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Jalyha
02-06-2014, 09:27 PM
or... sort of.

I found this tutorial (http://www.cartographersguild.com/tutorials-how/2238-%5Baward-winner%5D-using-tectonic-plates-draw-world-map.html) on tectonics, read it all, decided it was more complicated than the tutorial stated, used the tutorial as the basis for drawing my plates, and now I'm going to peck away at it till I have a planet :)

I figure, I'm getting nowhere with anything else I'm trying to do, and I NEED a map for my novel, or I'm never going to write it. Plus I get bored if I'm only working on one map, so I need another area to turn to :P

So....................

yeah.

I drew these plates, and (from other posts in the tutorial thread and elsewhere) I know they move a little less firmly than the arrows show, so I've copied them down on paper, cut them apart, and am moving them by hand (fun) to see where they might end up.

I'm probably going to have to take lots of other pics of the movements to watch my landmasses change/grow/disappear, so I figured, "Why not post it on CG so that people can tell me when I screw up?" and then I said "What a great idea, Jalyha! Who cares what the experts say, you ARE a genius."

And then I spent about an hour chatting with me, and complimenting ourselves back and forth, and then tried to draw a big pangea-continent and it didn't work, so I came here to post! :)

(Aren't you glad I did?)

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Jalyha
02-06-2014, 10:15 PM
Added a big ugly, vaguely-pangea shaped blob:

61106


And I drew it all on paper and cut out the puzzle pieces.

After reading the comments in the tutorial listed above, and re-reading this one (http://www.cartographersguild.com/mapping-elements/25934-defining-mountain-locations-through-tectonic-plate-movement.html) I was kind of stuck on how to proceed. I want to reflect semi-accurately all the different ways the plates move... but how, when I just have flat pieces?

So... my generic solution was threading each piece on a piece of string and winding them all (almost fitting perfectly, YAY) around a styrofoam crafting ball.

I think I will fold some bits down where they would sink back into the ocean, and look at the blank spaces in between that occur with the movement of the shrinking plates as new plate/land growth from the other side.

It might not work well, but I figure it's less random than just pushing the plates in the direction of my shaky arrows, yes?

Jalyha
02-06-2014, 11:14 PM
And... that way I had no way to tell what the new plates/land masses would be doing, so after a half hour of pointlessness, I switched to a bigger ball, bigger landmasses/plates, and some playdoh.


The playdoh worked better, and it only took about 5-10 minutes once I switched to that, partly because playdoh is easy to mold, and partly because I'd already figured out where the starting plates were going.... of course, playdoh smears, so... probably lost a little of my accuracy that way, and since I don't understand tectonics well, I probably messed up a lot.

And I stopped making mountains and stuff at this point, cause I've stopped moving my landmasses, I figure I've slowed down to real-time, so...

Here's what I'm working with at this point (The white thingies will be mountains/volcanic islands, the others are for my own reference.

I think the coastlines tutorials will help with the erosion factors, so the continents won't be so... blobby. :D

61109

And that was the fun/easy part ^.^

Next, unless someone notices any glaring problems, I will rough up the coasts, and fix up the mountain ranges, and then I might work on wind/climate issues :)

I'm trying REALLY hard not to concentrate on anything aesthetic right now, so please, no one say it's ugly... I'll try to make it pretty once I have all the other stuffs worked out. :D

Jalyha
02-07-2014, 12:53 AM
Black and white o.o;

(My central continent reminds me of a prancing rhinocerous!)

(Yes they can too prance!)

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AND on a globe... so I forgot the longer width thing, and my central continent is kind of stretched... I'll work on it in the morning:


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Zach
02-07-2014, 08:16 AM
What kind of projection is that 2D map? The majority of map projections (especially ones that are rectangles and not some weird shape) stretch the pole out along one or more edges, so it's pretty common that such an edge has to be filled with all land or all sea. To say otherwise means that the pole is right on the coast somehow. That COULD happen, but it's unlikely. That also gives you an odd channel that cuts through your southern continent and stops right at the south pole (but there might be some interesting canonical explanation for that).

Relatedly, anything that seems to "point" at the top or bottom edges of the map is pointing at the pole, so it looks like the north pole has three continents converging on it. Again, narrative significance reigns supreme, so if it's all for the point of telling a good story, then it's absolutely fine.

Jalyha
02-07-2014, 09:20 AM
No, no significance to any of this... just, where I tried to do the plates :(

I think I will try to fill it out with water, then :)


As for the pole... well... maybe a different angle will help?

Jalyha
02-07-2014, 10:41 AM
GAHHHHH!@

So... I thought I fixed my problem, and I put the map on a globe, and it looked perfect in the preview, but then the globe came out as an oval???


This is what I got, (the preview, and the globe itself) Anyone know how to fix this?:

61128

Jalyha
02-07-2014, 11:43 AM
Annnnnd... I think I've pretty much got the shape of the continents, and the placement of the mountain (ranges)

Now I think I should do winds/climate? To figure out where the forests and deserts and things will be?

61129

sangi39
02-07-2014, 02:30 PM
GAHHHHH!@

So... I thought I fixed my problem, and I put the map on a globe, and it looked perfect in the preview, but then the globe came out as an oval???


