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Azelor
02-02-2014, 03:49 PM
I'm moving the discussion here because I feel it was eclipsed by the other subjects
So far, it seems many people associate magic with the middle ages but it doesn't have to be that way. Other genre like steampunk and post apocalyptic are generic genre that can fit different era.

The question is: what is the general level of technology in the world and what are the different level of technological advancement if any ? (I expect that some places will be more advanced that other.)
Is there any differences with our world at the same era regarding the technology (ex: end of middle ages with no gunpowder, with flying boats, with no compass) ?


Level of technology:

nomad/hunter gatherer
prehistoric (with agriculture and animal husbandry but without writing)
antique/classical (after the discovery of writing), …
middle age
...


or these for reference:

Tech Level Comparison Chart - Traveller (http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Tech_Level_Comparison_Chart)
Technology level - Traveller (http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Technology_level)
Tech Level - GURPS Wiki (http://gurps.wikia.com/wiki/Tech_Level)

It would be a good idea to make you suggestions by putting the century and the region (in the real world) matching the level of technology.

Falconius
02-03-2014, 10:52 AM
I'd suggest expressing it as what level is the most technology advanced culture at, with perhaps very minor exceptions for extremely small enclaves who may be higher.

Anyways,
Guns/Canons/Gunpowder: No to all
Calvary: Horse, and on rare occasions other beasts
Armour: All the way up to 16th century plate (because that stuff is boss)
Hand weapons: All stuff until 15th 16th century
Missile weapons: Bows, x-bows perhaps more advanced kinetic weapons or magically assisted weapon

Navigation and travel:
Compasses: No due to Ghostman node interference
Dominant propulsion: Sail
Alternate propulsion: Yes
Steam: No, to very minor experimental use in small enclaves.
"Boat" types: Up to 14th century sail technology
Airships/airtravel: No airships, to small limited magical conveyances.
Flying creatures for travel/transport: Yes, anything.
Overland transport: Wagons, horses, etc. Possibly landships for special uses

Writing and learning
Printing press: No
Scholarship level: 15th century?
Learning institutions (eg. universities): Yes.

Um thats all I can think of right now really.

Ghostman
02-03-2014, 12:05 PM
Perhaps in addition to "level" of technology we should discuss how closely it should mimic the real world. What I mean is that technology is not just about function (what it can achieve and how easily) but also about form (how it does so).

For example, a compass that points to the magnetic south (or north) can be functionally the same as a miniature clockwork figurine that whistles when oriented to face the point in horizon where the sun last rose. Both of them are just means for figuring out directions. The former is a mundane invention familiar to us from the real world, whereas the latter is an exotic piece of weird technology that only exists in the realm of fiction. Similarly, a horse-drawn carriage and a cabin borne on the back of a six-legged reptilian beast are functionally equal as long as they allow passengers to be transported at equal speeds for equal cost & effort and equally reliably.

Falconius
02-03-2014, 01:52 PM
I think we should first focus on functionality and leave the details to be developed in peoples modules.

Azelor
02-04-2014, 10:53 PM
Guns/Canons/Gunpowder: No to all
I would like to have some. Maybe it could be limited to the most advanced and even it that case, it's considered some sort of secret weapon. Greek fire...
Let see, I don't think it's that overpowered compared to magic.

Calvary: Horse, and on rare occasions other beasts

Armour: All the way up to 16th century plate (because that stuff is boss)
Totally true, even if it more or less match the rest

Hand weapons: All stuff until 15th 16th century
Bastard sword !

Missile weapons: Bows, x-bows perhaps more advanced kinetic weapons or magically assisted weapon
repetition crossbow
and stuff like that Warlore - Medieval II Total War Unit: Mercenary Monster Ribault (http://m2tw.warlore.org/units/Mercenary_Monster_Ribault)

Navigation and travel:
Compasses: No due to Ghostman node interference
compasses work, except it's different

"Boat" types: Up to 14th century sail technology
caravels would be great too.

Airships/airtravel: No airships, to small limited magical conveyances.
I like the idea of some flying ship but they should not be too common

Flying creatures for travel/transport: Yes, anything.
they should not be too common

Cunning Cartographer
02-05-2014, 07:49 AM
No option for multiple technologies depending on continent/culture/race?

Falconius
02-05-2014, 09:27 AM
This would indicate more the limits that technology has reached so far (except in rare cases where it might be greater), it is not determinative of the overall technology or the specific technology anyone has. In other words if we ended up choosing no guns or canons then you couldn't reasonably go out and create a race or culture that uses them. You could create a race that uses bows, or throwing spears or whatever, or still be so backwards they are still busy throwing rocks at each other. If however a "gunne" was central to a story or module you are developing you could have an exception with the understanding that the exception is limited and won't actually alter the technological limits of the world.

Cunning Cartographer
02-05-2014, 11:55 AM
Gotcha. I'd go with a Discworld low-end steampunky type technology

Azelor
02-05-2014, 12:01 PM
No option for multiple technologies depending on continent/culture/race?

