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Redrobes
04-19-2008, 06:20 PM
Getting a bigger picture on Fentor Cross.

Fentor Cross is the crossing point between the two Fentor Hills (West and East). Around the town are three forts and as such it is well protected and combined, it has the largest garrison of all the places in the fenlands.

The three forts are Westside, Eastside and Thrubview. The large town in the middle has a large spiked palisade containing all of the houses. It is the melting pot of the area full of merchants and travelers.

This map is still 125mi across so its still too large to map at town level.

More to come...

Torq
04-20-2008, 06:07 AM
Looks great Red! Fantastic place to launch an adventure from by the looks of it. Are you planning to do the town and firt maps of Fentor Cross?

Torq

Redrobes
04-20-2008, 08:51 AM
I'm planning to get the first stab at the maps as just outlines. I will try to get the roads, the palisade walls and the outer bit done and provide a blank space in case anyone wants to start a city map. If I can do the outer and large bits then it should line up with the area map. I will try to do this for some of the larger places in the Thrubmorton region.

Redrobes
04-21-2008, 08:08 PM
Another level in - now at 30mi - probably the last terrain map for this area - and an update of the next one out to show position.

ravells
04-21-2008, 08:12 PM
I am seriously loving this.

Redrobes
04-21-2008, 09:12 PM
Yeah I am having some great fun. This is one of the first times that GTS has been used to generate some deep terrain stuff. I'm trying out all sorts of stuff here.

This is my Dragon Flight prog. Its a freebie but it does not come with the height map and color map for this. But I have uploaded the app and the height maps for it here (http://www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/ThinkBig/Region/DF_FentorCross.zip). Its 10Mb so be easy on the download - my poor web server >:)
(I'll prob take it down in a week or so to stop killing it).

Run DF, click past the help dialog. Now press 'P' for about 3 seconds. Press 'H' four times. Maximize it and press '6'. Enjoy :)
(Tell me if it works alright. Its the new V1.05 released yesterday)

su_liam
04-22-2008, 02:17 PM
I'm liking the erosion a lot. It gets a little, "raindrops on fine sand," in the larger scales, but hey... Still real nice.

It looks like the English countryside-like toponyms I'm using for the Stoutlings must be a Groamish thing.

Does Fentor Cross have a problem with floods?

ravells
04-22-2008, 03:14 PM
Hmmm when I pressed 6 nothing happened. Any ideas, redrobes?

Redrobes
04-22-2008, 03:38 PM
I am pretty happy with the erosion and its very good in a few certain ways but in general it's not the best out there. Theres some really good mountain erosion from WorldMachine - that one is particularly impressive in that department.

I was a little lazy with the raindrops thing. I added a little noise and upscaled it. I should have added it progressively as it upscaled so that it generated more even distribution of frequencies. If I had let it erode more then it would have made it look better but it would probably make the terrain more different to the backdrop its supposed to be sitting on so I didn't.

In terms of flooding I can see where your coming from. The terrain is supposed to be Karst (limestone) so that there is very little surface water on the upper hills and drainage is very good. The water flows through cave systems carving out large caverns until they collapse and then grass over so thats what its supposed to be. My app does not do any kind of rock type processing and definitely no cave collapsing stuff so I have to live with what it produces. So the look of the map is that of hard impermeable stone eroded away. I ran it with water for a while then turned up the permeability real high. Theres the odd area with some spots of water and this could be true to real but its not likely to be all that drinkable.

I think from an RPG point of view the villages would have a lack of water and would probably have to collect it. Its highly likely though that there would be a lot of springs all around the base of the hills. Some of the points on the map might be able to collect water but I think that its the major thing that would be different from usual villages.

Redrobes
04-22-2008, 03:48 PM
Hmmm when I pressed 6 nothing happened. Any ideas, redrobes?Hmm... No actually !
The numbers 1-8 perform changes in the resolutions to fixed amounts. It might take a second or two to generate it. You could tell whether the keys are working at all by using the '1' and '2' keys because they should be much faster but lower res. The res is displayed at the top title bar.

