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Redrobes
08-03-2008, 07:35 AM
I thought that I would throw my hat into the ring again but I thought that I would veer slightly off track from the purist best tile approach and go with something that would be the most useful to the most people - since that is what the idea of 'geomorphic' tiles are all about. Incidentally, where does that word come from w.r.t tiles for RPG ? Shouldn't it be isomorphic or something like that instead ???

I thought about it and I will produce 8 x 7"x7" tiles so that there is a square in the middle of each edge and then you can rotate the tiles for more options. I thought that it would be better to have 9 tiles in a 3x3 grid but then I forgot that you can print these out multiple times and have as many of them as you want to print. I will do a 9th tile but it will be the 'blank' tile with no path on it all all so thats kinda outside of the rules - i.e. its a bonus tile...

I reckon that you could tackle this challenge in many ways of which the hardcore way is to meticulously draw each one but I thought I would present a way to semi-automate the process. This will be useful to me as I could apply it to paths not strictly in a 7x7 grid and therefore push my CWBP stuff along further more easily. Well, we will see if that pops out of this process.

For now - I have just got a bit of normal 5mm gridded paper out and sketched my tiles. I have tried get get one of each type in there. Actually as Gamerprinter has already noted 8 is not very many is it !

So here are some straights, T's, crossroads, clearings, bends to left and then right, an 'S' shape etc and then the last bonus one is blank.

### Latest WIP ###

Redrobes
08-03-2008, 08:10 AM
Now I have chopped and trimmed them out to get individual tiles. Then for each one I have set them as a greyscale, used contrast to get rid of the grid, brushed out the corner marks and resized them to 256x256 each.

### Latest WIP ###

torstan
08-03-2008, 08:26 AM
Surely you are doubling up a little with 1 and 6 (counting left to right from the top left corner)? You could swap one out and put in a different design.

Redrobes
08-03-2008, 08:34 AM
Oh yes :oops: , that one was supposed to bend the other way so that I had a right-hander and a left-hander. I'll just flip that in X & Y and that should fix that.

Thanks...

torstan
08-03-2008, 09:03 AM
Um, can't you do all of your left and right bends with one corner? I'm pretty sure you don't need two corners at all.

Redrobes
08-03-2008, 09:11 AM
Um, can't you do all of your left and right bends with one corner? I'm pretty sure you don't need two corners at all.Actually I am not sure - maybe your right...

Yes - crikey ! Ok, so spare tile then :D Shall I make a small corner and not such a horseshoe type one instead. I could see players wondering why going forwards needs to much back tracking. I'll edit this piccy below in a mo...

There, big bend and small bend. Sorry about that Torstan, I really thought I needed one.

torstan
08-03-2008, 09:59 AM
No problem at all. Glad to be of help.

Redrobes
08-03-2008, 11:21 AM
Now I have blurred them and scaled them each to 2048x2048 in size.

I created a nice noise map and added 40% of the noise map to 60% of the tile. This gives a noisy version of it. Then by using contrast I stretched that at the midpoint back to black and white again.

Now we have the same shape only about 10x the size and with crinkly edges to it.

Redrobes
08-03-2008, 12:29 PM
Ok, so far, so straight forward. But now I am going to show some trick that I have been using for ages and have some special tools to help with but can be done in any paint package if slightly more laboriously. I also noticed that Ghalev said he uses this sort of thing and was talking about using it for hatching so ill start with that as an example but it gets more fun a little later.

So taking our black and white crinkly masks I blur them quite a bit to give the set below and I have also drawn and scanned some sample hatches and then pushed through my seamless tiler script.

Redrobes
08-03-2008, 02:58 PM
So taking different shades of grey we can mask in / blend different textures onto them and you can automate this so ill try to chug out some interesting stuff based on this. This one only looks alright up close up but ill sort out some better stuff later.

ravells
08-04-2008, 11:27 AM
Wow! Original and really good looking! I love the idea!

Redrobes
08-04-2008, 06:48 PM
Thanks, done a wooded path now with the set of textures below. The textures came from CGTextures.com and made seamless using my tiling script. Its really not all that difficult to do.

It seems that the challenge rules have changed and there is no limit on the number of tiles to produce so tell me, what shapes of tile path do you need ?

Also, I am sure you get the idea now - what texture types do you think would be a good idea. I might try cobbles on grass for a city base next.

Steel General
08-04-2008, 07:27 PM
Nice job!

