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Hapimeses
03-12-2008, 05:18 PM
Hello all,

I stumbled upon this place entirely by accident, and it seemed worth having a look at, so I joined up.

My name's Andy, and I map. I thought I best get the Cartographer's Anonymous-thing out of the way first.

I've had a bunch of maps published here and there, but am best known for my work on WFRP and 40KRP. Examples of my stuff can be found at the following links (for as long as the respective companies keep them there):

Kislev - a country in Games Workshop's Old World (http://www.blackindustries.com/images/maps/kislev.jpg)
Erengrad - a city in Kislev (http://www.blackindustries.com/images/maps/city-of-erengrad.jpg)
Skaven map - runes on a rat skin (http://www.blackindustries.com/images/maps/rat-skin-map.jpg)
The Calixis Sector - from Games Workshop's Warhammer 40,000 universe (http://www.blackindustries.com/images/1280x1024/calixis-n-big.jpg) (strictly, this is a wallpaper of the map, but it was the only decent copy I could find online)
Freeport - City of Pirates (http://www.greenronin.com/freeport/freeport_map_big.jpg)

That should give you an idea. They were all done in Photoshop, and show a few different styles. I'm contemplating trying some new programs, but I'm not sure what yet.

Anyway, I'll go have a look around. Hopefully chat to some of you later.

:)

Andy

delgondahntelius
03-12-2008, 05:25 PM
Wow.. another professional mapper.... This site rocks :D


Greetings and Welcome Hapi, you do fantastic work and I'm actually familiar with the first one, the third one and the 4th one... I'm so happy to meet a cartographer with work that I've seen and admired, very pleased to meet you and I look forward to seeing more maps and advice on cartography and maps... tutorials are always fun to read and work through :D

Happy Mapping

Hapimeses
03-12-2008, 05:28 PM
Wow.. another professional mapper.... This site rocks :D


Greetings and Welcome Hapi, you do fantastic work and I'm actually familiar with the first one, the third one and the 4th one... I'm so happy to meet a cartographer with work that I've seen and admired, very pleased to meet you and I look forward to seeing more maps and advice on cartography and maps... tutorials are always fun to read and work through :D

Happy Mapping
Pleased to meet you to. It's always cool to meet someone that knows your work.

:D

NeonKnight
03-12-2008, 05:52 PM
Welcome!

With all these industry professionals running around I'm starting to get some serious map envy :o

Wah, wah, wah, wawawawaaaaaaaaaaaa!

thebax2k
03-12-2008, 06:02 PM
Welcome aboard Mr. Law. We actually had a link up to your work in our reference section last year (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=892). I hope you do get around to updating your website.

Your city maps are colorful and a joy to behold. Your tomb maps for Lure of the Liche Lord were incredible and filled with detail.

I hope your schedule and your patrons enable you to share more of your work with the Guild.

pyrandon
03-12-2008, 06:02 PM
Hi Andy: I too am familiar with your work; in fact, back a year or more ago when I first started mapping more than just here and there, but more as a "full time hobby", I spent a lot of time collecting admirable images for my own use as a learning tool. I have a couple of your maps in there (I'm not sure where I found them--never kept track). You, sir, are very talented!

Anyway, welcome to the Guild. I hope you give lots of advice, get loads of input, and all-around feel cozy and comfortable here. Glad you stumbled on in.

Hapimeses
03-12-2008, 06:05 PM
Welcome!

With all these industry professionals running around I'm starting to get some serious map envy :o

Wah, wah, wah, wawawawaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Thanks for the welcome.

:D

Hapimeses
03-12-2008, 06:09 PM
Welcome aboard Mr. Law. We actually had a link up to your work in our reference section last year (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=892). I hope you do get around to updating your website.

Your city maps are colorful and a joy to behold. Your tomb maps for Lure of the Liche Lord were incredible and filled with detail.

I hope your schedule and your patrons enable you to share more of your work with the Guild.
Glad you liked the LotLL maps -- they were a total pain to get completed for the deadline I was given. But, I was pretty pleased with the outcome.

As for the city maps: well, I learn a little more with every one I complete, so I'm getting better with every step. That said, I sometimes feel my software is holding me back a little, so I'm in the market at the mo' for trying out something new.

