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Jacktannery
05-01-2013, 06:13 PM
This is a community guild project to build a fantasy-type 'globe theatre' (request thread here: http://www.cartographersguild.com/mapmaking-requests/23225-update-theatre-map.html).

Anstett has the basic floor plans (divided into six maps) and layout of the theatre, and myself, Meshon, and whoever else would like to assist will use this thread to make the objects (chairs; curtains; stages; open seating; sandbags? etc.) and textures (mostly wood I guess).

The entire theatre measures 300 feet by 150 feet, so each of the six maps will measure c. 100 feet square (ie 20 five-foot grid-squares across). At 100ppi this means each of the six maps measures 2000x2000 pixels. The scale for all objects and textures is thus 1 foot = 20 pixels; 5 feet (1 gridsquare) = 100 pixels = 1 inch when printed out.

In any case, anyone can contribute here, and all images uploaded in this thread can be used by anyone for NON-COMMERCIAL USE ONLY.

Step one is for Anstett to upload here his basic floorplans of the theatre.

anstett
05-01-2013, 07:47 PM
I mentioned on the previous thread that the DPI/size request was just copying from other works for hire posts. I defer to the experts on proper map and file sizes.

I have emailed the original drawings to Jack so he can chose which is the best way to start this off.

BOB

Jacktannery
05-02-2013, 07:01 AM
Anstett's maps from an old dungeon magazine apparently; Anstett maybe you can look up the name of the original arist so that we can credit them - I'm sure they won't mind that we are posting these up here since we are attempting a fan-homage of their work.

Later on today, when I have time, I will post some ideas for breaking this up into six sensible encounter maps as described in post 1.

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vorropohaiah
05-02-2013, 07:29 AM
this is great! i love proper building plan maps and theatres hav a very unique layout that i think looks great. this is very interesting to see

Jacktannery
05-02-2013, 08:14 AM
I tried to establish the scale of the main theatre map. I have added this blue 5-foot grid for clarity.

The key thing about the theatre is that it is symetrical. This means that we only need to make 50% of it, and then mirror our images for the other half. Also, many of the stories have lots of open-air space so again this helps to make it easier.

For the basic ground floor layout, I see us needing to create a map of 5,000 pixels long and 1,600 pixels wide, as per the red area on the image below. This should be doable in one map or perhaps in two half-maps. Lets call it two 2,500x1,600 pix maps.

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After this base is done, we can then create the basement - two more maps of the same size that we again can mirror.

Then the upper floors: three of these in total I think. This makes six more maps. Thus we need 10 maps in total. Since this is a good bit more than anticipated, I propose we just deal with the three most important seating floors first, and then later on if we want to, we can add in the roof storage and basment.

So, to conclude:

1. two 5000x1600px maps ground floor theatre & main stage.
2. two 5000x1600px maps upper seating level & second backstage level
3. two 5000x1600px maps box seating & third backstage level

Did I get those the right way around? Or are boxes supposed to be lower than the upper seating?

anstett
05-02-2013, 09:38 AM
This looks great.

From what I have seen in all the larger wooden buildings I have looked at in books etc. the ground floor would have been flat with the center there having chairs as you show. Then there is the box seating with the curtains one level up. The image I had was a bowl of long wooden benches fixed in place like modern bleacher seating at a local school.

I think the scale of the building looks very nice as you have it there.

The original inspiration for my adventure comes from Legerdemain by Matthew Michael Patrick Schutt, in Dungeon #39 (Jan/Feb 1992) with artwork by Paul Jaquays. edit found that person's website: http://www.jaquays.com

BOB

Additional information:

I had some contact with the artist and found that she did the cover art and interior but not the cartography for that issue

The person who did is Diesel and here is his website as well:
http://shadowcastings.samsbiz.com//?op=showcreator&creatorid=510

Jacktannery
05-02-2013, 09:45 AM
Supercaptain made a superb stage in 2009 using dragonwolf's renders of some curtains here Dundjinni Mapping Software - Forums: AR’’curtains and stage (http://dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=11565) . I think we should reuse these (no point reinventing the wheel...).

As for the ground floor main part of the seating, I propose we use some nice red chairs Bogie uploaded - the ones I am thinking of are similar to the blue one in this post http://www.cartographersguild.com/mapping-elements/16821-mapping-elements-starting-preset-tables-chairs-13.html#post191069 and Bogie uploaded a series of slightly different versions in red. I'll have to ask Bogie about them.

In my opinion, the most difficult of the ground floor map will be the tiered seating. This should be made of wood. Construction will involve bending a planks-of-wood texture around in the curve, then overlaying tiers of shadow. The bending of textures in this way is very difficult to do - at least in Gimp. Or perhaps we can just use some pews Bogie uploaded previously in his map elements tread and use those arranged end to end along the tiers?

Jacktannery
05-02-2013, 10:09 AM
Right, I have re-examined you maps and I have discovered something important: the image labelled 'box seats and basements' does not show box seats: instead it shows a basement level. The image labelled 'upper seating level' shows the box seats. Thus the plan revised:

1. two 5000x1600px maps ground floor theatre & main stage.
2. two 5000x1600px maps upper seating level (boxes & balcony) & second backstage level
3. two 5000x1600px basement level and underworld

----------

EDIT

I also found this link - possible useful inspiration. http://paizo.com/products/btpy8otq?GameMastery-FlipMat-Theater

Schwarzkreuz
05-02-2013, 10:20 AM
This looks like an interesting Project. But I dont realy know how I could contribute so I am just stick to observe it till I got an Idea.

