanced) worldbuilding done first?

Redrobes
03-24-2008, 08:37 AM
I reckon it would take a bit of a group think there to decide how to tackle it. You need some sort of world mapped out first. You must decide on some basic things like climate & geography as well as the sort of general styles that each area would have. You cant have big cities in one spot and then this points of light approach for all the area around it.

I would also suggest that the whole effort be focused on some smallish area of the world so that you get at least one place with some coherent, in depth mapping going on. Thats like the Cormyr area of Forgotten Realms that had a lot more detail than the rest when it started. You could work with that and fit RPGs into it easily therefore it would get traction by other users to get more into it.

Particularly for the large scale maps you need some very common software to do it. Possibly even general software. I would suggest any bitmap editor and use RobA's style of using B&W maps with cloud filters / fractal noise to raise the detail and fill in the areas with more detail as the scale gets lower.

Another hot tip I have learned from experience is that you need to map in topo - i.e. straight down mode. You cant use the perspective style mountains like 'M's to do it unless your prepared to completely loose one map when zooming into higher scale. Also for the same reasons, its easier if you go for a realistic style of map rather than say an Atlas style like HandsomeRobs. Both look nice and the latter is probably easier to read but if you want to use scaled down version of small scale maps in the large scale maps then they just wont fit. Otherwise you have to decide on which sets of fixed scale to run with and map them all separately.

Gamerprinter
03-24-2008, 10:52 AM
After my eralier post in response to GP, I thought of a potential problem with collaborating with the Fantaseum Alliance partners. Work sharing is fairly easy to do when you are hsndling the mapping, but not so when you are creating the backstory or campaign details. The other two sites would struggle to get a brief to us for a long time, because their processes are, by definition, much slower if major collaboration is sought between their members.

Torq

This is the case only if we are planning to be the world-builders of a brand new project. Consider that among the many campaign worlds being developed by the Campaign Builders Guild is a project called CeBeGia. This world has already a significant developement as well as some ideas on the world geography itself.

Not that there aren't adequete world-builders among the membership of the CG, and not that there aren't substantial mappers in the CBG community - its just that we are an alliance of sites and we should be working together in some respects. It seems playing World-Builder among the CG is counter-productive to involving the CBG.

Both projects are similar and yet are treated as mutually exclusive. Besides the CeBeGia project is not without some level of development already and may be ready for mapping by CG members without having to wait or struggle to new developments.

In all sincerity from me, however, I understand the marketing viability of working with a vanilla world - to capture the attention of the widest pool of players and GMs, but I've never played, GM'd or spent any development time on vanilla worlds. I like my icecream with flavor! I would work on any periphery areas of the campaign world that's not completely vanilla. Even if I participated, I'd never play in a vanilla campaign world. For me it would be an exercise in world development, rather than a project fulfilling any personal goals beyond that.

Torq
03-24-2008, 04:00 PM
Thanks to everyone, and most recently to GP and Redrobes for engaging thoroughly and candidly on this issue. I think a major issue of contention will be the level of "directorial control" that would be both healthy and necessary. On one hand higher levels of control will mean more thematic consistency, more seamless blending of various levels of zoom and probably a more polished product at the end of the day. The result would be a more or less uniform world with its own "flavour" to use GP's word with corrected spelling ;) and which could be mapped and plotted smoothly using a product like Red's Viewingdale, without too many hiccoughs.

On the other side, and the approach I would favo(u)r, would be a looser managerial model. It would strive to allow mappers on this site, to to what they already do, namely make maps in their own styles and feel free to experiment and develop their styles in different directions. There would obviously be some basic paramaters eg, global geography, climate, cultural info, planetary size etc., but the control would not extend so far as dictating style and nuance to individual mappers. The pitfalls that I believe exist with the first method would be caused by the fact that many mappers would feel its a bit of a chore if their brief is too specific and would be more likely to lose interest. It would also, in my opinion, discourage people who would otherwise like to have a go but feel a little self-conscious about there maps or their skills. And can you imagine sending an e-mail to HandsomeRob saying "We really like the continent map that you've put together, but do you think you could make your mountains look a bit more like Pyrandon's?"

On the whole I believe the essence of this site and the reason for its success is participation. Encouraging participation, possibly at the expense of stylistic consistency, would be better in my view. I would go so far as to say it would be necessary to achieve the levels of participation from this community that would ensure a project like this didn't die out. I may be alone in this view, but there it is.

Torq

NeonKnight
03-24-2008, 08:41 PM
I agree with Torq. I would rather a comprised world map of a fantasy world to mapped with a variety of styles. Looking at past historical maps from Earth, they did not all have the same style to them, thus we had things like the Mercator Style, the John Speed Style, and other incongruous styles.

Even the Forgotten Realm Atlas had a few different styles of maps within it.

Redrobes
03-24-2008, 09:17 PM
I am in agreement in that the style should be loose. People comment on my maps for using pen and ink + photos + 3D renders all together. The problem comes if one map of a region has very sparse small villages with a kind of frontier rustic feel and then a new megaplex of high magic is placed down in the middle as a city. It would feel absurd if there were no limitations.

You kinda want what the wikipedia has with its discussion forums. You discuss the changes, and in our case, new maps, before going ahead with one so that there is some overall acceptance of the idea. Actually we should take some pointers from the bigger collaborative web sites out there as, no doubt, they have been through all of this before.

ravells
03-25-2008, 10:20 AM
Here's an off the cuff idea. Generate a random planet using FT, and superimpose state bounderies on top of it. People can take ownership of a state and start mapping it, giving it labels and names etc. I guess the useful thing about using FT would be that you could get it to generate climate / rainfall /altitude and scale data so that the mapper would have something to start with.

I'm not quite sure what you would do with it afterwards.

GlennZilla
03-25-2008, 10:47 AM
I was just musing on Spelljammer with a folks in my gaming group. It gives me the idea that we could make the "world" a kind of interdiemensional network of connected worlds. No need for everything to connect geographicaly if we agree to use some kind of portal to jump to other worlds. The idea of Crystal Spheres and Spelljamming not required.

This would allow for wide variation in styles and map content as well as keep everything usable as one large setting.

ravells
03-25-2008, 11:10 AM
I just had a look at CeBeGia on the CBG forums, it looks like it's still in the discussion stage. And this is one of the problems (IMO) of worldbuilding by committee - the pace of actually doing anything is very slow because there are so many views to consider. If this is to just be a mapping project, then we could just start mapping (after being given a very rough overview map to work with drawn by one person (cough..Torq..cough) and some other sundry details. I think the act of mapping the world will start to give it a character of its own, as people will be able to feed off the information from other people's maps.

Torq
03-25-2008, 02:51 PM
I agree with the Fractal Terrains idea. Or some other worldmap generator that could provide basic geographical, heightfield and climate info, around which we can build. Glennzilla, the Spelljammer paradigm might be a little too fragmented. It might have the effect of creating 100 different mapping projects with little or no need for collaberation, instead of one common mapping project.

Other than a basic world map (which I'm not really qualified to do Ravs), what else would be necessary to start? Maybe a general consensus as to type of world, genre, brief history, broad cultural grouping, what else?

Torq

ravells
03-25-2008, 03:03 PM
I was thinking basic D&Desque fantasy as the genre most of us draw maps of. Apart from that do we need anything else? It would be quite good fun just to throw the project out there and see what people make of it. As people map their own bits, presumably they will see what others have done and try to interlock their maps with what is already there while adding their own stuff. If it doesn't work we can learn lessons for the next time, I guess. I'm just curious to see how the project would coalesce if everyone had a free hand and mapped with half an eye on the WIP of other people.

Torq, if you don't have FT, I'm quite happy to generate a map with it and draw some random borders on it so people have can 'claim' a territory and make a start. If there's a reasonable amount of interest we could ask Arcana to open a subforum for the project.

I think the important thing is to just do it and learn as we go along rather than trying to anticipate problems in advance (I know, I know, we're both lawyers, and this approach is anathema to how we're trained to think!).

Redrobes
03-25-2008, 03:06 PM
If people all map different and separate regions then theres no incentive to be in any particular region. For me the interest is in having an area mapped more fully than we could do so alone. Gamerprinter said that he would be reluctant to engage in vanilla worlds (areas). Whats required is to get one area up to the point where you can set a campaign in that place and have the incentive to map extra stuff for it, push back the borders, add characters and get story into it. Once your story is driving the mapping then its a breeze.