As for the schedule: well, I'm always busy. I don't just map, I also write (I've written for several WFRP books, for example), so my fretime is very limited, especially as my primary job is a housedad! That said, I'll try to drop in and stay in contact.

Anyway, thanks for the welcome. I'll have a wander around and familiarise myself with the surroundings.

:D

Hapimeses
03-12-2008, 06:11 PM
Hi Andy: I too am familiar with your work; in fact, back a year or more ago when I first started mapping more than just here and there, but more as a "full time hobby", I spent a lot of time collecting admirable images for my own use as a learning tool. I have a couple of your maps in there (I'm not sure where I found them--never kept track). You, sir, are very talented!

Anyway, welcome to the Guild. I hope you give lots of advice, get loads of input, and all-around feel cozy and comfortable here. Glad you stumbled on in.
Thanks very much for the compliments. I'm glad you like what you've seen of my work.

And thanks for the welcome as well. Seems a friendly place so far.

:D

The Cartographist
03-12-2008, 06:28 PM
Hapimeses - Welcome to the Guild. (This is where I usually offer encouraging words and tell people how great the Guild is, but frankly, I don't think that you need any encouraging words.)

Most of the inhabitants here are amateurs, although we do have a few professionals hanging around. Encouragement for our lesser cartographers and constructive criticism for all is the order of the day.

I'm sure that most people who post in this thread are going to gush about your work (I'm really trying my best not to), so get ready. I will say, in all honesty, that I think that your Erengrad map is the best fantasy city map that I've ever seen, hands-down.

I'll make a request that I think most people would agree with. If you are willing, a tutorial (or several) on how your make your maps would be greatly appreciated.

Hapimeses
03-12-2008, 06:35 PM
Hapimeses - Welcome to the Guild. (This is where I usually offer encouraging words and tell people how great the Guild is, but frankly, I don't think that you need any encouraging words.)

Most of the inhabitants here are amateurs, although we do have a few professionals hanging around. Encouragement for our lesser cartographers and constructive criticism for all is the order of the day.

I'm sure that most people who post in this thread are going to gush about your work (I'm really trying my best not to), so get ready. I will say, in all honesty, that I think that your Erengrad map is the best fantasy city map that I've ever seen, hands-down.

I'll make a request that I think most people would agree with. If you are willing, a tutorial (or several) on how your make your maps would be greatly appreciated.
Wow. High praise indeed. I'm honoured that you'd think that. The Erengrad map is a favourite of mine, but I really wish I'd been given more time to complete it (and to complete the other maps in the commission); I'm sure there is better maps in me yet.

:D

As for the general tone and direction of the discussion board, I'd pretty much gathered as much from a quick tour of the place, but thanks for making it nice and clear. I'll endeavour to be on my best behaviour.

;)

As for a tutorial or two? Really, I wouldn't know where to start. If I have the time, and anyone has anything they want to know, I'm sure I could rustle up something. That said, I'm not sure what people would want.

Anyone have any suggestions?

RobA
03-12-2008, 08:04 PM
I have to give the same praise for your Erengrad. I can't even imagine the process you would follow to get a coherent layout like that!

It is absolutely brilliant!

-Rob A>

rwaluchow
03-12-2008, 08:51 PM
Your work is absolutely stunning and definitely inspiring to this amateur.

Welcome!

Hapimeses
03-12-2008, 09:42 PM
I have to give the same praise for your Erengrad. I can't even imagine the process you would follow to get a coherent layout like that!

It is absolutely brilliant!

-Rob A>
The process for the entire map? Erk! That'd take a bit to explain. I'm kinda old school: I just draw everything. So, no particular area that you have questions about?

I'll have a think about what I could do to explain it all in a simple fashion.

Anyway, thanks for the praise. I'm beginning to really like this site.

;)

Hapimeses
03-12-2008, 09:44 PM
Your work is absolutely stunning and definitely inspiring to this amateur.

Welcome!
Thanks for the welcome.

:)

Redrobes
03-12-2008, 09:57 PM
Yup, no mistake those maps are really awesome. I have a tech question tho. What res do you start with for those maps. The Erengrad looks like it was considerable. I have heard (because I don't know PS very well) that with a lot of layers it eats memory like anything. Do you work on it in sections and paste it back together and fix up or all at once. I take it that theres a lot of layers involved. And do you use PS on a Mac or PC ?