It is entirely possible and even logical that some places will be more advanced than others. In the three links I posted at the end of the first post, you can see an example of technology by era. The Gurps progression seems better because it concentrate more on the first eras. So each country could have a tech level associated to it's description.

Azelor
02-06-2014, 05:20 PM
Here's a suggestion for era advancement, It's mix from Gurp, D20 modern, Ravenloft and Civilization progression.
Ideas: form of government available for each era, weaponry and siege engine progression

WIP, STILL VERY MESSY

0-Primitive: first priority is survival
Inventions: firemaking
travel: on foot
Weaponry: wooden weapon, raw stone

1- Stone age (-10 000 to -5000) : nomadic tribes, hunter/gatherer, live in cave or small tents, small villages made of stone possible,
Technology: barter, basic mathematic, oral tradition (no writing), haven’t mastered magic yet, shamanic cult
Travel: ski, simple boats...
Weaponry: leather armor,stone/obsidian tools, shortbow, spear, club, hide/leather/wooden shield,

2-Bronze age (-5000 to -2500) : beginning of civilization, states, large cities arise, ,
Inventions (technology) : agriculture, animal husbandry, metal working, weaving, writing, scrolls, calendar, mathematic, architecture, pottery(conserve food), levers, wheels, pulley,organized religion, magic mastery, stone construction , masonry
travel: horse back, chariot, sail boat, galley
Weaponry: bronze weapon and armor, studded and padded armor

3-Iron age (-2500 to 0): new government form..., first empires
Technology: Iron working, advanced military tactic, code of law (separate the state from religion), shipbuilding, coinage, trading, glassmaking, medicine, measurement of time( sundial, hourglass), hydraulic engineering, roads, canals, windmills, water mills, saddle,
travel: saddled horse, bigger ship (trireme)
Weaponry: breastplate, tower shield, siege engine,

4- Classical ( 1 to 500) : high quality roads,
Society organization:
Technology: philosophy, theology, algebra, geometry, astronomy, alchemy, paper (replace scrolls), books, libraries, stirrup,
Travel:
Weaponry: first true cavalry,

5- Dark age (500 to 800) (this on is only in europe) might mix it the the others): still some progress: monastic orders,
Technology: astrolabe, crop rotation, mechanical mills,
Travel: advanced ship (ocean travel),
Weaponry: crossbow (China had repeating crossbows before Jesus was born),banded mail, scale mail, splint mail,

6-Early Middle age (800 to 1200) (still mostly about Europe) : castle, cathedral, guild, insurance, healers, collegue of bards,
Technology: gothic architecture, compass, water clock, stern rudder, Universities
Travel: cog
Weaponry: chain mail, lance ,

7- Middle age (1200 to 1400) : ,medical school, , standing army (Europe)
Technology: Gothic flamboyant, block printing (on textile or paper, existed in china’s antiquity), glassblowing, optic, mechanical clock (huge), spinning wheel (textile),
Travel: on foot is still very popular, carrack
Weaponry: longbow, mounted knight, half plate armor, heavy barding,

8- Chivalric (1400 – 1550) : government records, disease control, beginning of postal service (o my !)
Technology: smaller mechanic, banking,
Travel: caravels, sea navigation made common
Weaponry: basic gunpowder weapons (bombard), early musket, bastard sword, full plate, Knight zenith,

9- Age of sails/renaissance: (1550 to 1750) more comfortable castles, opera, newspapers,
Technology: printing press, sophisticated clock and mechanical devices, microscope, telescope, bigger ship (more reliable), scientific method, Newton, Chemistry, biology, electromagnetism,
Travel: galleon
Weaponry: firearms, cannon, fencing, no more heavy armor/weapon,

10- Industrial revolution (1750 to 1880… ): factories, urbanization, corporations,
Technology:steam engine,assembly line, Military science (Clausewitz not Sun Ci) Interchangeable parts telegrapher,vaccine
Travel:train , steam boats, steel ship,
Weaponry: rifling,machine gun,

11- Mechanized age: (1880-1940) aviation, radio, phone, submarine, steel battleship, mass media, electricity, combucstion engine, mass production, plastic, refregiration, globalisation

12-nuclear age (1940-1980) . Television, fission, computer, satellite, microwave, automobile, highways, rocket/missile, transnational organizations, guided weaponry, atomic bomb,

13-Digital age (1980- 20??) : personal computer, internet, electronic devices, telecommunication…

14- the future: it's tomorrow so we don't know what's in it yet. Where science become magic !

Falconius
02-06-2014, 05:45 PM
I'm not sure where you are going with that Azelor. What is the goal there?

Azelor
02-06-2014, 05:56 PM
Different places have different level of tech, so here they are.

Falconius
02-06-2014, 07:12 PM
I guess. Does it need to be elaborated on though? If we know that the guys with the most advanced tech are using steel swords, isn't it obvious that other less advanced societies may still be using bronze or, stone?

Azelor
02-07-2014, 04:03 PM
I don't know maybe it's too elaborated but I think it could be useful.

Scoopz
02-16-2014, 09:32 PM
So what's the common consensus on the GENERAL technology level?