This is what I got, (the preview, and the globe itself) Anyone know how to fix this?:

61128

IIRC, you just have to scale the image (of the sphere) so that the height is the same as the width :)

sangi39
02-07-2014, 02:33 PM
To say otherwise means that the pole is right on the coast somehow. That COULD happen, but it's unlikely.

Wait, if Antarctica on Earth is gradually moving north, then at some point the South Pole will eventually be coastal, won't it? And the same would be true of any landmass moving south, or have I missed something?

Jalyha
02-07-2014, 02:38 PM
Well... wouldn't it depend on what is happening with the other plates too, though? The ones they will run into?



&& Thanks about the globe, it worked!!!

Gamerprinter
02-07-2014, 03:03 PM
Well technically speaking the earth is an oblate spheroid (a little wider at the equator, than at the poles) and not a perfect sphere - but its a lot more spherical than what you got in your thumbnail.

Jalyha
02-07-2014, 03:09 PM
Aye :P Had to fix that.. it was nutty looking ^.^

sangi39
02-08-2014, 03:09 PM
Well... wouldn't it depend on what is happening with the other plates too, though? The ones they will run into?

Well, I found this image (http://lh6.ggpht.com/-4J7FiAtjKJo/S65VxwNo7YI/AAAAAAAACTY/7VnQZe8Vubw/s640/continental_drift.jpg) which seems to suggest that at one point in the past the southern pole was covered by ocean rather than the Antarctic landmass, which over time gradually moved southwards until the pole was instead covered by land. Reasonably speaking, it seems that the pole would have, at some point, been on the Antarctic coast.



&& Thanks about the globe, it worked!!!

S'alright :)

Jalyha
02-08-2014, 03:28 PM
Aye, so possible at some point but still gives people that "unreal" vibe so... maybe idk

eternalsage
02-08-2014, 03:34 PM
Looking good so far. I like the Play Doh idea. Sounds fun :D. I Totally recommend this tutorial thing for the climate stuff (http://jc.tech-galaxy.com/bricka/climate_cookbook.html) (and yes, that's kinda where you are at the moment). Its been invaluable to me in my similar endevours here (http://www.cartographersguild.com/regional-world-mapping/25880-wip-unnamed-fantasy-world-realistic-concerns.html).

Now, that central continent is huge, so its going to have some pretty wild weather stuff going on, especially as it is huge in both the northern and southern hemispheres. I think you may get some climate types that are nothing like we have on earth. Also, the center of that continent is gonna be HOT and most probably quite dry. Like the Sahara turned up to 11. Or at least that is my impression at first glance. Also, having continents at both north and south poles will make things interesting, as it keeps all the water in the oceans just a little bit warmer. Again, at a glance, based on what I've read, this world looks positively Triassic Era (Warm, dry, and fairly uniformly so).

I'll look more when I get home tonight.

Jalyha
02-08-2014, 05:59 PM
So... would this work?:

61180

Jalyha
02-08-2014, 06:01 PM
temperature wise, i mean..

And i still don't understand how the mountains will affect that, or where to make it rain (no, not like that! Gosh!) on my map, even if I have the temperature right? >.<

eternalsage
02-08-2014, 06:17 PM
At a quick look while on break the temps look pretty good. The rest will be largely be determined by starting with your pressure zones.

Sent from my Samsung Centura using Tapatalk.

Jalyha
02-08-2014, 07:10 PM
Aye I did that (though I think I posted it on another thread... but it was totally messed up.

I checked out your maps and your links again, and re-tried:

61181


SO... then I overlaid my heat map (which is pretty close but not quite a match)

61182

So... either... one of them is accurate, and the other is off, or they are both nearly accurate but not quite, OR I'm doing this completely wrong...


And in any of those cases, they aren't even pretty to look at :(

Jalyha
02-08-2014, 09:31 PM
While I'm waiting, I added some ocean color and cut out my continents/added a few islands :)

I think it actually IS kind of pretty in a way. Here's hoping it stays that way ^.^

61187

eternalsage
02-08-2014, 11:43 PM
Aye I did that (though I think I posted it on another thread... but it was totally messed up.

I checked out your maps and your links again, and re-tried:



Ok. You have the basic premise, but it looks like you missed two major ideas. First, it matters if we are talking summer or winter here because the pressure over land differs on the season. The other thing (and its related) is that it is different depending on north or south hemisphere. What I mean is that in the north, when its summer then it tends to be low pressure over land and high pressure over water, driving moisture laden air over the land, bringing summer rains (or even the rainy season, if you are in the tropics), while at this exact time the south is experiencing winter, which is characterized by high pressure over the land and low pressure over the water, pushing the colder air that builds up in the interior of the continent out and over the ocean. These two things happen simultaneously over the globe, depending on which side of the equator we are on. I doodled up this based on the map you posted as a guideline. I didn't take enough time to ensure its 100% accurate, so I'd look it over before committing to it. Also note that this is just for northern hemisphere summer, so you'd need one for northern hemisphere winter to get a full picture of your wind patterns.