Jacktannery
05-02-2013, 02:13 PM
Ok here I put together in fifteen minutes Bogie's lovely chairs (thanks Bogie!), Supercaptain's stage, Dragonwolfe's curtain, some benches I assembled from photos of bits of wood (some of which may have been taken by Bogie) and a nice wood texture. This is just to give us something to discuss. Like I said above, I think the tiered seating is going to be the biggest challenge on this map. We need a plan for that.

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aquarits
05-02-2013, 03:35 PM
nice!

I just guess that for a mazing place like tis, you have to take care about the entrance hall, belive that you have to get more to receive the VIP persons.

Meshon
05-02-2013, 04:26 PM
Here's a first go at getting some wood to curve. I initially thought I'd try to do it with Illustrator brushes but then the wood textures really don't match up. As you can see I'm having trouble getting the radius of my curve to match up with the theatre precisely but is this maybe a step in the right direction?
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Also for this example I just plunked a layer mask on what I'd done so that it could be combined with Jacktannery's awesomeness, but we need to figure out a way that contributors can offer useful pieces without causing extra hassles. Jacktannery are you using GIMP? I'm guessing my best move then would be to provide .png graphics that are trimmed to fit?

Say like this (scaled down to conserve bandwidth):
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cheers,
Meshon

Jacktannery
05-02-2013, 04:48 PM
Excellent! You are a genius Meshon - I knew you could do it.

But we need it much bigger - at over 3000 pixels long please. Save it as a jpg (90% quality), post it up here, and I will remove the white bits with the fuzzy select tool manually. That should work fine.

Your middle two tiers are perfect, so upload that version and we can cut those out of it. But it would be great if you could curve it to make the lowest (walkway) tier, and remake the uppermost tier.

The other thing we need to do is to remake the stage a bit better. I can make the metal bits, ropes and that sort of thing So can you make us some amazing intricately curving wooden planks? We can keep simple floorboards in the main part of the stage, but it would be lovely to have a curving wooden frame and curving wooden steps up the side of the stage.

Here's the wood texture I was using - it's not seamless but seams on planks are easy to fix. If you do spend lots of time stitching this floor together to make it seamless when you are doing the curving, then it makes sense for you to use all the wood. If you find a nicer texture use that instead obviously - but we do need to stick with a single texture for everything I think.

Go team!

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Meshon
05-02-2013, 06:32 PM
Sorry for the longish post, just need to get some things straight in my head.

But we need it much bigger - at over 3000 pixels long please.
Do you mean the section where the curved tiers turn straight and head east? I should extend that section so it fills the rest of the balcony floor space on the map, is that right?


Your middle two tiers are perfect, so upload that version and we can cut those out of it. But it would be great if you could curve it to make the lowest (walkway) tier, and remake the uppermost tier.
Here do you mean I should curve the floor as well? I was thinking that only the tiers that are above the floor should be curved since it's expensive and time consuming to soak the wood planks, set them in forms and dry them until they have a nice curve. Also it's a little harder for me to do tight curves and as the radius of the curve gets smaller towards the centre the distortion ramps up a bit.


The other thing we need to do is to remake the stage a bit better. I can make the metal bits, ropes and that sort of thing So can you make us some amazing intricately curving wooden planks? We can keep simple floorboards in the main part of the stage, but it would be lovely to have a curving wooden frame and curving wooden steps up the side of the stage.
I should be able to work that out, especially since the stage is symmetrical I'll just do the one side. But I think that might take a bit longer, I may need to figure out a technique other than the built-in warp that I'm using in Photoshop at the moment. But definitely doable. Do-able? fortunately I'm building here, not spelling!


Here's the wood texture I was using - it's not seamless but seams on planks are easy to fix. If you do spend lots of time stitching this floor together to make it seamless when you are doing the curving, then it makes sense for you to use all the wood. If you find a nicer texture use that instead obviously - but we do need to stick with a single texture for everything I think.
The wood texture I used was one that seemed close to yours. It is much easier to warp and bend it if it tiles seamlessly. Maybe we can use a couple of similar but not identical wood textures? That said, I will play around with the one you've uploaded here and see if I can make something seamless out of it. I've managed to do that in the past at least once or twice. Just have to remember how it goes :?:



Go team!
Agreed! This is great.

cheers,
Meshon

anstett
05-02-2013, 06:44 PM
Fully agreed that this is a great project and great progress already!

For the different wood textures as Mishon mentions that works great. Most places like this would have been built and rebuilt over time so there would be various types of wood as well as the wear and tear of use.

BOB

wonders if the director is a Centaur if any of the rooms in the back will fit him? just an idle thought....

Jacktannery
05-02-2013, 06:51 PM
We have some wires crossed I think!


Do you mean the section where the curved tiers turn straight and head east? I should extend that section so it fills the rest of the balcony floor space on the map, is that right?

The issue is that the image you posted called 'croppedfloor.png' backthread is scaled down (as you admitted). I want the full scale version for the map.


Here do you mean I should curve the floor as well? I was thinking that only the tiers that are above the floor should be curved since it's expensive and time consuming to soak the wood planks, set them in forms and dry them until they have a nice curve. Also it's a little harder for me to do tight curves and as the radius of the curve gets smaller towards the centre the distortion ramps up a bit.

The 'floor' you refer to is, I think, a curved raised balcony supported by pillars. I think it would look lovely curved but if it is too much hassle we won't bother. Try it anyway.


I should be able to work that out, especially since the stage is symmetrical I'll just do the one side. But I think that might take a bit longer, I may need to figure out a technique other than the built-in warp that I'm using in Photoshop at the moment. But definitely doable. Do-able? fortunately I'm building here, not spelling!