1 = 128, 2 = 256, 3 = 384, 4 = 512, 5 = 768, 6 = 1024, 7 = 1536, 8 = 2048

You can press 'T' and 'Y' to go up down in res too but its best if you go with a multiple of the native height map res. The one provided is 1024 height with 2048 color.

Some cards barf when going too big tho. Thats the GL driver throwing in the towel for trying to allocate too much memory. Some ATI cards start rendering the scene half white or all white even with a color.bmp file. From experience, only nVidia cards seem to get it right but my testing was a long time ago and I expect things have changed.

On my machine with a 7600GS it will do the 2048 but you can't have any other GL apps running at the same time. I have tested on a lower spec ATI card at lower res and its alright too.

Anyway, if pressing the '1' & '2' keys change res, all I can suggest is to run up the task manager and see if after pressing the '6' key it does a lot of processing and when that finishes does the title bar change to 1024 res.

The image wont change, just the quality of the height terrain.

Edit -- actually maybe whats happening is that 1024 is too much for your card and its failing one of the calls to generate and display it. I am using a pretty advanced feature of storing the entire terrain on the graphics card so that its much faster. You do need a big card for bigger res. Go up the scale and see if it stops working after a few. 512 square ought to be fine tho and thats seriously better than the 100 its starts up in.

ravells
04-22-2008, 04:00 PM
Oh I'm sorry, I was expecting a flythough! I've got a twin core with 2 gigs of ram and two graphic cards, so I guess it ought to be able to handle the memory requirement

Redrobes
04-22-2008, 04:19 PM
Ah I should think so then :)

If you set it to a reasonable res like 256 or 512 (depends on how much graphics grunt you have) you can press O,P,I,J,K,M for moving the camera and W,A,S,Z,E,R for moving the target position for the camera (the yellow line). So you should be able to get a real time flyable view.

It's intended as a debugging tool for terrains and also as a means to position your party at point A and view point B and show players what you would see.

It can do automated fly throughs but not using the keyboard or without getting it hooked up on the network. For stand alone purposes the network bits on the menu are redundant.

The screen save should work ok too. It merely saves out a fixed filename image.

Edit-- I should also point out that my Jan Challenge had some dragon flight sets to download. I think they are still there for the taking. Put them in a different directory and copy the DF exe to it before running.

ravells
04-22-2008, 05:32 PM
wow, that's really impressive! I had great fun flying around your lands!

Redrobes
04-22-2008, 06:12 PM
Its great fun yeah ? I'm having a ball with Thrub in 3D. L3DT has a great terrain viewer too and there are better ones out there which do levels of detail but I deliberately don't want to do that. I'd like the option to tho naturally...

Oh and it was the Dec challenge (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showpost.php?p=11135&postcount=16) not Jan which have some more 3D sets in them.

su_liam
04-23-2008, 02:00 PM
Karst, eh? Yay, SINKHOLES! Lots of cool caves for the orcs and trolls and whatever troglodytic nightmares to hang out in.

I'm a big fan of tropical karst myself. Closest thing your going to find in the real world to perlin noise ;)

Erosion gets more complicated in a way at larger scales. There will be gullied areas, especially where groundcover is disturbed, that will look exactly like miniature Grand Canyons. But there will also be areas, depending on subterranean drainage and vegetation that don't really appear to be eroded. I have actual small closed basins in my own backyard!!! About a thousand of them, depending on how close you look.

No matter what the fractal fans say, self similarity breaks down at very large scales. Rivers can actually climb uphill a little. In summer, the river through my town leaves numerous little pools in basins of significant depth. Some are nearly as tall as I am, sometimes. Try that on a continental map and see how many people laugh at you...

Don't think I was criticising your erosion engine. It rocks.