Its like populating a wilderness with people, you cant put down twenty individuals sparsely across the land. They will all die. You need a village and when its large enough a few of them venture out and start a new area. You gotta feel like your progressing and making something worthwhile. As soon as it feels like a chore or is so gargantuan that its scary is when people will desert the cause.

Maybe we should aim to make a single adventure. Then a single village / town then the area around that town with more adventures. Enough to sustain a few adventures and grow it out. The point here is that many people can come in and get a great deal out of it with little effort. Thats the kind of traction that would be needed to get people enthused to start or stay there.

ravells
03-25-2008, 03:22 PM
Well that just sounds like a question of scale in that we just start with a smaller scale and work our way outwards. But what I'm not sure about is whether you're saying that we need to have a full brief for the adventures that take place in the area before we actually start mapping? I guess I was thinking more in terms of a 'vanilla' world (if I understand the meaning aright) in that each person maps and world-builds his particular bit and then people make adventures out of that, so the emphasis is that it is a mapping project and not one which requires adventure writing.

RobA
03-25-2008, 03:25 PM
First time chiming in on this thread.

It almost sounds like what is needed is a "graphical wiki" where larger area maps are hot-linkable to more detailed maps, and so on... Or even like those map books of street maps where the NSEW pages "point" to the next map in that direction... Just being able to geolocate every map, providing the lat/long of each corner as well as the projection would go a long way to make this workable.

-Rob A>

ravells
03-25-2008, 03:35 PM
I'm not sure...I do feel like I'm in danger of hijacking Torq's idea into a different direction than was intended, so I'll remain quiet for a bit!

All I do know is that the my experience about multi-user projects like these is that people spend all their creative energy talking about the parameters and the technology etc and the danger is that it just gets bogged down in that and never actually gets started!

Torq
03-25-2008, 04:40 PM
No worries about hijacking Ravs. I think the idea was for this thread to be somewhat free-form. I think Redrobes has a legitimate concern, about spreading things to widely at the outset. In the beginning there will only be a few starters and thats to be expected, so we dont really want 5 people each choosing a region half a planet away from each other.

I suggest, knock up an FT world map with some borders Ravs. Then we can all have a look at it and use this thread to agree on a starting region, that we will all begin with. All that is needed then is a basic layout (which I'm happy to do) of that region and we can all select smaller areas that take our fancy and go for it. Only once these are done will the more zoomed in projects become available. Obviously as we go the idea will be for the debate to be ongoing about themes, common naming conventions etc. I agree that we could get endlessly bogged down in parameter details and this could easily choke the project, so I vote we just go for it.

Sure this approach will produce some vanilla, but it will also bring out the tastes of many other flavours, including some none of us have tasted before.

Torq

The Cartographist
03-25-2008, 06:57 PM
Torq - Great idea. I've been reading this thread with keen interest. I have a some thoughts:

- In your very first post, you suggested starting at the world/continent level and then slowly zooming in. Very recently, the discussion turned to starting with a smaller scale and then slowly expanding. I recommend starting at a small region scale--perhaps a map that is 100x100 miles. On it, include a full range of geography (coast, river, forest, hill, mountain, etc. - but don't name them) as well as the names of a couple of cities, perhaps several villages, a few strongholds of some type, and then a few other random locations to be mapped. In some way, allow people to volunteer to map whatever area/portion of an area/specific location that they want to. Track that, so people do not duplicate effort. Once a certain level of detail has been established, expand the base map in some direction.

- Everything will be a WIP. What I mean is that once someone has sufficiently finished their map, they present it to the Guild, and we offer recommendations for improvement, suggestions for names, etc. Additionally, the moderators could make ample use of polls to make decisions. So if mapper X called his city "Great City" and the Guild (via a poll) decided that they preferred some other name, the mapper would be bound to change the name to the Guild's preference.

- Polls to make decisions could occur regularly, i.e. if a question comes up that requires a decision, moderator X sets up a poll that will last for 72 hours. There could be multiple polls running at any one time for one or many different maps. Members of the Guild participate in the mapping and polling as they desire.

- The "world" grows organically in that people map what interests them. And if I see something in one of your maps that sparks my imagination, I might start mapping that next area immediately.

- I don't think that much central guidance is required except for setting the physical boundaries of the area to be mapped. The boundaries will be slowly expanded as the place is fleshed out.

- As maps are drawn, there will probably be other Guild members (or members from the sister sites) who choose to write material (whether gaming or merely background) for the various locations. This material will then contribute to the organic growth as ideas spring in people's minds, based upon what they read.


I really think that this type of project would work better in a wiki as RobA suggested. Although not just a graphical wiki, but a full blown wiki. Wikidot.com does free wiki hosting, although I'm not sure of size limits, etc.

I'll stop there, but I'll offer some more thoughts in the coming days.

ravells
03-25-2008, 09:12 PM
Excellent, I'll do it tomorrow....unless some FT fiend beats me to it before that! (which I would be quite glad of!)

Some nice ideas there Tim!

NeonKnight
03-25-2008, 09:29 PM
Excellent, I'll do it tomorrow....unless some FT fiend beats me to it before that! (which I would be quite glad of!)

Some nice ideas there Tim!

I'll reinstall and have up in no time ;)

NeonKnight
03-26-2008, 04:39 AM
Here are 4 quick world maps.

I personally Like Worlds 1, & 3, and I love world 4 the most

Remko1981
03-26-2008, 06:37 AM
Very cool idea!

Redrobes showed how this can be done in a video using various maps made by members.

http://www.cartographersguild.com/showpost.php?p=15401&postcount=16

Looks to me like a perfect start for this mapping endeavor.

Though i think it would be best if there no location names mapped out so people can fill that in for themself. For example if someone likes the project a lot but allready has a campaign world with named city's, countries, rivers, etc he wouldnt be able to use the map since we allready filled those in.
Maybe deliver 2 sets 1 with and 1 without location names.

Torq
03-26-2008, 08:33 AM
Well done Neon. I think you just earned the official title of "Getter of the Ball Rolling". I like all the world maps. My favourite is 2 though because I really like long mountain ranges that force divides between disparate cultures, but I'm easy. I think they would all make very good starting points. I'd love to hear what everyone lese thinks.

I dont know FM mauch at all. Can it export black and white heightfields?

Torq

NeonKnight
03-26-2008, 08:45 AM
Well done Neon. I think you just earned the official title of "Getter of the Ball Rolling". I like all the world maps. My favourite is 2 though because I really like long mountain ranges that force divides between disparate cultures, but I'm easy. I think they would all make very good starting points. I'd love to hear what everyone lese thinks.

I dont know FM mauch at all. Can it export black and white heightfields?

Torq

Maps were done in FT not FM.

They should do at the least a GRAYSCALE RAW file. Trying to see what I can do.

Something like this?

ravells
03-26-2008, 09:00 AM
Thanks NK!

The answer is yes, you can generate heightfields using FT. Go to: Tools/Show Other Shader/Bump Map.

I suggest that in addition to saving it as a hi res PNG a you also export it as a CC file and then save that as a DXF file, which will allow people who use vector programmes like illustrator (and PSP although not photoshop) to open directly.

loogie
03-26-2008, 09:18 AM
well, i wanted to bring up my idea in this thread, since we have very similar ideas..

basically i'm working on creating a user driven realm for roleplaying... where people submit their ideas and creations they make while adventuring in the realm... (for instance, you make a regional map for the realm in your campaign, you submit it, or you make a character, or a floorplan for an inn.. pretty much all your created works can be added) As more our added, other GM's will be able to use your works and build on them, etc..

I'm working for system inspecific (no dnd or any certain gaming rules) and striving to keep it free for non commercial use

i'm in the infancy of the idea right now... if you want to check it out or join, the website is http://www.projectowl.org

NeonKnight
03-26-2008, 09:21 AM
Thanks NK!

The answer is yes, you can generate heightfields using FT. Go to: Tools/Show Other Shader/Bump Map.

I suggest that in addition to saving it as a hi res PNG a you also export it as a CC file and then save that as a DXF file, which will allow people who use vector programmes like illustrator (and PSP although not photoshop) to open directly.