RobA
03-12-2008, 10:33 PM
The process for the entire map? Erk! That'd take a bit to explain. I'm kinda old school: I just draw everything. So, no particular area that you have questions about?

I'll have a think about what I could do to explain it all in a simple fashion.

Anyway, thanks for the praise. I'm beginning to really like this site.

;)

OK, how about -
1) what did you start with? A layout in mind, or did you "grow" the city mentally (i.e. figure how the city grew and the population increased).

2) do you lay out areas first, or roads, or just start drawing buildings?

3) did you start as a scanned sketch then ink/colour digitally, or all in the computer?

(I figure as little sound bites, you might be willing to answer :) )

-Rob A>

Robbie
03-12-2008, 11:18 PM
I think workflow is the biggest question...for a map like that there's gotta be a well defined workflow or it would never come together so well...good job! Its phenominal!

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 06:11 AM
Yup, no mistake those maps are really awesome. I have a tech question tho. What res do you start with for those maps. The Erengrad looks like it was considerable. I have heard (because I don't know PS very well) that with a lot of layers it eats memory like anything. Do you work on it in sections and paste it back together and fix up or all at once. I take it that theres a lot of layers involved. And do you use PS on a Mac or PC ?
Thanks, I'm glad you like the maps you've seen.

To answer your questions:

1) The Erengrad map's original resolution is 3750x2650, designed to be printed at 400dpi.
2) Yes, there are about a gazillion layers, and it does eat memory up, but my computer can handle it, so don't really have any issues here.
3) I fix it up all at once.
4) I use a PC.

Cool, anything else?

:D

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 06:20 AM
OK, how about -
1) what did you start with? A layout in mind, or did you "grow" the city mentally (i.e. figure how the city grew and the population increased).

2) do you lay out areas first, or roads, or just start drawing buildings?

3) did you start as a scanned sketch then ink/colour digitally, or all in the computer?

(I figure as little sound bites, you might be willing to answer :) )

-Rob A>
1) I had a layout in mind when I began. The city was already described, all I had to do was realise the written version. Normally, I'd do things a little differently, but Erengrad is a special case, as large sections of it have just been rebuilt, much of it without any serious planning.

2) I started with the contours of the land first, marking the high areas and low areas, and marking the coastline and riverbanks. After colouring it all appropriately, I moved on to sketching the locations of each major district, then added the locations of each major landmark. After that, I filled the details in block by block until the map was finished. I then added the key and title box. Basically, I built it from the ground up, if that makes sense?

3) Although I used to work from drawn sketches, I ditched that some time ago. Now pretty much all my work is 100% digital.

And, yes, quick soundbites certainly is easy.

:D

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 06:21 AM
I think workflow is the biggest question...for a map like that there's gotta be a well defined workflow or it would never come together so well...good job! Its phenominal!
Glad you like it.

:D

As for the workflow, is there anything you'd specifically like to know?

alucard339
03-13-2008, 07:05 AM
Glad to get you here,
This year, we are getting more and more members and from those members, many have some professional experience, which is really awesome.

For myself, I was familiar with the Freeport city because we've play in it.
I like it, but from your first post, I have to say that I prefer the Erengrad - a city in Kislev better. You can see that you really put a lot of effort in it and it got that look that make you wana walk in the street and play in that city. Yesterday evening, my players ask me to incorporate Erengrad plus any other map like it into my world so they could go visit them ;).

I really like also the effectiveness and the simplicity of this map:
Kislev - a country in Games Workshop's Old World. The only point for me would be to have used a kind of either shadow or blurry effect on the cartouche (the Kislev name and scale) at the bottom right to made it stand out of the mountains more.

I only hope to be able to do great stuff like urs someday.

Also take note that you are not obligated to say thanks back to us all for the praises we're giving you, because we all know that they are more than deserve.


Hope to see more of your WIP and to learn from ur technique,
Alu.

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 07:52 AM
Glad to get you here,
This year, we are getting more and more members and from those members, many have some professional experience, which is really awesome.