I could see a use for mountain paths (several types including snow covered), swamps, jungles, rolling hills (maybe even something like the Scottish Highlands), etc. etc. etc.

Redrobes
08-04-2008, 07:41 PM
Scottish Highlands y'say aye - ah cun take a wee loook fer yeh !

Snow is always hard. Just looks like all white. Jungle does sound fun tho. Could do with some swampy marshy extra dodgy fenland trails for Thrub too.

Some cobbles BTW. C&C's welcome too - are these any good ?

I will do a round up at the end with all the tile shapes and all styles in multiple zips. Probably huge zips tho... hmmm. Will have to add a grid to all of these too just to keep within the rules and the spirit of the task.

Steel General
08-04-2008, 09:51 PM
I like the cobbles... but I think maybe they need a bit of better blending into the grass?

Redrobes
08-05-2008, 11:23 AM
Steel, I have been on the search for a piccy to show what I was trying to achieve. I thought the grass would be more elevated than the cobbles and there would be a drop so I added that bit of black in as a vertical steep bit. Like this...

http://www.travelhouseuk.co.uk/blog_images/aoraki_mount_new_zealand.jpg

Lots of other grass has it just flat growing over the stone so there is no drop. Do you think that it should have faded more into grass. Not such a neat edge ?

BTW is that the kind of rocky path you want for hills ?

Edit -- needs to be more crinkly on the edge tho doesn't it...

Redrobes
08-05-2008, 01:16 PM
Faffed with it. Shortened the grass near to the edge and made the edge darker. Added smaller cobbles like gravel and made the path more crinkly. Slightly toned down the red in the cobbles too. Maybe its nowhere near to what you had in mind... but anyway - onto snow trodden path in snowdrift. I am expecting this to be a little more difficult but I might be surprised.... hopefully.

Steel General
08-05-2008, 02:24 PM
I like this version much better, the black along the edge to give it some height definitely helps. And yes that photo would be a good example of a rocky path thru hills (or anywhere else I would think).

I wonder if you could put some kind of path or stroke along the edge of the path with some kind of brush to show grass hanging over the edges some? But that may not be worth the effort, and I might just be going overboard. :D

ravells
08-05-2008, 02:25 PM
Excellent faffing!

Redrobes
08-05-2008, 03:16 PM
I wonder if you could put some kind of path or stroke along the edge of the path with some kind of brush to show grass hanging over the edges some? But that may not be worth the effort, and I might just be going overboard. :DThis technique shades by source gray level so where its a shade of gray you paint a bit of texture down so doing dashed lines on the edge is not easy unless you also combine the source with a polka dot type pattern or something like that. The idea is to use these as a base and then put tokens on top which might be characters but could also be trees and bushes too. What I find the hardest with token based apps is the floor. You could draw it with a CAD like interface but it doesn't fit so good with nice textured tokens so being able to quickly create that floor from a simple pattern is really handy. Apart from showing the technique I am also developing a set of textures and scripts to make these esp for the CWBP towns and places like that. Trying to kill two birds with one stone again.

Anyway - snow... what do you think of this one ?

Redrobes
08-05-2008, 05:33 PM
Stream running through a wood.

Steel General
08-05-2008, 05:47 PM
The stream is really good, as is the snow. Nice job!

Redrobes
08-05-2008, 06:16 PM
Thanks Steel ( & Ravs too ). I was going through my photo collection looking for anything that could hack a texture out of when I came across that water. I have some rocky paths in there too and some good heather & bracken so mountain path with that either side maybe...

Now that there is no limit on the number of tiles I reckon some dungeon floor plan is a must too. Another thing I thought of is that because the script chucks out all of the tiles textured like this and you get complete sets, theres some obvious possibilities for stuff like road runs into river and out again where you blend two tiles together before printing them to make a ford.

As usual, more ideas than I have time to try them...

Redrobes
08-05-2008, 07:45 PM
Got some marsh from some pics at my local pond.

Steel General
08-05-2008, 07:51 PM
What about some kind of ruined buildings or something, though that may be pretty tricky to get matched up...These ideas just keep popping into my head. :D

jfrazierjr
08-06-2008, 11:48 AM
It seems that the challenge rules have changed and there is no limit on the number of tiles to produce so tell me, what shapes of tile path do you need?