Well, I was gonna wait to see if people like the maps done, and choose one or make more and then provide the FT map and VCW and everything else

ravells
03-26-2008, 09:31 AM
For sure, NK. I just meant to say that finding as many formats that people could open directly in their software of choice would be the way to go and actually, CC / FT provides loads of options.

ravells
03-26-2008, 09:34 AM
well, i wanted to bring up my idea in this thread, since we have very similar ideas..

basically i'm working on creating a user driven realm for roleplaying... where people submit their ideas and creations they make while adventuring in the realm... (for instance, you make a regional map for the realm in your campaign, you submit it, or you make a character, or a floorplan for an inn.. pretty much all your created works can be added) As more our added, other GM's will be able to use your works and build on them, etc..

I'm working for system inspecific (no dnd or any certain gaming rules) and striving to keep it free for non commercial use

i'm in the infancy of the idea right now... if you want to check it out or join, the website is http://www.projectowl.org

Hi Loogie,

Nice looking site you have there. It would be nice if there could be some sort of cross over, but it is still very early days yet!

Ravs

NeonKnight
03-26-2008, 09:49 AM
For sure, NK. I just meant to say that finding as many formats that people could open directly in their software of choice would be the way to go and actually, CC / FT provides loads of options.

Yep, This'll be cool. Like I said, I like Map 4 the most, I like things with BIG inland seas etc.

So, Do people want to see a few more? How large a land size? Axil Tilt? % Water versus Land? Circumference, Rainfall, Warmth etc....

su_liam
03-26-2008, 03:19 PM
NK, my preference is map 4. 16-bit heightfield output would be appreciated if possible. The others are too clearly low frequency ridged perlin.

The first step is to come up with a global heightmap, I think, as NeonKnight did. Perhaps a competition: Everybody puts up a fairly high-res heightmap, preferably with the settings for their generator saved somewhere for higher-res output, if possible. Some basic global maps based off the HF can be used to sell the HF, but this would be more about the HF than the skills of the mapper. After, say, a month, people could vote on their favorite. This would also set a bit more of a schedule.

Of course, I've been working on HF creation lately so I may have an advantage. On the other hand I haven't found any I liked yet, so... Plus, you know, you folks with access to toys like Wilbur, FT, Leveller, L3DT, etc. may have a countervailing advantage :)

I'm primarily a scifi guy so I'll leave most of story dev up to youse guys.

Torq
03-26-2008, 04:41 PM
What I'd like to do is to use the heightfield, like the world map, as a basic area from which to choose a more local area for everyone to start from. I will then divide that area into a whole lot of quadrants and anyone who wants a quadrant can grab it and start mapping. I think that as we go down in scale, the original world sized height map will be less and less useful. Mapping on a more local level will in all likelihood require a new, more local heighfield, albeit based loosely on the global one.

For this reason I think we should grab one of Neon's 4 options and get going. Number 4 seems to be popular, so why dont we choose it and start. For general purposes and so as to to a basic schematic from which people can choose their areas, I would like a heighfield output Neon.

It strikes me that ome things will involve collaboration and communication between mappers. If for example Su-liam and I are mapping two adjacent quads and a major river flows through both of them, we will need to mkae sure the river eneters and leaves our respective quads more or less at the same place.

And another thing. Remember to keep all your maps editable. That means keeping all source files, and several saved earlier versions. Resolutions should be as high as your system can handle without making workflow impossible.

I vote we pick number 4. If I get a green light form you hungry mappers, and a heightfield I can start the process asap.

Torq

ravells
03-26-2008, 04:45 PM
No 4 is good with me!

Redrobes
03-26-2008, 04:50 PM
Id like to submit a few entries - maybe our first poll :)

NeonKnight
03-26-2008, 05:30 PM
OK, I have #4 saved as the FT map and from that can do everything requested, but I agree this is a GUILD project and I would like to see RedRobes contributions first. I agree a Poll, maybe with a 1 week vote time?

Torq
03-27-2008, 01:50 AM
I'm happy for a poll. How does one set it up? Might be something to consider: I'm not sure we can have a poll too often in this process as it might slow things up considerably when it comes to development if we poll whenever there is a decision to be made. But maybe as this issue is fairly fundamental to the project we should.

Torq

The Cartographist
03-27-2008, 03:35 AM
Torq - As long as the voting time for polls is short (2-3 days (?)), I don't think that they will impede the process of the project very much.

terrainmonkey
03-27-2008, 09:41 AM
is this project open to all CG folks? because i wouldn't mind getting in on this. NK's map number 4 has all kinds of possibilities.

RobA
03-27-2008, 09:44 AM
To create a poll, just start a new post and (near the bottom) use the check box for "post a poll with this thread" and specify the number of options. It shouldtake you into a poll builder after that...

-Rob A>

Torq
03-27-2008, 11:16 AM
The voting time should be short. I agree with 2-3 days. More importantly we need to get all the options in reasonably quick time, before any voting can take place. We've got NK's 4 options. Redrobes, Su Liam and anyone else who wants to, can you get something up on this thread within 48 hrs. No detail, jsut basic geography, heightmap etc on a planetary scale.

Terrainmonkey, its most definately open to everyone. Thats the idea. Once we've polled the basic planetary layout it will be a very short time beofre we can all get going.

Torq

Redrobes
03-27-2008, 02:44 PM
Will do. Apologies but Wednesday night is my XBox night... ;) I have a few maps already. Gimme a few hours and ill post a page with about 8 on there - all similar but with different shapes. I had to mod my little utility app to output in 16bit height map.

Redrobes
03-27-2008, 04:03 PM
Heres a page of thumbs to bigger pics (http://www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/ThinkBig/StartMap/ThinkBigStart.htm).

I can do more if people want them or feel that there might be a better pattern than those shown. I could make the edges all sea for example if required. Just takes a few seconds to generate each of them.

The color is programmable - this is just to display the general shape. All of them have 16bit height maps for them which I can dish out in HF2 or as a pair of 8bit images. These are 2048 but I can go larger if required or better yet is to take a small section and boost the res of that area to another moderately large res version.

There is no scale but should be treated as large / planetary. The mountains shown are not single mountains but areas that are generally mountainous. If these maps are planetary and were talking earth sized planets then a really huge mountain is still a few pixels across. Earths widest river would be less than a single pixel at these scales. Theres no erosion or any physical effects at this stage. That does take a lot more processing so if any of these are chosen then ill do it for the picked one.

I really don't mind whether these are used or we go for another but having a detailed height map can really speed things up.

ravells
03-27-2008, 04:27 PM
Just my two bits, but I think that Redrobe's maps look a lot more 'realistic' than the FT ones.

I particularly like the more fractured feel of the land masses which will make them easier to divide up into different areas.

Torq
03-27-2008, 05:13 PM
I agree that Redrobe's maps have a more "realistic" shape to them. I particularly like "B". I feel the mountains might need a bit more of a ridged look, but then again at this scale you aren't really going to make out ridges anyway.

Thanks for posting them Redrobes.

Torq

NeonKnight
03-27-2008, 05:17 PM
Here is world 4 with a more 'fractured' land mass, just a simple matter of playing with the slider

industrygothica
03-27-2008, 05:30 PM
Here is world 4 with a more 'fractured' land mass, just a simple matter of playing with the slider

I like this one. The diamond-shaped lake in the lower right has infinite possibilities, and to me, the lone island in the upper right screams to be populated by exiles and other undesirables; a nice out of the way place for a horror setting (my personal favorite) without mucking up the feel for the rest of the world.

ravells
03-27-2008, 05:39 PM
Here is world 4 with a more 'fractured' land mass, just a simple matter of playing with the slider

I know FT lets you choose relative landmass and ocean sizes...but FT worlds just (IMO) look like they've been created in FT. I can't explain how I know it, but if you were to put a selection of real world maps and FT maps in front of me, I can bet (a little!) money I'd be able to spot the FT one straight off!

NeonKnight
03-27-2008, 06:24 PM
I know FT lets you choose relative landmass and ocean sizes...but FT worlds just (IMO) look like they've been created in FT. I can't explain how I know it, but if you were to put a selection of real world maps and FT maps in front of me, I can bet (a little!) money I'd be able to spot the FT one straight off!

Ah well, to each their own. RedRobes Images to me do not look like a world to me. I look to see how the east/west come together and don't see it. Because of he square shape I can see the North & south really pinching, and the east west really stretching to form a globe.

