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Redrobes
04-10-2008, 08:21 AM
Did a bit on my tile last night but didn't upload it so here it is so far...

### Latest WIP ###

Torq
04-10-2008, 08:31 AM
Looking most excellent Redrobes. I love the the erosion, what did you use to create that? The beach coloured sand at the lowest coastal altitudes also looks great. Cant wait to see where you go from here.

Torq

Redrobes
04-10-2008, 12:53 PM
I started by looking at the 3D height which is image 1. I found this pretty hard to deal with. I tried various erosions and flow settings but basically it has a lot of complex ripple like noise which ends up as basins which flood into big big pools and was hard to persuade it to sort that out. In any case the amplitude of the noise is very large for being so close to the sea level. Thats not unheard of and I think Croatia coastline is like that - see Zadar but its not the sort of place that people have rushed to populate either and its not the sort of map I wanted to make.

Still within that constraint I thought that what we would have is a fen land with a lot of marsh and I believe that one of my neighbors has said that they want to go that route too. The thing now was that there is no geography to generate those pools so I figured that what would be good was a long ridge running through the middle of it. I also figured that it would make for a good dynamic that the main road through the land was along the ridge line and unusually all the low lands were the dangerous bits full of marshy swamp and creatures to boot.

So I got out the original coast and lake boundaries to match up and hand made some hills by painting about 4 shades of grey in and blurring them hard. Then I added a scaled version of that as a heightmap to a scaled down version of the original so that there was some of the original texture to the final map. It was about 50:50 or so. I also fixed some key rivers in place by joining up some of the smaller lakes with some darker lines on the height map.

Then I set it off with various erosion and flow stuff in my GeoTerSys which after a while produced the map below. It took a lot of faffing with various settings and basically I put the map into an ice age and let it thaw slowly. The ice cuts some of the blockages away like a glacier and roughens up the terrain in the right places too. When the water then flows it cuts more of the rivers and you can see where it thinks some of the rivers were in different places than I had put them so it has kinda broken the flow bit but thats cool.

The beaches were all auto generated by it. Theres a bit in the program that smooths out the low to high tidal areas to create beaches. I don't have very good cliff algorithms in the prog yet.

So after that we have the next pic which is my eroded height and then the same but colored. From this point I should be able to select a section and blow it up and up res it but thats for later.

su_liam
04-10-2008, 01:26 PM
Waldronate has a nice tutorial (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=1768) on creating realistic erosion. It's Wilbur-specific, but the ideas should be adaptable. It seems like a solution to some of the problems you've spoken of before.

I see your HF had the same nasty square artifacts as mine.

Looking good so far. I'm liking your rivers better than the FT-generated ones, too.

Redrobes
04-10-2008, 02:52 PM
I see your HF had the same nasty square artifacts as mine.I think that the horz & vert lines in the raw HF are probably induced from my scaling. Until its in a form that I can deal with in GTS then I have to do using some more brutal techniques. I was more concerned with the Z res so that the bits near to the coast produced the same shapes.

Torq
04-10-2008, 03:54 PM
Thanks Redrobes. In you explanation you included a slightly isometric colour version of your map. I think the mountains in that one look a whole lot more effective in that view with the perspective than they do in the top down view. I think the mountains in the map section tend to look slightly flat when viewed from above. Is there a way you can show more height on that version?

One way is to cheat. You can make a selection the same shape as your mountains and then apply a black/white shaped (angular) gradient. Its very angular but with some blur and noise you can make it a bit rougher. Then you apply this as a bump map to the mountain range. Not hyper realism but it can be quite effective.

Thanks for letting us into you process. I cant wait to see some of the 3d views you will be able to generate.

Torq

Redrobes
04-10-2008, 06:59 PM
If this tile is 600 miles across and say 1200 pixels then each pixel is half a mile. We measured mountains and found that they average at about 7 miles across but some in Chile were larger but only up to about 15. So somewhere between 15 and 30 pixels is about the size of a mountain.

So I think that I need to process a little more. The raised ground is mountainous areas in general and need to be blended with a 15-30 pixel noise map to give a mountain range in that shape. A kind of bump map there, a little different from what you said but much the same.