I would like to see a few more organic looking linkages from tile to tile. Though I would somewhat limit 100% mix and match, having some tiles with paths (exits) from corner to corner would be nice for some variety as well as a few tiles that start in the "center" and end at a corner so you could explain the link ups on other tiles....

BTW, I LOVE your cut in road effect... very nice. As for tokens/stamps/etc, perhaps a few transparent png's to represent various "weeds" that happen to peek up through the cobbles.... Not every road is going to be 100% maintained to perfection...

RPMiller
08-06-2008, 12:16 PM
This is shaping up to be a fantastic set of tiles as well! These are perfect for so many applications and the variety is truly great. Between these paths and GP's dungeon tiles, I think no one will have any problems with encounter maps for some time. Thanks! Oh and I shall hit you with my rep stick while I'm at it. ;)

Redrobes
08-06-2008, 12:28 PM
I am not sure what to do for ruined buildings. I can add a few on top as specials from tokens if you like. If you think that there is some way of doing ruins as a textured thing then I am all ears.

I can do many more tiles. In fact I changed all the tiles today to keep within the grid a bit better but it looks less organic than before. I can do more organic styled ones too that would be off the grid. The game would have to manage where your miniature would fall.

I can also do these tiles with and without a grid. I have put the grid on now although the posts so far shown them without. But heres the thing. I have 17 tiles for about 6 sets. Theres a few more sets to do and many more tiles. Right now each render tile is 2K square giving 9Mb pngs. Does the CG have an FTP for all of these tiles because the standard file attachment system is not going to cope. I'll check on my web server to see how much spare I have. This is ideal for a bit torrent.

I can provide a few shrubs and stuff to break up the monotony of the tiles too. This is where a VTT comes in real handy. Pretty sure your maptool could cope easily with shrubs and stuff like that.

GPs tiles are great - this method sorta works for dungeon tiles but you have to tailor the original masks much more to get a good dungeon. My March entry 'Not yer fathers Krenshar' or whatever it was called was done like this as it was a simple dungeon. To do GP's tiles like this would take as much work in the original masks as it would be for the tile itself. Its not worth it by that point unless you had a lot of them to do and they were similar. Buts its perfect for paths and this kind of thing.

RPMiller
08-06-2008, 01:00 PM
My personal feelings on trying to stick to grids is don't, but those that are forced to use grids would prefer it I'm sure. For grids, I always use hexes to give me more flexibility, but more and more I use gridless movement so that I don't have to be constrained to a grid.

If you could provide both versions that would be the optimal choice I think, but that sounds like a lot of work. If you go with one that fits a grid, but doesn't have a grid, I think that is the perfect compromise allowing those who use grids to do so and those who don't won't worry about it.

Redrobes
08-06-2008, 03:49 PM
I agree, I don't use gridded movement but for this challenge it calls for a grid for miniatures. Providing a grid or no grid is trivial. I change a character or two and then type 'make' again and go off for a cuppa, wait a few minutes for the whole set to get produced again - with no grid. Adding extra tiles is just as easy too.

For me personally, I will be using this where I provide it with a custom set of tiles which make up a custom map and then let it rip. So get a 1K square mask, chop into 16, run script, stitch back together and you have a 8K square map textured. The hardest part is generating the texture maps and tuning the texture engine to provide just the right texturing but once thats done once then its all automated for the future. All the 3D terrain which I have done is all done the same way. That script is quite large tho with about 30 or so texture rules.

The point of me doing this is really to get these scripts together and not really going for the win of the challenge but generating all the tiles should help everybody out a lot I think. I am hoping that people, absolutely anyone, can take these and generate some towns and forest paths etc without having any skill at all. There will be no excuse for not partaking in the CWBP after this ! If we need a special one in the future to fix up a particular point then whoop up mask, run script, done.

The bit I have only just realized is just how to get these tiles out without caning my web space limits. I'll prob set up a page on that space and a web page to catalog them and if it all gets silly then ill look for a better home for them. If people download the ones they need then that would be good. If lots of people all suck the entire lot down in one go then it could get a bit crazy.

They will be the usual creative commons I think.

### Latest WIP ###

Redrobes
08-06-2008, 06:34 PM
I done the mountain path. I thought about jungle but I couldn't figure out what would be significantly different about the jungle than the tree path so far. More creepers etc but thats hard to do with this type of gray to texture thing. So adding some lianas and big rubber plant leaves etc as tokens should do the trick.

