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fifty
08-15-2012, 08:44 AM
Strangely I was doing a little research on how far a horse can realistically travel in one day and after much google-fu it seems to depend very much on the type of horse, conditioning (i.e. is it used for long distance travel all the time, rather than been standing in a field for months, or only used for racing, etc..) and condition (i.e. is it well fed and watered), as well as how heavy a load and the terrain involved.

..anyway this is the list of distances (in miles per day) I've come up with from a variety of sources that I shall be using personally:

On Roads / trails
Level or rolling terrain: 40
Hilly terrain: 30
Mountainous terrain: 20

Off-Road (or unkempt trails etc)
Level/rolling grasslands: 30
Hilly grasslands: 25
Level/rolling forest/thick scrub: 20
Very hilly forest/thick scrub: 15

Un-blazed Mountain passes: 10
Marshland: 10

Assumptions
An average quality horse, of a breed suitable for riding, conditioned for overland travel and in good condition.
Roads and trails are in good condition and up kept by whatever local authority deals with them.
Weather is good to fair, and travelers are riding for around ten hours a day.

Notes
Halve these distances for a horse pulling a cart or for a very heavily laden horse (e.g. a fully armoured knight who insists on wearing his armour all day rather than having it stowed on a second baggage horse as would be normal!).

Add half again for specially trained horses and riders who are prepared to push hard (rangers, scouts and messangers, etc...) though do bear in mind that horses cannot be pushed like this for more than a few days at a time. You can add a bit more again to this distance if the breed of horse is exceptionally suitable for this sort of thing, but I’d say 2 to 2.5 times the base is the absolute maximum without some sort of magical assistance!

Poor weather such as heavy rain or wind should reduce distances by about one quarter, and very poor conditions like heavy snow or gale force winds, etc.. should reduce distances by at least half if not more.

Finding a place to ford a small river or swimming your horse across a larger river should knock a couple of miles off the day’s journey, other unique obstacles might have a similar reduction. (as a guide remember a horse walks at around 4 miles per hour (compared to a human average of around 2.5 - 3mph) so if the obstacle takes half an hour to deal with thats a couple of miles lost.

Out of interest
The Tevis cup is a 100-mile-in-one-day competition which goes over some quite rugged and mountainous trail terrain in the western states of USA... but they do it on very special arab horses, with little or no baggage and even the winning times are usually around 17 hours! link (http://www.teviscup.org/)

ravells
08-15-2012, 09:38 AM
The post above was originally from this thread (http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?19704-Distance-questions&p=193879#post193879) which I have reposted to it's own thread for posterity.

To add to the subject, having more than one horse available to ride significantly increases the distance covered. Check this out from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_military_tactics_and_organization).


Each Mongol soldier typically maintained 3 or 4 horses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_horse).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_military_tactics_and_organization#cite_note-All_the_Khan.27s_Horses-5) Changing horses often allowed them to travel at high speed for days without stopping or wearing out the animals. Their ability to live off the land, and in extreme situations off their animals (mare's milk especially), made their armies far less dependent on the traditional logistical apparatus of agrarian armies. In some cases, as during the invasion of Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary) in early 1241, they covered up to 100 miles (160 km) per day, which was unheard of by other armies of the time.

DevinNight
08-15-2012, 10:31 AM
This is good info. How does it compare to people on feet. How far can the average person walk in one day.

Chashio
08-15-2012, 12:30 PM
Also useful information: The Pony Express (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_Express)

fifty
08-15-2012, 06:19 PM
This is good info. How does it compare to people on feet. How far can the average person walk in one day.

Ok, well to weigh in in similar style to my earlier post..

Again from my reading around on the matter overland travel by foot again depends on a number of human factors such as the condition and experience of the walker as well as environmental and terrain considerations.
Equipment and preparedness would also have a bearing... Modern hiking boots, ultra-light camping equipment and freeze dried trail rations as compared to hob-nailed roman sandals and hard tack, or even pre-historic fur wrapped feet and foraging as you go would all have a dramatic effect on distances covered!

But working on an earliest Roman through to a latest pre 19thC sort of period, and with some other rather broad assumptions again (such as average human walking speed of 3mph) this is the list of distances (in miles per day) that I would tentatively suggest:

On Roads / trails
Level or rolling terrain: 20
Hilly terrain: 14
Mountainous terrain: 9

Off-Road (or unkempt trails etc)
Level/rolling grasslands: 15
Hilly grasslands: 12
Level/rolling forest/thick scrub: 8
Very hilly forest/thick scrub: 6

Un-blazed Mountain passes: 6
Marshland: 5

Assumptions
A young to middle aged man of average height and build, in good physical condition and used to walking for long distances, Equipped with good walking footwear and other hiking equipment appropriate to the era.
Roads and trails are in good condition and up kept by whatever local authority deals with them.
Weather is good to fair, and travellers are walking for around 7-8 hours a day.