Then I need to run the process a bit more and let the rivers sync up again for the new mountainous regions. I wasn't planning on having any snow here in this region but I could leave a little sprinkling on top if you think it would look nice.

RobA
04-11-2008, 12:19 PM
T Is there a way you can show more height on that version?

This reminded me of something I had posted a while ago, but can not find by searching the forums.

You can render a slight perspective map then warp it back to its actual straight overhead shape. This caused the mountains be represented in a forced isometric false perspective...

Here was the comparison image I had created:
3057

-Rob A>

Torq
04-11-2008, 04:37 PM
That does look really effective. It changes the entire feel from aerial to storybook instantly. Whats the minimum amount of angle you can get away with and still get the effect? I think if I do another region I'll try and do that.

Torq

Redrobes
04-11-2008, 04:48 PM
I have some mountains chugging away in the background so I thought id outline what I was thinking for my terrain.

So I have said that this area is pretty bleak and not filled with cities. Theres a few natural routes across the map and some of them are a bit prone to attack on both sides. I could see Lizard Men coming out from the swamps and taking down merchant caravans so I would expect them to be armed and have a good supply of mercenaries.

So a series of stockaded and otherwise generally fortified points would need to be placed at regular intervals along the route. Each would probably charge a tariff for the benefit of being guarded - nobody's likely to camp outside of the fortifications.

So I reckon that these places would be quite basic and yet rich at the same time. You could probably get anything but its not likely to be sourced locally unless it relates to general merchanting. Theres probably enough farming going on to support the forts or towns but not in excess, all food thats not simple would be brought in. Probably more meats & roots than grains & fruit so all beer, wine & lodging would be expensive.

Probably have everything for warriors but a bit light on priests. Plenty of rogues but not all that many wizards. I expect an unusually high proportion of racial mixes too. Probably a great rumor mill going as well as spying and I would have thought an excellent place for bards.

I should think that theres plenty of adventuring work going whether doing mercenary work or generally lowering the local predator count. I would have expected that its the sort of area where new discoveries crop up now and again. Its not like lots of people are scouring the area - most just want to get through as fast as possible. So there could be untold numbers of ruins, caves, disused mines long forgotten etc. For the same reasons its a likely place that unusual creatures hang out - esp those that can tolerate wet conditions. Its quite possible that these monsters spend more time fighting between themselves and other monstrous races than picking off merchants. The towns might get caught up in these spats whether with armies or refugees.

Ohh my maps just finished... lets see what it looks like.

su_liam
04-11-2008, 05:00 PM
This reminded me of something I had posted a while ago, but can not find by searching the forums.

You can render a slight perspective map then warp it back to its actual straight overhead shape. This caused the mountains be represented in a forced isometric false perspective...

Here was the comparison image I had created:
3057

-Rob A>

There's a nice article on Plan Oblique relief at the Tom Patterson site (http://www.shadedrelief.com/planimetric/plan.html). Look around that site if you haven't already. There's a lot to learn, especially, but not exclusively, for Bryce users.

Redrobes
04-11-2008, 07:22 PM
Been playing some more tonight, added the mountains in and ran it a few more times with more settings. Found another minor bug in GTS...sigh. Learned a bit more about how to use it effectively. Anyway...

More WIPs. Though I think I am about done for the base tile map. I can think about some better trees, roads and positioning of some forts.

-- Edit: I have added a safe zones map. The red is monster ridden, blue is pretty safe (well lets say as safe as normal fantasy territory) and the unmarked ground is the no mans land... So if anyone wants to think about putting in forts & towns then keep it in the safe zone.

### Latest WIP ###

RobA
04-12-2008, 09:00 AM
There's a nice article on Plan Oblique relief at the Tom Patterson site (http://www.shadedrelief.com/planimetric/plan.html). Look around that site if you haven't already. There's a lot to learn, especially, but not exclusively, for Bryce users.

Hoho! Thanks Su_liam! Planimetric was the word I needed to stf on and couldn't remember!

Here is the whole thread that example was originally in (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=1046) (which was indeed inspired by the link you referenced...

