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torstan
01-09-2012, 11:33 AM
So Wizards seem to have learned from Paizo and are going to talk to the community and hold semi-open playtests to help design 5e. Interesting, and even more interesting to see something close to an admission that they fluffed 4e.

Wizards announcement (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120109)
NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/arts/video-games/dungeons-dragons-remake-uses-players-input.html)
Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidewalt/2012/01/09/wizards-announce-new-dungeons-and-dragons-an-inside-look-at-the-game/)
ENWorld (http://www.enworld.org/forum/news/316036-off-see-wizards-day-wizards-coast-showed-me-d-d-5th-edition.html)

They're worth a read if you have an interest in the direction the hobby's taking. Some great teasers in there about the modular nature behind the new ruleset.

ravells
01-09-2012, 11:55 AM
Ah yes, another system....which is really an excuse to sell more stuff. One would have thought D&D's system would be refined to near perfection after 25 years and a colossal amount of feedback.

I have no qualms about WoTC selling stuff, I just wish they were a little more honest about the reasons!

Gamerprinter
01-09-2012, 12:12 PM
I hope WotC can survive as a company, as I don't wish to see D&D die. That said, I already have my game system of choice and have no needs for another rendition of D&D, no matter how well they fix it. As someone in the publishing industry, I doubt an OGL will be made available, which is another reason not to consider it. Good luck for them, though.

Edit: I just read (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/9329-Speak-Your-Mind-in-the-Next-Version-of-Dungeons-Dragons.2), that something like an OGL is being considered - which is hopeful (still doesn't draw me in to want to play, but...)

Djekspek
01-09-2012, 01:03 PM
interesting stuff, thanks for posting! Very curious what they will come up with ( I mostly play 3rd as our main campaign runs already for 11 years (just finished last week, we finally killed the bad guy :D ), but our newer campaigns run 4th). As ravs said, a 'modular' system sounds like a coin-making-system, but if they come up with an OGL then that would make me (and other cartographers as well I bet) very happy :) cheers, DJ

torstan
01-09-2012, 01:56 PM
They're explicitly trying to involve the wider community and that means they need to have an open license that allows for third party content. I'd be amazed if they don't have an OGL before release.

tilt
01-09-2012, 02:37 PM
I'm hoping for OGL as well as I guess most of us in here are ;) ... and I've signed up for testing. I think its a good initiative lets hope they can live up to the promises - sometimes the big companies tend to forget the consumers along the way no matter their initial intentions.
And yes, that will mean more books to buy but they are a company after all and I don't see Paizo holding back on publishing things either - one gotta survive even as the publishing world is getting both simpler and more complex day by day :)

oh, and the fact the Monte Cook is back is good too ;)

maxsdaddy
01-09-2012, 08:21 PM
I invested heavily in the 4e books (though I found some great sales on them at various bookstores that were going out of business). I like the play lite nature of 4e but have found myself going back to the OGL d20 time and time again. Think I'll visit some stores and do a Snoopy/vulure imitation, and wait for 4e to pass away. My son, who is starting his own campaign with a new group, I think would be better served using d20 rules. It's not the cost of the product that burns me.
I love a well made, nicely illustrated book. And I don't mind paying for it. But I do mind the marvel/dc comics lets fleece the consumer feel of switching it up every two years.

tilt
01-10-2012, 02:18 AM
agree about the system switch thing - if you do that to often its annoying (4e came in 2008 so thats only 3 years).
I don't mind buying supplemental books - quite the opposite - love to delve into new professions, races, skills and powers - but I stopped buying when they got out Essentials ... at first because I didn't think it was an expansion but rather the game again for new players, later cause I didn't want to confuse the rules anymore. We have actually discussed if we would have been better of just playing with the three basic books, especially considering some of the later races, professions and powers seems a little powerful compared to the initial ones ;)

Lukc
01-10-2012, 04:52 AM
I quite agree, this is really quick turnaround. When 4E came out were quite enthusiastic, but after playing with it for about 3 years we drifted back towards a simpler, fewer options version. With all the powers and abilities that started coming out nobody knew how the rules worked anymore! Now we run a stripped down d20 analog version with horribly mortal characters and it's quite fun.