That is not to say of course you are wrong and I am right. Just difference.

As sometimes the FT maps look all wrong to me, it's why I tend to gravitate to maps like #4 and not #3.

Redrobes
03-27-2008, 07:18 PM
These are easily fixed... (http://www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/ThinkBig/StartMap/ThinkBigStart2.htm). New page of 'D' with horz wrap and with / without polar stuff.

I am quite happy to go with an FT terrain if it can produce a really nice height map with above and below sea level stuff at 16bit. I don't know the app very well but I am sure it can do it.

NeonKnight
03-27-2008, 10:08 PM
Well I'll be the first to say, OK, I don;t really know what you are talking about with HEIGHT MAP :?:

Here is yet still another version of World 4 to show of the continental shelves and stuff I had hidden because of the light angle I had hitting the map.

Redrobes
03-27-2008, 10:37 PM
A height map is a greyscale image which for these world maps should be mid grey at sea level, white at the highest mountain and black at the deepest sea bed - or scaled within those extremes for whoever is the greater.

Ideally you need a 16bit heightmap because an 8bit greyscale image having pixel values from 0 to 255 is not enough height res to work with. For example, if a mountain was 25600 ft above sea level then each grey increment is then 25600 / 128 = 200ft which is horribly coarse. In 16bit that would have been less than a foot which is acceptable.

If you have a height map then you can do some excellent things. Firstly you can algorithmically generate a basic texture for it. Secondly you can start to calculate where the rivers will be. You can also calculate the approximate temperature based on height and determine where snow will be. Then theres erosion and start to have nice looking mountains, glaciers, vegetation etc.

Its not the be all and end all but it can cut the work of mapping a large area into a small manual and large compute process which suites me as I can do something fun like browse these posts while I calculate more terrain.

Look - why not have a play with this app and see what you think of it. Just press next to go to the next world and keep going noting down the number of any nice ones you see. If you press save then it will save the color and two types of height map in the same directory. One is HF2 which is 16bit and the other is just another BMP type image. This one puts the sea at black and mountains at white. The HF2 one contains the sub sea bathymetry also but the BMP is just the above ground height. We need the sub sea too tho to work on a map and at 16bit. Its a hacky bit of programming but thats why its free.

Actually I am pretty sure that you can import a height map into FT too. Try that out if your able.

The apps are linked here (http://www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/ThinkBig/StartMap/ViewingDaleInstantIsland.zip)

Airith
03-28-2008, 12:15 AM
Well I'll be the first to say, OK, I don;t really know what you are talking about with HEIGHT MAP :?:

Here is yet still another version of World 4 to show of the continental shelves and stuff I had hidden because of the light angle I had hitting the map.

That looks great neon, definitely a world to build from. It seems to have everything, giant lakes in some parts, giant mountain ranges in others, and enough sea for anything. Although there seems to be a mountain shortage or something, but that's just my thinking. It's probably more realistic then what I think though :P

The top right section of land looks a little... Squarish?

I can see so many spots I'd want to 'claim' though :D

ravells
03-28-2008, 06:31 AM
FT does produce Heightmaps (although i do not believe that these are 16 bit). As I said earlier you can generate a heightmap by going to: Tools/Show Other Shader/Bump Map.

FT can also produce normal maps (which is very cool) by using: Tools/Show Other Shader/normal map.

FT can also export as a CC drawing which in turn can be saved as a DXF or DWG file which is useful for people using vector graphics programmes.

From that point of view FT/CC is brilliant.

RobA
03-28-2008, 09:53 AM
Ah well, to each their own. RedRobes Images to me do not look like a world to me. I look to see how the east/west come together and don't see it. Because of he square shape I can see the North & south really pinching, and the east west really stretching to form a globe.

I think the real difference here is a random generation based on a spherical vs a rectangular mapping.

The FT maps are actually generated on the surface of a sphere and then converted into a rectangle, using a simple latitude->x and longitude->y mapping (which is why they are twice as wide as tall....). This has the side effect of making things from the polar region look smeared out horizontally (in much the same way that in many map projections Greenland looks as large as South America!).

Redrobe's maps, especially the later ones, are "seamless" are more akin to a toroidal mapping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toroidal_graph), where the tops wraps around to the bottom and the sides wrap around to each other. This rendering does not take into account a final spherical shape. This is, I believe Neon's point.

So Redrobes posted maps (the non seamless ones) are great for reflecting square areas of land, but do no apply well to the total surface of a sphere.

-Rob A>

ravells
03-28-2008, 10:08 AM
I think that's what I find I don't really like about FT generated maps, the continents seem to be long and thin - but as you say that might just be the projection. One odd thing I found with FT is that a mercator projection is returned as a square and not a rectangle - not sure why that is. I might have another play with FT to see if it can get rid of the 'long thin' look by playing with projections and parameters.

NeonKnight
03-28-2008, 11:37 AM
Here are some more 'projections' to eliminate the 'stretched out' landmass.

First is a Northern Projection (looking from the North Pole), second is a South Pole Look, and finally the world as if it was a 20 sided Die (nice as the 20 sided die is close to a sphere).

su_liam
03-28-2008, 12:33 PM
The Mercator projection is actually infinitely long in the NS-direction. You can't actually show the north or south poles in a conventionally-oriented Mercator map. The usual equirectangular projection is 2:1, as RobA says, because x and y map directly to longitude and latitude which range from 180W to 180E and 90N to 90S.

I'm kind of wishing we had waited a little longer before putting up the poll. I'm pretty sure both NK and RR had knocked off some quickie maps as a way to get the ball rolling. Also, I was hoping to put my own hat in the ring<waah>.

Oh well. It's still difficult to make high res zoom maps with pG. I see HandsomeRob generating 4880x4880 rasters from a small part of a larger world map. Until pG gets zoom capability that's problematic. My 8192x4096 renders take forever as it is, I don't want to have to create a 31 megapixel world just to cut ou a 4880 pixel square. Working on it...

ravells
03-28-2008, 12:34 PM
That's much better. Anyway...all of this is a sideshow - let's get on with the real mapping!

ravells
03-29-2008, 07:52 AM
Now, I've got to a fiddling (fatal these group discussions, I tell ya! :) )

Another advantage with using an FT map is that combined with Bryce it's a fairly easy matter to produce these 3d jobs, but I believe that Redrobes software does that too.

:Edit: actually there is a practical use to this gimmick - you can overlay the Temp / Rainfall / Climate shaders from FT on the 3d model and it makes it easier to see.

So first picture is altitude (default colours), second is Gaia shader, third is temp and fourth is climate.

NeonKnight
03-29-2008, 11:11 AM
Ravs....If I send you the FCT File for my world 4, could you make the same isomorphic examples?

ravells
03-29-2008, 11:27 AM
Sure, they just take seconds to do. You can download Bryce 5.5 for free - would you like me to talk you through the steps? (it's very simple).

NeonKnight
03-29-2008, 11:36 AM
Sure, they just take seconds to do. You can download Bryce 5.5 for free - would you like me to talk you through the steps? (it's very simple).

I would but today I have a BIG D&D Miniatures PreRelease Tournament in a hour, and then my Regular D&D Game with my buddies after, so I will be away all day.

ravells
03-29-2008, 12:53 PM
No worries, send me the files and I'll post up the isos. Good Luck at the tourney!

Redrobes
03-29-2008, 05:10 PM
..I have a BIG D&D Miniatures PreRelease Tournament in a hour, and then my Regular D&D Game with my buddies after, so I will be away all day.:o
You lucky chap !!!

NeonKnight
03-29-2008, 11:14 PM
No worries, send me the files and I'll post up the isos. Good Luck at the tourney!

BAck from my Tourney. Came in First (Yay!) going undefeated all day.

D&D Game was a bust as only three of us were there 1 DM + 2 players just won;t do.

I'll check in tomorrow to do the iso's (amazing how tired a mentally challengeing game makes one ;))

Torq
03-30-2008, 09:45 AM
Neon, from what I can see on the poll, your map 4 seems to be a big favourite. Can you post a final version of it from which to proceed. Those who are following this thread will know that the more popular view was that we should choose a smaller, more confined area of the world to begin the project. I would like to select an area which has central/northern European feel in terms of climate and vegetation. This seems to me the most obvious choice to begin for a rpg world and will include the most number of potential mappers.