Falconius
02-16-2014, 11:13 PM
I was hoping to get more than simply my template and Azelors amendments before we came to a consensus on anything.... Or at least some people who agreed with them...

Azelor
02-16-2014, 11:52 PM
To make a summary of the suggestions so far, I would say it's a mix of technology between the end of the late middle ages and the renaissance.

Gunpodwer is really rare and inefficient, no musket. But fireworks are ok.
Transport: the caravel is probably the most advanced ship

other than that, I don't know what else need to be clarified.

Falconius
02-17-2014, 12:04 AM
Just go with what we got then? Alright. Makes me kind of sad though.

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 12:15 AM
Well, if we're proposing a late medieval technology level, we could definitely take a few liberties. Especially for gunpowder or engineering stuff.

Azelor
02-17-2014, 12:25 AM
What da ya wanna meen ?

I think that things like the Ottoman monster bombard or the Culverin also refered as hand canon for a more archaic versions (it's even more primitive than the arquebus that is the ancestor of the musket) could exist but only for a country that is considered technologically advanced.

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 12:41 AM
Yea, but we can bend the rules some. Arquebus-es became pretty readily available during the renaissance, so we could say a few of the larger empire have managed to start incorporating them. It might also be fair to say that some places or people might have begun to construct engineering marvels like basic hydraulics, or cool pulley & gear assemblies. etc.

Falconius
02-17-2014, 12:47 AM
Eww, gunpowder.

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 01:09 AM
My friend said guns kill imagination. D:

Idk that that's true, but I tend to avoid them usually. :) Not a big deal, but just saying :D

Azelor
02-17-2014, 11:18 AM
Yea, but we can bend the rules some. Arquebus-es became pretty readily available during the renaissance, so we could say a few of the larger empire have managed to start incorporating them. It might also be fair to say that some places or people might have begun to construct engineering marvels like basic hydraulics, or cool pulley & gear assemblies. etc.

Actually you might be surprised. It depend on how sophisticated your devices are but they probably existed in that time.

And Idk if guns kill imagination but they kill people and a lot. That's more of a problem.
But firearms where only limited to elite infantry at that time. It take some time before you get a whole army to use mostly firearms. Even then they would only have 1 shot before recharging and they would end the fight in melee.

Falconius
02-17-2014, 01:02 PM
Guns change everything, and they do it very rapidly, historically speaking. I'd prefer not to set our world in a time of such vast change, I'd prefer to have something we build and keep around for a very long while, something that is more reasonable to hold stagnant.

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 01:17 PM
@ Falconius - yeah, that sounds like what I meant, if I was able to put it in words :)

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 02:07 PM
Guns change everything, and they do it very rapidly, historically speaking. I'd prefer not to set our world in a time of such vast change, I'd prefer to have something we build and keep around for a very long while, something that is more reasonable to hold stagnant.

Gosh, you are very determined to keep this world powerless and oppressed, aren't you?

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 02:16 PM
....................................... I don't think it's that so much as people want to start much earlier in the history of the world. I think since the chosen genre was mid? high? fantasy, the focus should be more on magic than technology, and that's rather hard if I can just blast your wizards with a spray of bullets from 1000 feet away.

Also, lack of *guns* doesn't equal oppression, and (especially in a world with magic) guns do not equal power, either.

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 02:20 PM
Man, i'm not saying it does! But god, it's mid fantasy! There should be some some fantastical elements goddammit! and if the magic is gonna be 'subtle' than the weaponry better be more than that!

EDIT: you see, something's got to be fantasy about this. It isn't low fantasy or low magic, and what I've seen makes me think it.

Falconius
02-17-2014, 02:21 PM
No. If high magic was chosen I would be happy with that too, but it was mid magic. Which I'm happy with and personally preferred. With guns, upon which we haven't made a decision yet, I want the world to be either firmly on one side or the other. No guns or guns galore. However guns pretty surely take the setting out of the realm of fantasy, they change the world into something that is more familiar to me, and less interesting therefore. And guns I think will lead to less interesting development for our world. I mean we could just do Earth with magic too, but that isn't as fun for me. I'm fine with both guns and high magic, I'm working on a world of my own where both are included to some degree, but I wouldn't characterize it as strictly fantasy either.

Indeed I think we have a lot of wonderful ideas for this world already, and we have a heavy focus on magic for the world, I don't particularly want to muddy it all up with guns too. In a sense I'd like to keep it more pure. That said I'd be happy to consider any arguments for guns, as right now my arguments are opposed, and I haven't seen anything to convince my to be otherwise.

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 02:25 PM
Ok, well i'm going to stay out of both magic and technology from now on. I seem to have a much different conception of these low/mid/high definitions than most people.

Falconius
02-17-2014, 02:27 PM
I'd also love it if some more people wanted to contribute there own era/tech templates too. That makes it very clear about what they want. So far we are only really discussing one point on mine. If you have a different vision please share it.