Notes
Reduce these distances by around a quarter for a heavily laden man.
Add a quarter to half again for very experienced hikers.
As with mounted travel, exceptionally experienced and/or physically capable men might be able to do significantly more as a one off forced march, but twice the base is probably a reasonable maximum and I would expect them to take be walking for up to 20 hours and be utterly exhausted at the end of it!

Out of interest
Naismith's rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naismith%27s_Rule) is a ‘rule of thumb’ for planning a hiking expedition by calculating how long it will take to walk the route, including ascents. The basic rule is:
“Allow 1 hour for every 3 miles forward, plus 1 hour for every 2000 feet of ascent”.

I’ve read anything from 15 to 25 miles per day quoted in many places for a fully laden Roman Legionary, but 15 miles seems more common though with time to break camp and rebuild it after the days march factored in most sources reckon they were only marching for a round 5 hours a day anyway. (There are some sources that suggestion 50 mile forced marches were possible for the Legions but many dismiss this as an exaggeration)

And just to show how subjective and ‘as a guide only’ this sort of table is:

The world record for the marathon distance of just over 26 miles is a mere 2 hours and 8 minutes!
Ulysse Grant thought a forced march of 20 miles in a day (http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/ot2www-pubeng?specfile=/texts/english/modeng/publicsearch/modengpub.o2w&act=surround&offset=327093481&tag=Grant,+Ulysses+S.+%28Ulysses+Simpson%29,+1822-1885.:+Personal+memoirs+of+U.S.+Grant,+Volume+I,+1 885&query=forced+march&id=GraPers%20.) was generally not a good idea if troops were expected to fight at the end of it
The British SAS selection ‘Test week’ concludes with ‘Endurance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Special_Forces_Selection)’, a 40 mile march across the Brecon Beacons (very hilly / mountainous terrain, famed for its bad weather) - completed in less than 20 hours whilst loaded in excess of fifty five pounds of equipment, plus water, food and rifle..

rdanhenry
08-16-2012, 01:42 AM
Over long distances, there are very few animals that the human (in proper condition) cannot outpace. Horses, however, are no slouches themselves at long distances. I would say you probably get about the same rates on foot or by horse, assuming conditions do not hinder the horse unduly (you'll never get a horse up Everest and a man can fit through more closely grown trees). The great advantage of mounted travel is that somebody else is doing the work. You also generally use a beast of burden, which can handle more weight than a man.

Dean Karnazes "Ran 3,000 miles (4,800 km) across the United States from Disneyland to New York City in 75 days, running 40 to 50 miles per day, 2011" per Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Karnazes)

Armies will travel much slower, due to the amount of equipment required, including considerations of food for such large groups. Armies generally include wagons, which will always be slower than simply and horse and rider. Smaller bands of travelers who are less burdened will go faster. Maximum rates require that one be essentially unburdened; running over 100 miles in a day is simply not done with a backpack.

I'd say 20-40 miles per day on a good road and no hampering conditions is about what you can expect with a normal group either on foot or mounted. Conditions will often make travel slower. Don't forget that weather will have an effect; travel can be slowed considerably if the skies are unfriendly. The need to obtain food is more of a problem with horses, if there is no ready grazing. How elaborate the encampment preparations are will also have an affect on travel rate, as will daylight hours, as both influence hours spent in travel. An army that fortifies its encampment will be more secure, but travel slower, than one that simply throws down its bedrolls, sets a watch, and sleeps.

And as fifty's post points out, there is a difference between how far you will travel in a day if you simply need to get where you are going and how fast you go if you need to reserve enough strength to do battle or otherwise exert yourself when done with the journey. Peaceful pilgrims in a peaceful land will outpace an army or a group of "adventurers" exploring wilderness. There are many factors, which is why historical numbers vary so much.

Midgardsormr
08-21-2012, 12:41 PM
I don't recall where I read it, but I remember learning that the effective control radius for a Medieval castle is about 20 miles: the distance that a mounted force can travel in a single day and still be able to fight when they arrive.

Somewhere around here is a very nice analysis of settlement density in an English county, originally posted by Gidde I believe, that included some numbers of travel distance and time. If I recall correctly, the average distance between settlements was roughly half a day's walk, such that a person could go to the next town, make some trades, and be back home before dark.

DevinNight
08-22-2012, 12:30 PM
Thanks for the follow up, that is good info for designing Inns and waypoints and smaller towns.

Pryme8
08-27-2012, 12:57 AM
this thread gave me lots to think about... thanks guys!

xoxos
08-28-2012, 02:20 PM
to add to this data, it is generally recorded that apaches were able to travel 70 miles on foot in a day (perhaps better termed as a 24 hour period..)

Pryme8
08-29-2012, 10:07 PM
that would be tough, you would have to maintain just under 3 miles an hour all day with no breaks...

William
01-08-2013, 08:37 AM
Very interesting. All this seems to fit with my own research, focusing on New World travel during the 17th-19th Centuries, mainly horse and foot travel.