I will then post a that section divided into about 20 quadrants. If you want a specific quad you just let me know and I will reflect your name in that quad. In this way I will continually update the map of the area so everyone can see whats available. Remember though that just because you map a certain area doesn't mean you will get to map all the detailed portions of that area too. The whole idea of this collaboration is to allow others to come on board and map individual areas according to their tastes and skills.

Torq

Torq
03-30-2008, 04:18 PM
This is what I had in mind. Obviously I hope to get a higher res map from Neon, which would indicate the landforms a little more clearly, but this is more or less the idea. The first picture highlights what I suggest may be a good starting area. The second shows the are zoomed in and divided into quadrants for everyone to select an begin mapping.

Looking at it now it becomes clear to me that much cooperation will be necessary with features that extend over different quadrants eg. rivers and mountains, so there will need to be discussion between the mappers of adjacents quads.

If the planet is approximately earth sized, can anyone tell me how big those quadrants would be more or less?

How about this for a bit of a teaser for the area, so as to get the discussion going?

"Two kingdoms, oreintated more or less North/South that have been warring since their tribal days thousands of years ago. The tide of conquest has pushed back and forth between them without either attaining major ascendacy. Both became kingdoms in their own right resulting in a powerful stalemate. Recently however (maybe 100 years ago) a mysterious plague swept through the border regions of both kingdoms, decimating the populations and almost destroying the economies of both. The recovery has been slow on both sides, but the time may be ripe for a decisive victory either way."

Torq

hans_worst
03-30-2008, 04:38 PM
The southern coast could be a mediterranean climate. While the northern inland sea probably resembles the baltic sea.

Torq's story reminds me of "the years of salt and rice". A great book where the European population is totaly wiped out by pestilence. (Instead of largely as it was in reality). The continent then later is slowly rediscoverd by Islamic and Budistic civilizations. Their look on our society is like the way we now look on ancient egyptians, Inca's, Maya's etc. Great book ;-)

Torq
03-30-2008, 04:55 PM
Sounds like a great story hans_worst. Who is it by? I agree with you regarding the different climatic regions that the portion of the map represents. Maybe the two kingdoms are divided by a big river and the pestilence was river borne. Just thinking aloud here.

Torq

NeonKnight
03-30-2008, 05:19 PM
Here are some images of World 4. Basically in FT I can flip/invert, change the Location fot he north pole, etc, etc, etc.

Additionally, other facts about the World:

Circumference: 25,200 miles
Highest Peak/Lowest Ocean 30,000 FT

Axial Tilt 20 degrees (can change to whatever, this affects of course temperatures)

Temperature based on Earth Orbit (base appears to be around 59 Degree Farhenhiedt)

Average Rainfall is 51 inches per year.

NeonKnight
03-30-2008, 05:37 PM
Main World view with additional details.

Shows Latitude & Longitude, with a Circumference of 25200 miles, each degree latitude = 70 miles (I like round numbers). And at Equator longitude = 70 miles (nice, eh?).

Following is the Mean Temperature map, and then the average Rainfall (light green = driest to orange=wettest.)

Of course the one thing I have yet to do is erode/place rives based on Heightmap.

Finally, for those with FT, here is the preliminary FTW map file.

NeonKnight
03-30-2008, 05:39 PM
PLACEMAKER FILE:


I need to run out to arrange some stuff for my youngest's 4th Birthday Party. I will do the rivers later when I get back (approximate 2-3 hours).

RobA
03-30-2008, 05:41 PM
Can you split it here instead?

That way the island chain will not get cut...

-Rob A>

Torq
03-30-2008, 05:43 PM
Thanks for the info Neon. If the circumference is 25 000 miles approx. then I make the zoomed in area about 3000 miles across which would mean each quadrant is approximately 500 miles across.

Varianc eof 30 000 ft from highest point to lowest would mean that the highest mountain peaks are about 15 000 ft.

Since the first version of map 4 is the one many voted for, perhaps its better to stick with that one. Do you have a bigger version?

Torq

NeonKnight
03-30-2008, 07:54 PM
Can you split it here instead?

That way the island chain will not get cut...

-Rob A>

Yep, that is no problem, just need to rotate the globe a bit to get it cut that way. ;)

NeonKnight
03-30-2008, 10:58 PM
This is what I had in mind. Obviously I hope to get a higher res map from Neon, which would indicate the landforms a little more clearly, but this is more or less the idea. The first picture highlights what I suggest may be a good starting area. The second shows the are zoomed in and divided into quadrants for everyone to select an begin mapping.

Looking at it now it becomes clear to me that much cooperation will be necessary with features that extend over different quadrants eg. rivers and mountains, so there will need to be discussion between the mappers of adjacents quads.

If the planet is approximately earth sized, can anyone tell me how big those quadrants would be more or less?

How about this for a bit of a teaser for the area, so as to get the discussion going?

"Two kingdoms, oreintated more or less North/South that have been warring since their tribal days thousands of years ago. The tide of conquest has pushed back and forth between them without either attaining major ascendacy. Both became kingdoms in their own right resulting in a powerful stalemate. Recently however (maybe 100 years ago) a mysterious plague swept through the border regions of both kingdoms, decimating the populations and almost destroying the economies of both. The recovery has been slow on both sides, but the time may be ripe for a decisive victory either way."

Torq

Here is your area a little more 'zoomed and detailed' including rivers (main rivers).

This covers an area 1350 miles east/west at the top of the image, 2616 east west at bottom of the image, and 2308 miles north/south.

Torq
03-31-2008, 02:12 AM
Thanks Neon. Is it possible to post a snapshot of that same area without the grid as well as the same area in greyscale so that those that wih to can incorporate the exisitng height info? I will divide it up and let people stake their claims and get on with the business of mapping.

Torq

NeonKnight
03-31-2008, 02:40 AM
Thanks Neon. Is it possible to post a snapshot of that same area without the grid as well as the same area in greyscale so that those that wih to can incorporate the exisitng height info? I will divide it up and let people stake their claims and get on with the business of mapping.

Torq

Here ya go

Torq
03-31-2008, 03:33 AM
Thanks Neon. Do you have a copy of the colour map section without the grid?

Torq

ravells
03-31-2008, 06:24 AM
It may be an idea to generate the heightmap at something like 4096 pixels wide and post it as a zip so people have a lot resolution to play with (particularly if the map is going to be carved up into smaller areas). I'll do the isos tonight with a bit of luck!

hans_worst
03-31-2008, 07:10 AM
Sounds like a great story hans_worst. Who is it by? I agree with you regarding the different climatic regions that the portion of the map represents. Maybe the two kingdoms are divided by a big river and the pestilence was river borne. Just thinking aloud here.

Torq

It's from Kim Stanley Robinson. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Years_of_Rice_and_Salt

DarkOne
03-31-2008, 11:32 AM
Before everyone goes crazy in drawing up maps. What is the mapping style so that the world map has a constant style through out all the higher resolution maps, like the way HandsomRob has done for Sorol.

NeonKnight
03-31-2008, 11:50 AM
It may be an idea to generate the heightmap at something like 4096 pixels wide and post it as a zip so people have a lot resolution to play with (particularly if the map is going to be carved up into smaller areas). I'll do the isos tonight with a bit of luck!

Here you go, though I am not sure if I got the dimensions proper:?: You seem to know a bit more about FT then I. You wanna do it, make sure I did it right?

NeonKnight
03-31-2008, 11:54 AM
Before everyone goes crazy in drawing up maps. What is the mapping style so that the world map has a constant style through out all the higher resolution maps, like the way HandsomRob has done for Sorol.

If I am not mistaken, this is a project whereby you, intrepid mapper can aid in the designing of a Fantasy World, utilising whatever mapping style you like.

As was suggested earlier in this thread, because all of us here have different mapping styles, we are not going to stick to any one style, but let mappers use their own unique styles. If you wanted to 'invent' a fictional persona (Like the Forgotten Realms Marco Volo for example) to be the mapper, feel free.

We are setting up a main world so there will be a cohesion between the various maps, but not necessarily the style.

Torq
03-31-2008, 12:01 PM
Thanks for the maps Neon, I'll have something up a bit later so that folks can start picking areas.