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 02:28 PM
How would guns add to "fantasy" in any way? Guns are not a "fantastical element". They're guns. O.o

Falconius
02-17-2014, 02:30 PM
Ok, well i'm going to stay out of both magic and technology from now on. I seem to have a much different conception of these low/mid/high definitions than most people.
Please stay. Fight for what you want. I represent only one opinion, my own.

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 02:32 PM
Guns =/= less fantasy.

That would be like arguing that because we had swords this would be way too close to real life.

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 02:38 PM
No, but they don't equal more fantasy either. YOUR argument for guns was:


But god, it's mid fantasy! There should be some some fantastical elements goddammit! and if the magic is gonna be 'subtle' than the weaponry better be more than that!

EDIT: you see, something's got to be fantasy about this.


Which, if we take out the unnecessary epitaths, is (at least from what I gathered)

"it's mid fantasy! There should be some some fantastical elements! If not magic, then guns!

EDIT: you see, something's got to be fantasy about this."

My retort was that guns are not fantastical elements and one subject has nothing to do with the other.

In other words, guns have nothing to do with fantasy.

So I don't see your point at all.



EDIT: And yes, guns do detract from the fantasy element, in a way swords do not, because more people *associate* swords with fantasy.

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 02:56 PM
Ok, i'll just shut meh trap then!

If you guys don't like this direction then that's fine, and i'll concede.

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 02:59 PM
No one wants you to "shut your trap" (at least I don't)

But I, personally, would like to hear (calmly/logically) *why* and *how* you feel guns would add to the fantasy, or what your other reasons for wanting their inclusion is.

You've just as much right to express your ideas/opinions as anyone else, but without some sort of reasoning, it probably won't sway anyone. ;)

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 03:12 PM
Well, I thought that because there seemed to be some general discontent with current technology levels, that arquebuses might be a fun addition, I love musket battles and etc. (I played Napoleon and Shogun 2 Total War to death) and they do add a lot of turbulence to worlds, which is what I like when it comes to fantasy. Really my whole post wasn't even about "guns", I just said we could bend the rules some and add weapons or elements that didn't exactly fit in to the late medieval era to make the world more interesting.

EDIT: it isn't so much as adding to the fantasy as adding to the diversity of the world. It's a relatively small thing actually, most-and I mean a lot- of people wouldn't even know what a gun is.

Azelor
02-17-2014, 03:37 PM
Plus, it's important to make the distinction between guns (small arms) and cannons. Guns are almost unread of but cannon existed in the late middle ages. If someone want to know how effective firearms (especially) where at that time, he should read the story of the siege of Constantinople. That would help to get an idea.

Seen from that angle they are almost risible.

If I recall, the main problem was a massive loss of pressure. Basically, the first guns where probably as powerful as a sling. That's why they use massive cannons. The weight of the ball inflict more damage than it's kinetic energy.

vorropohaiah
02-17-2014, 03:37 PM
a gun does to magic what the crossbows done to archers in the real-world - it give a lot of power to someone who hasn't spent a lifetime training for it, and i think that's a very interesting thing to put into a fantasy world. Perhaps just one region or area, or maybe make it a very volatile emerging technology.

i know i have nothing to do with this thread though as your'e 'spamming' the first page i couldnt help but notice the thread :P

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 03:59 PM
Okay, I like the idea of bending rules, and, as the first post said,
many people associate magic with the middle ages but it doesn't have to be that way

Right now, everything except the "mid-magic" (was it that or high magic?) is still just in discussion phase.

What we need to do is figure out the *general* level of technology... the era... and any major exceptions to that, so that *everyone* can work on their own things, that still *fit* in the same world.


I think you'll find a lot of resistance to modern, realistic additions on a global scale.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't keep any pocket societies from advancing faster than others.

Even if we decide, collectively, that no, the world doesn't have guns/gunpowder, that won't keep the people in your land/game/story from discovering a mystical black powder, almost more dangerous than it is useful, and turning to a few elite soldiers (or peasant fodder) to try utilizing it as a weapon.

Of course that would have to make sense, in some way with whatever level of technology people in the world *already have* .... and that "already have" is, I think, what's being discussed.


Now, all that aside, I don't think guns/musket battles/etc are *necessary* to add the level of turbulence you want. And I'm not violently opposed to the world having guns/gunpowder (though others might be). I simply think we can find a more creative *unique* way to add that turbulence.


What *I* personally enjoy, is writing a battle scene where I (I mean my generals) have to use my (their) wits... using the lay of the land, placing my archers, calvary, etc, in just the right locations, beating away at them, and then pulling a wizard out of my back pocket to strike the forest behind their calvary with lightening, setting it on fire, scaring their horses, sowing disorder in the ranks.

Bunch of guys in a trench with guns kind of does detract from that.

But I'm one person and one opinion, and there's lots of people involved in a community project.

If everyone thinks someone should have invented guns/other modern/futuristic weaponry, I could live with it.

I would like to know how it benefits the world (or rather, our collective use of the world) before anything is decided one way or the other, though.