For myself, I was familiar with the Freeport city because we've play in it.
I like it, but from your first post, I have to say that I prefer the Erengrad - a city in Kislev better. You can see that you really put a lot of effort in it and it got that look that make you wana walk in the street and play in that city. Yesterday evening, my players ask me to incorporate Erengrad plus any other map like it into my world so they could go visit them ;).
Heh! I'm happy the maps are inspiring people to play. That's what they're for, after all. Much like you, I prefer the Erengrad map -- that said, I've also had mails from people who claim to prefer the Freeport map, so horses for courses, I suppose. We all have our favoured styles.


I really like also the effectiveness and the simplicity of this map:
Kislev - a country in Games Workshop's Old World. The only point for me would be to have used a kind of either shadow or blurry effect on the cartouche (the Kislev name and scale) at the bottom right to made it stand out of the mountains more.
That was a matter of stylistic choice. If I'd added some shadows or similar, it would have looked a little more separate from the map -- above it, if you will -- and computer generated, which wasn't part of the design goals. That said, I do accept the point, and reckon I could have done more to clarify that area. But, it works as is, and when you're working to a deadline, compromise is a constant bedfellow.

As a point of interest, the Kislev map took almost twice as long to complete as the Erengrad map. Simplicity isn't always so simple. All the little details took an age!


I only hope to be able to do great stuff like urs someday.
Well, as I say to my daughter: 'practice makes perfect'.

:D


Also take note that you are not obligated to say thanks back to us all for the praises we're giving you, because we all know that they are more than deserve.
Yes, true, but if people are willing to take the time to say 'well done', I'm willing to take the time to say 'thanks'. It seems only polite.

:D


Hope to see more of your WIP and to learn from ur technique,
Alu.
Well, we'll see. I'm not so sure what my technique is. I just kinda grab my pen and draw, if you see what I mean? I don't really use much in the way of filters or textures or special brushes -- I just draw what I want, where I want it.

If I have the time, I'll see if I can figure out a way of showing you want I mean.

:)

RobA
03-13-2008, 11:49 AM
OK - Here is a quick one...

Do you freehand all the buildings and walls, or do you use line and polygon tools?

If freehand - can you share any techniques for drawing orthogonal building shapes that are situated at an angle on a map that keeps them orthogonal (rather than squished diamond shapes)... rotating the image, rotating the tablet, etc.?

(and this will be my last question, honest :) ...at least for now...)

-Rob A>

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 12:18 PM
OK - Here is a quick one...
Okay, I'm listening.


Do you freehand all the buildings and walls, or do you use line and polygon tools?
I freehand everything.


If freehand - can you share any techniques for drawing orthogonal building shapes that are situated at an angle on a map that keeps them orthogonal (rather than squished diamond shapes)... rotating the image, rotating the tablet, etc.?
Erm, I'm really not sure what to say here. I just draw 'em and they look as they should. No rotating of either canvas or tablet. Much as if I had a piece of paper in front of me, I could draw a rectangle at any angle and it would look like a rectangle. Of course, spinning the paper would make it easier, but (for me, at least), not all that much easier. I suppose I must just have a good eye or something.

The reason I do it all freehand is because I find it looks less computer generated because my hand isn't perfect -- which is a goal of mine on most of my maps -- and it's quicker (on a smaller scale, at least, which those buildings, tents, and the like are).

If I'm doing modern or futuristic maps, I tend to use more tools, just for the visual effect.

Sorry I'm not much help here.


(and this will be my last question, honest :) ...at least for now...)

-Rob A>
Really, ask as many as you like. I don't mind. I'm more than happy to answer anything you want to know. That said, judging by my last answer, I may not be much help.

:D

RobA
03-13-2008, 03:24 PM
Sorry I'm not much help here.

Oh no, that is helpful. Sadly, I have realized that technology can only take a person so far...at some point actual artistic ability is necessary :P ;)

-Rob A>

delgondahntelius
03-13-2008, 03:44 PM
I've got a question...

So, Andy, how does it feel to be worshipped as a mapping GOD?? lol.. heh, I could see it coming too, sorry I didn't give you a warning, not about what was coming .. but the sheer attitude and strength of the praise about to engulf you....