Indeed. Yes this is a trickier part - I did not know you were warping in photoshop - in GIMP I have the iwarp tool too which is the same. It's a pain to use for this sort of thing. For the stage we need to design it first - we don't need to use the same design that Supercaptain used; I'l like something with a complicated curving tiered staircase (now that I know that I can push you to curve wood!). Ideally we would have a talented artist draw us a sketch of a lovely ornate boutique-baroque stage, then I could turn it into a scaled plan, then you could curve the wood for the edges/frame, and we could fill the inside with a simple plank texture. Otherwise, at 'work' tomorrow in the office I could google some images of stages and try to come up with a nice plan. What I would like would be to have a double line of curving planks all around the edge of the stage, 'framing' it. Technically difficult, but it would be very impressive.


The wood texture I used was one that seemed close to yours. It is much easier to warp and bend it if it tiles seamlessly. Maybe we can use a couple of similar but not identical wood textures? That said, I will play around with the one you've uploaded here and see if I can make something seamless out of it. I've managed to do that in the past at least once or twice. Just have to remember how it goes


I had not realised you had used a different texture - I thought you had just cut and pasted mine! Your wood texture is amazing! And seamless! yay. And I think it is better actually to use a slightly different texture for the stage and balcony than on the floor. Ignore my uploaded texture and just use your own. I could create a seamless texture out of mine too, but I hate seamless textures and refuse to use them nowadays out of pointless stubbornism.

Jacktannery
05-02-2013, 07:00 PM
I agree Anstett.


wonders if the director is a Centaur if any of the rooms in the back will fit him? just an idle thought....

Not sure I follow - are there rooms behind the stage? I don't see them. Do you mean the little rooms on the second and third floors of the stage? If so, do you want me to change the plans of the theatre that you emailed me to enlarge some of the small rooms up there? Or do you mean the doorways behind the stage leading outside? They will be five-feet wide so wide enough for a centaur I imagine.

anstett
05-02-2013, 07:15 PM
Not sure I follow - are there rooms behind the stage? I don't see them. Do you mean the little rooms on the second and third floors of the stage? If so, do you want me to change the plans of the theatre that you emailed me to enlarge some of the small rooms up there? Or do you mean the doorways behind the stage leading outside? They will be five-feet wide so wide enough for a centaur I imagine.

The doorways and those small room are what I was thinking and no I do not think a Centaur would want an office on the second floor :P so I will have to consider my NPC choice for an odd ball theater director. Hmmmm a Fremlin flying around with a concert director's baton swatting actors into posistion.

Meshon
05-02-2013, 08:19 PM
Warp tool is a bit of a pain to use, though not impossible. Easy for a very simple warp, but gets difficult quickly. I will play with it a bit and also have a hunt around for some other options. I love Illustrator brushes for things like this but its hard to get a convincing wood texture that is simple enough to use as a brush.

I'm game to try curving the balcony. I think I'd better have another careful look at the map and get a better sense of what's where. Onward!

cheers,
Meshon

RobA
05-03-2013, 10:09 AM
Here's the wood texture I was using - it's not seamless but seams on planks are easy to fix. If you do spend lots of time stitching this floor together to make it seamless when you are doing the curving, then it makes sense for you to use all the wood. If you find a nicer texture use that instead obviously - but we do need to stick with a single texture for everything I think.


I bent that texture into a circle. It is a tad large (33 MB) http://www.silent9.com/incoming/round.png

If it is useful, please feel free to use it. It might need a little adjustment but it should be close at the radius desired.


-Rob A>

Jacktannery
05-03-2013, 10:52 AM
I bent that texture into a circle. It is a tad large (33 MB) http://www.silent9.com/incoming/round.png

If it is useful, please feel free to use it. It might need a little adjustment but it should be close at the radius desired.


-Rob A>

Thanks Rob! That's very helpful. Did you use FILTER>DISTORT>POLAR COORDINATE in Gimp? I had used that to make a tower for my castle but then forgot about it.

Jacktannery
05-03-2013, 11:27 AM
Ok here is a little collage I made from interweb images. This is to see if we are all on the same page regarding the type of theatre we want to create here.

I have in my head something small and ornate like the two baroque theatres in Cesky Krumlov (top left). In the top right are four images that show four possible colour schemes for us to choose from. I really like the blue and gold scheme - I think it looks classy and sophisticated. Red feels a little 'cinema' to me.

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anstett
05-03-2013, 11:40 AM
All four of the upper left are really nice for design ideas.

I agree that Red seems a bit too royal. Blue would be a nice change of pace I think.

But I am not an expert on color at all.

BOB

Jacktannery
05-03-2013, 02:08 PM
I agree Anstett. Here is my new design for a baroque stage. The grey bits on each side are curved steps. The front dangly bits are gold-painted carved wood (?). I am absolutely confident that Meshon can curve wood to this exact shape. I am attaching a .png at the correct scale so Meshon can use this as a template.

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EDIT

I have recoloured Dangerwolfe's curtains to match the two colourschemes I liked the best. I also managed to remove the shadow around it (with HUGE difficulty!).

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Meshon
05-03-2013, 05:13 PM
The stage looks really fantastic! I'm sorry I don't have a whole bunch of time right now, but I will hopefully catch up in the next day or two and get to some wood-bending. And kudos for the shadow removal, I fully understand what that can entail!

cheers
Meshon

Jacktannery
05-03-2013, 06:25 PM
Thanks Meshon - here is more work on the stage.

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Bogie
05-03-2013, 07:17 PM
Cool project, how did I miss this?

If you like the chairs I made ( they are photos of a friend's dining room set ) I also have them in blue.
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And here are a couple other blue chairs I did.