Actually, I need to get back to my map. Placing settlements and features is getting to be a headache and my labels are annoying me to no end. If I can't get the Boroughs looking decent, I may let someone else see if they can do a less sucky job with them.

Anyway, see ya' later!

Redrobes
04-24-2008, 07:21 PM
Karst, eh? Yay, SINKHOLES! Lots of cool caves for the orcs and trolls and whatever troglodytic nightmares to hang out in.
Yeah maybe. The uplands are pretty safe esp along the merchant roads but its a big place so I guess it could definitely have areas off of the main path thats home to some green skins.


...that will look exactly like miniature Grand Canyons.I can do grand canyons quite easily. I have more problem persuading it not to do them. The harder part is getting it to erode down a hill side so that it does not cut a 2 mile knife like cutting into the hill. As soon as the water forms the start of a cutting its hard to prevent it going faster and faster into the hill.


Don't think I was criticising your erosion engine.Its ok, I know it has some good some bad tho. The water and run off is good but the macro erosion like thermal could be better.

Anyway - I have some more to post so let me start a new one...

Redrobes
04-24-2008, 07:31 PM
I have done some more mapping between bouts of chores. I am trying to get to a point where people can pile in with their own stuff and I think we're there.

Below is a Typical Fort. You can use the map by itself but it needs some more buildings. It needs at least two special buildings also:-

A Wyvern Tower
A Rain Catcher.

The Wyvern Tower is described in detail on the wiki entry here (http://cwbp.cartographersguild.com/index.php?title=Thrubmorton_Fens#Thrubmorton_Wyver ns).

A rain catcher needs to be some kind of guttering into a large vat, pitcher, barrel or something similar.

If anyone wants to map or even just side on sketch either of these then post and go for it. Instead of changing the image below though, just make a map of just the building as its likely to be used in many forts and towns. I can composite them together no problem. If anyone wants to put some houses in or even just pencil out or describe a possible layout for a fort then that would be cool too. The image can easily be modified if you don't like what is there already.

Anyone fancy drawing a Lesser Wyvern ? - side on or top down I'm not picky...

So, step up to the challenge and make this truly cooperative.

My intention, though thats not binding, was that all the forts around Fentor are similar. We can jiggle some buildings around and have different characters in them etc but the shape and style are similar.

I'll try to get a similar blank patch for Fentor Cross Town too.

industrygothica
04-25-2008, 07:16 AM
What's the scale of the fort?

Redrobes
04-25-2008, 08:12 AM
Oh yes, the gap between the two large stones at the entrance is just wider than a mule pulled cart - say 6ft. The fort is about a 100ft across - pretty cramped.

Actually, this makes the fort a bit too small doesn't it. Better make the diameter about 150 - 200ft across. The Wyvern Tower alone is supposed to be about 50ft across the base.

ravells
04-25-2008, 08:23 AM
I've got a some royalty free art which has wyverns galore in it, I'll scan it and post it up for you.

Redrobes
04-25-2008, 03:42 PM
Ravs that would be GREAT !

I have drawn and painted a Wyvern Tower top down so its all ready !

ravells
04-25-2008, 07:07 PM
Here are a few at 72 dpi, tell me which one suits and I'll scan it at a higher resolution for you. The Dover bookshop rocks, I suggest you take a look at them online. Amazing stuff.

Redrobes
04-25-2008, 08:28 PM
Wow that looks like a great beastiary. The one bottom middle is what I had in mind but I cant make out what is going on in his jaw. The top middle one looks the best of the page for a simple no nonsense two legged mini dragon type thing. Its perfect - Number 3 :)

I'll paint a side on and top down Wyvern based on the pic (basically traced and sketched).