DarkOne, I second what Neon said about style. We are looking for continuos regions but want style to be up to the mapper. This way we are still forwarding the aims of this site and allowing as much freedom as possible for people to devleop their own techniques and styles.

Torq

DarkOne
03-31-2008, 01:37 PM
Thanx for making it very clear now what the intention of this project is. I and some others appreciate it. :)

su_liam
04-01-2008, 01:47 AM
This stuff looks yummy in Bryce. Too bad you can't apply displacement to spheres. That would look so badass. Maybe in Blender. Could do it in terragen 2 if I had the patience of a saint. Have to exaggerate the relief to see it from a full-sphere view, though.

ravells
04-01-2008, 05:18 AM
I was wondering how to 'terraform' a sphere in this way, but I couldn't work out how to do it apart from using a bumpmap on a sphere which doesn't really stand up to close inspection.

One thing for sure though and that is that the FT/Bryce mix makes really good mountain.

Torq
04-01-2008, 05:25 AM
I downloaded the demo version of FT for purposes of this project. I cant seem to save anything bigger than a postage stamp. Is this becasue its a demo, does anyone know? I'm trying to export the chunk that I have chosen, together with its height map, to about 3000 pixels. Any ideas?

Torq

NeonKnight
04-01-2008, 11:36 AM
I downloaded the demo version of FT for purposes of this project. I cant seem to save anything bigger than a postage stamp. Is this becasue its a demo, does anyone know? I'm trying to export the chunk that I have chosen, together with its height map, to about 3000 pixels. Any ideas?

Torq

Other than this line:


Fractal Terrains Pro
14-day demo

Fractal Terrains Pro gives you infinite worlds at your fingertips. FT-Pro will create any number of beautiful worlds based on your parameters. To create a random world, start from scratch or use real world data. Now's your chance to try FT-Pro for free!

Download Fractal Terrains Pro, and try it free for 14 days. The demo version has limited resolution export, and no real-world data, but is otherwise fully functional. After 14 days, you will no longer be able to save.

Redrobes
04-01-2008, 03:16 PM
Ravs,

Did you catch this thread...

http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=1746
(Edit -- fixed)

Any chance of getting me a bin heightmap ? Save as 'bin' with int tickbox checked ? From what I gathered theres no difference between the vert res of int and float and anyway 1m is alright for me. If your able to do this on any region then can you do my section (7 isn't it ?) plus a large border around it - half a tile at least... :) If you can do this then can you note down the size of the map saved carefully. Its quite hard to deduce that with a hex editor if you don't know the values and theres no header formatting to tell you.

I'm no FT guy, as you can imagine, but Waldronate knows FT better than anyone so if he reckons that there are some extra options to twiddle and it will make a big quality difference then it might be worth looking into at this early stage.

ravells
04-01-2008, 03:35 PM
Weird....bin isn't an option with the save as. There is a raw binary file option, but the extender to that is .raw - could that be the one you mean?

I did have a look at the thread you mentioned but it was technically way over my head.

:Edit: Ah, I think you posted your link to the wrong thread. I've read Walronate's comments on the thread where he created a beautiful world using FT and what he says there. I think the Raw Binary Data export option is only available for FT pro - which sadly, I do not have.

Redrobes
04-01-2008, 06:39 PM
Oh yes my link is duff. Dont know how that happened then. Ok maybe Neon can do this. Raw sounds like the right option tho - if it has a tick box for 'int' format then that will be it.

Anyone got the FT Pro ? Neon ?

NeonKnight
04-01-2008, 07:07 PM
OK I have FT Pro (version 2.3)

But no option for a BIN other than as a:

Raw Binary File (*.raw)

ravells
04-01-2008, 07:14 PM
I've got 2.2 (which I now believe is pro)...maybe Wald can help? The .raw has no .int tick box.

Redrobes
04-01-2008, 07:14 PM
Yes, RAW - thats the ticket. Can you save out the whole map with that, select the checkbox 'int' or 'integer' or whatever it has there. Note down the exact size it reckons its saving too !

And can you same again, as big as poss for my section 7 + a big overlap border - say half a tile ? That would be magic.

ravells
04-01-2008, 07:26 PM
just did it, but it's a 64 meg file (so I'll have to host the download elsewhere) and I've got to go to bed...sorry! I'll try and get it done tomorrow if Neon doesn't beat me to it first.

Redrobes
04-01-2008, 08:05 PM
Thats brilliant. Even at that size id like it. Remember that its RAW so theres no compression yet. Zip it and it should dramatically drop. If thats 4Kx4K then that would be exactly 64Mb file. No rush BTW - I wont be able to look at this much until Thurs now anyway.

Perfect. 8)

I can now think about some real terrain voodoo...

NeonKnight
04-01-2008, 11:06 PM
I'll leave it with RAVs.

Kagehito
04-01-2008, 11:14 PM
Ok so, since I've been gone for a while, I jump back into this thread and alot of stuff has happened!

So I have a couple of questions now that i grabbed a plot of land.

Do we have a standardized format for the map we need to make?

Standardized Size? pixles/inch? Or are we just winging it?

Also, I assume we are going off of the quick regional layout that was posted in the land grab forum, so i have the plauge lands. I'm i pretty much free to do WHATEVER I want in that region?

And are when doing "vannila" fantasy game setting?

Anyother info you guys have so i can start would help immensely!

-Rob

Kagehito
04-02-2008, 12:39 AM
Since the region that I choose seems to be the "heart" of the plaugelands... Should I assume that the plauge started there?

Backstory:
The lands now know as the Plaugelands, were once a rich forested region known as Galisfyr. Though, the hilly region was not know for having rich soil, and excellent crops, it was widly renonwed for its endless forests and abundent wildlife. What the Galisfyrians could not produce themselves, they sold the many furs of the animals hunted in the forests to trade for. The many pelts of the rare creatures the forests held garnered a huge amount of wealth and the eyes of many extreme hunters. Over 100 years of constant growth caused not only for the animal population to slowly dwindle, but for the forests to be cut down at an equal rate.

And that when it happened. Something apparently didn't take too kindly to the destruction of the forests and the animals that lived therin. At first, it was not obvious the plauge was on them, the first signs only showed that the animals were more rabid, and the forests a tad bit darker. Soon the inhabitants of the fringe communities started becoming sick. the strange sickness seemed to cause there innards to rot, and in the final stages, the skin to turn black and peeled away...

The King of Galisfyr tried to contain the plauge, burning all the communities infected and banning the intusion of the forests. But it was all in vain, for the plauge had already spread to the major cities. There seemed to be no cure, and no means of magical healing helped those infected. It was as if some unholy curse had be broughten down to all of the people who lived in the region.

The surrounding realms blockaded the region and allowed no one to enter or leave... the Galisfyrians all died trapped in there once paradise of a home. The region, now desolate, holds no civalized life. The remaining animals seem to have been twisted by the vial plauge and now attack the surrounding regions, spreading the plauge ever further.

and thats what I got so far.

Any additions, comments, deletions, or anything else anyone would like to note?

Kagehito
04-02-2008, 12:40 AM
*kills double post*

NeonKnight
04-02-2008, 01:38 AM
Well, I don;t really think there is a plague lands other than it was the musings of one of the members, but that said, it does sound cool so I say GO FOR IT!

Venardhi
04-02-2008, 03:41 AM
indeed, I was mostly just throwing out some ideas to get the ball rolling, but if you want to work with it, then let it roll baby roll.

The Cartographist
04-02-2008, 05:41 PM
But isn't that what this whole project is about? One member throws something out there that really intrigues another, who builds off of it, changes it to suit him or her, and then maps away. Others then feed off of it and the entire project grows into something that no one would have predicted at the beginning.

I say, way to go, Kagehito!

I guess then, NK, that "the musings of one of the members" is all that is necessary for it to be so.

ravells
04-02-2008, 06:28 PM
Thats brilliant. Even at that size id like it. Remember that its RAW so theres no compression yet. Zip it and it should dramatically drop. If thats 4Kx4K then that would be exactly 64Mb file. No rush BTW - I wont be able to look at this much until Thurs now anyway.

Perfect. 8)

I can now think about some real terrain voodoo...

Sorry Redrobes...bit of a problem, even zipped the file is 51mb. The only place where I can upload that is on my server's webspace but it keeps timing out. You live in the UK right? Why don't you pm me your home address and I'll burn it to cd and post it to you?