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Edit note: I cleaned up the last blue chair

Jacktannery
05-03-2013, 07:45 PM
That's fantastic Bogie - we'll definitely use those lovely blue chairs.

anstett
05-04-2013, 01:01 AM
Cool project, how did I miss this?

Come on in the more the merrier!


Edit note: I cleaned up the last blue chair

Maybe some dirty chairs are appropriate too ;) it is a public place

BOB

Jacktannery
05-04-2013, 06:07 AM
We also need a pale blue (or red) carpet to run down the centre of the ground floor (thus concealing our seam) and probably elsewhere too. I've never made a carpet texture before. I'd quite like it to be a bit worn. I will begin some research.

Jacktannery
05-04-2013, 08:25 AM
I have made two carpets to fit down the middle - red and blue so that we can choose. I'd like to add some gold trim but not sure how yet. I am attaching the .jpgs; they are to scale. Notice how they look worn down the middle - very proud of that! Only problem is that I completely forgot to save the digital file and I never made any .pngs so the quality will not be great - basically the version uploaded here is the only version that exists now.

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EDIT: added some gold trim.

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Jacktannery
05-04-2013, 11:59 AM
And here is a balcony and some pillars, reused from other projects. I don't have Meshon's curving skills so it's a bit crappy; but it will do I think. The pillars and balcony will probably need to be recoloured once we settle on a scheme.

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Jacktannery
05-04-2013, 03:53 PM
Everything combined to see what it looks like now. The shadows are a bit heavy-handed (this is only a quick try-out) and I recoloured Bogie's chairs really fast.

Meshon - I really like your walls. They looks kind of golden/wooden.

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aquarits
05-04-2013, 04:50 PM
looking nice, the carpet is overlapping some features.

Jacktannery
05-05-2013, 06:48 AM
Yes I know aquaris - that's because the southern half of the map is just a mirrored copy.

Guys I have to work on a commission so I need to take a break from this for a while; still I think I have made us a good start. Meshon (or anyone) can you take over the reins? You can either work on the staircases (which really need to be widened to be 10-feet/2-squares wide I think) or else on either one of the two other floors:

2. upper seating level (boxes & balcony) & second backstage level
3. basement level and underworld

Ta.

Simon33600
05-05-2013, 10:18 AM
That's an awesome project.


I have a map going already but, then, I'd love to try and help out if I can...

Bogie
05-05-2013, 10:46 AM
Great work Jack!

Meshon
05-06-2013, 03:42 PM
Jacktannery, this is awesome and you've put in a rep-worthy amount of work already. I too have had to take a bit of a break but I will try to put some more time in soon. I'm hoping to find a solution to curving a border around the stage and then I will get the balcony flooring looking a bit more... aligned. I think I can use RobA's curved texture to overcome the problems I was having earlier! Yay for community building projects!

cheers,
Meshon

Jacktannery
05-06-2013, 04:14 PM
Ok great - If I recall correctly Anstett was not in a hurry for the theatre. I'm over here by the way for the next month or so: http://www.cartographersguild.com/virtual-tabletop-battlemap-mapping/18430-p3-assault-nightwyrn-fortress-encounter-maps-6.html

anstett
05-06-2013, 04:26 PM
There is a ton of progress already in just the first couple of days.

Thank you Jack, Meshon, Bogie and others who contributed ideas or pieces.

I will not be using these maps for a couple of months in my own campaign. I am happy to have something like this outthere for everyone to enjoy and modify for themselves.

BOB

Meshon
05-06-2013, 05:41 PM
I'm not sure if it's too late to do this, but I know that one of the stumbling blocks I'm having is with aligning things to the grid. Now, I know 'real world' construction isn't aligned that way all the time, and in general architects don't tend to work with a 5' grid, but do you think it would be useful to have the walls etc. fixed firmly on a 5' square grid? It would cause some distortion to the original plan to make things line up, but I know it would be easier for me to work with.

I've attached a png file of the walls that I think would be easy for everyone to work with and also a jpeg showing how my adjustments (in blue) overlay the original map. Let me know if this is a desirable direction to go. It's very easy for me to then make the walls look more like wood or whatever, but I've just left this sample in monochrome to reduce file size. I realize finally that, when you have a very limited colour palate, a .png file can actually be very efficient for file size!

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Laying out the walls like this is a fairly quick task too, so it's something I could contribute until I find the answer to making wood curve.

In regards to that, here's my latest go at it. My problem is that if I get something that I can curve easily it just doesn't quite match the more realistic look of our wood textures.

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cheers,
Meshon

anstett
05-06-2013, 05:54 PM
Grids are nice to help layout things during design but the final map would have a gridless version anyway.

I also find most of the buildings/maps that I like are not quite true squared things. Matt Jackson does a lot of those just off kilter walls very well.

BOB

Jacktannery
05-06-2013, 06:15 PM
Anstett - I totally agree with your plan adjustments in blue - I definitely think we should go with them - in particular expanding the staircases to two full grid squares width. Great work on the theatre wood too!

Meshon
05-06-2013, 06:39 PM
Just a quick update (I avoided some other work today by playing with the curvy wood again). This version looks better but it doesn't work on the sharp corners. Maybe we could fill those in by hand?

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And regarding the grid, I should probably clarify why I suggested the 'blue prints'. When I'm trying to work out curves especially, it's easier for me to manage if things line up regularly. Also in my experience having most things fit to a regular grid does help on the VTT. I'm thinking in particular of stairs here. If we go with 7.5' wide stairs you might end up with awkward questions of position when the players are moving around the map.

