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NeonKnight
06-01-2008, 01:41 PM
So I got a hold of some PDFs of the upcoming 4e rulebooks (Yes they are likely 'illegal' no I was not the one who found them, YES I still plan on paying cash for the REAL things, as them DM I like having a copy on my PC and if I can get a week ahead of time to read the books all the better).

So, with my quick perusal what can I say about the new game?

I like it. It looks a lot cleaner, and looks a lot smoother to play. As an example, Wizards (my favorite character), has everything needed to play a Wizard PC in the Wizard section of the Player's Book.

Example: All Wizard spells, special abilities, etc is in the wizard section. Also, now the spells (either a daily or encounter 'power') are listed as to the level you need to be to cast it, not the level of the spell. Example, Fireball in previous editions was a Level 3 spell that you needed to be level 5 to cast. very difficult at time to remember all that. In the new game Fireball is now a Level 5 power (meaning you get it at level 5, pretty nifty eh?).

The game also now allows for PCs to play towards a goal (example being Demigodhood at level 31). This does not mean at level 31 you now are a god and continue to play. Nope, quite the contrary. Your character achieves your ultimate goal, and is then retired from play.

Classes are better balanced against each other, and each class has a couple of different roles assigned to the them. Example: A character is either a Controller, Artillery, Soldier etc. This means (again the wizard), is best as either a controller or Artillery. A controller means that have abilities to control the battlefield and opponents, throwing up Flaming walls, moving your opponents, holding opponents in place etc. Or they could be artillery, throwing massive damage around etc.

On the DM's side, one of the best additions to the game is the Minion ability. Some monsters have assiting monsters called minions. Minions are almost as strong as the main monsters but with one slight change: They only have 1 HP. You read that right a Level 13 Minion has only a single HP You hit them, and they die. But, as a minion, they take no damage on a missed attack (so abilites that do X damage on a miss have no effect on minions). This means you can now have those grand cinematic battles where the PCs are fighting the Zombie lord (as an example) and his undead horde. The undead horde is a real threat, but the PCs can cut through like a hot knife trough butter.

Very cool.

There are lost more I can say about the game, but all I can say, is I am going to be a very very giddy little boy come Friday when I plunk down my big bucks (I still have no idea what the cost will be to me, but I suspect something like $100) and get my in the 'flesh' (so to speak) books for real.
So much love!

RPMiller
06-01-2008, 01:55 PM
Thanks for the review NK. Hopefully someone in my face to face group will take a stab at running the system. I honestly have little desire to buy the books currently as I rarely play D&D, but it would be worth taking a look at it. I would try playing a session over MapTool, but I am afraid I would have way too many questions and would ruin the session for others.

cdenham
06-01-2008, 04:06 PM
Thanks for the review.

For those interested, Amazon is having a pre-order sale going on where you get the 3 core books, DM Guide, PH, and MM as a boxed set for $57.72. Great buy! It is going to normally retail for about $105.

Here is a link... LINK (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786950633/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance)

loogie
06-01-2008, 05:40 PM
ugh dnd...

i know its the most popular system out there, but its all a little bland for my taste... i find dnd to be to super powered and very directional... a lot like world of warcraft, but in the rping sense (eg.. if you a cleric, your job is to heal. you'll rarely get the chance to do anything else... and if your like me, and would like to make a character that isn't just a healer... your fellow companions complain for hours about how they think you should be healing them). I also prefer my battles to be a bit more then races to 0 hp. the system i play now has bleeding, broken bones, stun, penalties, all of which are in a series of tables that every hit uses... so it helps describe how combat is going much more...

that being said.. dnd is better then nothing, and i find that it fits what many people like playing, and if so, all power too ya. i'm a bit more hardcore in my rping, and hack and slash isn't all i want out of a game... just like to tell people that there are more options out there... (i had no idea there were good options out there till my friends turned me on to iron crown enterprises, now i'm pretty stuck on their systems)

cdenham
06-01-2008, 07:09 PM
I pretty much agree with you, loogie. LOTS of other great RPG's out there. In my opinion, WOTC pretty much killed the role playing in D&D and turned it into a number crunch fest. I was really hoping 4.0 would cure that but with 1 hp minions it doesn't sound like it. :|

I love the openness of the the original D&D version. Just a basic set of guidelines, a DM's opinion, and good imagination.

NeonKnight
06-01-2008, 07:53 PM
Well Loogie, in 4e D&D you don't really need a cleric as a healer. everyone can heal themselves either through Healing Surges, Second Winds, or simply short or extended rest periods. Example, your front line fighter is taking a beating? Instead of attacking one round you take a second wind and regain a certain amount of HP.

Conversely, the Cleric has nifty abilities to use while in a fight to allow their allies to heal damage. example, Your Cleric whomps a badguy and your ally gains a healing as the cleric channels the healing.

So, gone is the cleric being the battlefield medic who's sole job is to run around patching the wounds of their allies, rather they are a pivotal part of any band of adventurers who are good in a fight but can assist an ally stay healthy a little longer.