Took a look at the Dover Bookshop. How do you know whether its free to use art ? I can see a lot of books with price tags etc. How does it work ? I searched for Wyvern but it came up with just one book though theres more for dragons. It does seem like a very big archive tho :o

Edit -- So I think I get it. ALL the books are copyright free, you just pay to access them and then I guess you can do what you want with them. Y'know I think I could spend a fortune in this place. Its the sort of thing I have been looking for. I don't mind paying a little but its the restrictions on use that usually kill it. So if somebody has taken the time to draw something I don't mind handing over some cash if I can take it and rework it a bit to make some new icons out of them. All the icon downloads on my site are free. I don't mind forwarding on the reference to the source. I think that this way of working has a lot to offer and might be more lucrative to the author than ordinary books. But then, I am usually in the minority with almost everything I do...

ravells
04-25-2008, 08:42 PM
OH sorry, the book is called Heraldic Crests by James Fairbairn (really worth getting). The shop's in London, if you don't live there, best just giving them a call and they should send it to you. All their art is free to use. Here it is at 240 dpi...if it's not detailed enough shout and I'll make a higher res one.

Edit: I already have spent a fortune there. It's a real Alladin's cave.

Redrobes
04-25-2008, 08:58 PM
Superb. Its fine. Ill print this out bigger and in very light tones and then paint it up in colour.

I just might get that book. And the 1700 odd borders. And the animal collection. And the...

That "Liams Old Books" is very good but its not as extensive as this one. But his is free + donations.

Anyway, I digress. Thanks Ravs. Will do a little painting in the down time.

Redrobes
04-26-2008, 07:54 PM
Been doing a little more yesterday and today... I sketched out a really rough working of the Wyvern tower and found that it gave the suitable height and angles if the base is 25ft not 50ft. So this meant that the scale for the fort is about right at 100ft across. Sizes are going vary between forts anyway.

So I painted up the top down version and have done a top down Wyvern and a side on copy based on Ravs image. I'm not a great painter so I know its a little rough and the leg is wrong etc but its alright I think - good enough to get the idea across.

ravells
04-26-2008, 07:56 PM
Wow, I think it's excellent!

Redrobes
04-26-2008, 09:01 PM
Thanks. I printed out your image onto glossy photo paper in very light grey and then painted over the top. I learned two things today.

1. Never paint Gouache on glossy photo paper.
2. If your using Gouache and need a painters palette then you can do much worse than get some glossy photo paper.

I did the top down one on art card after that fiasco. ;)

I'll mod the wiki now to update.

Torq
04-27-2008, 06:40 AM
Nice work Redrobes. I think it looks great. Excellent colouring on the wyverns. When I get some time I would also like to have a go at one of your towers.

Torq

Redrobes
05-01-2008, 08:30 PM
Nice work Redrobes. I think it looks great. Excellent colouring on the wyverns. When I get some time I would also like to have a go at one of your towers.TorqThanks Torq, y'know I didn spot this post until now when I need to update it... Do you want to do the Wyvern Tower side on or maybe the Water Catcher thinger ? Need lots and lots of general buildings too. I expect everyone does tho... maybe ill have to actually get off my butt and do that thatch building maker that I have been putting off forever.

Got a new map to show how much space needs filling... If anyone wants to make a sketch of what Fentor Cross layout might be like that would be good. Usual thing tho - dont use this map, its very low res and I can get all the roads and stuff in nice mud style from a script. So just a pen and paper sketch or stand alone buildings etc etc

Fentor Cross is basically a home to about 800 people plus a merchant stop off point as it sits in the valley of Fentor Hills. It needs to have enough barracks to hold about 60 guards, plenty of Inns and places to stay, lots of shops and markets etc, perhaps a secure area for wagons, blacksmith, farrier, cartwright, capenters etc. I have put the Wyvern Tower on the map but it can be moved anywhere. Prob need a few 'Satch shops' too near the exits :)

You wont believe how small this is on the area map. Its a dot. The Forts are actually on the map. They are literally one pixel. Gahhh !