However, Anstett, the theatre needs to represent the space you want to play in, so if you're not keen on the modifications (in blue) let me know. If they ARE okay, I will do the walls for the other levels of the map too.

cheers,
Meshon

anstett
05-06-2013, 10:10 PM
Meshon,

I am very happy with the modifications you made. I was only mentioning that the final product should not have a grid on it. Or at least there be a grid-less option for everyone.

The VTT I use (Klooge) does all the measurements for us with no grids required and players can move naturally around the maps and let the program do the math for them.

BOB

Meshon
05-07-2013, 12:52 AM
Meshon,

I am very happy with the modifications you made. I was only mentioning that the final product should not have a grid on it. Or at least there be a grid-less option for everyone.

The VTT I use (Klooge) does all the measurements for us with no grids required and players can move naturally around the maps and let the program do the math for them.

BOB

Oh excellent! Yes, I'm on the same page as far as gridless maps, I mean, you can always add a grid in if you need one but it's hard to take out of a map that has it built in. Also I was thinking in terms of D&D's stuck on a grid game style, which is odd since my gaming lately has been totally free move (playing Mordheim on MapTool).

There's a few spots on the map where I moved the walls a bit blatantly, like a half-square, just to line up with the 5' grid. So now I'm wondering what you think; keep the walls close to the original map (so there'll be some 7.5' stairways) or open it up a little to make the map more amenable to gridded game-play.

Or to rephrase as an attempt at design philosophy, how do we design the map space so that it is inviting to the largest number of potential users? Hmmm, maybe I'm overthinking this one.

Also I just realized I put a wall where a railing should be. I think I'm having trouble visualizing the split-level or whatever is happening there.

cheers,
Meshon

Meshon
05-08-2013, 05:10 PM
I'm still struggling a bit with how the maps fit together, but to me it looks like the map called Box Seats and Basement is below the tiered seats shown on the Overall Layout map, but on the same level (ground) as the seats shown in the centre of the Overall Layout map. The Overall Layout map seems to be showing two levels together. So if you were sitting in the seats in the centre and you looked around you would see the curtains for the box seats level. It seems like those curtained alcoves wouldn't be very good seats, since the people on the ground floor seating would kind of be in the way. Are they just used to store chairs? The closest example I can find is this (http://politicworm.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/parliament-chamber-theater.jpg), so if the bottom row of seating in this picture had a little less headroom then I could see it working. Also not sure what all the small square chambers with doors are for on the Box Seats map are for. You certainly couldn't see the play from there. The access to this level also confuses me a bit, since it comes only from the area that includes the tiered seating. You'd think that if it was for storage then access would come from back stage.

Ultimately we can, of course, alter the original plan as it suits anstett, but I just want to figure out what each part of the map is for and where it fits.

Does it seem like I'm on the right track?

cheers,
Meshon

Edit: The maps I'm referring to are here (http://www.cartographersguild.com/building-structure-mapping/23227-theatre-project.html#post214681).

Jacktannery
05-08-2013, 07:14 PM
Meshon - did you see my post No. 8 in this thread? I think I had the same problem and resolved it.

Meshon
05-09-2013, 02:24 AM
Meshon - did you see my post No. 8 in this thread? I think I had the same problem and resolved it.
Yes, I had read that over to see if it resolved my uncertainty. I'm still trying to make sense of the relative positions of the various maps. Is your take on it that there are then two basement levels? Or am I right in positioning the "box seats" map (the one with all the little curtains over the doors) on the same level as the seating in the centre of the theatre? I wasn't totally certain from your post that we were seeing the same thing. What I'll do is put up a map tomorrow, that will be more concrete. Or we might be on exactly the same page and I'm just too fog-brained, definitely a possibility!

So if the maps are made up of all the floor-plans that are on the same level, we would have:
1. Basement
2. A combination of the centre area of overall layout, the curtained "boxes" and the "underworld"
3. The tiered seating and the main stage level
4. Second backstage level
5. Third backstage level
6. Upper seating and fourth backstage
7. Roof storage

Does that look the same as your concept?

cheers,
Meshon

Jacktannery
05-09-2013, 05:36 AM
No - it was not my concept. But this is an accurate description of the theatre maps Anstett provided. The problem I immediately saw was that we would be making too many maps if we simply tried to recreate every level of the theatre - not good. I'm not sure where Anstett got the six maps from either - I counted many many more if we did everything.

My concept was thus to cut all this down to just three levels, and make only half of each of the levels:

1. 5000x1600px map ground floor theatre & main stage [upper half - then mirror this for the lower half]. This is http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachments/building-structure-mapping/54156d1367488838-theatre-project-overall-layout.jpg
2. 5000x1600px maps upper seating level (boxes & balcony) & second backstage level [upper half - then mirror this for the lower half]. This is http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachments/building-structure-mapping/54158d1367488853-theatre-project-upper-seating-level.jpg
3. 5000x1600px basement level and underworld [upper half - then mirror this for the lower half]. This is the left hand of http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachments/building-structure-mapping/54154d1367488823-theatre-project-box-seats-basement.jpg and the left hand of http://www.cartographersguild.com/attachments/building-structure-mapping/54153d1367488814-theatre-project-backstage-levels.jpg

This significantly cuts down on the neccessary work, cuts out a lot of the boring 'chaff' from the theatre (roof storage level?) and is a more realistic goal I felt. Of course, once we did that we might decide we love it so much that we want to do every single level.

Meshon
05-09-2013, 11:33 AM
Jacktannery, thank you for taking the time to sort this out with me. I think I finally have an understanding of what you're suggesting and it sounds like a great idea, to compress the theatre a little bit and streamline the maps. Having a clearer understanding of the layout I can get some more work done.

cheers,
Meshon

Jacktannery
05-09-2013, 12:32 PM
No problem - I am still keeping up with this even though I am too busy to contribute much. I love your curved wood stage-frame on post 44 by the way - I think that's perfect! If you post me the curved wood on a transparent background .png here, I'll add it to the stage and post it back up here.