As for some tutorials, I'd like to see how you do those mountains, to me, mountains on an overland map are always the hardest, I don't know why. I'm doing several maps for a book that I and my wife have written, and the deadline is getting closer and closer... unfortunately, I've got to put them in B/W... well, greyscale anyway. I posted (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=1637)some of the mountains I have already which (surprisingly) got easier each time I set one up for a brush... but any advice would be inspiring and helpful.

And any tutorial you have on mapping tricks would be cool too... any cool map effects you might have done, or ways you've sped up some processes. I dunno, yer the pro.. you tell us :D

I also have to gush a bit, the Erengrad map is truly one the best city maps I've ever seen... but somehow, I think you already know this... will we see any of your current maps you've done or have been working on? The personal ones, not the commercial ones ... I'd love to see even more of your work

Redrobes
03-13-2008, 04:31 PM
The Erengrad map's original resolution is 3750x2650, designed to be printed at 400dpi.

Thanks. If I get the map from the link you posted then its almost that size already. When I size exactly to those dimensions and look at it close I get this below. Is this really the kind of res that you are working with when you draw it ? I can't imagine how hard that must be to work at this res. It looks like its antialiased and has phenomenal detail for such a small number of pixels. I don't think I could even begin to dream about anything like that unless it was more like 37.50 inches at 400 dpi (not that I have the artistic capability even then) :P

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 05:32 PM
I've got a question...
Sure, go for it.


So, Andy, how does it feel to be worshipped as a mapping GOD?? lol.. heh, I could see it coming too, sorry I didn't give you a warning, not about what was coming .. but the sheer attitude and strength of the praise about to engulf you....
Heh! I manage somehow.

;)


As for some tutorials, I'd like to see how you do those mountains, to me, mountains on an overland map are always the hardest, I don't know why. I'm doing several maps for a book that I and my wife have written, and the deadline is getting closer and closer... unfortunately, I've got to put them in B/W... well, greyscale anyway. I posted (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=1637)some of the mountains I have already which (surprisingly) got easier each time I set one up for a brush... but any advice would be inspiring and helpful.
I trust you mean the mountains from the Kislev map? They were really easy, I'll make a post about that in a bit. I'll see if I can rustle up an image to support what I type.


And any tutorial you have on mapping tricks would be cool too... any cool map effects you might have done, or ways you've sped up some processes. I dunno, yer the pro.. you tell us :D
I'll admit, I'm a little unsure what to say. It's far easier to ask than it is to come up with something, if you see what I mean? We'll start with the mountains, and if you spot anything else you'd like to know about, I suppose we can move on from there. My problem is that none of my mapping 'tricks' seem all that special to me, so picking out something is pretty hard.

As for speeding things up -- well, I don't really. I'm a bit old-fashioned with my maps: I just draw it all. Sometimes, that just takes time.


I also have to gush a bit, the Erengrad map is truly one the best city maps I've ever seen... but somehow, I think you already know this... will we see any of your current maps you've done or have been working on? The personal ones, not the commercial ones ... I'd love to see even more of your work
Thanks, glad you like it. As for my own maps, I may post a few later, but I rarely have time for anything bar commissioned work these days, which is a shame.

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 05:38 PM
Thanks. If I get the map from the link you posted then its almost that size already. When I size exactly to those dimensions and look at it close I get this below. Is this really the kind of res that you are working with when you draw it ? I can't imagine how hard that must be to work at this res. It looks like its antialiased and has phenomenal detail for such a small number of pixels. I don't think I could even begin to dream about anything like that unless it was more like 37.50 inches at 400 dpi (not that I have the artistic capability even then) :P
Yeah, that's not far off the size I was working at. The jpeg on BI's site has the quality reduced a little. One of the joys of working to a commission is that I have a fixed resolution I must work to, and if that means working in tiny detail, then so be it. I drew a fair bit of this map zoomed in at 300%,

I've attached a .gif segment of the original res (or near as damnit) for you to compare it to.

:D

overwatch
03-13-2008, 05:47 PM
Itís awesome to see you and your work on this forum. Iím a big fan! POST MORE!

Cheers!

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 05:53 PM
Oh no, that is helpful. Sadly, I have realized that technology can only take a person so far...at some point actual artistic ability is necessary :P ;)

-Rob A>
Heh! Yuppers, it does kinda help, I suppose.