Something else to bear in mind is weather. Rain-swollen streams, mud and muck, fallen trees due to wind and rain, snow, sleet, etc. Don't assume every day will be fair, sunny, and warm. People tend to travel through regions when the season is most cooperative, and water, food, and shelter most plentiful. In hot climes, the cooler seasons. In wet climes, the dry season. And in cold places, the summer. Prior to the late 19th Century, when you must travel "out of season," you were taking chances with your schedule, and your cargo, if not your life.

kortleggur
01-25-2015, 06:44 PM
hi, are we using US-miles here?

So this should be a good table for converting, no?

US miles km
1 mil 1,6 km
70 mil 113 km Apaches warrior: 4-12 men raiding parties on horses (not on foot !)

20 mil 32,2 km Castle dispatch team max (with horses)
45 mil 72,4 km Karnazes Run (on foot/day, no sleep)
20 mil 32,2 km Adventure Group - low estimate
40 mil 64,4 km Adventure Group - high estimate

8 hour estimate

On footkmWith horseskmtype
20 mil 32,2 km40 mil 64,4 km trails - Rolling
14 mil 22,5 km30 mil 48,3 km trails - Hilly
9 mil 14,5 km20 mil 32,2 km trails - Mountain

15 mil 24,1 km30 mil 48,3 km Rolling grasslands
12 mil 19,3 km25 mil 40,2 km Hilly grasslands
8 mil 12,9 km20 mil 32,2 km Forest/thick scrub
6 mil 9,7 km15 mil 24,1 km Hilly forest
5 mil 8,0 km10 mil 16,1 km Un-blazed Mountain passes
5 mil 8,0 km10 mil16,1 km Marshland





Naismith's rule
3 mil 4,8 km One hour
Add an hour for 2000 feet / 610 m ascent

Roman legions
15 mil 24,1 km Legion (5 hours march a day)
25 mil 40,2 km Compramised Legion (more time)
50 mil 80,5 km Death marches (more time)


**
My local sources would indicate the following

"ingmannalei" (max 37,5 km [or 23.3 us miles]) is the distance a civil servant (the parlementarian representative) will travel in one day on horse, and the way he will travel. The distance is four weeks (9,4 km [or 5.59 us miles]) or five german miles (7,42 km [or 4.349 us miles]). (http://lexis.hi.is/cgi-bin/ritmal/leitord.cgi?adg=daemi&n=594644&s=684607&l=%FEingmannalei%F0)

"Ein vika/vkja sjvar" one week of rowing , it is the disance that a rower would rown on one site of the boat. afther that distance he would go to the other side of the boat, (it is about one hour). But the distance varies (7.4 km [or 4.35 us miles]), (8.3 km [or 5.15 us miles]) or (9,4 km [or 5.59 us miles]). The word "week" is here refearing to the act of making way for the other rower.

When planing a daytrip with a horse, you can plan to travel 30-50 km per day [or 18.64 - 31 us miles], the "ingmannalei" is well within that limit (37,5 km [or 23.3 us miles]). Traveling on horses for long distance will ask for 3-4 horses per traveler, and use the younger horses early in the day. (http://www.ismennt.is/not/hbrynj/hestar/ferdalog.htm).

Midgardsormr
01-26-2015, 02:40 PM
Good info; thanks! And welcome aboard!

ravells
01-27-2015, 06:00 AM
Wow, an apache foot warrior could travel 70 miles in one day? That's amazing.

kortleggur
01-31-2015, 11:16 PM
Wow, an apache foot warrior could travel 70 miles in one day? That's amazing.

no, that was a mistake, they did use horses

I looked up the source

see: Richard M. Gaines. (2000). The Apache [Juvenile Non-Fiction]. Edina, MN: Abdo Pub

They loved to take horses.

Larb
02-01-2015, 12:28 AM
That would exhaust the horse though, surely. Could they keep that pace up over more than one day?

Chick
02-01-2015, 01:27 AM
That would exhaust the horse though, surely. Could they keep that pace up over more than one day?
In the old endurance races, contestants averaged 50-70 miles/day for 2 weeks. http://www.thelongridersguild.com/chadron.htm
More modern endurance riding usually consists of 100 miles in one day.
The movie Hidalgo was mostly fiction, but that kind of riding did exist. The movie Bite the Bullet was a more realistic depiction of the contests. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072705/

kortleggur
02-03-2015, 12:29 AM
In the old endurance races, contestants averaged 50-70 miles/day for 2 weeks. http://www.thelongridersguild.com/chadron.htm
More modern endurance riding usually consists of 100 miles in one day.

I read this, it was fun... Here are some quotes

"[THE HARD WAY] Those in the know, and plenty in Chadron claimed that honor, said the winner would have to set a pace of 50 – 60 miles a day to win the race. Old Joe Gillespie, aged 58 and weighing the heaviest at 185, wasn’t given much chance. Little Davy Douglas was still a lad in his early teens and thought to have a slim chance too. [...] Though there were no mountains to cross the mileage involved made it impressive. [...] Folks back then talked about how a hose had a “deep bottom,” referring to his staying power. [...] During the heat of the Nebraska summer days the cowboys averaged four miles an hour. During the cool hours of early morning and evening, they doubled the pace. [...] [THE WINNER IS] however, [he] was the “sorriest, sleepiest and tiredest” man anyone had ever seen. He had averaged seventy miles a day, covered the last 150 miles in twenty-four hours, and been in the saddle eight hours short of two weeks. During the next 48 hours the rest of the riders struggled in."