This one is showing the new tile style + grid and I tried to get the heather overflowing the grass bank. Not sure if I should lighten the gravel to that chalky white that we saw in the photo. Would that look too odd unless you had seen that photo ? I dunno.

Ascension
08-06-2008, 07:03 PM
That path looks pretty good and as far as the lighter color, it would look odd had I not seen that pic. This one here seems to be ... more ... what's the word... usable, yeah, that's it. A white one would be too specific, in my opinion, so I like this style best. Keep up the good work.

Redrobes
08-06-2008, 07:06 PM
A quick round up. Here is the current set which I think will be enough to cover most situations. Any C&C's about the texturing - we can add more tile shares easily.

Even this one tile and less than 1/4 of it in jpg is 2.5Mb... Hmmm going to be a problem here...

(thanks Ascension)

### Latest WIP ###

Steel General
08-06-2008, 09:12 PM
Outstanding! You definitely seemed to have found a good method for the path edges.

ravells
08-07-2008, 03:28 AM
This is so clever and brilliantly executed! Fab work, Redrobes!

Mrugnak
08-07-2008, 07:31 AM
Redrobes, this is some excellent and handy work you've got here! I hope you find a hosting solution. Have you looked into a Flikr account or Photobucket account? I'm not sure what their maximum image size is for a non-payed account... or for a payed account, for that matter.

Gamerprinter
08-07-2008, 09:34 AM
Redrobes, this is some excellent and handy work you've got here! I hope you find a hosting solution. Have you looked into a Flikr account or Photobucket account? I'm not sure what their maximum image size is for a non-payed account... or for a payed account, for that matter.

Ah, look at Redrobes signature... see Viewing Dale and GeoTerSys, if you click on them they are RR's hosted sites - he has plenty of hosting space to post these tiles.

Usually there is a thumbnail link of all existing challenges in a given month - Redrobes is usually the host for that as well.

Good job, Redrobes - I prefer wilderness tiles myself, but I read the challenge as dungeon tiles, meaning "dungeons", so that's the way I went.

Nice detailing in the ground cover.

GP

Redrobes
08-07-2008, 11:29 AM
Well I checked and I have enough but only just if I put the full size png tiles up. All told they come to 850Mb. What I think ill do is run it at 1400 pix square for 200dpi and try JPG's and see if I can cut that down to a couple of hundred Megs then thats more respectable. Its the upload and download times too. Although I have broadband they really screw the upload speed so for each 150Mb or so, its about an hour. So I will host them but I don't have a dedicated machine on the internet for my stuff. I get a few gigs of allocation from some ISP server out there and thats shared between about 5 web sites.

I should have bought a static IP, a linux box, got Apache running and done it all myself. Then I would have had hundreds of gigs of space and 100 megabit upload speed. In fact, thinking about it, if I did that, I could serve these images directly from the script itself... ah well, live and learn.

Redrobes
08-07-2008, 08:47 PM
I agree with GP that I need some dungeon. Its not in any way going to be as detailed as other dungeon tiles but it will sorta complete the set. Hmm maybe I should have a cave entrance or something so that you can transfer from one type to another. Anyway here is my dungeon texture which is pretty uneventful actually. It only uses two textures (plus black & white).

I checked out the sizes again and it seems that I can keep them at 2048 but JPG takes them down to about 1.5Mb each so thats about 200Mb of tiles so far. Not quite so bad as 850.

RPMiller
08-08-2008, 11:47 AM
Oh! Definitely do a transition tile! That would be awesome. I would imagine a cave entrance but also a "hole in a clearing" type entrance as well.

SeerBlue
08-08-2008, 03:48 PM
Hey Redrobes, your works looking great, as usual, and will come in handy with the FHCO's, Lemur already has plans to use them, but as play tiles for her dinosaurs and model animals to roam about on,,,,,
If you had some me-dem themed tiles I would suggest contacting Monks and see if me-dem could host them:);), I don't know what we have for space but I know I have gigs of map tiles for InsCarto there and oodles being served,,,,just what would an me-dem theme tile look like,, dark jagged rock and twisting paths for mordor, small streams and thick trees for Bombadil's haunts,,,of course then you you have to figure out how to do Gondor tiles, and your head would implode:o
SeerBlue

Redrobes
08-08-2008, 06:43 PM
Oh theres enough head exploding in me-dem without any more incentive to put the ole noggin in a vice and start turning the screw. I just don't know how were gonna deal with that beast.