I'll keep abreast of this 5E, though!

leleyx
01-10-2012, 05:08 AM
Well, when I came back to RPG after a 15 year hiatus, I tried out 4e, while fun I thought it over simplistic, then I tried 3.5 and it was a little too complicated and when you add all the splatter books, it gets quite broken, I've since moved to Pathfinder (though my group works a system of rotating GM, so who knows what you get to play?).
Anyway, the possible death of 4e won't bother me much, and if the new edition can come back to a more role playing game, it will be a welcome addition I look forward to trying out!

jfrazierjr
01-10-2012, 10:12 AM
Well.. for WoTC, it's about more than just selling books for the sake of selling books. At the root, 4E did not sell anywhere near as many books as was expected since a large group of people could not get over the changes to the game. There was a large focus on making the rules simple enough for new people to be able to pick it up and play fairly quickly(which I think they mostly succeeded at), but that came at the cost of many older customers who "knew" the old way and did not want to play a simpler game. Many of their customers ended up moving to other game systems. This feed into point two, where not enough customers subscribed to their digital initiative. There are many reasons for this. There were issues with "computer game" licenses which was "one" reason why the gametable was not originally released in the expected time frame. This further alienated some customers who stopped their spending which reduced R&D budget, which caused people to stop spending, which reduced R&D budget, etc. Add into this the global recession and well, money became quite tight, so promises made could not be kept.

I currently play a 4E game and also run one(on a monthly rotating DM schedule, so I GM about 5-6 times a year and play about the same). When 4E originally came out, I loved it's simplicity over 3.5(also note, we were playing with custom Magic rules using the Elements of Magic rules from EN Publishing) and the fix of things that were just horribly wrong with previous versions. Now, after several years, I am feeling a bit constrained and thinking of something else for the campaign I GM, namely thinking of switching the characters over to Savage Worlds instead. Pathfinder would not work for our group since half of the players are casual players and just don't have the time or desire to become experts on their character(which is where 4E "mostly" shines IMHO) and the game in general. For example, when I am playing, my turn rarely takes more than 20-30 seconds since I know my character so well(it also helps that I am a leader so heal and buff are what I do and it's fairly easy to see who needs health or might need extra hitting power or defenses for that coming round). But if I have to also play someone elses character(as I did this last session), it probably took me 5 times that since I was trying to both determine what that character can do at the same time as paying attention to what was happening on the battlemat. We were fighting a creature that could turn invisible and he was in a zone(debuff's him and opposes penalties to whom he can attack), so I had to keep watch to make sure that he stayed in the zone by using powers that would slow, immobilize, or blind him(while other people's powers would also do one or more of those same effects for a short duration.

Larb
01-10-2012, 04:35 PM
I tried 4e, played three campaigns, but it wasn't really my thing for many reasons I won't go in to. I'm interested in 5e, and a few friends of mine are also interested, so if it it an open playtest type deal like they say, we'll be giving it a try.

Thing is though, I'm not sure what they hope to achieve with 5e. From what I can tell, 4e fans like the 4e style of play, and fans of 3e like 3e and either still play that or play Pathfinder. Some have said they hope to bring back players who preferred the older systems, but I'm not sure if they can do that without a compromise no one is happy with. I don't know, we will see. I will give it a try and draw my conclusions then.

Master TMO
01-10-2012, 04:48 PM
I lost my gaming group when I moved a few years ago, and have never been able to find another one. There have been a few attempts to start up online groups, but they are notoriously difficult to keep running after the initial surge. And even at that, the group I was in beforehand was extremely conservative. Moving them to 3.5 was very difficult, as we had a large personalized set of 2ed rules we all used and liked.

tilt
01-11-2012, 06:00 AM
I've actually thought of moving back to the simplicity of RoleMaster ;) ... but looking forward to seeing what they bring to the table with 5e

Eilathen
01-11-2012, 11:45 AM
Well, no one that keeps him/herself update on what is going on in the rpg world is surprised by this. For me, i couldn't care less... . DnD is, imo, a totally overrated brand of rpg rules. It is the bestselling thing, sure, because a big ass firm is behind it, but the rules are just not up to modern design anymore (and i am not talking indie-design here!). I have moved on to more interesting and variable rules (in both variants, traditional and indie).