NeonKnight
06-01-2008, 07:56 PM
I pretty much agree with you, loogie. LOTS of other great RPG's out there. In my opinion, WOTC pretty much killed the role playing in D&D and turned it into a number crunch fest. I was really hoping 4.0 would cure that but with 1 hp minions it doesn't sound like it. :|

I love the openness of the the original D&D version. Just a basic set of guidelines, a DM's opinion, and good imagination.

I actually like the minions. I think of them as the standard sort of generic adversary you see in a James Bond Movie, or Stormtrooper #43 in Star Wars. You know the guy, the one the hero in the movie merely fires a shot in their general direction and they die. That is the minion's purpose to be a minor speed bump.

delgondahntelius
06-01-2008, 08:16 PM
ugh dnd...

i know its the most popular system out there, but its all a little bland for my taste... i find dnd to be to super powered and very directional... a lot like world of warcraft, but in the rping sense (eg.. if you a cleric, your job is to heal. you'll rarely get the chance to do anything else... and if your like me, and would like to make a character that isn't just a healer... your fellow companions complain for hours about how they think you should be healing them). I also prefer my battles to be a bit more then races to 0 hp. the system i play now has bleeding, broken bones, stun, penalties, all of which are in a series of tables that every hit uses... so it helps describe how combat is going much more...

that being said.. dnd is better then nothing, and i find that it fits what many people like playing, and if so, all power too ya. i'm a bit more hardcore in my rping, and hack and slash isn't all i want out of a game... just like to tell people that there are more options out there... (i had no idea there were good options out there till my friends turned me on to iron crown enterprises, now i'm pretty stuck on their systems)

loog... I've been playing d&d for almost 27 years... as for overpowered and directional.. it's all on taste and style and how you prefer to play.. you can make it as superpowered munchkin as you want... or as lowpowered and almost non-magical .... as for character's roles... Cleric is one of my favorite classes to play (as in I've probably had more clerics as characters) and none of them would be considered some mobile healer that spends majority of time healing... just ask my favorite PC cleric "Fist of Kord" .... he definitely does not spend a whole lot of time healing ... but dealing .. damage. I do agree that the HP system does have its drawbacks... I don't see a race for 0 hp necessarily, but I do get a lot of HP counting .... (players tracking the damage they do to enemy's to gage when they feel that enemy should be dead or dying.)

My experience with hit charts (D&D had its own version in 2e with Combat and Tactics) like ROLLmaster and Hackmaster and various other systems.... tends to bog down combat to a crawl as varioius charts are consulted and referred to and multiple rolls are needed to find out who hit where when and what happens to what degree.... I prefer (as a DM) to describe the action as we play freestyle.... its worked for the past 23 odd years with minimal complaint... but that of course is a matter of taste and style ...

I've played numerous systems, in various genre's of fantasy, sci-fi and horror... tho I prefer fantasy overall. D&D (in the beginning when we were kids and starting out it was all about killing, and power and treasure... those were fun days too, no doubt) has provided me with a rich and full world of history and RP ... mostly due to sticking with a RP first attitude ... We prefer to ROLE than ROLL .... for the longest time, the dungeon (the nickname of the room we use for playing) had a banner across the wall that read "If the story ever conflicts with the rules, the story should always win." ... just something to think about ... the system (which ever one you are playing) shouldn't define the story .. the system is designed to cover mechanics of game play ... a structure for which to base and define how the world works... it should never define how the story and RPing should go .... if it did... you might as well read off a "Choose your own Adventure" novel to your players... :D

that's just my opinion tho :D

MadLetter
06-01-2008, 08:19 PM
I like it. It looks a lot cleaner, and looks a lot smoother to play. As an example, Wizards (my favorite character), has everything needed to play a Wizard PC in the Wizard section of the Player's Book.

Most wizard players moan and cry all the time now, because they can no longer insta-gib any encounter. I like the new wizard! :)



The game also now allows for PCs to play towards a goal (example being Demigodhood at level 31). This does not mean at level 31 you now are a god and continue to play. Nope, quite the contrary. Your character achieves your ultimate goal, and is then retired from play.

Only a nitpick here, it's level 30 and stop (no real L31, I think). I created about six or seven Epic Destinies on my own already! ;)



Classes are better balanced against each other, and each class has a couple of different roles assigned to the them. Example: A character is either a Controller, Artillery, Soldier etc. This means (again the wizard), is best as either a controller or Artillery. A controller means that have abilities to control the battlefield and opponents, throwing up Flaming walls, moving your opponents, holding opponents in place etc. Or they could be artillery, throwing massive damage around etc.

One major gripe here!
The classes fall into one of four "roles": Controller, Striker, Leader, Defender.
The roles you named, are monster-roles, which define their abilities and place in combat.



There are lost more I can say about the game, but all I can say, is I am going to be a very very giddy little boy come Friday when I plunk down my big bucks (I still have no idea what the cost will be to me, but I suspect something like $100) and get my in the 'flesh' (so to speak) books for real.
So much love!