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Oh, also remember the Coriolis Effect because of the rotation of the earth. It means that the direction of your winds and currents turn in different ways depending on which hemisphere you are in. The map I made has the correct motions (I think :D, I'd double check, I', tired right now) so it should move you in the right direction.


SO... then I overlaid my heat map (which is pretty close but not quite a match)

So... either... one of them is accurate, and the other is off, or they are both nearly accurate but not quite, OR I'm doing this completely wrong...

And in any of those cases, they aren't even pretty to look at :(

Again, I wouldn't worry to much about the heat map. It does look however like you are unilaterally equating high pressure with high heat. That is not entirely accurate. High pressure zones tend to be less cloudy, which means there is often a very high variability in temperature between day and night, which means that during the summer those areas tend to be hotter and during the winter they tend to be colder, on average. For my maps, though, I tended to just focus on distance from the equator and height, as those seem to have much more to do with temp than pressure. The pressure map is going to help you determine precipitation levels (along with a few other bits of info, like ocean currents and wind directions). When you know your precipitation levels, then you can compare that to the heat map and figure out climate zones and biomes.

I know this is a lot of information. Climates and meteorology are very complex things, and to try and understand it all enough to make a reasonable facsimile for a map is a tall order. Don't give up. I've been reading that website like its a holy book for weeks now, and I only recently have started really feeling like I understand it all. Just keep trying, and I think you've just about got it. And for all I know I could still be just a bit off myself (if so, sorry :D). I'm still just a little unsure of the winds thing overall, especially in relation to the ITCZ, STHZ, and PF. Good luck!! Look forward to your next WIP!

PS Oh, and if I haven't said so yet, I do like the continents you have going on. Its going to be very interesting to see how things pan out because of all the differences from earth (both poles covered with land, most of the other land centered on the equator, etc). I think this is going to be an epic map once you have all the pieces in place. Have fun!

Jalyha
02-09-2014, 12:21 AM
I thought high pressure = dry and low pressure = rain? cause of the air rising and the book thing says water falls from rising air, yes?


the heat map... I kinda figured with so much land mass, it would be pretty hot everywhere?

AND with climate stuff, I was thinking it would be laid out like...

61194

And then I had put it on my globe for testing :P

61195


I'll look over yours and compare it when I'm a little more awake/able to comprehend where I went wrong :D

And thanks so much for helping me!


EDIT WAAAAAAAAAAITTTTT Yours is for northern summer? And mine was (trying to be) northern winter

And they are pretty much opposite, until I get near the south pole... does thaat mean I did mine right or even worse than I thought??? >.<

eternalsage
02-09-2014, 12:31 AM
I thought high pressure = dry and low pressure = rain? cause of the air rising and the book thing says water falls from rising air, yes?


the heat map... I kinda figured with so much land mass, it would be pretty hot everywhere?


EDIT WAAAAAAAAAAITTTTT Yours is for northern summer? And mine was (trying to be) northern winter

And they are pretty much opposite, until I get near the south pole... does thaat mean I did mine right or even worse than I thought??? >.<

My understanding is that is basically correct, as far as high and low pressure goes. But wind and mountains and stuff like that is going to alter what that means for the overall planet.

And yes, looking at yours for northern winter, it does make a lot more sense. :D Not sure why I was starting with summer, although probably because I've been working on a southern hemisphere oriented map. :D Good stuff. LOL.

Jalyha
02-09-2014, 12:36 AM
oh goodie!

Okay, so I have my northern summer (or fairly close) from what you made, and northern winter (or at least enough not to melt under the disapproving gaze of the entire guild) and so ... I don't understand what that means as far as my *wind* and *rain*


I'm trying to figure... I've got yellow (desert/very dry) and green (rain-foresty/jungle-y) areas, and a (very few) moderate areas (comparitively) (Ignore the darker parts near one side of mountains, I want cliffs/hills there)

So... would that map layout make sense with the pressure zones I (we) did?

If not, can I just take my computer and throw it at the wall? :D (kidding, kidding)

This stuff makes me feel stoopid x.x

Jalyha
02-09-2014, 03:33 AM
Actually, prolly easier to visualize if I play with paints, so...

61198


AND on the globe:

61199

Azelor
02-09-2014, 10:20 AM
Is it normal that the globe is stretched right left ? Also, I think the lightning effect is too strong. I know the desert have a strong albedo but this look more like there is a star between the planet and the viewer 8)

eternalsage
02-09-2014, 12:22 PM
oh goodie!

Okay, so I have my northern summer (or fairly close) from what you made, and northern winter (or at least enough not to melt under the disapproving gaze of the entire guild) and so ... I don't understand what that means as far as my *wind* and *rain*


I'm trying to figure... I've got yellow (desert/very dry) and green (rain-foresty/jungle-y) areas, and a (very few) moderate areas (comparitively) (Ignore the darker parts near one side of mountains, I want cliffs/hills there)

So... would that map layout make sense with the pressure zones I (we) did?