There are many things in this quote that is useful.

Heat is a major variable: "The rider will move 4 miles an hour (~ 6,5 km/h) if it is daytime heat, otherwise he will travel double, or 8 miles per hour (~ 12,9 km/h)." so if we look at the Chadron, Nebraska, June Average low-high daily temperature it is "53.1 - 80.5 F (11,7 - 26,9 C) based on 1981–2010 data from NOAA"

But this is without adventure equipment like feed, swords and armour, and other treasures. like one of the riders wasn’t given much chance because of age and "weighing the heaviest at 185 (pounds?, that would be then 84 kg)" The rules of the contest stated saddles weighing should be at least 35 pounds (16 kg) and rider, saddle and blanket are to weigh not less than 150 pounds (68 kg).

It is also worthy to note that topology is mention: " Though there were no mountains to cross".

So for a simulation it could be something like a formula for max horse speed in endurance based on this would be 8 miles per hour (~ 12,9 km/h) / ((Weather or heat modifier, what is max heat for a horse?) + (Burden modifier, max 400-600 lb) + (Topology modifier, scrubs and elevation )) = ?


Then there is also the risk of injury for the horse when going to its endurance level.

ravells
02-04-2015, 04:32 AM
But this is without adventure equipment like feed, swords and armour, and other treasures.

Bags of holding should be sold as standard with horses :)

acrsome
02-04-2015, 10:50 AM
Andrew Skurka (http://andrewskurka.com) is perhaps the world's only professional hiker, and he can do 35 mile days rather handily. He's an ultralight prophet, however.

kortleggur
02-09-2015, 06:30 AM
Andrew Skurka (http://andrewskurka.com) is perhaps the world's only professional hiker, and he can do 35 mile days (56 km days) rather handily. He's an ultralight prophet, however.

From http://andrewskurka.com/2006/how-to-hike-a-fast-thru-hike/

* The formula: the Time (days) = the Distance divided by the Rate

* When I need to put in a long day, I find it more effective to walk at a comfortable, controlled, constant speed—simply for more hours. If you routinely hike 15+ hours per day you may find the limitation of this approach, as sleep deprivation can become an issue.

* Many hikers get in shape “on the trail” by starting with 5-10 miles (8-16 km) per day and slowly building up.

* A lighter load is the only way to increase Miles_Hiked_Per_Hour

Out of shape:
* 5-10 miles (8-16 km) per day

Young novice:
* 23 miles (37 km) per day

Trained expert:
* 38-43 miles (61-69) per day (variables: terrain, trail quality, season, and trail culture)

* Disciplined walking at a stride 4 miles/hour, start at 7:00, 4 miles (6,4 km) by 8:00, 8 miles (12,9 km) by 9:00, 12 miles (19,3 km) by 10:00, 16 miles (25,7 km) by 11:00, 20 miles (32,2 km) by 12:00.

And from: http://andrewskurka.com/2014/north-face-50-mile-pace-charts/

** 6 miles/hour (9,7 km/h) is running like running a marathon.
Skurka can take 50 miles on 6.25 miles/hours (10 km/h) in just over 7 and 1/3 hours, but then he will be stiff, sore, and slow and needs some two days of rest before doing it again.

kortleggur
02-09-2015, 06:44 AM
Bags of holding should be sold as standard with horses :)

In one RPG adventure, we traveled by the African Swallow Coconut. An Animal Messenger spell, a Bag of Holding spell and a Magnificent Mansion spell are infused with the coconut, the coconut holder speaks the destination and a swallow will come, the party enters the coconut via the Mansion Entrance. The Swallow will then pick up the Coconut and fly it to its destination, leaving the travelers well rested after the flight.

Mark Oliva
02-11-2015, 03:08 AM
When we started making our products, we did a good bit of research on this question and found - as the thread up to this point shows - that here are many experts on this theme who have widely divergent points of view. We consolidated our results and came up with the table below for our Jrgar (TM) campaign setting.

Be cautioned. This table probably is no more (or less) accurate than anyone else's. It's just another possibility.