Amazon sells them for 55$ by now ;)


A few notes from my side (over 14 years of D&D already under my belt, just so you know I'm not new ;] )

The game runs smoother (played four sessions already with D&D XP rules and characters) and somewhat better, I believe. It's way more balanced and makes way more fun. The power you get mean fun and you get a load of excellenct descriptions if your players are inclined to it (mine are, happy times!).

The whole mechanics are way better I think! :)

All in all I just want to add: superb ruleset!


Regarding loogies post:
The Number-Crunching is far less probelamatic than in 3.5, I think. As everything is more streamlined, you can get straight to the action of an encounter, be it social, combat or a skill-challenge.

Less "what spells do I pick today", which can result in down-time en masse whilst a player picks his spells, and more time to play and describe whats going on.

On a sidenote: I play Shadowrun, Exalted and WoD myself, so I'm not stuck in D&D :) Nonetheless it's one of the best Fantasy Games, I believe... if it's too bland: make your own world and bring colour into it. I'm doing that right now! ;)


A last sidenote... for those who are interested in homebrewing stuff for 4th Edition, I add the link to a tool I am working on with a pal of mine: LINK (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1038972)

loogie
06-01-2008, 08:37 PM
well thats just it, opinions, i got no beef with people who like dnd, and if its done right it is good... i'm just sayin in my experiences, i've had trouble playing anything but the role specified by a class.

(i like clerics too, and mages, but my thoughts on magic are very minimalistic to dnd standards)

i think in most cases the main issue i've had with dnd is the GM's... the people i played 3rd ed with knew the rules inside and out, but that was part of the problem. they wouldn't bend the rules for specific purposes...

(one of my character ideas was to have a wizard that casts spells through runes, not waggling his fingers and saying words... i just wanted a different method of spellcasting, but to do so, i had to start out as a regular wizard and then get some prof eventually to allow me to cast runes, and even then, every rune i made made me lose xp... so my DM convinced me otherwise... but to me, thats not how rping should work. i mean sure, a character should be limited by the world, but i don't think a character should be limited by a systems rules...)

in the system i currently use i'm in the process of replacing the current spell system with my idea, and its covered in the rules to allow me to create these changes.

i've played with a few great DM's and I know all to well to create a great session its more them then the system... but the system helps people like me make sense of my ideas and tie them into the world without accidentally making them to weak or powerful.

and even for you DNDers, Iron Crown Enterprises has some amazing resources for RPing regaurdless of system... i HIGHLY recommend the GM Law for new and old DM's alike (Gamemaster is ICE's Dungeonmaster)... half of the book is system inspecific and just gives hints and suggestions on how to run a great game... i've been GMing for years, and i still read in now and again, to help my players have fun in my games.

NeonKnight
06-02-2008, 01:04 AM
One major gripe here!
The classes fall into one of four "roles": Controller, Striker, Leader, Defender.
The roles you named, are monster-roles, which define their abilities and place in combat.

Nope no problem here. as I said I only got them last night, and haven't had a chance to read then through (even today :().

I too was at XP, though my entire weekend was taken up by the D&D Miniatures tournaments, except for a brief stint at the Dungeon Delve (I played the Tiefling Wizard).

What about a Ranger specializing in Ranged combat, would that not fit more into the 'Artillery' aspect thou?

industrygothica
06-02-2008, 06:12 AM
Nope no problem here. as I said I only got them last night, and haven't had a chance to read then through (even today :().

I too was at XP, though my entire weekend was taken up by the D&D Miniatures tournaments, except for a brief stint at the Dungeon Delve (I played the Tiefling Wizard).

What about a Ranger specializing in Ranged combat, would that not fit more into the 'Artillery' aspect thou?

The book has the Ranger listed as a striker, for what it's worth. Though I do agree with you.

I think I'm going to like this new system (I've got the hardcovers on pre-order already, so I don't feel guilty for snagging the PDF's). The wizard took me forever to figure out, simply because I went into it looking for spell lists and per day charts, and didn't find any. When it finally clicked I was amazed at the simplicity and effectiveness. From the little I've seen, I do think that there needs to be more spell options, however; it looks like wizards may start getting a bit cookie-cutter after a while, imo.

Attacks vs. Saves are an interesting concept as well--one that I think will work well once you're used to it. There are so many different attack options for each class though, I'm afraid it may get a bit confusing at first just deciding on which to use.

In any case, I'm looking forward to playing and, more importantly, creating with the new rules. It promises to be an adventure!


-IG

delgondahntelius
06-02-2008, 06:19 AM
What??? no Munchkin "role" .... What a JIP!!!

MadLetter
06-02-2008, 09:19 AM
What about a Ranger specializing in Ranged combat, would that not fit more into the 'Artillery' aspect thou?

It would surely fit into the "Artillery" description ;)
I only wanted to be a smart-ass :P I'm following every little information piece we got since about eight months ago... *laughs*

As for Wizard being a bit "shoe-horned" into Evoker, I might want to add that there will be more "wizard" classes out within a year: Illusionist and Necromancer have been said to get a complete class. Enchanter might get eaten by Psi, though.

delgondahntelius
06-02-2008, 09:54 AM
besides munchkin as a role... don't forget "Complainer" "Rulehound" "Playerspouse" and the "Debater" .... :D

Arkkeeper
06-02-2008, 12:13 PM
Still I have to say nothing will ever be as good as 2nd edition AD&D. After TSR everything went Downhill.

