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Robbie
06-11-2008, 10:32 PM
So...I have a planet with 8 moons, and I used Astrosynthesis on my buddies laptop (haven't bought it yet) to place those moons and see how an orbit plan would look...and I'm having a hard time figuring out whether or not I'd have any orbital collisions...

Its a pretty amazing program...I almost have to learn astrophysics to fill it all out, but so far its pretty nifty...

Anyone know if there's an easier way to see if there's any collisions in my moon orbits...its a very confusing view looping around the system diagram window trying to see if the lines ever cross close enough to cause a collision.

jfrazierjr
06-11-2008, 11:39 PM
So...I have a planet with 8 moons, and I used Astrosynthesis on my buddies laptop (haven't bought it yet) to place those moons and see how an orbit plan would look...and I'm having a hard time figuring out whether or not I'd have any orbital collisions...

Its a pretty amazing program...I almost have to learn astrophysics to fill it all out, but so far its pretty nifty...

Anyone know if there's an easier way to see if there's any collisions in my moon orbits...its a very confusing view looping around the system diagram window trying to see if the lines ever cross close enough to cause a collision.

If you have your friend post on the NBOS forums (only open to those users who have registered their software), the community is pretty large and the developer(Ed) usually can respond within a few days if the other users cannot help out.

Joe

meleeguy
06-13-2008, 03:45 PM
This site has the most amazing tangents....

Normski
06-13-2008, 04:12 PM
Probably being a bit pedantic here, but the moons will have gravitational fields of their own, and if two moons get too close, they will disrupt each others orbits. So it's not just collisions you have to watch out for - but near-enough-for-gravity-to-wreak-havok as well

Norm

jfrazierjr
06-13-2008, 04:45 PM
This site has the most amazing tangents....

Well, its not that tangential. If two moons hit each other, the world could die... Then there would be no need for a map and thus no need for a map maker. So, these things are very important! :P

Joe

RPMiller
06-13-2008, 04:50 PM
Not to mention your planet is closer to the size of Mars than to Earth so gravity is already going to be weak so hopefully those are some small moons. Consider the other planets in our solar system that have more than two moons and how massive they are to be able to keep all those moving. Considering also that your world has some sizable oceans those tides are going to be pretty crazy unless somehow the moons sort of balance them all out.

jfrazierjr
06-13-2008, 05:09 PM
Not to mention your planet is closer to the size of Mars than to Earth so gravity is already going to be weak so hopefully those are some small moons. Consider the other planets in our solar system that have more than two moons and how massive they are to be able to keep all those moving. Considering also that your world has some sizable oceans those tides are going to be pretty crazy unless somehow the moons sort of balance them all out.

heh... its time for the twice a day 50 foot(16 meter roughly) tidal wave!!!! "Boy, when they say it's time for high tide.... they really mean HIGH tide"

Joe

Normski
06-13-2008, 10:34 PM
I find this interesting - but then again I am rather sad ;)

I am currently doing some research on plantetary positions when disasters strike our planet, and although far from conclusive, it seems that for example when the Boxing Day Tsunami struck a few year back, the planets were in specific positions. Similar story over a lot of the major earthquakes over the last 50 years.

The source of this research is an Australian farmer who was looking for a correlation between dry weather and sunspots. There is a link, but he also discovered that the planetary alignments seem to play a large part in this too.

I can go deeper if you'd like, though some of it is very dry and could hardly be described as light reading (two puns for the price of one there - :P )

waldronate
06-14-2008, 04:51 AM
I am currently doing some research on plantetary positions when disasters strike our planet, and although far from conclusive, it seems that for example when the Boxing Day Tsunami struck a few year back, the planets were in specific positions. Similar story over a lot of the major earthquakes over the last 50 years.


The skeptic in me wants to say "the planets are always in a particular configuration when something happens; it's only when you can predict something based on the configuration of planets that you'll have something there". Of course, this skeptic has been known to watch things like pro wrestling and the Jerry Springer show so be sure to take any such opinions with a grain of salt. Or a ton of salt.

Robbie
06-14-2008, 11:18 AM
My stepdad used to gauge the stock market by running historical star charts and comparing them to stock market highs and lows, and then looking for similar star and planet configurations and buying and selling based on that.

So...I'm depressed now by all this gravity talk...As a DM...what would you do...