If not, can I just take my computer and throw it at the wall? :D (kidding, kidding)

This stuff makes me feel stoopid x.x

Okay, the wind is done in with the pressure on the maps we've been playing with (They are the swirly bits coming off or going into the major pressure zones, btw). To get an accurate depiction of your rainfall, you have to take into account quite a few variables. A quote from the Climate Cookbook (http://jc.tech-galaxy.com/bricka/climate_cookbook.html):




Factor High precipitation Low precipitation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pressure ITCZ, on or near the equator STHZ
Mountains Windward sides Leeward sides, in rain-shadow
Prevailing winds Onshore Offshore or parallel
Coastal currents Warm Cold, especially in low latitudes
Location West coasts subject to PF, and inland Interiors


What I did was make a numeric scale of relative rainfall (mine was 0 to 5) and go through and assign each major location a value. They all start at 2 (which is the median value). Then you go through and raise and lower values according to the chart quoted above. For example, a place on (or near) the ITCZ is going to go up by 1 while a location on (or near) the STHZ is going to down by one. Then I move on to Mountains, increasing numbers on the windward sides, and reducing numbers on the leeward sides. Only change a value by 1 on any single pass (Pressure, mountains, winds, etc). When you have done all the adjustments, normalize the values (don't let any values go above 5 or below 0, as such a thing doesn't exist) by simply moving anything above 5 down to 5 and anything below 0 up to 0. I then colored by numbers to create my two rainfall maps over in my thread (http://www.cartographersguild.com/regional-world-mapping/25880-wip-unnamed-fantasy-world-realistic-concerns-3.html).

Maybe I should work this up into a tutorial? Any way, see if this helps.

Jalyha
02-09-2014, 12:52 PM
Is it normal that the globe is stretched right left ? Also, I think the lightning effect is too strong. I know the desert have a strong albedo but this look more like there is a star between the planet and the viewer 8)

eh.... the stretching thing was "it's past my bedtime"-ness :P and you're right I should tone down the lighting I just forgot how I got it so bright :P (plus trying to hide the lack of any rivers/real mountains yet ^.^!


Okay, the wind is done in with the pressure on the maps we've been playing with (They are the swirly bits coming off or going into the major pressure zones, btw). To get an accurate depiction of your rainfall, you have to take into account quite a few variables. A quote from the Climate Cookbook (http://jc.tech-galaxy.com/bricka/climate_cookbook.html):




Factor High precipitation Low precipitation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pressure ITCZ, on or near the equator STHZ
Mountains Windward sides Leeward sides, in rain-shadow
Prevailing winds Onshore Offshore or parallel
Coastal currents Warm Cold, especially in low latitudes
Location West coasts subject to PF, and inland Interiors


What I did was make a numeric scale of relative rainfall (mine was 0 to 5) and go through and assign each major location a value. They all start at 2 (which is the median value). Then you go through and raise and lower values according to the chart quoted above. For example, a place on (or near) the ITCZ is going to go up by 1 while a location on (or near) the STHZ is going to down by one. Then I move on to Mountains, increasing numbers on the windward sides, and reducing numbers on the leeward sides. Only change a value by 1 on any single pass (Pressure, mountains, winds, etc). When you have done all the adjustments, normalize the values (don't let any values go above 5 or below 0, as such a thing doesn't exist) by simply moving anything above 5 down to 5 and anything below 0 up to 0. I then colored by numbers to create my two rainfall maps over in my thread (http://www.cartographersguild.com/regional-world-mapping/25880-wip-unnamed-fantasy-world-realistic-concerns-3.html).

Maybe I should work this up into a tutorial? Any way, see if this helps.


Did you just throw math at me? D:

I'm kidding, I'm kidding I can do basic addition :P

Why can't they go above 5 or below 0? What if your world is so dry it SUCKS UP ALL THE MOISTURE from the surrounding air? :o

Sorry I'm kidding, I'll be good

I think a tutorial would be great. Call it "Climate for Dummies: Jalyha this means you!" :P

(Seriously I need that sometimes!)

But okay, I will see if I can follow this :)

Stay tuned !!

Jalyha
02-09-2014, 02:20 PM
Okay, so I did the numbers, and ended up with a LOT of 6 and 7's and negative numbers?

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Is that normal? Did I even do them right?

So then I converted them like you said to nothing more than 5 or less than 0:

61218


So the 0's... that would be desert areas, right?

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With 1's pretty dry, 2's and 3's (not many) being "normal"ish and 4's and 5's being really wet?

Jalyha
02-09-2014, 02:55 PM
Okay so (keeping in mind i wasn't as careful outlining my "major areas"... this is what I had for Northern Winter:


61221

AND


Northern Summer:

61222



So... am I at least doing it right? If so, I will do a more careful, detailed one :P If not, I have to have a CAT Scan :(

eternalsage
02-09-2014, 04:42 PM
Yea. That looks good. Just add in some gradation because a 0 next to a 5 makes no sense. You did it right (at least it looks similar to what I expected) what I'm getting at is that the numbers really only give you half the info. The rest is artistic vision. Just insert 1-4 into the space between and you should be good.

It was the same for mine, I just covered the numbers on the same layer (dumb)

Sent from my Samsung Centura using Tapatalk.