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 04:00 PM
a gun does to magic what the crossbows done to archers in the real-world - it give a lot of power to someone who hasn't spent a lifetime training for it, and i think that's a very interesting thing to put into a fantasy world. Perhaps just one region or area, or maybe make it a very volatile emerging technology.

i know i have nothing to do with this thread though as your'e 'spamming' the first page i couldnt help but notice the thread :P


That's why you should jump in to the project .. you're trapped now MUHAHAHA... ha...ha?

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 04:29 PM
Okay, I like the idea of bending rules, and, as the first post said,
...

Bunch of guys in a trench with guns kind of does detract from that.

...

If everyone thinks someone should have invented guns/other modern/futuristic weaponry, I could live with it.


Not to beat a dead horse, but i'm not sure we're on the same page. This:

61497

is an arquebus, no trenches, nothing particularly modern about it. It's got less stopping power than a crossbow. (at range, close it up it's a beast,)

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 05:18 PM
Yes, but what I'm worried about is all the different technologies that makes standard in the world... and how fast they evolve/take over.


In the comparitive age of technology vs the age of the world, that is relatively modern. Old west is modern. Discovery of the Americas is modern. Pretty much anything 13th century + is modern to me, and there were some modern inventions even before then.

Now I'm not saying that modern is bad, but it's *more advanced* than what I pictured.

I'm worried about things like... now our people have gunpowder, steel at the very least, maybe more, they know what guns *can* do, they can create small explosions.

It does not take long for those things to develop past a point where you can control it.

My personal opinion is that the earlier we *start* our world (technology wise) the longer we can USE it without the tech taking over.

And speaking of crossbows, I'm very much on the edge just outside of opposing them :P

But, as I said, personal opinions. I'd like to see other people's views on the matter too :)

Ghostman
02-17-2014, 06:34 PM
I guess I'll chime in then, even if it won't be much of a contribution to the discussion. Hypothetically, were I in a position to dictate things... this world's level of technology would be based on a mix of influences from the Inca empire and New Kingdom Egypt. :P That said, I'm content with the late-ish medieval setup we seem to currently be aiming at. I'd rather not deal with the consequences of firearms, but I'm not die hard opposed to early cannon or the like as very novel inventions.

P.S. If you want to insert turbulence into the world, make most of the states small and add some Viking-like dudes would be my recipe.

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 07:57 PM
Well, I propose we set it closer to Ghostman's suggestion.

Perhaps... post-roman? (with a heavier armor being present, but ultimately not prevalent?)

Maybe along the lines of these kinds of soliders floating about:

61515

EDIT: I have to say those are actually a pretty heavy mishmash of about 5 distinct periods.

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 08:01 PM
Dude totally planted his shield in the ground and did a touchdown dance :)


I like that idea very much. We could even move a bit forward of that (not a lot!)


But I really like the thought of Egyptian-ish and/or Inca-ish influence as well :?

I have a much better idea of what I don't like than what I do like :P

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 08:05 PM
Well.. which Kingdom of Egypt did you mean Ghost? Like Hellenic Egypt or pre-Alexander Conquest Egypt?

Falconius
02-17-2014, 08:07 PM
I say we mix and match what we like from any period. Which is why I did the template at the beginning of the thread. That looks good to me though.

One has to also remember that we have a whole world to play around with though. If you want aztec derived stuff throw that in etc.

We seem pretty evenly divided about the gun issue. I've seen two supporters and one maybe, and me, Jalyha, and Ghostman for no guns. So perhaps we can compromise and say that they've started working out early cannons in the odd case?

Scoopz
02-17-2014, 08:18 PM
Sure, cannons came a lot earlier than guns anyhow. In fact Ii'm having so much fun drawing little spearmen and whatnot, that I don't really need or care for guns or whatever.

... I like cannons though!

EDIT:

Have some more concept art:

61517

Azelor
02-18-2014, 12:12 PM
Ok well, maybe we need to trace a hard line whether or not guns have been invented even simple ones?

Regarding history, keep in mind that:

-People at that time may not realize yet that guns are going to change warfare and also some aspect of society (No more armor, stoned wall castle and walled cities become less important) We do because it happened in the past that's why it's so obvious.
-Changes usually take time and do not happen on a dime. For example, 1492 did not change the world much as 1453. In 1453 the political world changed significantly, thus marking the beginning of the Renaissance but that's more like an exception. 1750 is often regarded as the beginning of the industrial revolution but factories and railroads only became important around 1820-1830 in Europe.

Scoopz
02-18-2014, 12:36 PM
Alright I suggest this technology level in terms of land weapons/warfare:

Melee weapons: everything from warhammers, greatswords, and halberds, to hand-axes, shortswords, and pikes/spears.

Missile weapons: Mostly Bows, Longbows, Shortbows, etc. usage of crossbows is there, it happens. Early Siege Cannons, maybe. Slings? I don't know, that's too hellenic for me, but I'll support their inclusion. Throwing weapons, I.E. javelins, axes, etc. pretty prevalent.

Cavalry: I would say that the invention of shock cavalry has taken place, but heavy cav is really only prevalent in wars fought between major realms. Horsemen are readily available, and almost everyone has access to light cavalry or mounted infantry in some way.