Meshon
05-09-2013, 01:03 PM
Here's two versions of the curved wood, one with a slight shadow on its edges and one without.
54390
54391

cheers,
Meshon

anstett
05-09-2013, 03:34 PM
Yes to Jack,

The original idea was just the basement, main floor, theater seating bowl and the backstage areas.

The box seating I think works as Jack pointed out in his #2.

By the way I have heard in email from both the artists/cartographers who did this adventure back for the original and they have enjoyed seeing the interest in their work still.

BOB

Meshon
05-09-2013, 04:00 PM
By the way I have heard in email from both the artists/cartographers who did this adventure back for the original and they have enjoyed seeing the interest in their work still.

That's very cool news! It's fun building on their maps.

cheers,
Meshon

Meshon
05-22-2013, 01:24 PM
Hello, I just wanted to post and say I'm still interested in this, but school is just busy right now. I will put in some more time when I can. My next goal is to do all the walls as .png files so that we can start filling in textures. Any preference or ideas for wall thickness? My suggestion would just be to use 20px, though if you like we could have different sizes for interior and exterior walls. 20px is one scale foot, so fairly thick, but also visible.

Let me know what you think.

cheers,
Meshon

Jacktannery
05-22-2013, 03:41 PM
I'm still here too but I'll be too busy to contribute much for the next couple of months so power ahead when you get a chance Meshon.

anstett
05-22-2013, 04:11 PM
That scale sounds good Meshon as it makes it easy for everyone to work with.

BOB

Simon33600
05-23-2013, 06:19 PM
Hello guys. I just finished my latest project. This mean that I could contribute to this one, if it helps. As mentionned, I find it a really cool and original project and would be happy to contribute if there is anything I can do...

Jacktannery
05-23-2013, 06:48 PM
Brillo - yes there is LOADS for you to do - go ahead. Why don't you begin the next floor up with the boxes?

Simon33600
05-23-2013, 06:59 PM
I will look into that this week end...

Simon33600
05-24-2013, 06:13 PM
Hello guys.


As mentioned, I started working on the box-seat level.

So; without further ado about nothing, here is where I got so far:


54857


What do you think? I used layer masks at just about every steps so that it would be easy to swap textures as needed... I need to be a bit creative with proportions on the right most portion of the map, and some of the rooms seem a bit on the smallish side...
Also, I still need to work on the stairs. The two curved stairs worry me a bit, maybe just adding some shadows to RobA's wooden circle will do.

Simon33600
05-24-2013, 06:15 PM
Well; there is a funky bit surrounding the map... I think it is a side-effect of the way I made the raillings... shouldn't be too hard too fix...

Jacktannery
05-24-2013, 06:48 PM
That's quite brilliant Simon. You can take off the brown square grid - we'll make this a gridless map to make it easier for more people to use.

For me, the colour is off, and won't mesh with the overall blue and gold colourscheme. Can you desaturate and de-red it and tone it down to the levels of the ground floor map?

I think the map would be improved if all the walls looked the same - so perhaps make the box walls the same colour as the main walls. And in fact, your funky surround bit is the PERFECT colour and texture for the walls - so you should use that!

Otherwise I love it! We'll use some plush blue chairs from Bogie to put in the boxes, and we're done.

Simon33600
05-24-2013, 07:14 PM
Definitively.
I need to lift some patterns from the previous maps and use these instead (that's what I mean with "swapping texture", I meant, patterns, sorry).

In fact, may we should start a thread to post the various patterns so that we can all use the same?



I am not sure about the colour being all that great for the walls, it seems a bit pale to me:
54869

Should we put the chairs or try to make something that look like build in benches?

Jacktannery
05-24-2013, 08:11 PM
Simon, check out post 13 of this thread for a wood texture that I was using.

I agree that your walls are not quite right; however they are not the same as the wonderful golden multi-hued woody thing you had on your funky border that I liked so much.

Regarding benches/chairs - that's up to you.

Simon33600
05-25-2013, 07:49 AM
Ok...

So that's closer from what you have in mind?

54880

I think that makes use of the pattern you like so much...

I will look into the benches sometime later...


Here is the pattern, by the way:
54881

Simon33600
05-25-2013, 09:40 AM
Also, I have tried to curved the planks on the Westernmost side of the building, similar to what Meshon posted here (http://www.cartographersguild.com/building-structure-mapping/23227-theatre-project-2.html#post214729) but my efforts are not nearly as good.

Meshon, could you repost your picture, but without the shadow effect?

Meshon
06-03-2013, 05:27 PM
Hi, I'm just getting that together and I think I'll be able to provide you with a fill layer that should work. Also I'm going to post the walls for the main floor and the basement level. Hopefully within a couple of hours.

cheers,
Meshon

Meshon
06-03-2013, 05:56 PM
Okay, hopefully this is useful Simon33600. I'm also attaching my images of the walls for the main and basement floor; they are just png files with the walls in white so that patterns can be easily applied. I should have a little time over the next day to get the tiered seating level cleaned up.
55104
55105
55106

cheers,
Meshon

Edit: Oof, I just realized there's a nasty gap in the middle of the curved section. I wasn't paying attention to that part because it's actually cut out on the two floors I'm working on. Unfortunately it's also the spot where opposite sides of the texture meet so my efforts to repair it are a little weak. Maybe you can patch it?