Jalyha
02-09-2014, 04:53 PM
Okie, I will color it prettier then ^.^

Glad I'm kind of getting it lol :P

Then I'll just put together my wind, and precipitation, and temperature maps and try to figure out what actually goes in each area :P

Jalyha
02-09-2014, 06:15 PM
Actually... I think you might be off?

If I just randomly decide that it must be wrong/need fixing and change it, I'm gonna get random results.

So I was thinking how can I merge these areas into something comprehensible and I realized that the main reason the precipitation maps matter is because it gives a picture of, not just the summer/winter rainfall, but the AVERAGE ANNUAL rainfall.

So, being a bear of very little brain... I averaged them. I outlined all the areas in my winter map on a new transparency. Then on the same transparency, I outlined my summer map. Then, I averaged the numbers... if an area is purple (3) in one, and yellow (0) in the other that's a total of 3 divided by 2 seasons and I've got a 1.5 area.

So... When I finished that, the "0s" weren't really so far from the "5s".

This is what I ended up with:

61223

So, I'm thinking, if I expand my color scheme, and color this in, I'll see a more plausible clime, and without "fudging" the results :)

I also think it makes more sense that way... there's more differences in precipitation than 5... :P

So... although I never would get anything if I tried to figure out the more complicated rains in each season, I think it will be better to go off this expanded representation for determining the actual biomes?

I don't know if I'm explaining my thoughts well... does this make any sense at all?


EDIT: I mean like making it a scale of 1-10... the .5s would be a 1, 1 would be a 2, 1.5 a 3, and so on... 10 point difference instead of 5?

Jalyha
02-09-2014, 09:49 PM
My weird concept colored in:

61226

?????

eternalsage
02-09-2014, 10:34 PM
The only problem with average is that it may give you a mistaken impression of some of the more nuanced environs like savana which swings wildly. But sometimes the really gritty detail like that is beyond your scope. Its all about what serves the artistic vision best.

As far as scale goes it doesn't really matter. The reason I normalize is that I've defined 0 as the least and 5 as the most. My map never had any big need of it, but mine is also less extreme. Not criticism, just true. The fact that your map has so many factors that lead to extreme climate it makes sense that you have things that go over 5 and under 0. Your original map looked really good. Not sure I understand the new one.

Sent from my Samsung Centura using Tapatalk.

Jalyha
02-09-2014, 11:55 PM
Okay :) I just think better in color lol

I'm not replacing the seasonal with the average, I'm just adding to it.

I think you're right, mine needs more detail cause it's CRAZY :( I didn't mean for it to be, that's just the way the playdoh plates moved :P

I'm adding heat maps too!

I used your technique for the precipitation (modified for heat factors) to get a better heat map (since mine was mostly guesswork). It is taking a LONG time :(


Which map looked good and which one you don't understand? I'm confused, cause I posted too many xD

Jalyha
02-10-2014, 06:04 AM
OMG It almost looks like a real map!!

I spent ALL NIGHT (literally - it's 5 am-ish) And I think I've got a reasonably believable heat map (at least, for my virtually prehistoric planet). :D


So this is the heat-map-in-progress:

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ANDDDDDDD This is the semi-finalized version:

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What do you all think?! ^.^

eternalsage
02-10-2014, 10:29 AM
Looks about right. Even the warm poles (Triassic earth had temperate climates at the poles). I think this is spot on.

And the ones I liked were in post 31.

Sent from my Samsung Centura using Tapatalk.

Jalyha
02-10-2014, 10:55 AM
Awesome ^.^

I'M building a whole planet from nothing :D "I have ultimate power. Yeeees."


Oh the summer/winter rainfalls. I liked those they were fun ^.^


Okay well what happened is... because of the wind and the shape of my mountains, some of the winter/summer areas didn't line up exactly (plus, I'm sloppy) so... I went and basically just laid them over the top of each other but that meant not only were some areas 0-5, but there were areas *in between* ... those weird areas that didn't overlap right.

So instead of having a "0.5" on the map, which would be confusing, (the one with the numbers!) I decided to just make it a 0-10 color scale. I think I made some poor "in between" color choices, though :P

But it's the same type of scale you used? just... bigger.

Basically what it shows is like... a farmer's report... Total precipitation for the whole year. If you look at in inches(cm?) instead of colors it might make more sense :/

I did the same for the heat map, except I used a suggested color scheme, and labeled it better ^.^ So I guess the ones you didn't get would be called "Average Mean Precipitation"? :P

Anyway, I might redo that one but it's more just a reference for me

Also... I wonder if it's a subliminal thing... ever since you said "Triassic" now I keep seeing a dinosaur as my center continent D:

Azelor
02-10-2014, 11:53 AM
What is the symbol under the Celsuis scale ? They usually use the Kelvin if there is more that one temperature scale.

Your poles are very hot, but I guess it is possible.

Jalyha
02-10-2014, 12:20 PM
NOPE not Kelvin... that's the local temperature scale in the language of the people of that world... I just made it up!!


The poles ARE hot. First, cause it's a smallish planet, and second because of the large masses of land there. It scared me at first but it makes sense when I looked at the numbers, and the *why* of the numbers...

