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gspRooster
01-26-2014, 01:31 PM
As suggested by Falconius, we could place some of our history and backstory information for the world here and let that guide the further discussions on the genre.

I'll try to keep this first post updated by contributor name and links to their post with the appropriate title. I'll be posting something myself shortly.

gspRooster
01-27-2014, 02:20 AM
Civilizations

The Tesseti - These island people occupy the Mantillian archipelago on the southeastern end of the world's main continent. It is a warm, comfortable place to live with few natural dangers and a population of roughly 2,680,000. In all, these people live in some capacity on at least 50 of the archipelago's 74 known islands. Though most of these islands are small and support only fishing villages or farming communities, there are three islands of moderate size that support what could be considered a large town or a small city, and then the primary island, which supports a small majority of the population. The primary island is the central focal point for all trade in the archipelago, and all goods coming or going long distance through the islands stop at the docks in Thesia to trade or resupply. The islands primary exports are oils, wines, cured fish, ropes, and sailing equipment. Politically, the entire archipelago falls under the control of Prince Antillos Thesietti. Originally a family of merchants, they founded the city of Thesia as a trading port and brought the bickering islands together through the power of coin whenever possible, and used that same power to crush any opposition that could not be made to surrender diplomatically. But, with money comes jealousy, and The Tesseti have not been surrounded by the friendliest of neighbors most of the time. Their disputes have ensured the Tesseti people have become renowned as excellent sailors and capable warriors with the bow and hand ax, both utilitarian tools well adapted to both ranged and close quarters combat at sea.

The Tesseti feelings toward their immediate neighbors.
Dohash - Desert dwelling bandits and raiders to the last. Don't trust them, don't trade with them, just tell them to take their trinkets, put away the knife they want to stab you with, and keep moving. It's a shame they inhabit a land so rich with natural resources. Were it any other people, they'd be a prime trading prospect.
Paraxi - A strong and healthy people with all the makings of a proud kingdom. It's a shame they're ruled by such a brutish line of uneducated warmongers. If someone intelligent were in charge they might actually be able to make something of their otherwise ideal position. For the moment, they are overtaxed, overworked, exhausted from war, and too tired to do anything about the squalor they live in.
Bargenswood Elves - They have an overabundance of spices and forest goods, particularly lumber for ship building, and we can bring them things from across the seas that they're too pre-occupied with the Paraxi to go and get themselves. This is a profitable relationship.

12rounds
01-27-2014, 08:52 AM
Excellent!

I would propose using a fixed and structured template for the descriptions.
Something along the lines of this:

Name: Tesseti
Location: Mantillian Archipelago
Government: Feudal Kingdom
Current ruler: Prince Antillos Thesietti
Imports: ...
Exports: oils, wines,...
Race: human (90%?), elven (8%?), others (2%?)
Capitol city: Thesia
Population: 2,680,000 (20% urban. 80% rural?)
Coinage: ...
Religions: ...
Technological advancements: ocean travelling with sail-ships, looming, metalworking, etc.

This would allow the data to be used as source for automation scripts in the later date.

gspRooster
01-29-2014, 12:03 AM
You've got it!

Civilization: Tesseti
Geographical Location: Mantillian Archipelago
Government Type: Despotism
Government Name: Principality of Mantillia
Current Ruler: Prince Antillos Thessieti
Capitol City: Thesia (Large City)
Additional Large Cities: 0
Additional Small Cities: 4
Economic Basis: Trade
Economic Standing: Wealthy
Major Imports: Iron, Lumber
Major Exports: Oils, Wine, Fish, Rope, Naval Equipment
Profitable Transit Goods: Spices, Coal, Sugar
Population: 2,680,000
Demographics: 87% Tesseti Human, 6% Tesseti Elven, 4% Tesseti Mixed Race, 2% Skilled Foreign Labor & Sailers, 1% Paraxi Refugees
Coinage: Mantillian Promise (A Promise is 1/200th of a Mantillian Deal. A Mantillian Deal is the amount of gold that will balance against a standard Mantillian Urn filled to the cusp with seawater.)
Religions: Pantheon of Three Eternals (Worships gods of light, the sea, and the dark.)
Technological Advancements: Ocean Worthy Ship Building, Navigation, Astronomy, Carpentry, Textiles, Metalworking (all naval equipment related)
Neighboring Civilizations & Relations: Dohash (Hostile), Paraxi (Neutral, Trading), Bargenswood Elves (Friendly, Trading)