EDIT: and the rest I just agree with Falconius' original suggestion.

Jalyha
02-18-2014, 12:57 PM
yeap. my point, though, is ... even if we don't know the world is changing, it changes faster than we think.

I'd like to explain my thought process, just so, if people don't understand where I'm coming from, at least you'll see the way I got there. :P


Using Azelor examples as a start:

1492-1453 = 61 years. A single lifetime.

1750-1820 = 70 years. Your dad could have seen the invention of the "irrelevant" new technologies.

60 years ago, children in America were being abused at school because of their skin color, and almost no one cared.

When I was a kid there was no such thing as internet, and less than 20 years ago, cell phones looked like a brick.

Change happens rapidly.

My point was that whatever technology we give our world, by the time the children are grown, it will be a totally different world.



I like to work with several generations in a world, so when I think about what the actual MAXIMUM level of tech I want to deal with (and those arquebus are probably that outer limit for me, personally) and then I go back, at least 200 years, and say... "Let's START here, so we can have a nice long trip to THERE."

I'm not as firm on it as I would be with my own personal world, by the thought process is still the same :P


So, while I'd prefer no gunpowder at all (cause it can spiral quickly) I'm not completely against low-tech, large, inefficient guns like cannons.. But cannons, in a few generations, will probably be a lot more.

And the HIGHER the level of tech you start with, the FASTER it advances.

It's hard for people who've only used wood and stone to learn to work with metal.

It's less difficult for people who've worked with bronze to learn to work with iron.

From there, once they are aware of how useful it is, they quickly (relatively) learn to work with steel.

With gunpowder... it starts off as something you just light on fire. Then someone puts it in tubes. That takes ages... why would they do that? Then cannons, cause someone says "this could be a great weapon!" Then relatively quickly, smaller guns, then better guns, and better guns, and the next thing you know, a sniper's killed all the wizards, and you're fighting battles with tanks instead of horses. Because the more tech you have, the more you can conceive of.

And yes, that takes many generations... or did, on earth. Maybe not exactly as long on another planet. maybe longer. but faster than I like.


Then again. ... I usully start my worlds with cavemen, and go from there, so I'm probably a lot slower than everyone else here. :P



EDIT: Oh, my preferences... Throwing weapons, spears, swords, whips made out of scorpion tails, halberds etc... shortbows, i guess longbows, maybe even some crossbows.... I don't really like cannons, but I wouldn't oppose them as a new-ish thing :P

Falconius
02-18-2014, 01:19 PM
Summarizing our progress so far...

Alright taking into account the thread progress I revised my original template trying to include the changes desired:

Art of war
Guns/Canons/Gunpowder: Early Cannon and Fireworks
Calvary: Heavy, and on rare occasions other beasts

Heavy horse cav: yes but expensive to waste
Calvary dominates the battle field
Armour: All the way up to 16th century plate (because that stuff is boss)
Hand weapons: All stuff until 15th 16th century
Missile weapons: Bows, more expensive; x-bows. Expensive and rare; other more advanced kinetic weapons (repeaters etc.)
Magically assisted weapons: Yes
Warrior codes: Advanced (bushido, chivalry, warrior societies like the Knights of Malta etc.)

Navigation and travel:
Compasses: G node compasses, no magnetic north compasses. Celestial navigation still possible obviously.
Chronometers: No, crude inaccurate mechanical clocks at best.
Dominant propulsion: Sail
Alternate propulsion: Yes
Steam: No, to very minor experimental use in small enclaves.
"Boat" types: Up to 15th century sail technology, i.e. Caravels ;)
Airships/airtravel:
No to airships in general, yes to limited (i.e. rare) magical conveyances and tending to range on the small size.
Flying creatures for travel/transport: Yes, anything. Rare.
Overland transport: Wagons, horses, etc. Possibly landships for special uses
Postal/carrier services: common for upper class.

Writing and learning
Printing press: No
Scholarship level: 15th century?
Learning institutions (eg. universities): Yes.
Heraldry: Advanced, still important.
Observation equipment: Crude telescopes.

Industry
Power sources: Wind/water flow, magical

Cam driven processes common (trip hammers, felters etc.)
Lathes: Wood only
Metallurgy: Steel is "common"

Cast iron possible, though inaccurate
Bronze casting is fairly accurate
Bell/cannon casting unreliable but common enough




*Note 1: Note this list only indicates the functionality of the technology achieved, not necessarily the actual technology.
**Note 2: Any early technology is obviously included here, and these listed technologies only represent the most advanced they have reached in the most advanced nations, which, obviously, large portions of the world will not have reached. I mean more than half the world was still fighting with pointy sticks while Europe was busy running around with guns.
***Note 3: We can obviously artificially stagnate or halt to quick advancement and keep our world in the same stage as long as we wish, or not depending. Obviously we are going to develop it at one fixed time for now so no need to worry too much about consequences.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there are any changes you'd like to see to this please bring them up for discussion. Especially since it's almost exclusively my list at this point, lacking any others to go on.

Jalyha
02-18-2014, 01:33 PM
Summarizing our progress so far...