I will definitely take a look at 5e when it comes out (as i am always interested in rules stuff), but i would be mightyly suprised if they'll come up with something that'll interest me enough to buy it. Just not my cup of tea anymore.

maxsdaddy
01-11-2012, 10:08 PM
@Eilathen, d&d may be overrated and but I will admit WoTC does put out some nice products. Their foray into the MMo arena left a lot to be desired. I played it for a while and then dropped out and spent alot more time with warcraft. But even that was really just flavor of the month for me. I find myself picking up a book, futzing around with paper and pen, and drawing dungeons on a large post-it board that was probably designed for someones sales meeting! The rules don't bother me so much. The d20 ogl mixed with the 4e rules covers everything most rpg'ers could handle, me included. I try to
keep it fun, and if one of the players gets prickly about the rules, well then its time for a roll behind the screen.;) I understand that WoTC is trying to support a brand though, and it is probably harder than you think for a "big ass firm" to stay ahead of the curve and market something that can sell and keep them afloat.

Larb
01-12-2012, 05:56 PM
Well, no one that keeps him/herself update on what is going on in the rpg world is surprised by this. For me, i couldn't care less... . DnD is, imo, a totally overrated brand of rpg rules. It is the bestselling thing, sure, because a big ass firm is behind it, but the rules are just not up to modern design anymore (and i am not talking indie-design here!). I have moved on to more interesting and variable rules (in both variants, traditional and indie).

Well that is always the way. I agree, the D&D systems are nothing special, but the game is well known and more importantly, it gets a lot of people playing tabletop RPGs. And many of those players then move on to trying other games too (including whatever your game of preference is) which is a good thing. So it helps serve as a gateway to RPGs for many people.

tilt
01-13-2012, 09:34 AM
D&D is a wonderful starter game, I've introduced lots of people to rpg's through D&D. As mentioned I still enjoy playing it - as the group where I'm currently a player only gets to play once every 1.5 month or so its nice to have a world and a game that is easily accessible :) I look forward to seeing what is coming.
When 3rd edition came out they also introduced the OGL which was fantastic and I think it was a HUGE step backwards for the industry when they limited that license for 4e. We would have seen many more play 4e if the 3rd party publishers had wanted to make material for it. I hope they've learned their lesson.. but with big companies you never know - those high payroll executives can sometimes be extremely dense and for example think that all games are alike, and if we can sell boardgames and barbies like this, it will also work for roleplaying games. *sigh*

maxsdaddy
01-13-2012, 09:05 PM
I don't know anyone at WoTC personally. Maybe they have some "high payroll executives" and maybe they have a bunch of people just interested in gaming running the joint... LOL. Whatever the case may be, I think gamers that are a little long in the tooth might just wait and see if they can figure it out and come up with something good. I sure hope so. I would hate to see a gaming system that brought alot of people into, not just this community, but into gaming as a whole, go down in flames because they couldn't grasp what the people wanted.

tilt
01-14-2012, 03:34 AM
I very much agree - it would be a sad to loose D&D. I don't doubt that there are a lot of gamers at WoTC, but I'm also betting that after Hasbro bought them they got people looking over their shoulders as well. Then again, they DO need more than gamers, cause being a gamer doesn't necessarily mean that you know anything about stuff like marketing and such. Greg Christopher on G+ came with a great post 2 days ago concerning the need for WoTC to go out and use social media - start talking with their players instead of to them.

Lukc
01-14-2012, 03:59 AM
Yup, social media are especially relevant to a "chatty" game like D&D ... in the end the rules are just an aid to people getting together and having fun. One of my favourite things about summer are the outdoor games when you get extra points for swatting bugs with dice :P.