-Rob A>

Redrobes
04-12-2008, 05:55 PM
Went out for a drive in the countryside so stopped off with my map print and made some names of places. I have made that sketch a little neater now.

### Latest WIP ###

Redrobes
04-12-2008, 08:21 PM
Put some trees in to match up with neighbors tiles and added a swamp / marsh effect where required. In the marshes are where the monsters hang out so that gives an idea of where its dangerous. Will have to do a write up of the place names but that needs a sort of wiki to do that. Are we going to obtain a common one from somewhere ?

Oh, updated the region tile screen too - link from the grab a tile thread.
-- Edit, I can never find that so ill inline it here too.

http://www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/ThinkBig/Region/MappedTiles_TN.png (http://www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/ThinkBig/Region/MappedTiles.png)

### Latest WIP ###

Baziron
04-13-2008, 02:04 AM
If I had sufficient time, I'd drum up player's to game in that region, Christ! Very lovely map.

Torq
04-13-2008, 03:05 AM
An absolute revelation Redrobes, I love it. The colours are great and the labelling top notch. You have also opened the door for the next level of mapping by being the first person to get to this stage.

Torq

NeonKnight
04-13-2008, 05:44 PM
Looks Good. Now to do some more work on my area's Eastern region to match up with your's. ;)

ravells
04-13-2008, 07:47 PM
very, very sweet. And you got the woods to join up with mine (as Torq did). Now....prepare for the Centaur invasion!

The Cartographist
04-14-2008, 07:34 AM
Redrobes - One thing in your "safe area" map confused me. It seemed that all the monster-ridden areas were immediately surrounding the water and that the "safe" regions were where the highest mountains were. Is there a reason for that? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Typically, people always settle near water (for ease of movement, food, etc) and only venture into the "rougher" terrain once a certain level of military strength is achieved. Your map seems to turn that assumption on its head.

There is nothing wrong with that, but I would ask what caused the situation in your area to be so different from the norm.

Redrobes
04-14-2008, 08:24 AM
Thanks guys - centaur invasion huh ? Maybe theres a Centaur / Lizard man feud ?

The reason for the lowlands being the dangerous bis was mentioned in post #3. I figured that the whole geography was of marshy lowlands and bogs and that travel over these regions would be difficult so thats probably where the monsters might be so the people were forced onto the higher ground. The whole region is quite dangerous and theres a whole line of forts and armed places to keep the trading route open. My region seems to be a crossing point to get to and from other tiles. It does not seem like a nice pleasant area. I'll comment more later but I am bit pushed for time right now.

ravells
04-14-2008, 09:47 AM
Centaur / Lizard man dispute sounds good. I'll make my coastal bits marshy too. I thought it would be fun to have a floating city on Lake Festus (actually it's less of a lake and more of an inland sea). The floating city is a vast collection of boats that can be hooked up together when the city 'docks'. I was thinking of sticking some mines in the mountain range to the south of you - mines mean dwarves (or if you're a warhammer player, minez meanz dwarfz), I suppose :)

Redrobes
04-14-2008, 03:38 PM
That sounds good. I have my little hafton shire with a halfling village ready for that but I figured that my rock is Karst limestone and that Dwarves would consider that too soft. I was gonna have a dwarf heading up the mines on Fentor but he does it because hes in charge - like punching above his weight cos hes not as good a miner as the best of the other dwarves. He could have been exiled or something from your group. Could have a grudge...

I left the bottom part of my map a bit clear as I didn't know what you wanted to do with your area. Centaurs would be perfect as usually they are at odds with humans considering themselves aloof and one of the older and more enlightened races. The centaurs would prove a much harder opponent than lizard men I think and would drive the humans up into the hills. I didnt think that my area would be all that full of horses so they would probably be imported from more planar areas and running them over craggy ground is not that sensible anyway. So I also doubt that centaurs would go up into the hills. So a good kind of standoff there. I think that would make my high forts of Karstview and Pludery Point the last outposts onto a sort of no mans land where if you want to go out into that area, be prepared to fight Centaur and lots of 'em.