Simon33600
06-03-2013, 05:59 PM
Seems good.

I will try to look over it sometime this week.

Meshon
06-03-2013, 06:24 PM
I think I fixed the gap, try this:
55117

cheers,
Meshon

Edit: Okay, so apparently I don't know how to attach images from my album. Trying again as an attachment.

Simon33600
06-03-2013, 06:39 PM
Oh, yeah, I hadn't noticed. It looks much better now, thanks!

Simon33600
06-04-2013, 06:00 PM
Ok, so I replaces my floor with Meshon and took the opportunity to add the seats and remove the grid...


55130


The floor certainly looks much better now. Thanks Meshon.

Jacktannery
06-04-2013, 06:19 PM
Very good work Simon. Now you just need to make the steps to the left go downwards. We'll also need to recolour those chairs to the agreed colour scheme (ie to match the rug on Post 31) - so if you are not sure how to do this (it's pretty easy) you will need to put them on a separate transparent '.png' for someone else to do.

Simon33600
06-04-2013, 06:32 PM
Well; I'd prefer to make the stairs separately, actually, so that the planks don't go accross multiple steps.

Oh, for the chairs, we are going for a paler blue, right?

also, I just noticed the balcony you posted (http://www.cartographersguild.com/building-structure-mapping/23227-theatre-project-4.html#post214904). Can you repost it without the background? That way I will use it in lieu of my railling...

anstett
06-04-2013, 08:32 PM
I have to say that this is just Fricking Awesome so far.

BOB

jtougas
06-05-2013, 12:31 AM
WOW.... I can't believe I'm just seeing this for the first time now. What a great project and all involved are doing fabulous work :)

Bogie
06-05-2013, 02:30 AM
Excellent work with the floors!!!

Jacktannery
06-05-2013, 04:35 AM
also, I just noticed the balcony you posted (http://www.cartographersguild.com/building-structure-mapping/23227-theatre-project-4.html#post214904). Can you repost it without the background? That way I will use it in lieu of my railling...

Sure - here.

55138

Simon33600
06-09-2013, 01:25 PM
Ok; I worked on the stairs as well as the balcony and the colour of the seats...


What do you think of it?

55217

Jacktannery
06-09-2013, 01:45 PM
Very good Simon, but it looks a bit small. Did you reduce the size of your image when you posted it up here? If not, did you see where I specified the scale in post 1:


... The scale for all objects and textures is thus 1 foot = 20 pixels; 5 feet (1 gridsquare) = 100 pixels = 1 inch when printed out.

Simon33600
06-09-2013, 02:38 PM
Oh... Well, I must have screwed something up, then. The picture is 1417x1417 pixel for 20x20 squares.

Let me readjust the size...



There it is...
55218

Jacktannery
06-09-2013, 03:12 PM
Simon, something odd is going on. Your picture above should be measuring 50 grid squares E-W by 32 grid squares N-S, and 5,000 pixels E-W by 3,200 N-S. That's very big, which is why I recommended we only do the top half and then mirror everything (so we only do 5,000 pixels by 1,600 pixels of map, in two maps 2,500x1,600 size top right and top left). We need to be working at the same scale from the start, and we can't just scale your maps up. For example, compare your chairs to the chairs on the image on post 32: your chairs are much lower resolution, and if we scale them up they will look blurred next to mine.

Simon33600
06-09-2013, 03:36 PM
You are right, my building is actually smaller than yours.

Crap... It will be a fair bit of work to resize everything... Ok, time to get started...

Simon33600
06-10-2013, 06:39 PM
Ok, I redid the floor, the stairs. Replaced the chairs to scale. I still have to redo the doors (not a big work) and the balcony (much more significant amount of work).

I'd love to upload my progress but the site no longer let me upload the picture... not even a highly compressed, half of the building.

I'll look into that later...

Simon33600
06-10-2013, 06:46 PM
Fancy that, jpeg seem to get through
55265

It is still compressed a bit, but it should give you guys an idea.

Simon33600
06-11-2013, 06:36 PM
Ok, as said, I started working on the balcony.

Here is the main one done.

I still need to work on the smaller one, which should be easier. It is smaller and the shape is easier...

55283

anstett
06-11-2013, 08:47 PM
These look nice Simon.

BOB

Jacktannery
06-12-2013, 06:24 AM
Simon, that looks good. Might look even better without my columns! By the way I made the balcony from various things I found in this thread Dundjinni Mapping Software - Forums: Stone Structural Parts (http://www.dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=7242&PN=1&TPN=1)

Simon33600
06-13-2013, 06:06 PM
I have been working on it a little bit.
Part of ,y problem is that the balcony connects at a roughly 45° angle on the right, and don't have the templates for that... I tried playing with the tools I know in GIMP but it looks ugly...

Jacktannery
06-13-2013, 06:08 PM
Simon if the balcony is causing you trouble just delete it - it probably is unnecessary on your upper floor anyway.

Simon33600
06-13-2013, 06:17 PM
I'll see... Maybe I'll get it to work at some point...

Simon33600
06-14-2013, 08:05 PM
Ok, here is the small balcony finally done...

What do you guys think of it?
Should I remove Jack's columns? I kinda like them myself, I picture it as the top wiew on some ornate plaster moldings...

55368

I still need to change the doors (I removed a couple around the small balcony) and rework the shadows...

Meshon
06-22-2013, 07:03 PM
Here's a quick update of the main floor. I think I have all the shadows in the right place for the tiered seating and stairs. Is this map useable to stick other stuff onto? Let me know anything that needs alteration, fixing or adaptation!

cheers,
Meshon

55561

Jacktannery
06-23-2013, 03:59 AM
Good work Meshon. Here are the objects I made for it (.png). I think I uploaded my balcony upthread.