Robbie
06-02-2008, 12:39 PM
I also have said "pdfs" and my books are on preorder. WotC didn't do a very good job of keeping the leaks apparently.

I'm still reading through the books so I can get a jump on the preorder and be prepared to run a game pretty soon after it comes in...In the meantime I'm rather dissapointed in a few things.

A) There is a LOT more cookie-cutter like aspects of the game...it seems more geared towards power-gamers than ever before...which leads to my second beef.

B) Its like an mmorpg took a paper dump and this is the ruleset. If the terms pull and aggro EVER find their way to my table I'll definitely be angry.

BUT...overall the rules do seem very streamlined and efficient, which for my gaming group may mean more time to focus on roleplaying as opposed to twinking.

GlennZilla
06-02-2008, 12:42 PM
Gamer of 20+ years here. So my $.02 follows.

The rules are VERY streamlined compared to 3.5. It reads more like a miniatures rulebook than an RPG. Statements like the bullet point from the Flanking rules,

"To flank an enemy, you and an ally must be adjacent to the enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy's space. When in doubt about wether two characters flank an enemy, trace an Imaginary line between the centers of the character's squares. If the line passes through opposites or corners of the enemy's space, the enemy is flanked."

No mention of the scene imagined in the mind of the player and DM, just the use of the miniatures and their grid. That was a bit off-putting for me.

One player in my group pouted when found out that there was no Druid. He had heard about the Elf/Eladrin being split into two distinct races and wanted to try an Elf Druid. Not having that available with the start of my campaign really irked him. So instead he's going with a Dragonborn Warlord. Jumping in with both feet I think.

For the folks that go on about munchkins, grognards, and number crunching should keep in mind that it happens in every game system. Ever go to a local store's Warhammer night? They make the D&D rules debaters seem like amateurs. D&D is simply the first, most popular and iconic table-top RPG out there. So it gets the lion's share of the less appealing player styles. My solution is to hold your tongue and try it with a group you trust and have a social contract with to not play in that manner. You'll have a good time and I won't have to hear the grousing over it.

In short, the rules are definitely changed. For the better in my opinion and I am anxious to get my game started after Father's Day.

NeonKnight
06-02-2008, 01:31 PM
Yeah, Druid is indeed slated for a late book, as are races like the Half-Orc.

If the game has changed to the point of: We are putting a new PHB with more classes/races in it, that seems fine to me.

But the comments of the miniatures is a valid one. My gaming group has taken to calling D&D 4e as D&D Miniatures: The Role Playing Game (Of course 75% of us are also competetive DDM players, with myself being Team President/Captain of the VAN DDM Miniatures group.)

Now, I don't have a problem with using miniatures in game play, having used them for about 25 years now in my games, I always enjoyed the visual aspect, but I understand some peoples concerns.

I also cannot blame WotC for trying to make the game more appealing to the MMORPG people, as the game has lost a lot of it's player base to those people.

But no matter what, I am not going to say D&D IS TEH L33TN3$$ or it is TEH SUXX0R! or anything of the kind. I have played Paladium (very, VERY unbalanced in my opinion), and to a lesser extent GURPS or HERO. D&D was my first love, and I keep coming back to it.

Arkkeeper
06-02-2008, 02:10 PM
See the problem is that D&D was originally about the DM made the rules, The rulebooks were small and light with very little rules in them compared to the new ones, it's like they combined a tabletop miniatures with a powerrpg and threw in a few dozen rules for no reason whatsoever. the point was that no DM played the same. everybody had their own style. now the rules are so strict it's not even fun for me anymore (not that I've actually gotten to play, the community for it sucks here.)

anyways I want to get a hold of these still where can I find these PDF's?

Midgardsormr
06-02-2008, 02:26 PM
and even for you DNDers, Iron Crown Enterprises has some amazing resources for RPing regaurdless of system...

Agreed. There was a book about building castles and fortresses that had loads of great information, down to the niggly details of how many square feet per diner should be available in the great hall. I'd provide the actual title, but it's packed away in my storage unit at the moment.

I enjoy the occasional D&D session, but people come into the game with so many preconceived notions that I generally avoid it, too.

Turgenev
06-02-2008, 06:06 PM
Still I have to say nothing will ever be as good as 2nd edition AD&D. After TSR everything went Downhill.

To this old timer, the path downhill started with 2nd edition. :D

My philosophy has always been play what you enjoy. Now if I could talk my current group (my wife and her 16 year old grandson) into playing Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu (5th edition rules) or maybe a 2nd edition Gamma World game set in the world of Thundarr the Barbarian - I would be very happy.* :P

As for 4th edition... I'm not their target market so I'm giving it a complete pass (same as I did with 3.5 D&D). More power to those who do go that route. I will stick with the games I know & love.

* For the record, we have played Villains & Vigilantes (2nd edition), 3.0 D&D, and 1st Edition AD&D.