Redrobes
05-05-2008, 12:47 PM
So with some new thatch buildings I have whooped up a town. Its all subject to change - especially if I make some more buildings and add some more variety to the small list that I am using currently.

If anyone has some Inns and Pubs already mapped and you want them located in Fentor Cross then now is an excellent time to whistle. I can shuffle the map about to make one fit in.

I will add some extra effects to make the roads and paths a little more defined and try to add contrast so that the roof and mud is not almost the same color.

su_liam
05-05-2008, 02:02 PM
You wont believe how small this is on the area map. Its a dot. The Forts are actually on the map. They are literally one pixel. Gahhh !

After a trip to the coast, I took my son to the library. They have a big globe at the library and I wanted to give my son an idea of the size of this little planet of ours. The entire trip was less than a centimeter on the globe. Planets are big places.

Redrobes
05-05-2008, 05:58 PM
Twiddling thumbs so I done a bit more. Maybe I should have an image that I can update as I can see this one going through hundreds of revisions...

Su-Liam, I agree. I wonder if we would have more cooperative effect if the area was smaller. I'm kinda keen to get to the battle scale mapping, get some characters installed into the inns, shops etc, maybe seed some plot lines etc.

Well there are plenty of unnamed houses, buildings of all shapes to find people and plans for. If anyone was no good at terrain and wants to get out the graph paper then send them this way. If anyone has some stuff already mapped from old times and wants to donate then ill make a thatch building for it and add it in somewhere.

NeonKnight
05-06-2008, 03:09 AM
I like the map, but.....

The colors are too similar, it's hard to see the buildings.

Redrobes
05-06-2008, 05:13 PM
I like the map, but.....

The colors are too similar, it's hard to see the buildings.Absolutely. I need to make the green greener and the mud darker I think even if that would make it less realistic. Its a problem that thatch is a dark gray brown and so is the mud. I guess this is where artistic license will have to take precedence over realism.

I thought about tiled roofs but were in fen land and theres gonna be oodles of reeds. Probably no real shortage of clay either but there would be a significant amount of thatch still I would imagine so I have to find some sort of bodge up.

Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions ?

RobA
05-06-2008, 05:24 PM
Just giving them an outer glow or drop shadow might be enough to set them of. Cliché, I know, but it would separate them from the ground.

-Rob A>

Midgardsormr
05-06-2008, 05:26 PM
Perhaps the townspeople make an unsophisticated pavement by mixing stones with a dense gray clay so they can move about without getting their boots sucked off by the mud.

Gamerprinter
05-06-2008, 05:56 PM
In my neck of the woods, the topsoil is black-black, but the clay beneath is kind of a medium grey. So if you went grey with your mud, it would still be realistic, yet your brown thatched buildings should stand out against grey mud. :)

NeonKnight
05-06-2008, 06:25 PM
Perhaps make the thatch a tad yellower?

Redrobes
05-06-2008, 06:51 PM
I'll try them all; Thatch yellower, grass greener, mud darker and gray. The drop shadow is harder but theres a good chance I can automate that and the pavement is also hard. To do that properly would need hand modeling but I think I might be able to automate a little of that effect around the edge of the mud. I did cobble the town square. Maybe I could try to cobble more of the mud areas where the mud would be deepest.

su_liam
05-06-2008, 07:20 PM
I have to say at this scale, the thatch is essentially indistinguishable from noise. The thatch method works really well for larger images, but less well for smaller scales. It may be less realistic, but perhaps a coarser thatch would look better on these smaller scales.

Redrobes
05-06-2008, 08:09 PM
Ok I think thats a lot better. More / Less / Comments etc ?