Part of the idea of doing these tiles is basically to have some pre done texture scripts ready for more use. The stone in the dungeon set was lifted from that Krenshar challenge which was done in the same way. Using custom maps I can whoop up textured versions in seconds now. So theres scope to use it on me-dem or adapt a close one to fit. Could do a brilliant lava one for mount doom... mmmm chewy !

I was playing with the tiles now. Got the script to make VMI's and icons out of them automatically so I can just load em up once its finished.

I think ill make that hole in the ground for getting from one set to another. You can always blend them in a paint package too. Two texture tiles plus a heavy blurred mask and that should do it. Or two layers and use the eraser tool.

Although this pic looks rubbish up close compared to the original set it gives the idea of the linking.

For this challenge ill do a tree, bush and hole in the ground or whatever and call it a day. Theres millions of tokens to grab to flush them out more as required. The sum of the tiles in JPG format is 130Mb so ill be ok hosting them for a while.

Steel General
08-08-2008, 10:30 PM
OK...clue a brother in...

me-dem? Obviously "Middle Earth", but whats the "dem" stand for?

SeerBlue
08-08-2008, 11:05 PM
Ohh, sorry, I forget acronyms are really just nonsense if you don't use the whole name first. Middle Earth Digital Elevation Model Project, and it is much easier to post a link than explain it, so here is a link (http://www.me-dem.org/).

I feel the need to waffle on about it, but I have another interview in a bit (who does interviews for employment at 1045 pm anyway, by the time it starts I will have been awake for 18 hours, and not to cheery ), so I will just say, Middle Earth, Terrain, Maps, Tolkien, and more terrain.
SeerBlue

Steel General
08-09-2008, 08:16 AM
Cool! Thanks, I'll check it out.

Redrobes
08-11-2008, 05:40 PM
I am getting close to a finish now. I have all the tiles with a grid uploaded. I may upload the non grid ones and *replace* the current set so if you want your tiles with a grid then grab them in the next few weeks. I will have gridded ones here for a while - at least until challenge & voting end.

Actually saying that the hatching set did not have a grid on them. All the rest do.

There are eight sets Cobbles, Dungeon, Hatching, Marsh, MtnPath, Snow, WoodPath, WoodStream. They are all zipped set of 18 tiles. All are JPG so there is some loss in them from the pure version but all are 2048 which is nearly 300dpi. They range from 13 to 26Mb except hatching which is 7Mb.

Cobbles (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/Cobbles.zip)
Dungeon (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/Dungeon.zip)
Hatching (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/Hatching.zip)
Marsh (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/Marsh.zip)
MtnPath (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/MtnPath.zip)
Snow (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/Snow.zip)
WoodPath (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/WoodPath.zip)
WoodStream (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/WoodStream.zip)

I will add just one or two extra token type additions but thats mostly it.

Just to note I would like to declare these "Creative Commons - Non Commercial - Share alike - attribution". So spread them about a bit. And lets see any photos of them printed and used !!!

Redrobes
08-11-2008, 07:25 PM
A hole in the ground. (Looks like a purple worm or Xorn type...)

I have attached both the color and alpha parts. You will need to put them together to make up the token. Should be easy in PS or Gimp.

Example after that is done on the mountain path tile.

Redrobes
08-11-2008, 08:29 PM
Just whooped up some trees for ya. Had to model one in 3D. A bit tedious but its alright I think.

Redrobes
08-11-2008, 08:56 PM
And finally, archetypal pit to match the dungeon floor texture.

Steel General
08-12-2008, 08:31 AM
Good stuff all around. :)

Mrugnak
08-12-2008, 06:03 PM
There are eight sets Cobbles, Dungeon, Hatching, Marsh, MtnPath, Snow, WoodPath, WoodStream. They are all zipped set of 18 tiles. All are JPG so there is some loss in them from the pure version but all are 2048 which is nearly 300dpi. They range from 13 to 26Mb except hatching which is 7Mb.

These are really great. I want to say thanks again for doing them.

Quick question on scaling, they're not exactly 300 dpi - so for purposes of scaling one inch to X pixels... what is the resolution you were working at? I'm getting 292.57142(lots of numbers) which is an awkward number.

Redrobes
08-12-2008, 07:02 PM
These are really great. I want to say thanks again for doing them.