RPMiller
06-02-2008, 06:19 PM
Now if I could talk my current group (my wife and her 16 year old grandson) into playing Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu (5th edition rules) or maybe a 2nd edition Gamma World game set in the world of Thundarr the Barbarian
*raises hand and jumps up and down*

I would so be there! Looks like you need to get MapTool working and a campaign set up. ;):D

Robbie
06-02-2008, 07:10 PM
anyways I want to get a hold of these still where can I find these PDF's?

There will be no discussion of or trafficking in illegal pirated content on this site please.

I allow for talking about the content of said illegally obtained documents, but no trading through here please.

Arkkeeper
06-02-2008, 08:17 PM
Oh Okay I'll just go over here *goes to the corner*

delgondahntelius
06-02-2008, 08:53 PM
Ark... these sites are searchable via google and other search engines.... so searching key words could possibly pull up a post by someone talking about where they got their pirated software, which in turn could be passed along to said software owners lawyers who then shut this great site down because we traffic and condone the illegal activities that I'm sure break several federal and possibly national laws ..... so while it might not seem like that big of a deal to at the time to ask about how to get something like that .... the implications and repercussions could be staggering ....

Its ok tho.. I still like you :D

Robbie
06-02-2008, 08:54 PM
So if you love your local cartographers guild...keep it down ;)

Arkkeeper
06-02-2008, 09:36 PM
Oh don't take my post wrong I fully understand.

Karro
06-03-2008, 11:49 AM
I'll admit to being interested in 4.0, myself, and to being a little sad I won't be getting it (at least not any time soon). I haven't actively gamed since my last 3.0 (never used 3.5) campaign ended something like 5 years ago. At the time, I was also working on my own system (who wasn't?) that was going to be sublimely awesome (at least for my own games... I wasn't worried about anyone else's gaming style), and 4.0 seems to address some of the concerns I had with 3.0/3.5 that were prompting my tinkering. Not all, but certainly some.

I do wish I had time to start up a game...

delgondahntelius
06-05-2008, 03:53 AM
Welp... we began our first 4e game today .... can't say I was all that happy about it, but this might be due to just learning the rules. .... At will Magic Missle .... you can throw that thing all day long .... oh well... we'll give a few more goes and see what happens I suppose...

Brazenwood
06-05-2008, 04:53 AM
ugh dnd...

i know its the most popular system out there, but its all a little bland for my taste... i find dnd to be to super powered and very directional... a lot like world of warcraft, but in the rping sense (eg.. if you a cleric, your job is to heal. you'll rarely get the chance to do anything else... and if your like me, and would like to make a character that isn't just a healer... your fellow companions complain for hours about how they think you should be healing them). I also prefer my battles to be a bit more then races to 0 hp. the system i play now has bleeding, broken bones, stun, penalties, all of which are in a series of tables that every hit uses... so it helps describe how combat is going much more...

that being said.. dnd is better then nothing, and i find that it fits what many people like playing, and if so, all power too ya. i'm a bit more hardcore in my rping, and hack and slash isn't all i want out of a game... just like to tell people that there are more options out there... (i had no idea there were good options out there till my friends turned me on to iron crown enterprises, now i'm pretty stuck on their systems)

I too got a hold of the new books via pdf, and they are amazing. Every Character gets to do three actions like a three act play during his turn, a standard action, a move action, and then a minor action. Clerics and Warlords do their healing (inspire healing surges) during their minor actions, so they don't just have to be the healer anymore, which is cool.

The game also introduced stages of woundedness, when you get to half your hitpoints you are "bloodied" which has it's own set of ramifications both positive and negative.

I love the new Warlord. My first character I just made yesterday was a Half-Elf Warlord, and I used my first feat to multiclass as a Warlock to gain the Star Pact power Dire Radiance (I can basically bring down the astrolgoy star power in the midst of battle), also as a Half Elf you get to be a dilatante which means you can choose another's classes At will powers and make it into a per encounter power for you. I chose another from the Warlock their Eyebite power which is like a mini mind blast and vanish for one round to the target you mindblasted! Then, also at first level you get your three main class features, plus two At will class powers, one encounter power, and one daily power. And these powers are not necessarily spells. For instance the warrior types have the martial power source, so their powers are called Exploits, like combat tricks, tactics, stunts. So it's cool. The Warlord is a master of getting everyone in position and gaining combat advantage through flanking. He is great at inspiring others to to better to, but only if he can kick arse in the first place. My daily power is Lead the Attack, which you would use against a boss character, cause if you hit you get tripple weapon damage and your allies are then +4 (I have a high Int and tactical presence) against the same target. At level two I'm going to get my first utility exploit which for me will be Knight's Move, which allows me to point and give my move action to an ally as a free action, more positioning.

The cool thing about the game (even though it does seem like the battle rules are a glorified polished miniatures game) is that I can't wait to see how a party with all these weird and cool abilities learns to use them in concert...wow! It's going to make for some amazing combinations and team tactics for sure, something like no game has ever had before. And the actual role-playing, well the quality of that depends on the quality of the DM (his running of NPCs and adventure design) and the quality of the players to actually be involved, so that is system nuetral as far as I am concerned.