Travel Times Upon the Jr – 12-Hour Day with Short Pauses

Walking/Miles Walking/Kilometers Horseback/Miles Horseback/Kilometers Landscape
28 45 43 69 Forest Track - Flat
24 39 38 61 Forest Track - Rolling
18 29 27 43 Forest Track - Hilly
9 14 8 13 Forest Track - Mountain
24 39 Horses must be led on foot Forest Path - Flat
18 29 Horses must be led on foot Forest Path - Rolling
9 14 Horses must be led on foot Forest Path - Hilly
5 8 Horses must be led on foot Forest Path - Mountain
30 50 45 72 Open – Flat Track
25 40 40 65 Open – Rolling Track
20 32 30 50 Open – Hilly Track
10 15 15 25 Open – Mountain Track
25 40 40 72 Open – No Trail
20 32 30 50 Open, Rolling – No Trail
15 25 25 40 Open, Hilly – No Trail
8 13 12 19 Open, Mount. – No Trail
28 45 43 69 Prairie, Flat
24 39 38 61 Prairie, Rolling
18 29 27 43 Prairie, Hilly
18 29 27 43 Moderate Swamp, Marsh
9 14 8 13 Swamp, Marsh
4 6 Horses must be led on foot Swamp, Marsh Quicksand
30 50 45 72 Desert, Hard Ground
20 32 30 50 Desert, Soft Ground
5 8 12 (Camel) 19 (Camel) Desert, Sand
20 32 30 50 River ford, to 1 foot /30 cm
10 15 15 25 River ford, to 2 feet/60 cm

Modifiers: Thick undergrowth or brush, - 15%. Frequent potholes, etc., - 50%. Strong river current, -50%. Dodging ranged attacks, -75%.

kortleggur
02-11-2015, 01:25 PM
When we started making our products, we did a good bit of research on this question and found - as the thread up to this point shows [...]

So these are 12 hour travel estimates on a good flat road in good conditions?

That would lead to an average travel of 2.5 miles per hour (4,2 km/h) walking and with horses it would be 3.8 miles per hour (6 km/h)

I am using 3 miles per hour walking and 6 miles per hour on horses for long distance travel of an average low training human for little less then 8 hours a day with normal brakes, we are on similar values here. I would also argue that with good training this could easily increase by 1/3 for speed and also an increase for number of hours used for travel per day. Exhausting the day could increase the speed by 1/2, but that would call for vulnerability on the road, an injury risk and a 2 days of rest afterwards.

Here is the travel speed modification table that I use for my game


Speed Penalty0%25%50%75%
Heat:CoolWarmHotFrying*
Wind:Calm/breezeWindyGaleStorm*
Terrain:FlatRollingHillyMountain*
Growth:OpenPrairieWoodyForrest*
Flow:DrySlipperyFord Deep ford
Drainage:SteppeMeadowMarshMire*

* No horse riding available, but you can led it on foot

Roads will improve Terrain, Drainage and Growth modifiers, and bridges will improve Flow modifiers

Edit: Yes, the guides. it is always good to have a local guide to help you with the trails and tracks in the more difficult terrain. Without the guide you may probably get a lost a lot or find hard time finding your way. If there is a road than this i not needed, also it is only actually needed when the travel takes the adventurers in the Mier, the Deep ford, The Forrest or the Mountains. The Storm will also mislead you if you do not have local knowledge or some way to find our way and the Frying conditions are extremely hazardous if you run out of water. A good guide should be able to speed up some trips, but it depends upon his skill, local knowledge and perhaps a little luck.

Mark Oliva
02-11-2015, 03:17 PM
It's a good table. So are the tables you posted earlier. I certainly could use your tables just as well as ours.

As you point out, there are a lot of factors such as the degree of training and experience of both riders and horses that have a great effect upon the numbers in the tables.

A lot of people in Internet who claim to be real experts in such things produce very different tables. Maybe that's unfortunate. Maybe not. I'm not sure.

Question: You have a value in your table called mier. At the risk of looking like an idiot, can you tell me what that is?

Gann daginn!

kortleggur
02-11-2015, 10:37 PM
Ga kvldi Mark
a er gaman a sj slensku hrna. egar g s orin Jr og Garur spilinu nu, s g spennandi tengingu vi murmli mitt. g s a ig vantar eitt vintri :) sniug hugmynd.

en: hi mark, cool things you are doing [...]





Question: You have a value in your table called mier. At the risk of looking like an idiot, can you tell me what that is?


he he, you see... I just translated this from my Icelandic notes, (is:mrin) becomes (en:mire) or quagmire... sometimes when I write things up and post them, some errors of the keyboard happen to come along. here I mixed up the order of the letter -er <> -re ... I corrected it in the table

kortleggur
02-12-2015, 06:00 AM
A lot of people in Internet who claim to be real experts in such things produce very different tables.

I wonder about these alleged experts and the claims they give for their numbers.

kortleggur
02-12-2015, 02:05 PM
Special surface is also interesting.


70819
Apalhraun -75% move
Source: http://www.ferlir.is/?id=14019

70818
Helluhraun -25% move
Source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/23569365@N00/15252355372


Apalhraun
(eats up shoos like walking on swords, not suitable for horses unless there is a path that has been made) would be like reduction by 75% in movement while Helluhraun the flat and easy asphalt like substance but with cracks would reduce the speed only by 25%

Mark Oliva
02-13-2015, 02:14 AM
I wonder about these alleged experts and the claims they give for their numbers.

When we still were in the early stages of creating our Dungeons Daring (TM) fantasy RPG and our Jrgar (TM) campaign setting, the three of us who were working on the projects at the time did some heavy duty research on foot and horse travel times. We had started with the official D&D 3.5 travel times that were listed in the d20 (TM) Standard Reference Document, and we were quickly skeptical about some of the times listed there. That was bolstered by discussions with friends who have horses and who ride a lot, friends who told us that some of the things listed in the d20 document were nonsense. That was the thing that brought us to do our research.