gspRooster
01-30-2014, 03:03 AM
Civilization: Dohash
Geographical Location: The Dry Sea (Aram Mur Desert)
Government Type: Tribal Confederation
Government Name: Dohash Tribes
Current Ruler: All-Chief Mulum Yalg
Capital City: Sahisu
Additional Large Cities: 0
Additional Small Cities: 1
Economic Basis: Mineral Resources
Economic Standing: Poor
Major Imports: Food, Cloth, Wine
Major Exports: Iron, Salt, Incense
Profitable Transit Goods: None
Population: 740,000
Demographics: 94% Dohash Humans, 6% Slave Population (Mixed Racial & Ethnic Composition)
Coinage: Live Animals - Goats, Camels
Religions: Duality of Sun God & Death God
Technological Advancements: Astronomy, Land Navigation, Metalworking (Mining and Blacksmithing), Desert Architecture
Neighboring Civilizations & Relations: Tesseti (Hostile), Paraxi (Neutral, Trading), (What lies to the west?)

The Dohash live in the arid and unforgiving desert known as The Dry Sea, or Aram Mur in the Dohash tongue. The vast majority of the population lives in mobile, nomadic tent villages with low populations that tend to move along the coasts and the internal mountain range where food and water are available. The city of Sahisu stands in stark contrast to most Dohash society, and literally translates to "True Water". It is built a few miles inland from the coast within and around a canyon that straddles an underground river. Dohash politics are deeply entrenched in the power and wealth of the tribes. In times of peace, an All-Chief is chosen for life from among the chiefs of the most influential tribes. Defying the All-Chief is an act of war. Defeating the All-Chief and the ruling tribe bestows the winner carte blanche to act as the new All-Chief. Losing has seen entire tribes be eradicated and forgotten from the memory of the Dohash tribes. One other small city skirts the edge of the northern mountains and serves as a heavily populated mining center more than a true "city". The Dohash tribes make use of slave population and labor to extract ore from the mountains for trade, and the city amounts to little more than the Dohash tribes' collective slaves and the warriors that drive their labor. The Dohash are a warlike people prone to inter-tribal conflict who have long coveted the more hospitable lands to the east and north, but lack the power or the numbers to defeat their neighbors in outright warfare. And their neighbors have little interest in conquering the Dohash wasteland. For now, the status quo remains.

Azelor
01-30-2014, 11:53 AM
Is it just about the template ? or are these civs for the project ?

gspRooster
01-30-2014, 11:23 PM
Civs for the project.

Ghostman
01-31-2014, 01:17 PM
I just can't see this being a good idea when we don't even have a basic world map yet. My gut feeling is that it'll prove to be a lot of trouble trying to make all of this information match the world's geography and climate.

gspRooster
01-31-2014, 04:09 PM
Only if people decide they'd rather rely on a pre-generated fractal world than actually create their own. Which, in my mind, eliminates the human element of creativity and just isn't as fun as actually being physically involved with the design. But even if that were to become the case, I fail to see the harm in developing a library of potential candidates for regional civilizations.

When you assemble a jury you don't pick 10 people and then that's what you're stuck with, you draw on a substantially larger pool and widdle down the ones that don't fit your case until you have something you think you can make work in your favor.

Jalyha
01-31-2014, 04:53 PM
I don't think anyone is talking about pre-generated fractal world... more that... there *is* no world yet. Everyone has to agree on the world (or at least a majority.) It's not gotten to that stage yet, so no one knows what *kind* of civilizations the world can support.

So maybe none of these races will fit once the world is decided.