Thats also excellent for my general prep that now the only route into Groam is via the Monkton Monastary and into Clercions unnamed town on the shores of Lake Awaur and down south from there.

industrygothica
04-27-2008, 02:00 AM
I have some continuity issues with this.

I believe we've established that grains and most fruits (other than the small berries) have to be imported because they cannot grow naturally in the Fens.

I question having something so very definitive of the region, of which the contents are nearly completely imported (the flour and the fruit, unless you're using the home-grown berries). If outside trade is halted for for whatever reason, it seems the Thrubmortons(?) may start to lose a bit of their identity.

Otherwise, I think the idea is a grand one. I love the bit of culture it brings to the area.


-IG

*Edit* Just so you'll know, I've moved on to your area for editing. You've provided a wealth of information, which helps. I'm at work now, but barring any emergencies (I do work in a jail), I should have it done by the time I leave in the morning.

industrygothica
04-27-2008, 04:50 AM
Ok, it's done (http://cwbp.cartographersguild.com/index.php?title=Thrubmorton_Fens). For continuity I changed the layout to match what I did for the Beastlands and reworded some stuff.

I've kept the original on my flash drive, just in case everyone hates it.


-IG

Redrobes
04-27-2008, 09:35 AM
I think its more than a reformat. I don't think that there is a single paragraph that hasn't been essentially rewritten. Theres loads of stuff that has been removed or is now changed from the intentions of the area. The category that I made has been removed making my page uncategorized again.

We have a whole world to build. There are just 25 pages in the whole wiki of which my one is the largest at a mere 6K. If were worried enough about where the berries for a local pasty come from then this wiki is completely off the rails.

We don't need all that much stuff changed. The stuff we need changed are things that contradict the overall plan or the interfaces between areas and we definitely done need very much stuff removed.

I think ill hold off adding any more stuff to it until some kind of established format and protocol gets put in place.

industrygothica
04-27-2008, 09:47 AM
I think its more than a reformat. I don't think that there is a single paragraph that hasn't been essentially rewritten. Theres loads of stuff that has been removed or is now changed from the intentions of the area. The category that I made has been removed making my page uncategorized again.

We have a whole world to build. There are just 25 pages in the whole wiki of which my one is the largest at a mere 6K. If were worried enough about where the berries for a local pasty come from then this wiki is completely off the rails.

We don't need all that much stuff changed. The stuff we need changed are things that contradict the overall plan or the interfaces between areas and we definitely done need very much stuff removed.

I think ill hold off adding any more stuff to it until some kind of established format and protocol gets put in place.

As for the catagory, that was an oversight. I didn't mean to leave that out.

For the rest of the stuff, I thought I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. It wasn't my intent to change the intention of your area; I thought I'd kept it true.

Regardless, I apologize if I overstepped. I've changed it back to the way it was and will leave your area alone in the future.

Redrobes
04-28-2008, 08:25 AM
I'm sorry for my waspish response there IG. I was a little shocked thats all and I reckon that the basis of my shock was that my expectations of the way the wiki is being made is different to the way its intended.

I think that you should be editing the Thrub region in the wiki but my expectation was that it would be minor edits to fix up the disparities to the different regions or do the general maintenance. I can see that the intention is to apply more general formatting and narrative to them.

I just started writing any old nonsense that I thought would relate to the area I am doing though I have a lot more in my head. So it started with Wyverns and pasties but I think that maybe I should have started with more top down information like the captial forts and castles, major power bases, influential people etc.

I can see that there needs to be a more two way thing going on. Maybe have a mapper scratch pad area of information to be formatted and embellished by the editors and that the editors discuss some of the more fundamental changes being made to see if it fits in.

So I will provide some better detail about the area and post it here in a looser uncorrelated fashion and hope that you will take that and make something of it.

More info later as I am out of time again...

industrygothica
04-28-2008, 08:36 AM
I do apologize for the confusion and the shock.

Once a standard format is decided upon by the editors there should be much less confusion, I think. I've thrown an idea out to the others and am waiting now for them to either approve it or suggest an alternative. Hopefully that won't be long and everything will get sorted out soon.