They might cool off again though... I still need to put the wind/heat/precipitation maps together and get something more... accurate ^.~

Jalyha
02-10-2014, 10:48 PM
Okay... I'm so lost. How does "super hot and always rainy" differ in any visible (map-wise) way from "super-hot and rainy most of the year" or "super-hot and rainy all summer"?

eternalsage
02-10-2014, 11:05 PM
Super hot and always rainy is rainforest while hot and only rainy in summer is savana.

Sent from my Samsung Centura using Tapatalk.

Azelor
02-11-2014, 12:26 AM
NOPE not Kelvin... that's the local temperature scale in the language of the people of that world... I just made it up!!


The poles ARE hot. First, cause it's a smallish planet, and second because of the large masses of land there. It scared me at first but it makes sense when I looked at the numbers, and the *why* of the numbers...

They might cool off again though... I still need to put the wind/heat/precipitation maps together and get something more... accurate ^.~

It's entirely possible that the poles are hotter that ours, I haven't put much time thinking about this possibility.

Savanna can also be : hot + rainy only in winter

So map wise, I guess it depend what time of the year it is. During the rainy season and afterward, it's green everywhere. But this dry up as time passes and some area will look almost like deserts. Not all places will experience such a big climatic contrast. Some places like Caracas Venezuela still have rain during the dry season. It's considered savanna only because there is a huge difference in rainfall but it's far from becoming a desert.

Jalyha
02-11-2014, 10:00 AM
I'm still wavering on the heat of the poles... it matches up, but it makes me nervous >.<


So... wait... to draw the world accurately, I'd pretty much need summer AND winter maps even of the actual planet? >.<

How does anyone ever map anything? D:


Okay, done whining now. Back to work, lazy Jalyha!

Jalyha
02-11-2014, 04:48 PM
Did I do a good map? D:

Okayyyyyyyyyyy this was much harder than the others, but I just couldn't wrap my head around the information in the previous precipitation maps... just... couldn't do it.


So... I found a better color scale (Thanks to free-to-use maps of my county, which I got idea of from another thread...) And I repainted both my January and June Precipitation maps in laborious detail.

SO I think it looks better, and I can visualize the rain better now, so I'm happy! :)

Oh, yeah, and I named my world, I think... not on purpose, these things just happen randomly with me...

61299

and

61301

Pixie
02-11-2014, 07:16 PM
Seems better, way better.
One question is this map to be used in conjunction with the temperature map to establish climate areas using "Geoff's Climate Cookbook"? If so, you don't need so many different levels for rain - just Very Dry, Dry, Moderate, Wet and Very Wet.
If you are going to follow the actual Koppen classification, then what you have is what you need.

Either way, I'd say you're in the right path.

Jalyha
02-11-2014, 07:24 PM
I did use the climate cookbook, got all the way up to establishing the biomes, and couldn't figure out the subtleties, so I wasn't sure what to do. Sounds like this koppen thing may be just what I need ! :) Thanks.

And thanks for the compliment :D

Jalyha
02-12-2014, 10:58 AM
OMG this koppen thing is complicated D:

I love it, but it takes a lot of calculating, and I *do* need that annual precipitation map (with the improved scale) so I have to make that first, so no update yet...


Also... because of the giant landmasses on the poles, I have no "arctic" climates... and all of my lands are above freezing, so my classifications will have to be a bit different, yes? Anyone?

Pixie
02-12-2014, 11:17 AM
LOL, if you want to invent climate classifications as well what's stopping you from "inventing" everything? ;)

Now, on a serious note, the point of climate classification is to make it easier to identify what sort of climate a region has. If you don't use a system people is familiar with, then there's no point - as you are not making it easier at all.

Jalyha
02-12-2014, 11:35 AM
No I mean, like... I have TROPICAL/humid (A) climates with 70% of rainfall in winter (s).... but there's no "As"

Then, I have some highlands on my poles what do you do with that?

Also 94.3% of my land has over 125 cm of annual precipitation, so could be prone to monsoons... 3.2% of that land has any months with less than 6 cm... but of that 3%... NONE of those areas are on the coast. So... what? The water jumps over the coast and smashes into a village 400 miles away? >.<

How do I account for the WEIRDNESS of my world compared to earth?


EDIT: Nvm my math was way off... that's what I get for working in metrics >.< But... here's my areas that from what I've gathered, are monsoon areas (SHORT dry season, driest month < 6cm(60mm?) precipitation w/ annual precip. > 1250 mm(125cm))

What am I still doing wrong?

61327

Jalyha
02-12-2014, 02:44 PM
Okay so here's a pic of those monsoon-able areas again, with a inset showing my work screen trying to figure out all the Koppen Classifications and I'm going NUTS

61329

The C/D thing.... My "polar" regions are very warm/large/covered by land and don't behave like polar regions... more like mid-latitude zones... more temperate (comparitively) so I'm thinking (since the poles are still colder than the rest) they might behave more like the Cold mid-latitudes, and the actual mid-latitudes would behave as the warm mid-latitudes.