Fake it with a good write up and talk of the power and wisdom of the gods to maintain such a delicate balance of moons around a planet?

Or change the 8 moons to something else like other planets in the system and maybe give my smallish planet two tiny moons?

Basically, the 8 moons represent the 8 core deities of the world...and two of them are the mother and father figure of the world...so thats how the cosmology and pantheon WERE supposed to line up.

jfrazierjr
06-14-2008, 11:19 AM
The skeptic in me wants to say "the planets are always in a particular configuration when something happens; it's only when you can predict something based on the configuration of planets that you'll have something there". Of course, this skeptic has been known to watch things like pro wrestling and the Jerry Springer show so be sure to take any such opinions with a grain of salt. Or a ton of salt.

Research shows that 75% of all statistics are made up.

Joe

RPMiller
06-14-2008, 12:25 PM
If you want to stay true to physics then I would go with other planets and 2 moons. If you want to let magic rule the day, then I would talk about a "magical gravity" that allows the moons to "dance about one another" as the orbit the planet. If the moons are essentially orbiting each other as they orbit the planet that would give a lot of explanation about relationships and such and you can explain that the magics involved are what prevents the real physics from tearing the planet apart. Of course you wouldn't want to anger the gods because they might do just that.:o

Midgardsormr
06-14-2008, 04:11 PM
So...I'm depressed now by all this gravity talk...As a DM...what would you do...

Fake it with a good write up and talk of the power and wisdom of the gods to maintain such a delicate balance of moons around a planet?

Or change the 8 moons to something else like other planets in the system and maybe give my smallish planet two tiny moons?


I'd do it the way I wanted and worry about justifying it later. Cosmology, after all, is one of those things that the players might never question, and if they don't challenge it, then it's right. Right?

Normski
06-14-2008, 05:05 PM
The skeptic in me wants to say "the planets are always in a particular configuration when something happens; it's only when you can predict something based on the configuration of planets that you'll have something there". Of course, this skeptic has been known to watch things like pro wrestling and the Jerry Springer show so be sure to take any such opinions with a grain of salt. Or a ton of salt.

That's what he is looking for, seeing if there is any correlation. To put it in basics - no offence intended - if you put a magnet on a TV screen, the pattern formed on the screen is a four leaf clover type of effect. This surprised me when I did it as I was expecting a typical North / South configuration - remember the experiments with iron fillings?
Well, when the planets align with these 4 "poles" then poo happens - that's the very basic theory, but as with every theory there are 1001 differenent things that can influence the idea


My stepdad used to gauge the stock market by running historical star charts and comparing them to stock market highs and lows, and then looking for similar star and planet configurations and buying and selling based on that.

So...I'm depressed now by all this gravity talk...As a DM...what would you do...

Fake it with a good write up and talk of the power and wisdom of the gods to maintain such a delicate balance of moons around a planet?

Or change the 8 moons to something else like other planets in the system and maybe give my smallish planet two tiny moons?

Basically, the 8 moons represent the 8 core deities of the world...and two of them are the mother and father figure of the world...so thats how the cosmology and pantheon WERE supposed to line up.

Are you after realism or story? You could have the moons on the same orbital plane, with the same period of rotation round the planet, equally spaced, or near enough. I.E. N - NE - E - SE - S - SW - W and NW. Whilst this sort of set up is unlikely to happen in reality, it a fantasy world for a game you are producing here. If you do this then tides would be minimal, based purely on the size and gravitational force exerted by the larger moons. (and 1001 other things I have probably forgotten about - :D )

Redrobes
06-14-2008, 06:51 PM
Assuming that the moons are not all precisely alike and spaced equally then they would pass each other in their orbits. I always thought that once you had more than 2 of these object (presumably one being the main planet) then you have the classic "N-body problem" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-body_problem) which I thought was impossible to calculate. Now I must be mistaken cos NASA go around making grand statements about Saturn and Jupiter so is anyone able to flesh out a bit how they can do it. Or is it their best guess via a super computer thrashing out a numeric simulation. Wasn't it true for example that they stated that some of Saturns moons in its ring system actually swap over orbits when they get close enough to interact ?
My opinion is to the tune of "Hey theres 5 moons - got it, oh before anyone says to the contrary, theres no silly tides cos as DM I say so." and go with that approach. Its much easier than buying a super computer. :)

Normski
06-15-2008, 12:44 PM
Getting deeper and deeper - what was it that Status Quo sang - "down down deeper and down?" :o

It must be possible as the Jovian planets (Gas Giants) all have many moons, but at very different orbits. With different orbits come different sidereal periods (length of time to orbit the main planet). This means that every once in a while there will be an occasion where all, or at least many of the moons are on one side of the planet. This would have a catastrophic effect on the tidal system as the gravitational pull of, as you are using 8 moons we'll go with that. If you had 6+ moons on one side of the planet, then unless you had magnificently high mountainous regions, then that side of the planet would be awash with the seas.