-IG

Arcana
04-28-2008, 09:19 AM
Keep in mind, the pages of the Wiki have a discussion tab at the top that can be used to talk about whats being done to the page...That migh tbe a good way to throw down ideas so they're easy to move from discussion to active.

Redrobes
04-28-2008, 01:53 PM
I have been thinking a bit more whilst at work... what do you think about having a scratch page per major topic - like a tile region - where anyone can throw in loose data, facts and snippets onto the page which has no structure or narrative and then the editors can cut and paste or form text based on all of that data. When some of that scratch data makes it into proper formatted text then the editor can delete it from the scratch area. Like a fact purgatory. In that way the main page does not get edited quite so much and by so many different people giving it a more consistent feel. I don't think that there would be as much overlap of work or toe treading.

I was also going to comment in the same way that Arcana has about the discussion tab and that might be the best way to deal with required factual, continuity or basic changes derived or fed back from the main page.

There was another minor point in that somebody was making a page of pages. WikiMedia will do that for you with the special pages on the left menu. Theres lots in there about orphaned pages, uncategorized stuff etc so again, less need to duplicate work when unnecessary. A better way to do that index is through the use of categories too - they are particularly useful since you can have multiple indexes based on different criteria. One obvious category would be Ansium or whatever we decide upon. Then I would expect each tile area to have its own category too. Pages can have multiple categories so the Lesser Wyvern might be in Ansium, Thrub, and Monsters all at the same time.

industrygothica
04-28-2008, 06:09 PM
I have been thinking a bit more whilst at work... what do you think about having a scratch page per major topic - like a tile region - where anyone can throw in loose data, facts and snippets onto the page which has no structure or narrative and then the editors can cut and paste or form text based on all of that data. When some of that scratch data makes it into proper formatted text then the editor can delete it from the scratch area. Like a fact purgatory. In that way the main page does not get edited quite so much and by so many different people giving it a more consistent feel. I don't think that there would be as much overlap of work or toe treading.

I was also going to comment in the same way that Arcana has about the discussion tab and that might be the best way to deal with required factual, continuity or basic changes derived or fed back from the main page.

There was another minor point in that somebody was making a page of pages. WikiMedia will do that for you with the special pages on the left menu. Theres lots in there about orphaned pages, uncategorized stuff etc so again, less need to duplicate work when unnecessary. A better way to do that index is through the use of categories too - they are particularly useful since you can have multiple indexes based on different criteria. One obvious category would be Ansium or whatever we decide upon. Then I would expect each tile area to have its own category too. Pages can have multiple categories so the Lesser Wyvern might be in Ansium, Thrub, and Monsters all at the same time.


I think a scratch area is an excellent idea. Were you thinking of something else other than the discussion page for that?

Redrobes
04-28-2008, 06:39 PM
Yeah, what I was thinking was if I just shovel information onto a wiki page without any kind of formatting or making much attempt at writing it up or linking it or whatever and then you or anyone can write what you want with it. So I could say that in the Fens that Thrub is the capital and it is a stone castle with a palisade around it and that it has about 200 guards. The guards might have a particular duty rotation and then go on to say the hierarchy and where they might live. Then I could go on and say about the garrison might be a big two story building with a turf roof. And then add some roofs might be thatch or felt and pitch etc. Y'know like really unrelated stuff and just have lots of that but it needs to be ordered and formatted up into sections and pages. I just started chucking that sort of style at the main page but I can see now that it wasn't going to look any good until there is enough to group it all up into something that can be read much easier. You need it on a page that can be edited so that I can add to it and editors can remove what they want to take from it. It would be a sort of step away from the current final cut which would hopefully be more readable than my chaotic ramblings.

Its like the reverse of reading a fantasy book where you read text and make up the visuals in your head. I have all the visuals from thinking about the place and mapping it but I cant get the text out fast enough or in any sensible shape to make anyone else read it back and get the similar visuals again.