After that we did searches in the Internet and found a wide variety of tables, lists, etc. We ignored those that had no attribution and also ignored those that were said to be based on individual deeds (When Adi Dong put on his traveling shoes, he was known to walk 60 miles a day, regardless of whether he crossed meadow, mountain or desert.), etc.

What we concluded in the end is that there is a near-infinite number of factors that substantially influence the number of miles/kilometers that a creature (particularly a walking human or a horse) could cross in a certain period of time. Every table we had found had values that were based upon a narrowly finite set of factors. When we asked ourselves after this research what we were going to do to create a travel time guideline. Our Scottish professor suggested a table six pages long. The rest of us said - and he agreed almost immediately - that we were doing this for a fantasy role playing game, and only maniac game masters would use such a table. Others would shudder and run.

As a result, we conjured our own table, which I posted farther above, and like all others we had seen, it is narrowly finite, excluding 100 valid factors for every factor it considers. That's why I said it's probably not much better or worse than most other tables.

In your last post, your comment Special surface is also interesting. is particularly germane. I don't think we ever encountered a travel time table anywhere that took into consideration the aa lava beds you showed (Icelandic: Apalhraun) or the more crossable pahoehoe lava fields (Icelandic: Helluhraun) in your comparison.

For our project group, it's great that you posted this, because to make our future Jrgar campaign setting accessory The Northeast, which will include Migar, sgar and Trllheim, it will be necessary to include aa lava beds (Aphalraun) and pahoehoe (Helluhraun) lava fields. We hadn't considered that yet, and perhaps wouldn't have given it proper consideration at all. So your posting already has been helpful.

That poses some questions. I've never walked through an aa lava field (Aphalraun), nor do I known anyone who has, but your photo is impressive. Based upon the picture, I would guess that if a PC party had to cross such a lava field, it would have to leave pack animals and riding horses behind. This doesn't look like the kind of terrain through which one could lead a horse on foot. Is that assumption correct?

I also wonder with what tempo a PC party could cross this lava field. Based only upon the photo, I would guess that a party on foot could cross - at the very most - about 5% of the distance in a given time frame that it could on a flat, level road. You estimate it at 25%. How about saying more about why your figure is so seemingly generous.

We have a good collection of textures, but none that are suitable for aa and pahoehoe lava fields like those shown in the photos. Does anyone know where there are some textures that replicate these well?

A last point of interest: When we were doing our travel time research, a U.S. Army infantry major who was a D&D (R) fan sent us a study that was done during the Vietnam war to determine what kind of march times were optimal for foot soldiers. Premises behind that study were the assumption that non-exhausted foot soldiers could fight considerably better than tired soldiers, and that too many commanders were forcing infantrymen to march too far in a day's time, increasing one's own losses and diminishing potential enemy losses.

One of the interesting findings in this study was that field grade infantry officers (major, lieutenant colonel, colonel) who had top physical fitness scores still could march in a day's time only about 65% as far as enlisted infantrymen and company grade officers (2nd lieutenant, 1st lieutenant and captain). The reason, the study concluded, was that field grade officers almost always moved by jeep and/or helicopter, while most enlisted infantrymen and company grade officers were on foot. The field grade officers were physically fit but not especially fit for long travel by foot.

This conclusion is not particularly surprising in its own right, but the relevance to fantasy RPG campaigns really stood out for us. Many RPG groups in overland campaigns travel on horseback. Such PCs, when forced by events or circumstances to do without their mounts, should have penalties for long marches, for the same reason that field grade officers can do less than their counterparts of lower rank.

kortleggur
02-13-2015, 05:24 PM
In your last post, your comment Special surface is also interesting. is particularly germane. I don't think we ever encountered a travel time table anywhere that took into consideration the aa lava beds you showed (Icelandic: Apalhraun) or the more crossable pahoehoe lava fields (Icelandic: Helluhraun) in your comparison.

For our project group, it's great that you posted this, because to make our future Jrgar campaign setting accessory The Northeast, which will include Migar, sgar and Trllheim, it will be necessary to include aa lava beds (Aphalraun) and pahoehoe (Helluhraun) lava fields. We hadn't considered that yet, and perhaps wouldn't have given it proper consideration at all. So your posting already has been helpful.

That poses some questions. I've never walked through an aa lava field (Aphalraun), nor do I known anyone who has, but your photo is impressive. Based upon the picture, I would guess that if a PC party had to cross such a lava field, it would have to leave pack animals and riding horses behind. This doesn't look like the kind of terrain through which one could lead a horse on foot. Is that assumption correct?

I also wonder with what tempo a PC party could cross this lava field. Based only upon the photo, I would guess that a party on foot could cross - at the very most - about 5% of the distance in a given time frame that it could on a flat, level road. You estimate it at 25%. How about saying more about why your figure is so seemingly generous.