Since the whole thing with this classification system is that it's determined by the type of *vegetation* that grows there, this makes sense to me... does it make sense to others? D:

2nd... when there's a conflict in the classifications... which thing takes priority? Heat? Wind? Water? Location? Pressure? Everything? If there's a conflict does it mean I messed up? If so, where?


My brain hurts. And I have no idea what to do about the durned monsoons >.<

Help? :shock:

Azelor
02-12-2014, 07:25 PM
I think you misunderstand how monsoon works : Monsoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsoon)

Basically, clouds will form over the coasts and move toward the low pressure zones.

Jalyha
02-12-2014, 07:40 PM
But .... gah lemme find it again.

Okay. Yes. That's how a *monsoon* works... I'm speaking of the Tropical Monsoon *climate* (Am on Koppen classification) which:

Tropical Monsoon Climate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_monsoon_climate):


Tropical monsoon climates have monthly mean temperatures above 18C in every month of the year and feature wet and dry seasons, as Tropical savanna climates do. Unlike tropical savanna climates however, a tropical monsoon climate's driest month sees less than 60 mm of precipitation but more than (100 − [total annual precipitation {mm}/25]). Also a tropical monsoon climate tends to see less variance in temperatures during the course of the year than a tropical savanna climate. This climate has a driest month which nearly always occurs at or soon after the "winter" solstice for that side of the equator.

All my zones that meet those qualifications are far from the coast... and not always in the direction of the low pressure zones...

So does that mean I have no monsoon climates? no monsoons at all? Monsoons through the whole are reaching back to the coast from those zones? >.< I'm so lost.

eternalsage
02-12-2014, 08:30 PM
The middle continent would definitely get monsoons. Its huge east to west which is the biggest thing.

Sent from my Samsung Centura using Tapatalk.

Jalyha
02-12-2014, 08:34 PM
Right, which is what I thought.. but I'm not getting monsoon climates there almost at all... which means I messed up somewhere, right? >.<

Jalyha
02-12-2014, 08:41 PM
Here's my biomes-in-progress (tentatively nearly done) with the Monsoon climates laid over the top (that would be the bright yellow... they've cut right through my mountains and highlands in a few places, which I'm pretty sure is impossible? And how are they coming up from the coast here? It just feels... wrong... but I triple checked everything! :(


61351

Where did I mess up? :(

Azelor
02-12-2014, 09:14 PM
I think it would be much easier to decide the climates with the Koppen classification and then, set the precipitations and temperature. Then you will know the temperature and rainfall range for each area. I think it's easier to visualize the climates as they appear with Koppen than a combination of annual precipitation and temperature and it's also easier because the possibilities are more limited.

Monsoon and rain usually don't cross mountains ranges and high plateau. The monsoon in India is the strongest on earth, yet it barely reach Tibet. Yea, highlands can also block the rain if they are high enough.

Jalyha
02-12-2014, 09:35 PM
That's what I should have done, but I wanted to work forward instead of backward for once :P

Yeah, the mountain thing was what made me realize something was seriously off.

Fortunately I found the issue... there was a point where I mixed up my *average* rainfalls and my *total* rainfalls... which barely, if at all, affects the biomes, but DRAMATICALLY affected the monsoon climates. :) I'll post an update shortly ^.^

(Or maybe in the morning cause I'm exhausted and have to redo every single thing I did today :(

eternalsage
02-13-2014, 07:51 AM
I think it would be much easier to decide the climates with the Koppen classification and then, set the precipitations and temperature. Then you will know the temperature and rainfall range for each area. I think it's easier to visualize the climates as they appear with Koppen than a combination of annual precipitation and temperature and it's also easier because the possibilities are more limited.

Monsoon and rain usually don't cross mountains ranges and high plateau. The monsoon in India is the strongest on earth, yet it barely reach Tibet. Yea, highlands can also block the rain if they are high enough.

It would be easier, but not the point of the exercise. The other way may get a really nice map that stands up to a cursory glance, but working through this way gives you what "has to be" not what "should" and as she has shown, its pretty darned precise when you're careful.

Sent from my Samsung Centura using Tapatalk.

Pixie
02-13-2014, 12:35 PM
Jalhya, have you considered the hypothesis that that climate simply does not occur in your planet? It's pretty possible. I mean, on Earth it only really happens in 1 out of 7 continents.
Don't force it into being, let your "initial tectonics" dictate the roll of the dice.

Jalyha
02-13-2014, 01:23 PM
@eternalsage :P yep I was being lazy (caught that subtlety!) I'm fixing it now

@Pixie yes, thank you. There are several climates that don't occur here, and you're right, ... but my whole planet is so... idk how to explain it. Everything else about the planet and its' climates suggested there would be tons of monsoon climates, except my calculations about the monsoon climates. So I knew I'd gone wrong somewhere. I kept going anyway, thinking, as you suggest, maybe it's a fluke, and there just aren't any here... but still kept getting signs I should have monsoons out the... well. So. I realized that I'd been using the wrong precipitation map (rainfalls for winter) to get the total precipitation in certain areas. That didn't affect anything else on a real noticeable level because I only *really* needed the total cm of precipitation for monsoon climates.