And the new Skill Challenges are amazing for facilitating role playing too. The Dm can design Skill Challenges that have you making multiple rolls over time to gradually build success before failure strikes, should be great fun!

Overall, from reading the books for three days now, I'm so psyched to play, and the new system has me buying a new computer and setting up CC3 to map the local campaign area, and it's so exciting again!

Can't wait to play with my table top group, but also can't wait to play online with people like you through the new Virtual 3D game table with chat!

Woo Hoo!

NeonKnight
06-05-2008, 08:48 AM
Welp... we began our first 4e game today .... can't say I was all that happy about it, but this might be due to just learning the rules. .... At will Magic Missle .... you can throw that thing all day long .... oh well... we'll give a few more goes and see what happens I suppose...

I actually like the At Will magic missile. It never goes away, no longer is an 'auto hit' and gives the mage something to use when he has run out of his others powers in a fight.

delgondahntelius
06-05-2008, 10:43 AM
Ya, I guess it just takes some getting used to ... the magic missle ain't so bad ... it just seems that the whole game geared up into munchkin overdrive ...

NeonKnight
06-05-2008, 11:18 AM
I'm not sure so much if it is geared towards power gaming/munchkin gaming as heading in the direction of less paperwork gaming.

I know as the DM, I HATE having to wait the 30 minutes at the start of a session for the spell casters to choose spells, and then at the next session to remember how many HP, Spells etc each PC had remaining.

Now, end/start each session with an extended rest and bingo-bango-bango yer off to the races!

industrygothica
06-05-2008, 11:27 AM
I actually like the At Will magic missile. It never goes away, no longer is an 'auto hit' and gives the mage something to use when he has run out of his others powers in a fight.

Glad I saw this before I responded.

I think I like the new Magic Missile too. The spell has always been a wizarding staple anyway, and I think they did a good job of incorporating that into the new build. I think it is definitely more useful now, even though the spell itself is significantly less powerful; all the damage die go into one bolt now instead of multiple bolts, and there is a miss chance - so you won't go around dropping three or four 1hp minions every single round with it (which is actually the very first thing I thought of when I learned about minions).

GlennZilla
06-05-2008, 01:15 PM
The Magic Missile example is a good one for both how much it's changed and how it's not broken. Yeah it's now available as an attack option every round without fail, but it also doesn't break the system at higher levels.

Oddly I envision it now more like the Harry Potter movies with wizards flicking thier wands toward the enemy and blasts flying back and fourth in the battle.

Then again if you want a low magic setting, it'll be tough to deal with.

jfrazierjr
06-05-2008, 01:31 PM
The Magic Missile example is a good one for both how much it's changed and how it's not broken. Yeah it's now available as an attack option every round without fail, but it also doesn't break the system at higher levels.

Oddly I envision it now more like the Harry Potter movies with wizards flicking thier wands toward the enemy and blasts flying back and fourth in the battle.

Then again if you want a low magic setting, it'll be tough to deal with.

I don't think it would be that hard to deal with. For example, you could change the scale so that you don't get any at will arcane powers until level 4, 8, 12... and just give one or two extra encounter powers or even make it so the at will powers start the first few levels as only encounter powers and then after a time, become at will. I think there is more than enough flexibility to modify this fairly easily for low magic settings as long as most of the monsters are likewise modified.

In some way, this modified idea is how I have used Spell point rules in the past (2nd ed custom rules) where by spells costs spell points instead of slots, but at certain levels you could learn a specific spell of a specific level and not have to pay the cost (ie, at will with drain.) to simulate 4e at will spells. This kind of reflects the fact that as you go up in levels you are better able to harness magical energy. But I digress....

Joe

industrygothica
06-05-2008, 04:23 PM
Oddly I envision it now more like the Harry Potter movies with wizards flicking thier wands toward the enemy and blasts flying back and fourth in the battle.


Funny, that's the same thing I thought of as well.

Torq
06-05-2008, 06:01 PM
If you wan \t a low magic campaign (as I do ) just say no Wizards or Warlocks. Its all ober. Add a ban on magical healing, making players rely on healing surges, and you're away.

Torq

GlennZilla
06-05-2008, 06:49 PM
If you wan \t a low magic campaign (as I do ) just say no Wizards or Warlocks. Its all ober. Add a ban on magical healing, making players rely on healing surges, and you're away.

Torq

Clerics would need a little tweaking also. Maybe just drop them for the Warlord and Paladin.

But I was thinking you could drop wizards and warlocks only to replace them with Scribes. These Scribes/Arcanists/Sorcerers (name very much open to change) are students of the arcane and while they have tons of skill focus feats to replace the lost powers/spells they also can cast rituals.

That way the evil sorceror could still black out the sun or destroy the city with an army of undead. He just can't cast fireball on a whim.

There are rules already covering the alternatives for magic items in treasure.

loogie
08-04-2008, 02:15 AM
Agreed. There was a book about building castles and fortresses that had loads of great information, down to the niggly details of how many square feet per diner should be available in the great hall. I'd provide the actual title, but it's packed away in my storage unit at the moment.