It's not a matter of picking too few or too many jurors yet... You don't pick a jury *pool* at all until you at least have a case :P

gspRooster
01-31-2014, 07:09 PM
Yeah, and we have a case. We're trying to develop a fictional world. You can't expect that to be accomplished in any reasonable way by fiddling over crazy high level stuff like whether or not the world has magic for weeks at a time. Throw the ideas out there, let people mull them over, then toss in some details. The details will mold the high level stuff around them and it'll work out.

World building from the outside in may work for some people, but frankly it doesn't make any sense to me. Build it the way you want your players to see it, from the inside out. Your players are going to be individual characters, and if you don't have a personalized sense of the world your characters are living in then it doesn't matter how mechanically accurate rivers or climates are, or whether it makes sense from an astronomical perspective if the planet has one moon or five. Your players really don't give a damn. They just want something fun, relate-able and interesting. And you're not getting anywhere near that if you don't even have a remote sense of what the people who actually live in this world are like.

Jalyha
01-31-2014, 07:23 PM
I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you - it makes sense to me either way - but this is a cooperative project - not one person's, and everyone has to agree on things.

I think they are building from the outside in, because that's the way it worked before - with the last CWBP. :) Maybe everyone will like your way better, and people will choose to switch to figuring out the civilizations first. But as this is a mapping project, the land itself is pretty important - maybe the most important, so I just don't know how many people will agree. :)

gspRooster
02-01-2014, 03:26 AM
Here's where we have a fundamental disconnect in our understanding of this project.

You're saying we need to know what the land looks like. I'm offering two suggestions for two segments right here. I need to understand what part of that you're having a hard time understanding in order to understand where you're coming from. You want to fill in the entire geography first, and then put the people in it, as opposed to filling in partial pieces of the geography a little at a time, and already having an idea of what the people look like?

Don't you think that's a nonsensical disagreement for something that is accomplishing the exact same goal? I never said these civs were set in stone or that we had to use them. I'm offering suggestions for what parts of the world could look like, and what the people that inhabit the area might be like.

And that seems to be resulting in a tizzy that I don't understand. If the goal was to drive in a circle, and half the car said let's go left, the other half said let's go right, does it really matter how you get there? No, because you're driving in a circle. The assertion that this thread is a bad idea is non-productive. Nobody is forcing these civs to be used. But nobody else is coming up with any ideas, so I put a few out there.

12rounds
02-01-2014, 04:25 AM
I think they are building from the outside in, because that's the way it worked before - with the last CWBP. :)

Except it didn't really work that well.

Ghostman
02-01-2014, 06:42 AM
You're saying we need to know what the land looks like. I'm offering two suggestions for two segments right here. I need to understand what part of that you're having a hard time understanding in order to understand where you're coming from. You want to fill in the entire geography first, and then put the people in it, as opposed to filling in partial pieces of the geography a little at a time, and already having an idea of what the people look like?
Yes. Personally, I can't fathom how I should reasonably come up with something like an entire civilization when I don't have any grasp on the physical world wherein this civilization is to be placed - because, this being a cooperative project, none of us gets to dictate in advance what kind of landscape we'll end up with.

Civilizations do not arise in a vacuum, they are shaped profoundly by the environment they live in. If I were to try and create such a setting element in a vacuum, it could very well turn out to be incompatible with the eventual collectively determined geography.



Don't you think that's a nonsensical disagreement for something that is accomplishing the exact same goal? I never said these civs were set in stone or that we had to use them. I'm offering suggestions for what parts of the world could look like, and what the people that inhabit the area might be like.

And that seems to be resulting in a tizzy that I don't understand. If the goal was to drive in a circle, and half the car said let's go left, the other half said let's go right, does it really matter how you get there? No, because you're driving in a circle. The assertion that this thread is a bad idea is non-productive. Nobody is forcing these civs to be used. But nobody else is coming up with any ideas, so I put a few out there.
It seems like a good amount of potentially wasted effort if the things in this thread are to be so readily discarded. Not that I have anything against anyone else taking their time to write this stuff, but I myself am definitely going to wait until we're settled on a big picture of the world (including decisions on technology, magic and such) before I'll even start thinking about it's inhabitants.