Quick question on scaling, they're not exactly 300 dpi - so for purposes of scaling one inch to X pixels... what is the resolution you were working at? I'm getting 292.57142(lots of numbers) which is an awkward number.Thanks, yeah the dpi is a little awkward but you can normally set up your printer so that the print its exactly 7 inches. If thats a little difficult then set up a custom page size of 7 inches and print to fit page. Or I guess at extreme end, print a few off and scale it so that the grid is 1 inch by using a ruler which is the most accurate way of calibrating it. At the end of the day the current value is only 2.5% off of 300dpi so assuming the printer is perfect then 1 inch is going to be about 0.6mm or so out which is not a lot really. You ought to be able to ask the printer for 292dpi in any case and it should scale it right. The printer will scale the image no matter what you do to it because very few printers are natively exactly 300dpi so its all just numbers - 300 exactly is no better or worse than 292. As long as you have enough to show good res then you should be fine.

If you have any printer trouble then post and explain and we can sort it out.

Gamerprinter
08-12-2008, 11:23 PM
These are really great. I want to say thanks again for doing them.

Quick question on scaling, they're not exactly 300 dpi - so for purposes of scaling one inch to X pixels... what is the resolution you were working at? I'm getting 292.57142(lots of numbers) which is an awkward number.

Take it from an expert - I run two companies in graphics and digital printing (two if you include Gamer Printshop.)

Most photographic quality printing can be achieved at 200 dpi. Only the most detailed maps with small text labels present a problem. The important issue for color is color gamut or the range of color. A 48 bit color image is a far higher quality photo, but still only requires 200 dpi to accurate print.

Small text requires high resolution, like 600 dpi.

I've printed huge Campaign Cartographer files with teeny, tiny text - they were the only blurry issue on the map. Everything else was perfect.

So photo images or terrain maps created at higher resolutions are generally unnecessary.

GP

Mrugnak
08-13-2008, 07:53 AM
*shifty look*

I was considering them for a virtual table top, actually, which means that my printer's automatic scaling isn't any help under the circumstances.

MapTools draws a grid (Square or hexagonal) based on the pixel dimensions you give it - and it only accepts integers, not floating points. 292 will be close "enough" probably, they're small tiles - I'm always a bit leery of being off, however, because on a larger map, all those decimal places end up with your grid being off at the edges. :shock:

torstan
08-13-2008, 08:17 AM
For maptool you really don't want to be using 300px squares as it will eat all your memory and choke. I'd suggest that you scale them to 50 px squares. The best way to do this is to decide how many squares you want to a side on these images, say 7 as that's the number if squares on the blank tile. Now that means you want 350px by 350px tiles. Go into Image->Scale Image in Gimp and resize the image to exactly those dimensions. Now set up a 50px grid in maptool and drop these in as stamps with snap to grid turned on. They should line up perfectly. If you want them to be more detailed go up to 100px per square and make them 700px by 700px. You don't need to worry about dpi, but you do need to resize them for maptool.

Hope that helps.

Good work by the way Redrobes. These are great! Definitely swiping them for my image library.

Redrobes
08-13-2008, 08:21 AM
Ahh, Ok, well I am using them on my ViewingDale VTT too and they work out just fine too. The bit map sample was from that. I didn't know about the integer DPI bit on maptool - I thought there was a grid align mode thingy (not being super experienced with it).

In that case, best thing is just to resample them to 2100 pix in X&Y. You could use GIMP, ImageMagic, PS, PSP, IrfanView or whatever to do it. Almost any type of resample will do including pixel or nearest neighbor in this case.

If you start running out of RAM with them then you could go down to 1400 but I have tried that and it didn't look so good when you look at the images close up.

torstan
08-13-2008, 08:27 AM
Yep, maptool sticks to integer grid sizes. It also works best on 50px or 100px grids so I really do suggest you go well below a 200dpg (dots per grid?) resolution. I have to say that I normally have a 20-30 grid wide view on my screen for maptool games so losing close in resolution isn't so much of a bind.

Redrobes
08-13-2008, 08:37 AM
Crikey, these are 7x7 tiles so that would be 350 or 700 pixels across. That would be a bit of a shame as it would drop a lot of the detail. Perhaps it would be better to have a just a couple of tiles down and remove some and add others in sequence to keep the memory down.

torstan
08-13-2008, 09:20 AM
Seriously, most maps look pretty good at that resolution within maptool.