I enjoy the occasional D&D session, but people come into the game with so many preconceived notions that I generally avoid it, too.

its Castles and Ruins

i in fact have it as well... got it as a pdf... its just a scan of the old book but, you can find it at ICE's store. Its the amount of detail they put into their sourcebooks that makes me love them...

And as far as healing surges and such... i'm much more hardcore then dnd i guess... i KNOW not a lot of people are like i am when it comes to playing, so surges is a good idea... but for me, the much more terrifying possibility of you OR your opponent getting a simple lucky hit that crushes your pelvis, severs an artery, or just plain lops off a limb is where i like to be... HARP's attacks have several effects like - to actions, stunned, bleeding per round, broken bones, severed limbs etc... while i do edit my monsters attack results so that i don't kill or maim my players all the time, i often let broken bones, and such slip by... and without instant cure-all magical fixes, it makes people go into combat with a little hesitation, and a lot of planning... (i like tactics)... basically, i made any magical healing an out of combat option... usually by changing its cast time...

4th ed sounds interesting, and i'm sure i'll end up trying it some time... tho i've heard plenty of people talking about it... and they've been busy crunching numbers so that when their DM switches, they'll have the best possible character they can have... i'm sure it won't take long to find some loopholes to create the munchkin characters. its just how some people play... and in my experience, those players are almost always playing dnd... guess being the biggest and most popular rp system is a benefit and curse.

torstan
08-04-2008, 05:49 AM
I had a go at MERP and was put off ICE products by the sheer mind-bending complexity of the system - but then we were only 14 at the time and D&D just fit better. Sounds like it might be worth revisiting some of their stuff from what you say.

I like the new wizards. We played a short test combat when we first picked up the books and one of my old players was whinging about how wizards looked vastly under-powered. At the end of the combat he said that was the first time he'd played a wizard that actually felt like a wizard in any game. That's the recommendation I have heard for trying the game anywhere.

As for the DMing side, it's definitely faster to build up adventures and monsters are a lot easier to run. I'm not enamoured by the skill-challenges though. They're a bit too simplistic at the moment - maybe they'll become a little more complex when I get my head designing them better.

Tancread
08-04-2008, 09:45 AM
I have been running a kids game and enjoy the new rules. The last straight D&D rules I used were the first three hard backs back in the early eighties. I have never used any of the plethora of stuff since then. I am really enjoying the game overall, but I am amazed at the stupidity of some things.

The game is clearly aimed to use miniatures and yet they won't sell you the miniatures. The 'collectible' miniatures are scam, plain and simple. I just don't like buying figures that way and even if I did there are tons of figures you need they don't even make. Madness. How hard would it have been for them to make up a box of generic adventure types, with racial variations? How about a box of kobolds or goblins? Luckily I have access to a ton of other miniatures, but I have to admit this one just simply baffles me.

Powers cards really are needed. Having your powers on a card would be sooo helpful, especially for younger players and new players. They have set up a system where it would be easy to make these and they are.... next spring sometime and $10 per class! I will just make my own but the laziness and greed here are stunning. It would have been simple to have these ready for release, this isn't rocket science it is cut and paste. $10 per class! I hope these cards shine my shoes and wash my car for that kind of money.

Their character sheet product contains four character sheets for $10. Holy crud that is some expensive character sheets. Sadly I didn't know this when I bought and discovered much to my chagrin once I owned it that these sheets don't wash my car or polish my shoes, which they really should do for that kind of money. Best of all I bought it Amazon so that $10 is a discounted price!

Skill challenges are hard for the kids to wrap their heads around. I don't tell the kids they are in one, I just have them roll and prod them along towards a solution.


The fighting is good fun and moves around more than any other RPG I have played to date. The fights feel more like the fights from The Three Musketeers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072281/) with the kids skidding around and using any trick they can think of, I am very happy with that.

I was playing D&D back when 'The Thief' (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10468.phtml) was a wild new character class and am having no trouble with a cookie cutter feel to my game. I suspect over the next five years or so Wizards will introduce tons of new character classes and tons of new rules so fans of Hobbit Ninja/Warlock/Sworddancer/demi-balrogs (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Optimized_Character_Builds) will have what they need soon enough but for now the game fits me and my groups well enough even with the complaints above. Certainly the most D&D fun I have had in a long time.

GlennZilla
08-04-2008, 01:04 PM
The game is clearly aimed to use miniatures and yet they won't sell you the miniatures. The 'collectible' miniatures are scam, plain and simple. I just don't like buying figures that way and even if I did there are tons of figures you need they don't even make. Madness. How hard would it have been for them to make up a box of generic adventure types, with racial variations? How about a box of kobolds or goblins? Luckily I have access to a ton of other miniatures, but I have to admit this one just simply baffles me.

Try www.reapermini.com (http://www.reapermini.com/) They have TONS of character figures and just about everything else you can imagine. For the request for a box of goblins/orcs/kobolds/gnolls try the warhammer Fantasy Unit Boxes. Usually they are multipart plastic models that allow each to have a unique and dynamic pose. I just picked up this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50032&prodId=prod840897) for about $25. That's just over $1 a figure; about what you'd give WoTC for the rubbery prepainted ones.