12rounds
02-01-2014, 07:01 AM
...but I myself am definitely going to wait until we're settled on a big picture of the world (including decisions on technology, magic and such) before I'll even start thinking about it's inhabitants.

Herein lies a big problem.

I wan't to get involved with the premise that I can use the end result setting for gaming purposes. Whereas someone else might consider the CWBP primarily as a mapping exercise and consider the world "finished" when there's enough maps to pave a way to the local grocery store. If the people more interested in the gaming aspect of the end result need to wait until enough of the groundwork (ie. mapping) is finished, agreed upon and finalized, there will be no one left to create the inhabitants, political systems, micro-climates, history, cultures and fauna&flora because I don't think the same people that create maps are necessarily the same people that want/could/should create other aspects of the project.

The templates proposed are easily adapted to accommodate whatever the mapping project's output is going to be.

gspRooster
02-01-2014, 07:07 AM
Yeah, well you can sit around and wait for that to happen. I think I'll be better off withdrawing my support from this project.

This is an extremely poorly thought our project. There is no oversight, no clearly defined method of making suggestions, nobody has been delegated to guide anything, nobody even knows in any practical manner how you plan on coming up with a world for this project, and when I offer two suggestions for a portion of the world they get shot down because... what? Suggestions aren't allowed until you know what the map looks like? I just made two suggestions that you could have deliberated on and made some progress with if you'd had any sense towards this project ever getting anywhere.

I don't know how you expect this attempt to magically reach consensus on something that neither has a clearly defined process for, nor explained in any rational manner how it proposes to reach a consensus on anything when the basis for consensus has so far been "he who screams the loudest amongst the anarchy must clearly be only voice that matters".

No thanks. I wish the project all the luck in the world, but honestly it's a mess. Good luck. I'd rather go to work on something else on my own.

Jalyha
02-01-2014, 10:05 AM
There's no need to get testy.

No one said that it was a bad idea or that you couldn't do it. No one said take it down, or stop.

But not everyone IS going to like every idea. If it's part of a cooperative project, it's ALL going to be open to discussion - including *when* to do certain things. As with anything else in life there are pros and cons and what are pros to some people will be cons to other people and vice versa. People will express dissent at things they don't like and/or question things they don't understand.

That's part of a COMMUNITY project. You're right, there's no real "leadership" because it isn't meant to be a profitable (or even solely a *gaming* exercise) it's meant to be a group project and that's what it is. No single person gets to decide.

Your suggestions got shot down (by some people) because those people don't think it's a good idea. That's part of life. Everyone isn't going to like your ideas, and they don't have to just go along without saying so.

Your suggestions got shows of support (by some people) because those people think it IS a good idea. That's part of life too.

Other people (myself included) try asking questions and making commentary because they are undecided on how things should go, and want to understand.

All three groups of people have a right to voice their opinions at *Every* stage of the process, in every single CWBP thread.

If you can't handle that, and you don't want to be part of the project because of it, then no one can stop you from walking away. That's *your* choice.

But there is no need to be rude or insulting about it.

And now that I've said my piece, I shall wish you a good day, sir.

Falconius
02-01-2014, 11:52 AM
I'm not sure what stirred up this drama. I was only gone for a day, I feel like I missed out.;)

I don't see a problem with having specific cultures ready to hit the ground running, things can be edited when it becomes necessary. People also are going to have vastly different approaches to the CWBP 2.

My personal thought was that once we had the world map with the plots people would take their plots and develop the things in those plots as they saw fit, not only maps but the presences therein the cultures etc. Whatever parts they felt like. This way it could be built according to the personal preference of the author of that plot. Inside out, or outside in.

For myself I thought this thread would be dealing with far more generalized aspects. Either way though I think it could work. To me though I also feel the need to wait for the main map in order to get a handle on my understanding of the world and to help organize what is going on. Being that there is now a sense of urgency about this perhaps we should make a call for entries and set up with a vote.