This may influence you planet's design. In the case of the gas giants, it doesn't matter so much as they are so far away from the sun so the majority of planet is frozen gas, with the outer "shell" of the planet being ... liquid then gaseous gas (?). (Assumptions borne out by information sent back from probes, Cassini et al). But your world would be relatively more landed than oceanic in order to prevent civilizations getting obliterated every so often.

Many body problems - well there are many things that could influence a moon or planets orbit. meteors or passing comets are two possibilities that spring immediately to mind. There is a theory that the moon was the result of meteor strike on a newly forming planet earth, the Chicxulub Crater and pacific are two well thought of hypothesis. The scar left by such an impact would still be around.

At the end of the day, I doubt players would question any decision you make too closely, as long as it's not too far off the wall. I mean - have you ever heard anyone questioning the non-effect of the (invisible) black moon in the world of Dragonlance? (It's name escapes me - Lunitari, is one of them - anyway back to the point). I haven't heard of anyone even raising it as a point for discussion, let alone questioning it. And that was a professional published campaign.

Norm

Robbie
06-15-2008, 03:38 PM
YOu guys are a big boost to my pride here, thanks! I think I'll stick with the 8 moons thing...I'll make them all kinda far away from the planet for sure...I'll put some thought into it.

jfrazierjr
06-15-2008, 05:42 PM
Well, the whole moon planet alignment thing could actually be a great story arc. Perhaps some type of prophesy deal with the seas rising up. perhaps the PC's can actually find some magic item that will stave off certain destruction.

Joe

Robbie
06-15-2008, 05:53 PM
See, now you're talking!

See I have the ruins of an ancient civilization spread all over the world...Perhaps one of their temples contains a magical stone that keeps the moons in perfect alignment. Too cliche? Maybe I need to pay a visit to plotstormers.

jfrazierjr
06-15-2008, 06:05 PM
See, now you're talking!

See I have the ruins of an ancient civilization spread all over the world...Perhaps one of their temples contains a magical stone that keeps the moons in perfect alignment. Too cliche? Maybe I need to pay a visit to plotstormers.

Exactly! And such occasional destruction every few hundred of thousands of years where there is a tidal wave several hundred feet high would be a great way to explain the presence of TONS of ruined cities throughout the world. Or, as you say, perhaps the past several cycles have been thwarted by some magical means. A key placed in a lock so to speak. And the key has been stolen and you now have a race against time to find and replace before destruction of half of the world. If you do decide to do this,you probably should go ahead and have a few precursor tidal waves getting progressively larger along with earth quakes and such to increase the tension a bit. Perhaps it's been so long that no one knows what the item is really for (including whoever stole it) and/or the prophecy is really vague and they have to go to various places to decode the prophecy. Or even have the prophecy split into multiple parts scattered all over the world, in addition to being cryptic. oooohhhhhh the posibilities!

Joe

Robbie
06-15-2008, 06:13 PM
I'm all over that...it may be a bit cliche, but I think I could definitely play it off pretty well...Isn't that something? I come here for the orbital collision detection, and end up with a campaign plot.

At least a plot that I can build up to for schedule completion at end of heroic tier...

Now...what would really be cool is if I can somehow use astrosynthesis or some other program to create these orbits to make sense, so I can create a visual aid maybe? Anybody got any ideas?

Normski
06-15-2008, 07:19 PM
If you make the planet bigger - I think I read it was about mars-size, then you could increase the planets gravity enough to influence the moons, yet have the moons far enough away so that the moon's gravity will not, as a rule be able to greatly influence the planet. At least not till all of the moons are in the right position / conjunction to cause the mass destruction. It sounds good to me.

Hmnnnn got me thinking now :idea:

Robbie
06-15-2008, 07:23 PM
Its a little bigger than mars...what I need to do is make the moons smaller for sure.