The downside being you'd have to paint them yourself. I'm all about that and as a former Warhammer junkie and store owner I can assure you that if you haven't painted a mini it's not as hard as it appears.


Powers cards really are needed. Having your powers on a card would be sooo helpful, especially for younger players and new players. They have set up a system where it would be easy to make these and they are.... next spring sometime and $10 per class! I will just make my own but the laziness and greed here are stunning. It would have been simple to have these ready for release, this isn't rocket science it is cut and paste. $10 per class! I hope these cards shine my shoes and wash my car for that kind of money.

Already exists for free. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4274554&postcount=568 Fan creation, but it's being maintained pretty well so far.


Their character sheet product contains four character sheets for $10. Holy crud that is some expensive character sheets. Sadly I didn't know this when I bought and discovered much to my chagrin once I owned it that these sheets don't wash my car or polish my shoes, which they really should do for that kind of money. Best of all I bought it Amazon so that $10 is a discounted price!

Try these: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=231186

Tancread
08-04-2008, 03:22 PM
Thanks for the links, I will use those I think. As for figures I have a ton of old ones, Games Workshop and Grenadier with some old Ral Parthas as well. I am just amazed that they aren't doing it themselves. I literally can't imagine what they are thinking. Thanks again for the links!

GlennZilla
08-04-2008, 06:00 PM
Thanks for the links, I will use those I think. As for figures I have a ton of old ones, Games Workshop and Grenadier with some old Ral Parthas as well. I am just amazed that they aren't doing it themselves. I literally can't imagine what they are thinking. Thanks again for the links!

My guess, and that's all it is, is that they didn't have the resources to take it that far. Kind of like the DnDinsider stuff, it's great on paper but the execution was a bit "limited".

But the fans and 3rd party guys fill in nicely.

Steel General
08-04-2008, 06:30 PM
Don't the have a program that allows you to run your adventures? Or is that still a WIP...could of swore I saw a demo of it somewhere.

torstan
08-04-2008, 07:24 PM
They demoed it last Gen Con but it has yet to materialise. They meant to get it out for launch, but missed that and now say it should be out by the end of the year. I guess the next we'll hear is Gen Con this year.

On the other hand, lots of people appeared on the maptool forums for the first time in the days following the missed launch. Whatever wizards produce is going to have to be good enough to draw them back from maptool - which will be pretty tricky.

Midgardsormr
08-04-2008, 07:48 PM
I had a go at MERP and was put off ICE products by the sheer mind-bending complexity of the system - but then we were only 14 at the time and D&D just fit better. Sounds like it might be worth revisiting some of their stuff from what you say.

Heh. If you thought MERP was complex, you should see Rolemaster. MERP and HARP are essentially "Rolemaster Lite." RM includes an attack table for each and every weapon you can use. None of this weenie one-handed slashing table; the fighter with the bastard sword uses the Bastard Sword Table, and the ranger with the longsword uses the Longsword Table. It's insane.

On the other hand, the level of detail and attention to source material that went into their books is almost unparalleled. I still have tons of MERP books that I consider almost as good as the canon written by Tolkien himself.

As far as 4e goes, I do agree with Tancread; it was rather silly of them not to at least manufacture minis to support the core races and the first sourcebook. Fortunately, my current group has plenty of minis from dozens of games, so we get by just fine. And when I move to Denver, I'll be using Maptool in projector mode, so the need for minis will vanish entirely.

Steel General
08-04-2008, 08:23 PM
Heh. If you thought MERP was complex, you should see Rolemaster. MERP and HARP are essentially "Rolemaster Lite." RM includes an attack table for each and every weapon you can use. None of this weenie one-handed slashing table; the fighter with the bastard sword uses the Bastard Sword Table, and the ranger with the longsword uses the Longsword Table. It's insane.

On the other hand, the level of detail and attention to source material that went into their books is almost unparalleled. I still have tons of MERP books that I consider almost as good as the canon written by Tolkien himself.

We played Rolemaster (or should I say ROLLmaster :D) quite abit when I still lived in Western NY, and you're right its overly complex in some ways, but the supporting products were fantastic.

jfrazierjr
08-05-2008, 02:26 PM
While I in no way play Rolemaster, I have dabbled in MERP a LONG time ago (18+ years??) I also was totally confounded by the shear number of tables. Personally, I rather like the generic vague nature of D&D's HP system. No thinking about "ok... last round, my arm was broken by the goblins hammer, now, whats my penalty to every action" ...

However, with that said with the proliferation and fairly ease of use in todays computers and software, you could easily automate tons of that if you so choose. Maptool has table support built in now, and with the latest dev build can now support table looks ups from within macros. I expect this would take any Rolemaster based game a one time set up and vastly increase the speed of combat resolution.

ravells
08-05-2008, 03:24 PM
I think back in those days having lots of tables was seen as 'sexy'. These days (when I play at all which is rarely), I tend to go for freeform and abandon all rule systems.