RobA
04-02-2008, 07:39 PM
Ravs-

Try one of the free (but annoying and often ad filled) file sharing site like:

http://savefile.com/ (great but only up to 60MB)
http://www.filecrunch.com/
http://www.badongo.com/
http://www.rapidshare.com/

(and for a much bigger list, I keep referring back to this one ever at the gamemaker forums: http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showtopic=190170&st=0&p=1325882&#entry1325882)

-Rob A>

ravells
04-02-2008, 07:44 PM
Ah thanks for reminding....I'd forgotten I had already registered with savefile...posting it up there now.

Venardhi
04-03-2008, 12:39 AM
Starting on my main map here and the scale is somewhat messing with me I think. It feels to me like a much larger area than it is, or maybe much smaller. . . perhaps I'm going crazy. Either way, here is my first few hours effort, which basically meant taking the 100x80 or whatever cube of my territory, uprezzing it about 100x and manually repainting the coastlines/lakes.

It'll need some tweaking, but wanted to get a few thoughts before I head back in for a few more hours.

note: Solivan Venardhi IV will be the 'pen name' that will go on all my maps and the drawings that will go with them. A noted scholar from the Orvaelian capitol's Academy of Arts and Sciences who has been burdened with the life-long task of mapping the territory by the Church, who wish to keep him out of trouble by assuring he has no time to make it in.

delgondahntelius
04-04-2008, 06:36 PM
My immediate seed once I heard about the plague lands was a dark circle of druids, extremists laying waste like to civilized lands... the second seed was (D&D terms here) was something akin to the Far Realms, or if you prefer, a lovecraftian realm where madness and chaos rule, has touched somewhere in the epicenter of the plaguelands... or, you could even spin those two together where the druids unleashed something they couldn't control or contain and now it runs rampant having killed and decimated their would-be controllers...

but since my area is on the edge and not the center of the labled plaguelands, I'll just try to mesh my mapping to whatever effects we finalize on it...

Midgardsormr
04-04-2008, 08:11 PM
Or they unleashed something they had no intention of controlling. Perhaps they created a nexus where a chaos realm and the normal world are merging. The overlay may or may not be spreading, but its influence is certainly growing...

Baziron
04-05-2008, 04:50 PM
My immediate seed once I heard about the plague lands was a dark circle of druids, extremists laying waste like to civilized lands... the second seed was (D&D terms here) was something akin to the Far Realms, or if you prefer, a lovecraftian realm where madness and chaos rule, has touched somewhere in the epicenter of the plaguelands... or, you could even spin those two together where the druids unleashed something they couldn't control or contain and now it runs rampant having killed and decimated their would-be controllers...

but since my area is on the edge and not the center of the labled plaguelands, I'll just try to mesh my mapping to whatever effects we finalize on it...

Thank God that we're mainly in for the mapping. That way we don't have to reinvent the wheel when it comes to setting - most of the suggestions surrounding the P.Lands I think to have heard before.
This is not meant negatively, though. Maybe the world's inhabitants are as uncertain and each have their own version. ;-)

delgondahntelius
04-05-2008, 09:16 PM
Thank God that we're mainly in for the mapping. That way we don't have to reinvent the wheel when it comes to setting - most of the suggestions surrounding the P.Lands I think to have heard before.
This is not meant negatively, though. Maybe the world's inhabitants are as uncertain and each have their own version. ;-)

Originality is over-rated, sometimes old tricks are the best tricks, can't teach an old dog new tricks, when in rome... that's all the cliche's I could think of at the moment... :D

The Cartographist
04-06-2008, 04:25 AM
Baziron - I'm not sure how to take your comments. IMO you can't do really good, believable mapping unless you have setting. Without setting, it's all meaningless. And I believe (Torq or someone else correct me if I'm wrong) that eventually the project will expand beyond "just" mapping--it will have to if we want it to have any relevance beyond our own little walls.

Further, I dare say that just about every idea out there is old and used--it is the execution of the idea that makes or breaks any creative project.

I look forward, assembled mappers permitting, to doing some of the writing and "world creation" for our shared world once it's gotten further along. [I'm a much better creative writer than I am a mapper.]

Baziron
04-06-2008, 05:06 AM
Baziron - I'm not sure how to take your comments. IMO you can't do really good, believable mapping unless you have setting. Without setting, it's all meaningless. And I believe (Torq or someone else correct me if I'm wrong) that eventually the project will expand beyond "just" mapping--it will have to if we want it to have any relevance beyond our own little walls.

Further, I dare say that just about every idea out there is old and used--it is the execution of the idea that makes or breaks any creative project.

I look forward, assembled mappers permitting, to doing some of the writing and "world creation" for our shared world once it's gotten further along. [I'm a much better creative writer than I am a mapper.]

I admit... those were not the best comments I have ever given. You're right in all regards, I think I just wanted to say that we're luckliy that we don't have to bother about originality too much since it's a mapping project (for now, as you explained).

That all ideas are old and used - as a linguist, I have too agree. For all that we say has been said before, that's why it's understood (short version ;-)).

Shame on me for commenting in such a way, given the fact that I also think of myself as being a better creative writer than a mapper.

Torq
04-06-2008, 05:26 AM
This is an interesting area for debate. In the heady days when I was an English major I had the privilege of studying creative writing under one of South Africa's most famous authors, J.M. Coetzee. His course was fantastic and he made us write short stories as part of it. In critting those stories he said the biggest failing of new or would be authors is to attempt to be original at every turn. He believed that most things in literature are derivative and that originality comes from the way you organise those things.

His view, with which I completely agree now that I am older and have taken a few hits from life's +3 slings and arrows, is that writing involves tricks, mechanisms and mechanical contructs that tried and tested by authors since the beginning of time, that hold no magic of their own. These need to be learned and used effectively in whatever genre you are writing. It is the effective use of these techniques that creates originality. To try to be original as the central aim of literature invariably results in disaster.

I dont wat to hijack the mapping project, but would be interested to hear what you all think. Admins feel free to shift this to new thread if you think it should be.

Torq

ravells
04-06-2008, 06:47 AM
I guess my thoughts are that as this is our first cooperative worldbuilding project, we get on with the mapping first and learn as we go along. If we had taken the route of collectively discussing the setting before putting pen to paper, we would still have been discussing the setting many months from now (which I think is the trap that the CBG fell into in their cooperative project). In any event I think it assists the creation process by drawing a map which in turn suggests cultures etc; it's a dynamic process.

Having a good project manager (that's you, Torq) is essential to keep the ball rolling. We might want to start a new thread on ideas for the general setting from selections of which you might synthesize into coherent and consistent prose so that people drawing their maps know what is set in stone and what is still under discussion - a bit like a 'settings' thread equivalent of the 'map images' thread that Airith posted earlier.

Having everyone pitching in with ideas is great but we still need someone to decide which of those ideas should be adopted if they affect other maps. Might be an idea that we make our own maps as editable as possible (eg. using a lot layers) to make amendments where we need to.

industrygothica
04-19-2008, 11:04 AM
So I figure there will come a time when someone wants to write something up, be it a person or creature, a single encounter, or even an entire adventure, when the question of rules will come up. Are we automatically assuming current d20 rules? While that seems the most logical to me, I'm sure there are others who would disagree.

Personally, I think it would be interesting to see the crunchy bits translated into multiple rules systems, just so the project doesn't discriminate. Of course, not knowing anything about other rules systems, I have no idea how difficult that may be.

Thoughts?


-IG

The Cartographist
04-19-2008, 11:48 AM
IG - My only thought would be that with 4E only 6 weeks away and, I assume, more than six weeks until the project reaches that point, shouldn't we just go for 4E? Or, like you say, probably both. And others. I think the more, the merrier.

industrygothica
04-19-2008, 12:49 PM
IG - My only thought would be that with 4E only 6 weeks away and, I assume, more than six weeks until the project reaches that point, shouldn't we just go for 4E? Or, like you say, probably both. And others. I think the more, the merrier.

I should have been more specific when I said "current d20 rules." I was actually referring to 4e.

I'm not familiar with GURPS or other RPG systems, but it'd be great if we could port the material so that it could be used by everyone.