Azelor
02-01-2014, 01:35 PM
You brought a bunch of good ideas in you last message GspRooster. You are right about the fact that it's a poorly organized project. I might be (or I have been) the closest thing to a leader but on the other hand, I don't really know what I'm doing... or what needs to be done. I have my own DnD campaign world but I've never done one collectively. Sure, it works better alone but it's time consuming and it probably won't be as original as the group project. I admit that at first, I taught that the first step was to get a map because that's how the last project proceeded. The top-down approach is working well for mappers but not so well for the others. (Top down) So far, I have to admit that this as gotten us nowhere.

On the other thread, I never said that it was a bad idea to post descriptions; I just said it was better to stay vague to avoid conflicts with other part of the project. I do not like the fact that some idea has to be cancelled or postponed since it hinder creativity. In fact, I wanted (and still think about it but haven't had the time to do it properly yet) to submit some templates and maybe submitting an idea. Every idea you be open for discussion. I think it's a good idea to know what kind of content people like. By the time we start mapping, we could already have souls to add to the map.


As for how to proceed: how about the least bad form of government: democracy? I consider that not every idea should have his poll. Your civs for example, normally we should not have to vote about them, they would be accepted as long as they are well thought and if they fit in the campaign but still open for suggestion for improvements/modification. Unless someone as a good reason to disagree with your idea, there are no valid points to discard the content. Yet, sometimes a voting is required. Then what?

Do we go with a:

50%+1: a clear majority,

Problem: we need to find a way to achieve 50% and that is not always easy when there are many choices but that’s how United States democracy works... (Where it doesn’t work even with 2 choices) Also, how to avoid stalemate: 50/50? Someone could have a special vote, meaning he would have 2 votes instead of one in case of a tie vote.

Two turn election: we only keep the 2 leading choices for the second turn in order to achieve a majority of votes. That way, we are sure that the winner has clear support. The problem is that it would be more complicated but that’s how France democracy works... (Where people seems to elect president they don’t even like)

Plurality: (or first past the post) the choice that get the most votes win, even if it’s just 2 votes.

Problem: lack of votes gives a poor legitimacy to the choice but that’s how Canadian democracy works… (Where people get elected with 30% of the votes of the 60% of people that voted)
How to avoid stalemate here?


That being said: polls not always, threads yes. I mean, every idea should have his thread. But there is a problem: huge number of threads = confusion.

Solution1: the project gets his own subsection on the forum. The possibility to have sections inside the sub form would be even better but I doubt it will. A simpler solution would be to have an index or a table of content in a sticky thread.

Solution 2: CWBP2 Wiki (http://cwbp2.wikia.com/wiki/CWBP2_Wiki)
I am reluctant to use it because it brings us farther from the community. There are also security concerns…


Another thing that I learn: if you want something done, it’s better not to wait on others because it might never get done. Especially if you keep the idea to yourself. So if you think that something should be done, like opening a new thread, go for it! This is all our project and its success or failure depends on everyone contribution.


EDIT: TAG added

Falconius
02-01-2014, 02:23 PM
I think a basic understand of the project obviously leads to the idea that we are working a democracy here. It's a group project, not just a group working on a project. Given the way our mapping poll worked out. I'd think a first past the post system should be our default but that we can determine how the polls work on an individual basis, especially since we have the option of multiple choice polls here. When polls are required at any rate. I'd imagine that be after the end of a development thread such as the thread on "Genre and era", and even then it's pretty clear how its going to turn out so is useful for nailing down certain details.


Another thing that I learn: if you want something done, itís better not to wait on others because it might never get done. Especially if you keep the idea to yourself. So if you think that something should be done, like opening a new thread, go for it! This is all our project and its success or failure depends on everyone contribution. This quote is the golden truth. You want something done, do it. (Gonna put this in the overview post.)

Azelor
02-01-2014, 02:29 PM
Yes but it should be done in consideration of the opinions of others if applicable.

Do you think the genre and era thread is ready for a poll. I mean we discussed other ideas too, but these could be discussed in their own shiny new threads.

Edit: another thing I have forgotten to say is that the project is getting bigger in terms of threads and ideas so it needs more organization. That organization wasn't required when there was just one thread about it. We just need to make an ''upgrade''.