The Apalhraun.

Out first variable is the age of the lava. At one time I was walking over to hot lava and the bottoms of my walking shoes began to melt.
As time sets in, moss and other growth will start to form on top of the lava.

Young Apalhraun is sharp and the it will eat up the footwear in only few days, boots that was suppose lo last months if not years. But this is also tempered by the overgrowth.

Near settlements there are paths that have been made in the lava fields, by walking on the same surface repeatedly, the sharpness is dulled down to a point that even horses can be lead on them paths without harm to there feet. Also here toe overgrowth will make it all easier.

The lava is usually relatively flat even if the top layer is fussy and sharp.

There are often ways around young lava on older lava with moss and other good things on top.

Walking on thick moss can be boring as you sink into the soft moss.

So travel speed is dependent upon many factors regarding the age of the AApal-lava

kortleggur
02-13-2015, 06:01 PM
You estimate it at 25%. How about saying more about why your figure is so seemingly generous.


Well, my system only has 3 penalty groups for travel -25%, -50% and -75%, but these penalties will add up on top of each other, As the adding of penalties adds complexity therefore the system has to be simple in the beginning. As a GM if I choose to have settlement nearby then I will reduce the penalty down to 50% because of all the paths. But then there is the addition of Hills or Mountains as lava is often on the mountains. that will give 93,75% or 95% penalty (if I keep it in the 5% breakages)

So AA lava on a mountain -93,75%
and AA lava on a mountain in a storm -98,44%


:)

Mark Oliva
02-14-2015, 01:33 AM
Great. The last two postings make clear why the 25% figure and, also, that it probably is a pretty good figure.

Next question: One assumes that the jtnar with their added weight might crush those fussy sharp spots as they cross them, so would you give a jtunn a bonus against the penalty?

(You're already excused if you don't take that question too seriously.)

Bless!

kortleggur
02-14-2015, 10:51 PM
Some easy travel time on home made maps, (no training, easy speed)

Manor/dungeon (sq): 20 sq/min
Town (sq): 3 sq/min
Municipality (hex): 1 min per hex
Province (hex): 3 hex/hour (15 hex/day for ready deployment of an Army)
Kingdom (hex): 2 hours per hex (4 hex/day for ready deployment of an Army)
Empire (sq): 1 week/sq for supplies, 2 weeks/sq for ready deployment of an Army

kortleggur
02-14-2015, 11:25 PM
Next question: One assumes that the jtnar with their added weight might crush those fussy sharp spots as they cross them, so would you give a jtunn a bonus against the penalty?



Jtunn... here is one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6r%C3%B0 it is the Earth it self.

The brothers gir, Logi and Kri were also Jtnar, thay are representatives of the water, fire and wind. I believe Jr to be there sister, witch makes them kin to the Thunder god r, as Jr is his Mother, she had him with in as a father.

To manifest the forces of nature as giants that walk the surface of the Alpahraun...

I would rule as a GM that they do not disturb the ground they walk on, as their shoes have magical powers that allow them to travel fast on the ground with little penalty. They are also larger and that will also give them more speed in overland travel without the use of their magic.

Here is one of the ursar Surtur...

Sutr ferr sunnan
me sviga lvi:
skinn af sveri
sl valtiva

... https://books.google.is/books?id=BGcJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=#v=onepage&q=surtr&f=false

Jtnar are naturally good with nature, they merge well with nature and do not disturb it unless it is there will to change it in some way.

but there are so many variables... It simply boils down to a comparison to the Tolkien world. Jtunn would be something like like the Ainur and urs would be something like the Maia.

vertu sll kvld

Nim Tara
02-25-2015, 12:16 PM
Oh finally! The answers to my questions! My friend and I struggled with this problem years ago, while writing a story about Robin Hood. Now These will be more useful for my book!!! Thanks!!! :D

Peter 67
03-12-2015, 03:12 PM
This whole thread has now saved me weeks of mental torture as I was about to start researching this very subject.

Midgardsormr
03-13-2015, 02:52 PM
Oh good, then you can turn your attention to "How far a clipper ship travels in one day."

Mark Oliva
03-14-2015, 06:47 AM
Oh good, then you can turn your attention to "How far a clipper ship travels in one day."

That's a problem again. Are you talking about a clipper with sails or are you taking a more historical perspective and are referring to a PanAm Clipper? I can assure you, the differences in travel time will be HUGE! Let us start calculating. Kortleggur, do we have to build in any modifiers (for one clipper, the other or both) if the local eldfjall happens to be blowing its top?

Forward, onward and upward!

Azelor
03-14-2015, 01:11 PM
Oh good, then you can turn your attention to "How far a clipper ship travels in one day."

Wikipedia states it could be 30 km/h in the best possible conditions. He can maintain that speed as long as he remains in the trade-winds. Apparently the record is 41 km/h but only for a short moment. Otherwise it depends on the winds. Apparently, the average speed of the Trade-winds is about 25-30 kmph. Navigation in the Doldrums and the Horses latitudes is usually very slow since the winds are weak.