However I'll admit that I tend to use maptool for single large maps, and it is this overall image size that gives those limits. It may well be possible to use 200px/grid tiles without a performance hit, but I haven't tried it yet. I'll have a shot with one of the recent stable builds and see what I find.

I say 50px per grid because that seems to be a pretty good base level of detail for gaming and allows for lots of squares on a 2000px square map - the largest single image size I'm happy to throw at maptool without it killing my players machines. I have a couple running 256Mb RAM machines so even 2000px maps are a stretch for them.

Redrobes
08-13-2008, 09:48 AM
A 2K square image is 4 megapixels which is 12Mb with 24bit RGB and that uncompressed. So I can understand why having 16 of these might start giving an issue but an app ought to be able to have a 2K backdrop map no problem.

If you had a 4Kx3K image then that would be 36Mb. If that was 21x14 squares then thats about 200dpi with 3x2 tiles. It should be able to cope with that surely.

Anyway - here is a DPI image to show what you get for your megabyte... DPI shown on the top in blue.

Lord
08-13-2008, 10:01 AM
24bit color depth is really unnecessary. 8bit is perfectly fine for almost any use. It will reduce your file size and ram requirements considerably. Unless you have a huge gamut of color with some hi-res shading and gradients, 8 bit is your friend.

Gamerprinter
08-13-2008, 10:04 AM
Redrobes, my tiles are 100 ppi

From all my visits to RPTools and discussions with RPMiller, I"ve come to the conclusion that many will be requiring only 50 ppi, but some people (RPMiller) wants 200 ppi, as MapTools allow you to zoom in and only 200 ppi really shows closeup detail well.

However, a general consideration is how long it takes to load a new map. I've created some early VT maps at 200 ppi, PNG and they were 10 - 12 MB. I was told that the expected file size should only be 1 MB for easiest downloading for most VT users. This just isn't possible for 200 ppi.

Since some users desire a higher res file, but don't want to pay the download hit, I've compromised to 100 ppi. My Dungeon Tiles are around 1.6 MB that's close enough to 1 MB for my taste.

GP

Redrobes
08-13-2008, 10:34 AM
Lord, I think in general terms I disagree but in this case the tiles have a lot of random detail so you would get away with it. I did a tutorial discussion about the tech side of images which covered 8bpp and stuff so for my views on that I think that thread goes into more detail on why it can be good and where its not so good.

GP, I think 300dpi is top end. There really isn't much need to go higher. From a high dpi you can resample lower so its always nice to have too much. 200dpi should be adequate esp for printing and viewing at 1:1 scale. I would say that 100 is not enough for printing but you could get away with it for a VTT. But 50 seems to me absurdly low.

The file load time is odd in this case. I thought that the idea was that everybody would have all the tiles and that its the use and arrangement of them that makes the map. Wouldn't it be easier to get all of the players all of the tiles and then make up the map from using these images with no image download ?

torstan
08-13-2008, 10:54 AM
There are two issues with VTT file-size at work here. Firstly there is the load time. Given that you need to upload the files to all players you don't want the file-size to be too large. However, at this stage you can make sure the files are small using compression of some form. If the images are jpgs then it shouldn't be too tricky to keep them under a reasonable limit. For example I use a 1MBps line at home but it uploads at 25kb, now 10Mb to each of four players is going to take a while.

Yes you can give the players the tiles beforehand, but its probably best to allow for the GM going 'oh crap - I don't have a dungeon, but I do have tiles in my library' and dropping them down in game and transferring them in real time. Obviously once they've been transferred once then they are done.

The other issue is the memory they take up in RAM. I don't know how other programmes do it, but maptool decompresses the images into memory. In this case, the format and compression of the original file is irrelevant (though I guess the with/without transparency question remains pertinent). Now one map may well not take up too much memory, but a map with tokens and objects on top of it as well will frequently run up into a hundred or so MB of RAM usage. Now given the 256MB RAM people need some of that to run their operating system, a hundred or so MB of RAM is a weight to carry. Now I'm certain other VTTs do it with less of an overhead than maptool, but thems the results I know of from playing and don't notice much of a prettiness hit.

I agree that given that the main drive of this challenge is printed tiles, 300dpi seems a good upper end. That then allows the VTT crowd to resize in nice easy increments. Sorry for derailing the thread a little, but I wanted to be a bit clearer on resizing for VTT use where maptool is involved.

RPMiller
08-13-2008, 11:06 AM
I'm perfectly happy with 100 ppi images.