55577 55578 55576

Meshon
06-23-2013, 11:58 PM
A bit more progress!

cheers,
Meshon

55598

Jacktannery
06-24-2013, 02:52 AM
That looks really great Meshon! I personally think that:

- the walls would look better plain white with thin black lining (like on post 33). This would make them work better with the balcony and map colour scheme in my opinion. That's just a matter of personal style though.
- the chairs are overshadowed. I've uploaded a cleaner version - not sure how those shadows came up. I think there was an error where an overlay layer because a solid layer.
- all the walls touching the stage should be removed - they aren't necessary and add nothing. Lots of blank space around the stage is fine.
- I think we need a bit more blue and gold. Removing the brown walls will help brighten up the map a bit, as will lighting the map. We could also hand some blue curtains/draped along the back and side walls and add some gold lamps?
- the walls should cast more shadow than the balcony, because they are higher.

55602

Meshon
06-24-2013, 03:23 PM
The shadow on the chairs was totally my fault. I was zoomed out too far while I was working and had added a drop shadow which I didn't really look at. Oops. Here's a new version with some walls moved around and simplified. I have to admit I'm not great at getting shadows to show height, it's something I regularly struggle with on battle maps. I'll try to implement any ideas about how and where to put them though. Also I'd be happy to share the .psd file of this floor if anyone wants it to work on, but it's just over 120MB so it will need to go through DropBox. Let me know.

cheers,
Meshon

55615

Jacktannery
06-24-2013, 04:25 PM
Excellent Meshon!! I LOVE the walls now, and the chairs are much better. All that's left is some nice doors, drapes, lamps and lighting. Should we add some blue chairs to the balcony level do you think?

- slight error (shadows) on the rug
- two new curtains in the east are the wrong shade of blue
- the main entrance looks is miserly - it should be increased in width to match the wider space framed by the collonade just inside.

Meshon
06-24-2013, 06:08 PM
Okay, fixed the shadows on the rug and I modified the front entryway. To be honest I could use some advice. I think you're using GIMP but just a technical explanation of what you did to Bogie's chairs to get the colour right would be great. Desaturation? Hue shift? I think the same technique would work on the curtains too, though I think I should look around for some more curtain styles. I tried cutting out some of the chairs from the ones you made for the ground floor but wasn't having too much luck, but if you share your secrets ;) I could put some chairs up along the balcony railing.

I will also hunt up (or make) some doors. Any suggestions for lamps? Actually I bet I can find some in Bogie's mapping elements thread...

cheers,
Meshon

55621

Meshon
06-24-2013, 06:13 PM
55622Also, what shall we do with the basement? This is what I've got so far, though I'm not sure about the floor, maybe it should be dirt or stone? And since we're adjusting the layout a little, we might need to add some access between the main basement and the under-stage area, and possibly stairs from backstage of the main level down to the basement as well. Any ideas?

Simon! Thank you so much for taking over the balconies, they are looking great!

cheers,
Meshon

Edit: Doh! Forgot to attach. And I thought I only did that with emails...

anstett
06-24-2013, 07:44 PM
Always impressed by your work everyone.

For the basement I would think that because this is a wooden theatre that it would have a dirt floor basement for the most part. Only if you think there needs to be a small stone pier for the footings to hold up the upper floors.

I am picturing it being rebuilt over the years as various fires, etc cause problems so the investment in stone flooring in the basement. might be too much.

Maybe a board or two thrown out haphazard like as a walk way sort of thing?

BOB

Jacktannery
06-25-2013, 03:50 AM
Curtain colour (for gimp - there are numerous methods this is just the easiest) - duplicate the curtain layer and place it just above curtains and rename it 'curtain hue' ; make sure that any shadowing is removed on this new layer, and anything else you don't want to change colour not included ; select all (alpha to selection) on 'curtain hue' layer and fill selection with your desired final hue ; change layer type to 'hue' ; adjust brightness/contrast/saturation of underlying curtain layer as required. If you want me to do this just post up your curtains as .pngs but make sure to remove all shadowing first.

Entrances much better. I can make you a nice decorative door if you like. It needs to have blue and gold and white and black in it and be very baroque.

Lamps - careful here. Have a look at streetlamps or modern map elements for these, and we will change their colour to gold (which usually also involves changing the colour CURVE to make that metallic glint). Fantasy-type lamps will not look good here I suspect.

Basement plan - I think should be heavily revised to remove all those tiny crappy rooms (which are un-playable with) and make it more interesting overall. Very much a fan of idea of linking up the two basement areas (secret passage!) that has a side route leading into the city sewers and a rat-infested ancient dungeon.

Basement - I disagree with anstett the maps are already brown enough so we should use stone for the basement (greyish-blue) not dirt, for aesthetic reasons. This part can have fantasy-type lamps with goldy-orange flames.

Meshon
07-23-2013, 07:57 PM
Sorry for the disappearance! I'm currently on a family trip involving a lot of places with no internet connection, currently only satellite. I'm still hoping to get a bit more work done on this theatre before August, but it will still be a week or so before I'm back.

cheers,
Meshon

Jacktannery
07-24-2013, 03:14 PM
I also might have time now to do some work on the basement.

Phantos
03-27-2014, 12:32 AM
This is fantastic! I know it isn't finished yet but I have to say I cannot wait to use even the non-finished maps in my campaign.

Jacktannery
03-27-2014, 04:27 AM
Great - yeah we all got a bit sidetracked, but the main core is there and quite good.

anstett
03-27-2014, 09:43 AM
Yes there was some very nice work put in on this.

BOB