It *did*, however, dramatically affect the monsoon climates (and because it is a *range* of totals, instead of a single number, it affected not just the orientation, but the *size* of those climates as well!)

So if I'm right *this* time, here's my monsoon climates:

61368

Which makes more sense, taking everything about my planet into consideration. :P

I don't know if I'll bother figuring where the monsoons actually *hit*, but the climates make much more sense :)

Jalyha
02-13-2014, 05:44 PM
Ibala's biomes (with monsoon climates on multiply...)

61372


Still have to go in and do the more detailed areas, and make it pretty and add labels and then, hopefully, be able to make some actual maps of it :)

Lingon
02-14-2014, 03:27 AM
I've never done any of this climate classification so I don't know how helpful I'd be there, but I just wanted to say that I like the shapes in your world very much!

Jalyha
02-14-2014, 09:59 AM
Thanks Lingon!! :)

Climate stuff is nearly done. Should I start a new WIP for the maps, once the world is built, or keep everything here? D:

Jalyha
02-14-2014, 05:15 PM
Mini Update... taking longer than I thought :(

61410

Pixie
02-15-2014, 08:52 AM
Now that looks like a proper climate/biomes map for a realistic planet.

Fractals look realistic most of the time just because they hint a high level of complexity. But they often fall into either being too repetitive or too chaotic. This, on the other hand, is true complexity driven from some simple rules and some starting random conditions.. Well done!

What's next for this world? ;)

Jalyha
02-15-2014, 10:29 AM
Thanks Pixie!!

Well, I still need to rough up the edges on the biomes a little, but I do think this is, essentially, my planet, unless anyone finds some glaring error(s) somewhere.


What's next? Well, the name I accidentally/randomly gave my planet, is Ibala, which happens to be a Zulu word for a wide open swathe of land.

So... I suppose I'm working with a heavy African influence.

I'm pretty excited about this planet and I want to do several maps for the multitude of plots running through my head.

I think I will start (because it will be easiest, since boundaries tend to follow the geography) with a political map showing the different tribes of people on the world.

I'm torn, though, because I kind of want to paint it out, satellite style, first :P

I might work on both.


Then, (because Lingon got the idea stuck in my head) I'll make the major locations and trade routes :)


After that I want to do some purely artistic regional maps.

I'm probably being too ambitious and overestimating myself, but it'll be fun to try! :)

Azelor
02-15-2014, 10:51 AM
Mini Update... taking longer than I thought :(

61410

Is that the rainfall map ?

Jalyha
02-15-2014, 11:17 AM
No... biomes :s

Rainfall was on a prior page

I just hadn't added labels yet...


Why, is it wrong??? D: D: D:

Azelor
02-15-2014, 11:43 AM
It's not wrong, but I have to guess what the colors means.

Dark green: wetlands, tropical...
green: subtropical
middle desaturated green: it's rare, IDK
pale green: semi arid or Mediterranean
khaki ?: steppe or something like that
yellow: desert
brown: alpine

oh and there still 2 oranges like colors and another brown and also a pale blue in the ocean but I'm not sure it's a biome.

Jalyha
02-15-2014, 11:49 AM
Nah, the ocean is just a generic background-ish color I made :P


You're pretty close to perfect with your guesses, but I'm going to add a key so you don't have to guess :P

Jalyha
02-17-2014, 12:59 PM
What am I doing wrong?

I tried to do the bump map thing to elevate my mountains and ended up with this:

61495

Am I missing something simple?

damonmensch
02-18-2014, 12:46 AM
I know this is a tad late in the game, I'm just going to mention this for if anyone else, in the future, decides to use this post as a basic guideline.

The direction your planet rotates, it's distance from it's sun(s), how many suns there are, how many moons there are, and even how many other planets are in that system, and their distances from this one, all would, some more subtly than others, influence not only wind currents, but ocean currents as well, thus influencing biome placement.

Keep in mind, Earth rotates counter-clockwise, causing the sun to rise east, set west, which influences climate direction (predominately west-to-east since surface moves faster than atmosphere.) Our distance to the sun effects average temperatures. The angle of our tilt on the north-south axis effects the temperature extremes, as does the orbital pattern around the sun. Multiple suns would likely compound this effect, especially at certain seasons. Lunar orbit would effect tides and ocean currents, which also effects climate. Again, multiple moons would compound this effect. We also show stronger tides the closer in alignment the planets get with Earth.

An example on how ocean currents effect biomes/climates is England is relatively mild, thus why they rarely get snow in winter, due to the Gulf Stream current. The same current is also why locations on the east coast of the US are more temperate than locations at the same altitude and longitude on the west coast of the US.

rvgriffiths
02-24-2014, 01:31 AM
This map is so pretty and so amazingly in-depth, it's what's inspired me to try mapping for my own story. The work and thought you've put into this is astonishing.

Jalyha
02-24-2014, 04:44 PM
thanks :) I'm glad you like it! I'm sure yours will be better :P

seredemia
02-24-2014, 04:48 PM
Wow, the colours work so well together Jalyha! Really loving this so far. Can't wait to see what it looks like once you've added the labels and everything :)