Anyone knows the speed of the Westerlies and the Polar Easterlies ?

ravells
03-20-2015, 08:33 PM
I'm going to stick this thread. It's too much of a gem to lose over time.

Mark Oliva
03-21-2015, 08:07 AM
I'm going to stick this thread. It's too much of a gem to lose over time.

It is hard to ride away from it. And then, one still wonders how long it will take to do it!

kortleggur
03-30-2015, 09:18 AM
Wikipedia states it could be 30 km/h in the best possible conditions. He can maintain that speed as long as he remains in the trade-winds. Apparently the record is 41 km/h but only for a short moment. Otherwise it depends on the winds. Apparently, the average speed of the Trade-winds is about 25-30 kmph. Navigation in the Doldrums and the Horses latitudes is usually very slow since the winds are weak.

Anyone knows the speed of the Westerlies and the Polar Easterlies ?

here is a link for trade winds

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/601703/trade-wind

Its average speed is about 5 to 6 metres per second (11 to 13 miles per hour)
but can increase to speeds of 13 metres per second (30 miles per hour) or more.

Also this map is a gem on where the trade winds and currents combined are useful for shipping

http://web.deu.edu.tr/atiksu/toprak/den07.gif

and for the horse latitudes these are fine.

http://www.photographers1.com/Sailing/PrevailingWindsLarge.png

It is also a worthy note for any game design that we also have seasons that change the layout of the routs. and several anomalies like el-nino, So if this was a game mechanism then I would roll 1d6 every year and on 6 there is el-nino, also if 1 is rolled then roll again but some variant effect are double.

http://www.weatherwest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/LosNinoshighpressureHR.jpg

have fun...

Here is also a good resource on sailing http://nabataea.net/sailing.html with a rout table where we can see what direction the wind is at what months.

from that page, for interest of our travel time theme is this passage:

The Monsoons
From an Arab perspective there are three basic monsoon winds. First of all, from April to June, the Kaws wind blows southwest. Later the Dammani SW monsoon blows from August to the middle of October. At this time, the monsoon changes direction, and the Azyab monsoon blows in a NE direction.

Most ships crossing the Indian Ocean planned to leave the east coast of Arabia during the second half of November and the first half of December. Ships leaving the Red Sea would start out the middle of October, so that they could catch the Ayab monsoon across the Indian Ocean, directly to the Malabar cost, reaching Kulam Mali during December. If they were moving on to China they would have to wait for the cyclones of the Azyab to die down in the Bay of Bengal before journeying on in January, crossing from Mulam Mali round the south of India to Kalah Bar in the Malay Peninsula. Arab ships usually did not venture farther than this, as Chinese junks brought their trade goods to the Malay Peninsula, and may to the island of Ceylon. (Sri Lanka) Once the Kaws winds started to blow, the Arab sailors would start for home, laden with their goods.

The chart below illustrates some of the sailing seasons that existed between India, Arabia and Africa. As local conditions such as land breezes would vary along the Arabian coast, the seasons were more complicated for the specific ports shown in the chart. Nevertheless the chart provides a broad outline.
72242
From the table you will notice that the south-west monsoon strikes earlier further south, and lasts longer. As it moves northwards its duration shortens. Hence the Malabar coast of India is a dangerous place to be as early as May and remains so through September. This means that the sailing season in Malabar, India was only seven to eight months long. This affected the Indian vessels more than the Arab ones, for while the Indians must be all the way home before May, Arab vessels must only be clear of the Malabari waters before then. This allowed the Arabs more time to travel since they had a much longer sailing season when traveling from Arabia to India and back. This would help explain why the Arabs, who came from a land without abundant timber, dominated Indian Ocean trade routes for long periods.

Mark Oliva
03-30-2015, 03:02 PM
gtur! Although in inn's time, I think they left the u out.

mbartelsm
03-31-2015, 06:50 PM
Well, I just found this:

http://orbis.stanford.edu/

It's an interactive map that shows precisely how much time it took to travel on roman times. it includes a bunch of different ways to travel (on foot, on horse, a marching army, on boats, with a cart, etc.), it also includes prices and alternative routes depending on whether you want to travel fast or cheap.

TL;DR: It's a roman empire travel planner.

SilverElm
05-21-2015, 11:26 PM
Thank you, Fifty, for gathering together the distance per day! Soooo helpful for a book I'm writing (and a map I hope I can make).

Atrum Angelus
07-30-2015, 05:09 PM
This is an awesome resource. Thanks for doing all the research!

I put all the data together on to one handy sheet if anyone is interested. It's compiled into a couple of tables and a couple notes, but it has the bulk of the info from here.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_o4qfMql6MCZlV5LWg3bVJoTjQ/view?usp=sharing

Feel free to grab it!

Midgardsormr
07-31-2015, 10:53 AM
And here's that doc in pdf format, just in case the Internet eats the original at a later date.

Thanks, AA!

SilverElm
08-03-2015, 08:17 AM
Great reference sheet! Thank you, Atrum Angelus.