Redrobes
05-06-2008, 08:39 PM
I have to say at this scale, the thatch is essentially indistinguishable from noise. The thatch method works really well for larger images, but less well for smaller scales. It may be less realistic, but perhaps a coarser thatch would look better on these smaller scales.Yes your right but I generally don't work in any fixed scale. I have included the second image to show the thatch when viewed closer. It also shows the cobbles better. I have been talking to SeerBlue of late and he is putting some nifty GoogleMap demos together so you will be able to see the way that zooming into a map gives a lot of benefits. Its really important on a town map that when you alter one building then the town map updates for you as its all one big map. Its gonna get even better if people would like to map some interiors of the buildings as then it comes alive and you go zooming right down to the town level and then go into any of the buildings. Thats really cool. I have only ever done it on a smallish amount of houses as the amount of work to map every building is a lot but if you had many people and parties all campaigning in that area and they all make up the text of the map and combine it then it grows. Thats what I am hoping this coop mapping can give us. Maybe some people are not so hot at large scale mapping but like getting a bit of square paper out and drawing some inns, rooms, crypts, churches, guilds & whatever. Thats what interests me. I want to go anywhere and have the map for it.

jfrazierjr
05-06-2008, 08:44 PM
Is the background Grass or Trees? Either way, I would suggest at least some minor random spacing outside the gates that is muddy ground. If nothing else, the walls would need maintinence and this would account for some wear.

Second, I for one would like to see one or two more buildings with out thatched roofs. I would think in a town this size, there would be at least a few houses that may have been upgraded unless there is no other roofing option than thatch. Just my 2 cents.

Joe

Redrobes
05-06-2008, 08:58 PM
Is the background Grass or Trees? Either way, I would suggest at least some minor random spacing outside the gates that is muddy ground. If nothing else, the walls would need maintinence and this would account for some wear.

Second, I for one would like to see one or two more buildings with out thatched roofs. I would think in a town this size, there would be at least a few houses that may have been upgraded unless there is no other roofing option than thatch. Just my 2 cents.

Joe
Very welcome 2 cents... :)

Yes I agree. On the forts map I had a path around the outside for just that purpose. I figured that the guards would check that its not damaged and make repairs. I think I had better add one here too for all the same reasons + a bit of gates mud splatter.

Fentor Cross is situated on what is basically a moorland. Its high up but not as high as the stony cliffs and peaks. I'll have to check but it might be the highest altitude town on the map. The ground outside of the walls is rough grass and heather, bracken etc. Not a lot of trees up there - maybe some wiry bushes. My base texture for the town is not really high enough to show up the heather too well tho.

I agree that some of the houses should be upgraded. The guild hall, some of the inns and probably the barracks for starters. I will try to extend my "Thatching for dummies" into a "Tiling for dummies" too and get some alternative roofing styles. I can probably go a little more wild with the textures there. All thatch looks much the same but tiles can vary a bit. It could do with more house shapes too. I have about 8 I think but I could do with at least double that really. Maybe having tiled versions will do the same effect.

Don't fancy mapping a few buildings or suggesting some building types do you ? I gotta get a few stone masons, cart wrights, traders and what not in there.

I'll prob leave it there for today and do a bit more soon. Mud and tiles included.

SeerBlue
05-10-2008, 02:22 AM
Hey Redrobes, what is the per pixel scale of the image of Fentor Cross, above, the reason I am asking is I am dropping it into the Thrubmorton Fen Gmap, centered in the big red dot for Fentor Cross, to get a sense of scale at each zoom level.

I went with 1 foot per pixel, as a wild guess as I can't read the scale bar real well in the jpeg, if that is right the 1024x1024 image georeffed to 312m or there abouts per side falls into zoom level 18 and 19,,so starting out at the world view at zoom level 6 you could zoom into that image at zoom level 18/19.

I chunked out the fentor cross area and stepped it up in size to fill in the 4 missing levels between your highest res image and the lowest res of the village. So the in between layers are not the greatest, just filler.
It is still sitting on my hard drive now, I have to modify the html, but I sould get a chance to upload it this week end just for a test look..If the scale is different let me know and I will retile it.