Robbie
06-15-2008, 08:16 PM
Here's what I got...you can see the moons are pretty small, and not that close to the planet in comparison to earth's moon. (Look at Arsala and its 8 moons)



Aran
Spectral Class: A7V
Mass: 2.042 sol
Radius: 1.77 sol
Luminosity: 12 sol
Planets: Versala, Remoralon, Arsala, Kerasalon

Versala
Planetoid
Distance: 87,894,222 km
Radius: 2452 km
Gravity: 0.01G
Orbit Period: 115.05 days
Rotation: 37 hrs

Remoralon
Distance: 140,456,234 km
Radius: 3406 km
Gravity: 0.49G
Orbit Period: 232.4 days
Rotation: 28 hrs
Inhospitable
Moons: Reilihan, Bailierron

Reilihan
Distance: 37,049 km
Radius: 1781 km
Gravity: 0.28G
Orbit Period: 2.19 days
Rotation: 0 hrs
Inhospitable

Bailierron
Ring
Distance: 46,136 km
Ring Width: 541 km


Arsala
Distance: 188,039,300 km
Radius: 3955 km
Gravity: 0.7G
Orbit Period: 360 days
Rotation: 20 hrs
Habitable
Population: Unknown
Moons: Empaloran, Fastidius, Urlora, Levior, Balnan, Menestra, Earanuil, Consecra

Empaloran
Distance: 184,232 km
Radius: 456 km
Gravity: 0.08G
Orbit Period: 17.44 days
Rotation: 12 hrs
Inhospitable

Fastidius
Distance: 234,543 km
Radius: 562 km
Gravity: 0.1G
Orbit Period: 25.05 days
Rotation: 17 hrs
Habitable
Population: 120

Urlora
Distance: 323,434 km
Radius: 532 km
Gravity: 0.08G
Orbit Period: 40.56 days
Rotation: 38 hrs
Habitable
Population: 2,000

Levior
Distance: 356,733 km
Radius: 531 km
Gravity: 0.05G
Orbit Period: 46.98 days
Rotation: 53 hrs
Habitable
Population: 12

Balnan
Distance: 378,943 km
Radius: 354 km
Gravity: 0.05G
Orbit Period: 51.44 days
Rotation: 74 hrs
Habitable
Population: 80

Menestra
Distance: 398,922 km
Radius: 687 km
Gravity: 0.13G
Orbit Period: 55.56 days
Rotation: 47 hrs
Habitable
Population: 160

Earanuil
Distance: 456,372 km
Radius: 762 km
Gravity: 0.11G
Orbit Period: 67.98 days
Rotation: 59 hrs
Habitable
Population: 642

Consecra
Distance: 523,432 km
Radius: 465 km
Gravity: 0.07G
Orbit Period: 83.5 days
Rotation: 0 hrs
Inhospitable


Kerasalon
Distance: 222,139,403 km
Radius: 5574 km
Gravity: 0.86G
Orbit Period: 462.24 days
Rotation: 85 hrs
Habitable
Moons: Ernodenden, Onstu

Ernodenden
Ring
Distance: 10,748 km
Ring Width: 390 km

Onstu
Distance: 270,363 km
Radius: 377 km
Gravity: 0.07G
Orbit Period: 19.89 days
Rotation: 119.2 hrs
Inhospitable

jfrazierjr
06-15-2008, 08:43 PM
I still would maintain that if your friend registered his copy of AS and is willing to be a go between for a few days, that the AS/FM mailing list is THE best place to present this. The mailing list is active in spurts and if I remember correctly (Fractal Mapper and AstroSynthesis both share the same mailing list) there are at least a few astronomers and NASA type people who are regulars on the list. There are some really smart guys over there on that list who should be able to answer this question fairly quickly(though perhaps not the answer you want.)

Joe

su_liam
06-17-2008, 03:55 AM
I've gotta say, while I don't remotely believe in astrological stuff, I also don't believe in magic, so hey...

In a fantasy setting I'd be all for astrology. Magic could readily be aspected by astrological conditions. In a science-fiction/science-fantasy setting like something out of Jack Chalker you could have some sort of ancient alien artifact on one of the moons that has, "magical," effects on the planet when the moon is in conjunction with another moon with it's own artifact. The magic goes away... and comes back... and goes away again periodically. There's a reason why the were-critters come out at a full Menestra.