Since I do everything electronically I don't care about dpi at all. I only care about the ppi of an image and if that image starts off as a nice integer it makes it incredible simply and efficient to use.

Gamerprinter
08-13-2008, 11:09 PM
GP, I think 300dpi is top end. There really isn't much need to go higher. From a high dpi you can resample lower so its always nice to have too much. 200dpi should be adequate esp for printing and viewing at 1:1 scale. I would say that 100 is not enough for printing but you could get away with it for a VTT. But 50 seems to me absurdly low.

Luckily for me my tiles are saved in Xara format, being vector, I can export to whatever format at whatever resolution (up to 300 ppi), since within Xara, though display resolution is 96 ppi, Xara files aren't resolution dependant.

With the same map file I can create 300 dpi print-ready versions, without having to redo or rescale anything. Its simply an export option as needed.

I generally create in inches, not pixels, working my scale per inch - once complete I export to appropriate resolution and format.

GP

RobA
08-14-2008, 02:33 PM
Luckily for me my tiles are saved in Xara format, being vector, I can export to whatever format at whatever resolution (up to 300 ppi), since within Xara, though display resolution is 96 ppi, Xara files aren't resolution dependant.

With the same map file I can create 300 dpi print-ready versions, without having to redo or rescale anything. Its simply an export option as needed.

I generally create in inches, not pixels, working my scale per inch - once complete I export to appropriate resolution and format.

GP

Can you clarify this? I assume you are using image based fills, which would have a resolution limit, no?

-Rob A>

Redrobes
08-14-2008, 03:17 PM
Theres two different types of use of the word 'resolution' going on here. Generally resolution is just pixels width/height of image or less often pixels per inch but what your referring to is the resolution of the pattern in the image or where the word image is the light and dark bit and not the pixel container computery parlance. If you had a very large pixel width array containing a blurry pattern thats high image resolution (computer parlance) but low spatial image resolution (real world pattern).

My patterns are blocks of repeating textures - usually done at 1024 square but sometimes 2048. In my tiles the trees were not quite big enough so they were stretched quite a bit so that the spatial image is not as high as the file image resolution. Although the JPG artifacts destroy the fine detail, the actual tree bits were not as good as some of the others bits, especially those bits where the texture had to be scaled down.

So in true spatial image resolution of the final tiles, the textures that make them up are of mixed resolution. The other option that you could have made tiles from is that the textures were generated procedurally in which case you would hope that they are generated at the required maximum amount to make the tiles. Terragen and Fractal Terrains and others are like this. The textures from CGTextures.com (which we both source from) are pretty high res (both in terms of pixel width and spatial frequency) which is great so that its very likely that any tiles have components that are higher than the tile.

So its likely that the textures are higher spatial resolution than the final tile but I think that GP was referring to the pixels per inch type version of the term.

Gamerprinter
08-14-2008, 04:36 PM
Can you clarify this? I assume you are using image based fills, which would have a resolution limit, no?

-Rob A>

Its true the fills are image based, so I general only use as high a resolution of image file to start with, so reduced sizes isn't a problem. However, there is a maximum level, especially regarding large format printing.

So it is an issue. Just insure you are using large scale, hi res images to start with, everything else is vector so resize/rescale isn't as much an issue.

But Xara isn't limitless... :arrow:

GP

Mrugnak
02-02-2012, 12:09 PM
There are eight sets Cobbles, Dungeon, Hatching, Marsh, MtnPath, Snow, WoodPath, WoodStream. They are all zipped set of 18 tiles. All are JPG so there is some loss in them from the pure version but all are 2048 which is nearly 300dpi. They range from 13 to 26Mb except hatching which is 7Mb.

Cobbles (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/Cobbles.zip)
Dungeon (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/Dungeon.zip)
Hatching (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/Hatching.zip)
Marsh (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/Marsh.zip)
MtnPath (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/MtnPath.zip)
Snow (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/Snow.zip)
WoodPath (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/WoodPath.zip)
WoodStream (www.viewing.ltd.uk/Temp/CG/GeomorphicTiles/WoodStream.zip)

I will add just one or two extra token type additions but thats mostly it.

Just to note I would like to declare these "Creative Commons - Non Commercial - Share alike - attribution". So spread them about a bit. And lets see any photos of them printed and used !!!

I've lost my copies and of course they've moved off of RR's temp area on his site. With the CC-NC-SA-A license, is someone perchance rehosting these somewhere?