Midgardsormr
04-19-2008, 04:22 PM
For my part, I'll not be writing any d20 / 4e crunchy bits because I don't play enough to know what works and what doesn't under that system. I am just fine with letting all of the development remain flavor text--most GMs can stat out anything they want to use easily enough.

Then again, I'm not opposed to anyone providing stats for d20 or any other system, either. Just so long as there are no expectations placed on us to do so, I'm fine.

Baziron
04-19-2008, 05:35 PM
I should have been more specific when I said "current d20 rules." I was actually referring to 4e.

I'm not familiar with GURPS or other RPG systems, but it'd be great if we could port the material so that it could be used by everyone.

I have access to a lot of GURPS Books (well... I need to check. They're with my brother, and he has bought the core 4th Ed books at least, rest is still 3rd. luckily, not too much did change.) as well as a lot of 3rd Ed D&D, should the necessity arise.

industrygothica
04-19-2008, 05:55 PM
I have access to a lot of GURPS Books (well... I need to check. They're with my brother, and he has bought the core 4th Ed books at least, rest is still 3rd. luckily, not too much did change.) as well as a lot of 3rd Ed D&D, should the necessity arise.

I think that if someone needed something translated into 3e rules, then they'd probably be better off doing it themselves. I can't imagine creating ports for every edition of every game. Gah!

NeonKnight
04-19-2008, 10:34 PM
Groam and the Plaguelands seems to lend itself immediately to the 4e Mindset of "Points of Light". The plagues have probably collapsed entire nations and communities have shut themselves off from each other fearing the variations of the plague and likely assuming most of the world has succumbed to the worst as well (think the first few episodes of JERICHO or the recent movie THE MIST). With the collapse of communcations little is known about the outside world.

I think this would work good as it gives us a part of the world to work with the PoL concept of 4e, as well as non-PoL sections that are not as hurt by the plague to still be more normal.

Torq
04-20-2008, 03:18 AM
Man, I hadn't even thought along the lines of Rules systems. I suppose you could say "how can you have an rpg world without games mechanics?" I just always imagined us stopping short of actual mechanics, to that the wrold could be "system agnostic". I've nothing against 4e, or any other system for that matter and I'm not the person to really properly deal with the issue.

I currently play a 3e variant called "Iron Heroes" which I love and Groam kind of matched the type of game that system envisages. System agnostic would be my vote, but thats just me. If you could set up a mechanically sound world for 4e complete with mechanics I'm sure it will be very popular.

Torq

industrygothica
04-20-2008, 07:50 AM
Man, I hadn't even thought along the lines of Rules systems. I suppose you could say "how can you have an rpg world without games mechanics?" I just always imagined us stopping short of actual mechanics, to that the wrold could be "system agnostic". I've nothing against 4e, or any other system for that matter and I'm not the person to really properly deal with the issue.

I currently play a 3e variant called "Iron Heroes" which I love and Groam kind of matched the type of game that system envisages. System agnostic would be my vote, but thats just me. If you could set up a mechanically sound world for 4e complete with mechanics I'm sure it will be very popular.

Torq


I like system agnostic as well, to be honest. I just figured that I'd throw the question out there because I believe it'll come up eventually, especially when we get down to detailing the smaller regions and individual buildings and such.

Midgardsormr
04-20-2008, 04:04 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with anyone statting out their creations in whatever system they prefer, or leaving them as flavor, as they see fit. That might lead to power imbalances, though, if one system permits things that another cannot easily handle. Still, that's something that could be cleaned up later, I should think. And if I do anything of the sort, I'll be using Fudge--"Good" and "Mediocre" should be easy enough to port to whatever system a GM decides to use.

The Cartographist
04-20-2008, 04:30 PM
I understand where the question came from, but I don't really think we need to stat it out at all. It could just be a fantasy world vice a fantasy rpg world.

industrygothica
04-20-2008, 07:11 PM
I understand where the question came from, but I don't really think we need to stat it out at all. It could just be a fantasy world vice a fantasy rpg world.

I'm with you on this, at least for the foreseeable future. I'm not convinced it won't come up again at some point, but the longer we can keep this thing in a neutral court the better off we all are, I think.

Midgardsormr
04-20-2008, 07:15 PM
Need to? Certainly not, but I also don't think we should stand in the way of anyone who wants to. I'd like to see things stay open for people to express whatever creative impulses they might have.

cmkinsac
08-31-2008, 01:19 AM
as I said in the other thread, I would be extremely interested in making this the world for my game, as it seems well thought out, and obviously made with expertise in Fractal Terrains. Part of making this the world for my game would be to understand the history of the world, which I will do in part by reading the rest of these threads, but also, perhaps, with some other help? Please consider it, as it would be a great opportunity for both parties.

Redrobes
08-31-2008, 08:44 AM
The CWBP world map is a community effort so your welcome to add to it. The world of art is licensed with a 'creative commons' type - see http://creativecommons.org/about. This means that you may use whatever you like from it and would not need to ask permission but there are a few conditions. The CC license is of type NC-BY-SA so that means Non Commercial - i.e. you cant sell it. BY is attribution so you should say where you got the map or who made it. And the SA means Share Alike so that if you use the map, modify and then present a new map based on these then the new map must also be CC licensed with the same NC-BY-SA where you should quote the original author and you add yourself to the list of contributors.

So if you want to make a mod for Oblivion and the terms of using the Oblivion editor don't compete with these restrictions and you don't mind making it and sharing it in this way you can do so and you don't have to get permission for any of the people that made the originals.

It would be nice to just be able to say here's a map, do what you want to it but public domain stuff has a tendency to become accosted by companies with enough money to keep lawyers and the works gets absorbed into their portfolio. When you have a CC licensed paper trail of the work then its much harder to do that and there are entities like the free software foundation and EFF which will fight for the works to stay free.

So CC licensing is a way to state that this work is free and its going to stay free. Its a kind of guarantee that you have the permission to use it and share it safely.

So really its down to the Oblivion editor licensing terms as to whether you can make a map that's free. If you can do what you want with any map you make with it then you can, if they restrict what you can do with a map made with it then you cant. If by copying a CC licensed map into Oblivion then Oblivion have rights to it then that's against the terms of the CC license.

cmkinsac
08-31-2008, 10:42 AM
No worries about the editor program itself, as there is no conditions to it about what I create in the program, and what I am making will be completely free, by Oblivion's agreement. (all modifications are non-commercial) Thanks for explaining the agreement, I just didnt want something to be taken without the community well aware of it.

Torq
09-01-2008, 03:30 AM
Thanks for checking cmkinsac. Also, nice explanation Red. As I said in another thread the idea of the CWBP and Oblivion finding common ground has me salivating.

Torq

cmkinsac
09-05-2008, 12:02 AM
I have been doing area maps, city maps, even structural plans, but I cant get the damned RAW file into Oblivion. I have everything design, modeling, and texturing figured out, but I cant get the map into the game. Any help here? Maybe someone that can transport it into Oblivion and send me the file?

MadCartographer
11-26-2009, 11:26 PM
A project like that was started along time ago by ProFantasy. They mapped most of Faerun. aka The Forgotten Realms. If you look on EBay, you can still find a used CD of it. It's called: The Interactive Forgotten Realms Atlas. I actually own one of the CD's and it has 400+ maps on it, all LINKED (drawn in CC2). Extreamly detailed work.

Here is the link: (project is closed) :(
http://www.profantasy.com/fratlas/FRAtlashome.htm

Here is a pic of Water Deep. This map has about 50 links to it.
Enjoy.

Redrobes
11-27-2009, 08:15 AM
I have a lot of maps from Faerun and it was these maps that drove me to start to make a mapping app.

The problem with them is that they are done for and licensed by wizards so that you cant add your own stuff to the maps or modify them and redistribute them. As such it is a natural consequence that eventually the project would stagnate because you have to rights to continue to improve it. After a short while and after I had mapped a few of the really small towns and found that later these towns had official maps made for them that I closed off doing any more mapping for Faerun. As an RPG game your supposed to fill in a lot of the detail and then you find that it becomes obsolete when the licensor modifies it.

It was a good product for its time - especially when everyone didn't have any (or a fast enough) internet connection.

Heres an old map I did of the sort I made before they changed them:

Jaxilon
04-18-2010, 12:35 AM
I would love to run around in the CWBP if it ever gets made into an Oblivion map.