SeerBlue

Redrobes
05-10-2008, 07:26 AM
what is the per pixel scale of the image of Fentor Cross, above...The scale bar is black and white squares. The first two are 10ft each, the next two are 20ft each and then one 40ft. So that makes the whole scale bar 100ft.

On post #30 there is the smaller regional map of the area so you don't need to use big red dots to align them. Also, do you want a big high res, non JPG version of the town ? I'll email you one over.

Did you see my Fentor Cross Church map I put in last night in the challenges section ? Do you think that the church should be inside the town or just out of town. I thought that it would be better just outside of the town walls. Theres lots of examples like that in old towns over here.

waldronate
05-10-2008, 11:29 AM
Did you see my Fentor Cross Church map I put in last night in the challenges section ? Do you think that the church should be inside the town or just out of town. I thought that it would be better just outside of the town walls. Theres lots of examples like that in old towns over here.

If the town came first (think Roman or native settlement followed by church takeover) then I would expect the church outside the city walls. If the town is post church-takover then it would be part of the nucleus of the town like the civic authority area and marketplace.

Your town has a nice square marketplace indicating likely preplanning by external authority but the church isn't in there so the church must be a relatively late thing, right?

Redrobes
05-10-2008, 02:40 PM
...so the church must be a relatively late thing, right?Well I don't really know. The basic premise was that the Fentor hills stretch across the map and so the dip in the middle would be the best route across so I would think that this would be a main thoroughfare and because of the geography a good place for ambush so I would think that protection in the manner of a fort, palisaded town etc would spring up and charge for the protection.

Having said that there are plenty of similar places like that over here where there is also ruined churches and some really unusual stuff where all on its own in the middle of nowhere you get this chapel and no town at all.

I don't know whether the modern Thrublanders build the church or whether the place was ruined at the point when the palisade was erected. My personal opinion is that it would be better outside of town but I am open to comment. I can shuffle a bit of room in the town if I need to.

I always assumed that the churches were out of town because they usually had the graveyards around them and nobody wants them in town. I come from a smallish town where it is known that the place started as a ford / bridge across the joining of two substantial rivers and yet there is a big church there in the middle of the town. This town also has a completely ruined abbey (which I think predates the church) where barely anything is left of it and a roman villa. Such a mashup of history. I reckon that the key is where it is fortified as that usually does not have a full church inside but often with castles you have some tiny (private) chapel.

Saying that I can think of the cities of Bath and Wells close by here which both have old fortified walls and the Abbeys are both inside. Wells is well known to be a religious administrative center but if Bath had anything around the original spa, it was definitely build up by Romans and the Abbey is much later than that and it sits right in the middle also.

Its confusing. :?:

SeerBlue
05-10-2008, 05:58 PM
In England, ages ago, landowners would give land to have a church/abbey built, in lieu of having to pay a yearly donation to the Church once it was built (Speaking from what my ancestors did in Eye, Suffolk). They seldom gave their prime agricultural land or parcels that would have economic value beyond what the donation would cost them over years, as they were generous and faithful but not so foolish.
The Church did place a higher value on land that had access to water, and good "buildability", as well as some potential for croppage. Either by the Church itself or tenant farmers.

So if it is outside of town, near water, with a bit of open fields, it has self sufficiency to a small degree and a potential for income, both from crops and burials.. "He may have died for nothing, but it cost a good goat to bury him"...Tillehn Cope TOB.

SeerBlue

Redrobes
05-10-2008, 07:57 PM
Now that makes a lot of sense and does explain a lot.

jfrazierjr
05-10-2008, 08:53 PM
If the town came first (think Roman or native settlement followed by church takeover) then I would expect the church outside the city walls. If the town is post church-takover then it would be part of the nucleus of the town like the civic authority area and marketplace.

Your town has a nice square marketplace indicating likely preplanning by external authority but the church isn't in there so the church must be a relatively late thing, right?