Most of the roads, places and towns have a distinct purpose and a lot of these kinds of threads are already in the map but it wont make sense yet. I have lots to say about Crazy Krull, and the ruins of Mere, the Arcanspikes and so on. I just need to mentally go spllleeeuuugh over a page and get it out. It will probably generate a whole lot more by that point but at least the framework will be in place. Of course I am doing all of this thinking with scant regard to whats happening in the whole world and my neighbors so I can see the need to get the story straight there too. But I don't think that what I have in mind will make much difference.

Ravs Centaurs fits in really well and hopefully there will be some trading up north beyond Roebuck Castle - furs or something like that and I need some place off my square where grain grows well otherwise all the Thrublanders starve.

industrygothica
04-28-2008, 08:55 PM
I think that is a most excellent idea. Can't wait to see what it all looks like when it's finished.

SeerBlue
06-02-2008, 05:56 PM
Hey Redrobes, since I have a passel of budding artists on my hands for a month (otherwise known as technologically advanced carpet orcs, with their own Vaio laptop), we have decided to make a map of a town in Thrub. I read through the named locations and they chose Snapgallows,,,,so we genned up a small town, and they are now plopping buildings down on the outlines in Sketchup, with a variety of roofs even, it may take a bit, as the ages go from 3 to 13, but even the youngest has a good idea of how to draw shapes and extrude. As the roofs are done via ruby script they all do that quite well.
I will start posting images once they get to the texturing and photoshopping. SeerBlue

Redrobes
06-02-2008, 07:04 PM
Hey Redrobes, since I have a passel of budding artists on my hands for a month (otherwise known as technologically advanced carpet orcs, with their own Vaio laptop), we have decided to make a map of a town in Thrub. I read through the named locations and they chose Snapgallows...Fantastic ! I have no back story at all for this place. All I had in mind was once there was a hanging (perhaps on the hill) which didn't quite work out so well...

So blank canvas - go wild !

And a full town in sketchup....dribble...dribble...

:)

Torq
06-03-2008, 01:48 AM
The scratch pad is a great idea which will stimulate creativity on the part of others and provide a space for people to jot things down as they think of them. Seerblue I cant wait to see how Snapgallows turns out.

Torq

languard
01-04-2010, 12:38 AM
Threadomancy! Is there a higher-res version of this region? 1024x1024 blurs horribly when I try to zoom in to a 170x170 pixel (100x100 mile) chunk. If not no worries, I'll take my best guess. I'm looking at doing something with the Deathchaser Fen / Mere Fen area, focusing on the Ruins of Mere Fort first.

Redrobes
01-04-2010, 08:12 AM
Sure, here are two images. There used to be a road going from Morton to Mullion but the waters around Deathchaser fen and Mere Fen have been slowly rising. Already with a substantial amount of lizard folk in the area harassing the Mere Fort, eventually the road became impassable and so they abandoned the Mere Fort and moved the road to the much longer route going via New Mere Fort. Its highly likely that the Ruins of Mere Fort are now inhabited by lizard folk or possibly even something more powerful and secretive because no one goes into that zone any more. Its an infestation. Only those chasing death go there ;)

As you can see there has been one level of detail extra on the Deathchaser area which goes up to the Ruins but the Ruins are just a marker at this point and Mere Fen is still sat at base level of detail. Although Hawker point has not been mapped its very similar to Hardy point which has. So if you include anything like that then post. Morton is a large town with a stronghold and cavalry which keep part of the old road clear but not all the way to the old fort. The road from Mullion to New Mere Fort is also patrolled but not entirely safe.

Best of luck with it.

su_liam
02-01-2010, 12:42 PM
Fantastic ! I have no back story at all for this place. All I had in mind was once there was a hanging (perhaps on the hill) which didn't quite work out so well...

So blank canvas - go wild !

And a full town in sketchup....dribble...dribble...

:)

Hee hee. Child labor is a beautiful thing. My kids are getting to an age where I can bring them down to my sweatshop dungeons and put them to work on some maps.

I have to say I especially like the Carpet Orc's way with generating language. I used to use my cousin's malapropisms to name planets. The FHCOs are even better because they are doing it with awareness and intent, which gives the words a real neat feel. Even if they lose interest in gaming as they get older, they will retain that creative feel for language. That and they've helped you add some real color to a fictional world. Those kids rock.