;)

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 05:53 PM
Itís awesome to see you and your work on this forum. Iím a big fan! POST MORE!

Cheers!
Glad you like my stuff. I'll see about posting some more later.

:)

delgondahntelius
03-13-2008, 06:14 PM
I'll admit, I'm a little unsure what to say. It's far easier to ask than it is to come up with something, if you see what I mean? We'll start with the mountains, and if you spot anything else you'd like to know about, I suppose we can move on from there. My problem is that none of my mapping 'tricks' seem all that special to me, so picking out something is pretty hard.

As for speeding things up -- well, I don't really. I'm a bit old-fashioned with my maps: I just draw it all. Sometimes, that just takes time.

Yes, I do understand that. It is far easier to ask than it is to produce something. So to give you an idea, you can start a tutorial on making a city map... just go step by step as you create a city and show us how it's done... you don't have to create a city like those ... just a simple one that gives us poor amateur's something to try and emulate...

or is that still too ... generalized?

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 10:07 PM
Yes, I do understand that. It is far easier to ask than it is to produce something. So to give you an idea, you can start a tutorial on making a city map... just go step by step as you create a city and show us how it's done... you don't have to create a city like those ... just a simple one that gives us poor amateur's something to try and emulate...

or is that still too ... generalized?
A little too generalised, perhaps, as there would be a lot of work involved with that, and it would take a long time to complete. Short tutorials fit into my schedule better.

Anyway, I'm uploading the tutorial for my simple mountains now, so you can see if that helps at all.

:)

Hapimeses
03-13-2008, 10:48 PM
As requested, I've now posted a step-by-step tutorial for drawing simple mountains. You can find it here (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=1669).

I hope it helps someone.

:)

StillCypher
03-14-2008, 02:40 PM
Really, really amazing work. I'll have to join the throng of "Map Enviers" (is that a word?) here! :) I'm really looking forward to seeing more, and to seeing some tutorials.

Just... wow!

Hapimeses
03-15-2008, 03:33 PM
Really, really amazing work. I'll have to join the throng of "Map Enviers" (is that a word?) here! :) I'm really looking forward to seeing more, and to seeing some tutorials.

Just... wow!
Thanks very much. I'm glad you like my stuff, I'll see about posting more as the weeks go by.

As for some tutorials, as I mentioned in my last post, the first one is already up.

:)

pyrandon
03-15-2008, 10:37 PM
And the award for longest Member Introduction thread, currently clocking in at 4 pages and counting, goes to [drumroll please].....

;)

Hapimeses
03-16-2008, 12:00 AM
And the award for longest Member Introduction thread, currently clocking in at 4 pages and counting, goes to [drumroll please].....

;)
Yeah, well, it has been boosted along a little by my seemingly irrepresible need to answer to everyone that posts here.

Much as this post attests to.

;)

ravells
03-24-2008, 09:57 AM
Absolutely beautiful maps, Andy. I'm so glad you've decided to join our band! I have to say I'm in the minority school of preferring the Freeport map to the Erengrad map, but they are both absolutely beautiful. I've always really rated Warhammer 40k artwork, and your Calixis sector map is a joy.

Hapimeses
03-24-2008, 11:34 AM
Absolutely beautiful maps, Andy. I'm so glad you've decided to join our band! I have to say I'm in the minority school of preferring the Freeport map to the Erengrad map, but they are both absolutely beautiful. I've always really rated Warhammer 40k artwork, and your Calixis sector map is a joy.
Thanks. It's always good to find someone else that like the Freeport map in preference to the Erengrad one. You're not alone, many people have told me much the same thing (especially those playing in the Freeport setting!). That said, Erengrad certainly does seem to be more popular.

Personally, I think I prefer the map of the Freeport islands and continent from the same book, but I've not spotted that one online anywhere yet, and I've not posted it into my (pretty pathetic) gallery. I did a few things a little differently on that map, and I was pretty pleased with some of the end results.

Oh, and thanks for the compliments regarding Calixis as well. It was a pretty big undertaking, and it's good to see it was well-received not just by fans of the game and Games Workshop, but by others as well. I couldn't really ask for more than that.

:)