I have to agree with Waldronte, though more in a different vein. One of the things that kind of struck me when I looked at the last example was town layout. I would wonder if the town was planned or not or if it just grew. If the former, then everything is probably ok. But if the town grew, then things might be a bit out of whack. For example, if a naturally grown town (especially if the palisades were added after the fact) would have the core buildings along the main road and other things radiating out from there. Things like the smithy, farrier, well (which would be in center of the original town), miller?, and perhaps an Inn would be along the main street and newer buildings would have been built out around that. If the water catcher was one of the original structures, then it to would be fairly centrally located.

If on the otherhand, this was built as a fortified town from the start, then a question is was it originally build this large or have the fortifications been expanded beyond the original borders. If the later case, then the same type of thought process would be needed except the main buildings would be clustered around a central location and new buildings which are not required by a town would sprout up around that as the new walls built.

Of course, this all assumes that this is not a planned settlement where most of the people came in around the same time.

My art skills leave a lot to be desired, but am fairly good at city layout, so I think about these types of things (probably all those teenage years spent playing SimCity.) When I design a city I think about how and why each building is where it is. Likewise, when creating an underground lair/dungeon, I think about each creature I want to put in and design the whole thing to make sense. I had a DM one time that had a 100+ room (3 levels if I recall correctly) dungeon with a Beholder, Drow, an Ogre Mage, undead, and a Mind Flayer. It drove me crazy because those creatures would never be able to live in harmony in that small an area (well except the undead, who would just try to kill anyone that was not their controller). That campaign gave me a lot to think about in terms of what should and what should not be where both in town and dungeon design.

Joe









If on the other

Redrobes
05-11-2008, 08:28 AM
I will explain my thinking - not a justification as I didn't think all that hard about it.

The town is mainly a merchants passing so I put in a square because I thought that there would almost certainly have a market place. Around the square would be shops and merchanting utilities - like the "Bars and Keys Bank" marked up but not clear on my last map.

The place would have a garrison on rotation between the forts with a pretty large barracks if only partially manned at any time. So the Wyvern Tower would be there too and the tower would probably be on the edge as it has a platform for archers. The smithy and possibly cartwrights would likely be next to the garrison and military bit.

Tolls, guard houses and the "satch shops" (see wiki) would be near to the exits. I have a lodgings house right next to the northern Thrubview exit with stables.

On the right I have reserved space for general housing and on the left I have more merchant and upmarket housing.

After that I pretty much filled it in as best as I could pack it. So I think I went at it with a mentality of building the town as though it were a new fresh plot.

It gives me an idea that maybe I should have some ruined houses and completely dilapidated houses around the church area not far from this one which could have been the old town before it was moved and militarized. Perhaps the church was substantial enough not to have been attacked and destoryed and that it was too big a job to move it. In D&D there are many deities so I would not imagine that there was one "the church" to have to pay taxes to. I would not imagine that any particular religion would send people out into these lands to collect it or that these places would agree to pay it.

jfrazierjr
05-14-2008, 06:35 PM
Tolls, guard houses and the "satch shops" (see wiki) would be near to the exits.

Hmmm.. could not find a definition for "satch shops"....


It gives me an idea that maybe I should have some ruined houses and completely dilapidated houses around the church area not far from this one which could have been the old town before it was moved and militarized. Perhaps the church was substantial enough not to have been attacked and destoryed and that it was too big a job to move it.

Thinking.... Thatch + torches = destroyed village.

Redrobes
05-17-2008, 04:04 PM
Hmmm.. could not find a definition for "satch shops"....

A Satch is a pasty which is usually carried about in a satchel. Its in the Wiki under the Thrubmorton Pasty.


Thinking.... Thatch + torches = destroyed village.

Yeah, I thought that was a great idea so I thought that there would not be much left of it now, just some left over rubble after the larger blocks of stone had been taken away to use for the new town. Its grown over a bit now and the road has detoured around the old town.