Alright taking into account the thread progress I revised my original template trying to include the changes desired:

Art of war
Guns/Canons/Gunpowder: Early Cannon and Fireworks
Calvary: Heavy, and on rare occasions other beasts

Heavy horse cav: yes but expensive to waste
Calvary dominates the battle field

I can live with it.



Armour: All the way up to 16th century plate (because that stuff is boss)

It is. :P



Hand weapons: All stuff until 15th 16th century
Missile weapons: Bows, more expensive; x-bows. Expensive and rare; other more advanced kinetic weapons (repeaters etc.)
Magically assisted weapons: Yes

Like it.



Warrior codes: Advanced (bushido, chivalry, warrior societies like the Knights of Malta etc.)

Navigation and travel:
Compasses: G node compasses, no magnetic north compasses. Celestial navigation still possible obviously.
Chronometers: No, crude inaccurate mechanical clocks at best.
Dominant propulsion: Sail
Alternate propulsion: Yes
Steam: No, to very minor experimental use in small enclaves.
"Boat" types: Up to 15th century sail technology, i.e. Caravels ;)
Airships/airtravel:
No to airships in general, yes to limited (i.e. rare) magical conveyances and tending to range on the small size.
Flying creatures for travel/transport: Yes, anything. Rare.
Overland transport: Wagons, horses, etc. Possibly landships for special uses

I'd like to leave open the possibility of other world-specific species for overland travel?



Postal/carrier services: common for upper class.

Writing and learning
Printing press: No
Scholarship level: 15th century?
Learning institutions (eg. universities): Yes.
Heraldry: Advanced, still important.
Observation equipment: Crude telescopes.

I'm cool with all of that. I was thinking, though, of some sort of crude magical means of observation... not so much as scrying glasses/pools, as a more mental thing... maybe? What do people think of this?


Industry
Power sources: Wind/water flow, magical

Cam driven processes common (trip hammers, felters etc.)
Lathes: Wood only
Metallurgy: Steel is "common"

Cast iron possible, though inaccurate
Bronze casting is fairly accurate
Bell/cannon casting unreliable but common enough



I can deal with unreliable/common, but I'd prefer if not *all* the major nations had caught on to the cannon thing yet?





*Note 1: Note this list only indicates the functionality of the technology achieved, not necessarily the actual technology.
**Note 2: Any early technology is obviously included here, and these listed technologies only represent the most advanced they have reached in the most advanced nations, which, obviously, large portions of the world will not have reached. I mean more than half the world was still fighting with pointy sticks while Europe was busy running around with guns.
***Note 3: We can obviously artificially stagnate or halt to quick advancement and keep our world in the same stage as long as we wish, or not depending. Obviously we are going to develop it at one fixed time for now so no need to worry too much about consequences.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there are any changes you'd like to see to this please bring them up for discussion. Especially since it's almost exclusively my list at this point, lacking any others to go on.

I'm pretty cool with the list as is :)

Scoopz
02-18-2014, 01:34 PM
I think, that's a pretty good base. The whole cannon thing we can continue to deliberate on, but as a whole I'd say that's pretty good. I have a couple of questions though,

1.) What's alternate propulsion? magical?

2.) While I see a lot of "up to 15th-16th century" stuff, I assume a lot of the world is at a tech level lower than that, is that right? Like, equipping the bulk of their militaries with... less heavy armor and weapons?

Ghostman
02-18-2014, 01:39 PM
If we want to allow cannons, yet prevent smaller guns being invented and technology in general from advancing at too rapid a pace, then instead of gunpowder we could base it on steam cannons (http://web.mit.edu/2.009/www//experiments/steamCannon/ArchimedesSteamCannon.html). Such weapons might be useful for besieging a castle, but difficult to deploy effectively in a field battle (time needed to set them up & to heat them up, the need for test shots to get the aim right, the smoke from the fire revealing their location, etc) and absolutely useless for fast-paced small-scale skirmish actions. It also seems like the principle would be impossible or at least very difficult to adapt for handheld guns.

Jalyha
02-18-2014, 02:54 PM
That's GENIUS.

Guns like that would be practically impossible (although for some reason I'm thinking of those nerf cannon toys...)

But even if steam-guns were invented, eventually... it's new/different/might not be as bad

You haave all the best ideas D:

Falconius
02-18-2014, 04:00 PM
I'm happy with steam cannons, maybe fire throwers too (why not)? Remember the list deals with technological equivalences, not the actual technologies that achieves this effect. Steam cannons seem like a good way to achieve this goal without having to deal with the development and consequences of gunpowder. Although there is nothing really stopping the eventual development of steam rifles like they have in Last Exile.


I think, that's a pretty good base. The whole cannon thing we can continue to deliberate on, but as a whole I'd say that's pretty good. I have a couple of questions though,

1.) What's alternate propulsion? magical?

2.) While I see a lot of "up to 15th-16th century" stuff, I assume a lot of the world is at a tech level lower than that, is that right? Like, equipping the bulk of their militaries with... less heavy armor and weapons?
1: Yes magic, or whatever else we can come up with that is cool, maybe things like magical solar sails (that somehow work on the surface of a planet) etc.

2: Yes precisely. This list only represents he pinnacles of technologies represented in the most advanced regions of the world, so a very small portion of it overall probably.
I'd like to leave open the possibility of other world-specific species for overland travel?Yup ok.
I can deal with unreliable/common, but I'd prefer if not *all* the major nations had caught on to the cannon thing yet?Only major nations in contact with that region really. Europe was light years ahead of pretty much the entire rest of the world for a very long time for instance.
I'm cool with all of that. I was thinking, though, of some sort of crude magical means of observation... not so much as scrying glasses/pools, as a more mental thing... maybe? What do people think of this?To me this list really only represents the technological advancement in a more scientific sense. Personally I'd expect magic development to be significantly more advanced for "magical" type stuff (scrying pools, flying carpets etc.).

Azelor
02-18-2014, 07:57 PM
Europe only began to be ahead of most other countries around the Renaissance. Slowly at the start, the difference became really obvious during the 19th century.

Of course I do not expect that all our countries will have the same level of tech. We could have 1 or 2 countries slightly in advance with a bunch of other one that follow them pretty closely.

Azelor
03-11-2014, 01:12 AM
(stolen form Falconius>:))

Re-summarizing our progress so far...

Alright taking into account the thread progress I revised my original template trying to include the changes desired:

Art of war
Guns/Canons/Gunpowder: Early Cannon and Fireworks should we change this for steam cannon?
Calvary: Heavy, and on rare occasions other beasts
Heavy horse cav: yes but expensive to waste
Calvary dominates the battle field
Armour: All the way up to 16th century plate (because that stuff is boss)
Hand weapons: All stuff until 15th 16th century
Missile weapons: Bows, more expensive; x-bows. Expensive and rare; other more advanced kinetic weapons (repeaters etc.)
Magically assisted weapons: Yes
Warrior codes: Advanced (bushido, chivalry, warrior societies like the Knights of Malta etc.)

Navigation and travel:
Compasses: G node compasses, no magnetic north compasses. Celestial navigation still possible obviously.
Chronometers: No, crude inaccurate mechanical clocks at best.
Dominant propulsion: Sail
Alternate propulsion: Yes
Steam: No, to very minor experimental use in small enclaves.
"Boat" types: Up to 15th century sail technology, i.e. Caravels
Airships/airtravel:
No to airships in general, yes to limited (i.e. rare) magical conveyances and tending to range on the small size.
Flying creatures for travel/transport: Yes, anything. Rare.
Overland transport: Wagons, horses, etc. Possibly landships for special uses
Postal/carrier services: common for upper class.

Writing and learning
Printing press: No
Observation equipment: Crude telescopes.

Industry
Power sources: Wind/water flow, magical
Cam driven processes common (trip hammers, felters etc.)
Lathes: Wood only
Metallurgy: Steel is "common"
Cast iron possible, though inaccurate, and rather uncommon
Bronze casting is fairly accurate
Bell casting: common
cannon: inefficient and rare



*Note 1: Note this list only indicates the functionality of the technology achieved, not necessarily the actual technology.
**Note 2: Any early technology is obviously included here, and these listed technologies only represent the most advanced they have reached in the most advanced nations, which, obviously, large portions of the world will not have reached. I mean more than half the world was still fighting with pointy sticks while Europe was busy running around with guns.
***Note 3: We can obviously artificially stagnate or halt to quick advancement and keep our world in the same stage as long as we wish, or not depending. Obviously we are going to develop it at one fixed time for now so no need to worry too much about consequences.

Ghostman
03-11-2014, 12:18 PM
Overland transport: Wagons, horses, chocobos (as requested by Jalyha), etc. Possibly landships for special uses

I'm not against including domesticated giant birds, but we should name them something other than chocobos. That word is firmly associated with Final Fantasy in my mind.



What about literacy level ?


This has varied very much throughout the world in the past, even now in the modern age. Illiteracy would be much more widespread in a world without printing press. Organized education and public libraries accessible to lower-class people will probably raise the local literacy level quite a bit, but those things require a rather stable and sophisticated society. Religion can also play a significant role in promoting or discouraging literacy.

Azelor
03-11-2014, 12:22 PM
I know, the chocobo was just a joke...

Falconius
03-12-2014, 06:44 PM
That was my intention I think with the level of scholarship, since literacy is really an individual case basis, I kind of wanted to establish a top line of scholarly achievement. In which I mean have we reached a Descartes level or has a Galileo started work somewhere? Etc. In reality it is not important to know really I think,it should just be dropped entirety from the list.

Azelor
04-02-2014, 12:27 AM
I made some modification to the post above. Is there anything to add or change ?

Falconius
04-02-2014, 03:03 AM
I made some modification to the post above. Is there anything to add or change ?Chocobos are serious business. You are wrong,very very wrong. Is that what you're talking about? :P

As regards to the list I honestly couldn't spot the alterations (probably because it's been a while) and overall it looks pretty good to me. I say we adopt it and move forward, whatever that means.