PDA

View Full Version : Google Chrome



RPMiller
09-04-2008, 02:34 PM
So has anyone else been using Google Chrome besides me? What do you think about it so far?

If you have no idea what I'm talking about go here:
http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/features.html

So far, it works very well. There are just a couple bugs I've discovered so far, but they are very minor. It does seem to be living up to all of its promises thus far.

Robbie
09-04-2008, 02:44 PM
Yup...I started using it off and on couple days ago...I like it, but its missing some things...like the ability to use your middle mouse button click to free scroll around on a page or image.

Also, I don't know how to get to your specified homepage or the built in homepage.

RPMiller
09-04-2008, 02:50 PM
You have to tell it that you have a homepage and then you specify what it is. It is under options from the "hammer button".

I'm hoping that since it is Beta, they'll get a lot of those little differences hashed out quickly. I think a lot of FireFox users are already sending in reports about the differences so that is a good thing.

Steel General
09-04-2008, 04:05 PM
I think I'll wait for an official "release version"

Ascension
09-04-2008, 04:41 PM
Google has enough of their junk on my pc without me deliberately adding more. Firefox is starting to bug me so it might be worth a look.

ravells
09-04-2008, 04:43 PM
I love firefox too much to switch...I saw the youtube ads, it does look pretty nice!

Sagenlicht
09-04-2008, 06:41 PM
I am using Firefox 3 and quite happy with it. Still got some bugs, e.g uploading a file to this site gives me white text on white background at the file selection window but heh, I am used to the fox :)

Turgenev
09-04-2008, 09:26 PM
I might check it out eventually. I'm rather attached to my Firefox browser though. It would take a lot to get me to switch (adding add-ons would be a start).

JoeyD473
09-04-2008, 11:40 PM
I downloaded it, but havn't actually used it yet. Same with IE8

RPMiller
09-05-2008, 12:01 PM
So far from what I'm seeing, Chrome is extremely similar to FireFox. So similar that I'm wondering just how much of it may be straight from the FireFox build. It would make sense since Google is very involved with Mozilla and funds the project. I think with the first release version I'll be a full convert, but I need to see all the things I love about FF get added into it first.

RobA
09-05-2008, 12:47 PM
So far from what I'm seeing, Chrome is extremely similar to FireFox. So similar that I'm wondering just how much of it may be straight from the FireFox build. It would make sense since Google is very involved with Mozilla and funds the project. I think with the first release version I'll be a full convert, but I need to see all the things I love about FF get added into it first.

I think the big changes are under the covers.

The "big deal" is two items:

->the new java vm - much faster

->each page/tab runs in its on instance of the browser in its own thread.

-Rob A>

Redrobes
09-05-2008, 01:21 PM
I think I am too old and crumbly too not be skeptical about having the same company run too many things. So OS and IE... shudder. But I don't like browser and search engine the same either so it would take something special to make me change from firefox right at this point.

su_liam
09-05-2008, 01:23 PM
Javascript VM.

Or maybe they've come up with a better Java VM as well? Maybe, but I doubt it.

I'm pretty happy with Safari, but with an average of 15 or 20 tabs gradually leaking memory, I am interested in the multi-process design. The system usually does a better job handling memory fragmentation between processes than most apps do internally.

I'll have a look when the mac version comes out. By that time the user-experience should be richer anyway.

RobA
09-05-2008, 02:22 PM
Javascript VM.

Or maybe they've come up with a better Java VM as well? Maybe, but I doubt it.


my bad...

-Rob A>

RPMiller
09-05-2008, 02:28 PM
If you follow the link I posted it takes you to the "comic strip" that walks through all the features and reasons for everything they are doing. It is really informative. :)

Regarding Safari, you'll notice that Chrome is being built using the same toolkit that Safari is built with...

Sagenlicht
09-05-2008, 02:47 PM
I think the big changes are under the covers.

The "big deal" is two items:

->the new java vm - much faster

->each page/tab runs in its on instance of the browser in its own thread.

-Rob A>

Hmm having each tab as its own process is a huge benefit imo, but well I guess it wont take forever to get that for the fox as well :)

RPMiller
09-05-2008, 02:58 PM
Hmm having each tab as its own process is a huge benefit imo, but well I guess it wont take forever to get that for the fox as well :)
Unfortunately I do not believe it would be possible unless they rewrote FF from the ground up. At least that is what it looks like when you go through the Chrome comic strip to see how they were able to implement that.

However, the great thing is that FF's community is awesome and certainly capable of doing something like that, but I doubt it would get done as quickly as the various "fixes" for Chrome to make it like FF. It will definitely be interesting to see where this leads to say the least.

Redrobes
09-05-2008, 08:23 PM
Would somebody explain why having each page run in its own process as opposed to a separate thread is a good idea ?

Redrobes
09-05-2008, 08:54 PM
Ok so I thought what the heck lets have a little read about whats new in this thing. Here is a version of the google comic which seems to try to explain why they are doing it the way they think is best.

http://www.gamesforthebrain.com/google-chrome/

The problem I have is with each page I read all I can think is - thats bollocks... yeah and thats bollocks too. For example. They say that having each tab in a process means you can zap the process and get total clean up. OK agreed. But the reason why they seem to need that is because they say that opening and closing tabs in threads leads to memory fragmentation. No it doesn't - at least its no worse than memory fragmentation via threads. And leaked memory ? Get a memory leak checker ffs. What the argument boils down to is this:- A crap implementation in a process space would be better than an equally crap one implemented as threads. The idea that if implemented as threaded means that a bad tab locks the browser seems nonsensical to me. A runaway memory hog thread is no worse than a runaway memory hog process. The only advantage you have is that you can force shutdown a process from the process manager and keep the other browsers open. But you could just as easily implement another thread looking for shutdown requests and force close a thread too which amounts to the same thing with the OS + process explorer being that extra thread. The only genuine advantage I can see from using multiple processes is that from a security point of view you might possibly be able to find out what memory locations another threaded tab is at within the same process and look at it. Slightly more difficult with a different process. Using separate processes is not a bad thing its just not the panacea that they seem to be extolling. End of the day I doubt anyone will notice any difference because of it.

RobA
09-05-2008, 08:56 PM
Would somebody explain why having each page run in its own process as opposed to a separate thread is a good idea ?

AFAIK, (but IANAE) 'cause if you have a poorly behaved page (nasty javascript, etc) that makes synchronous calls, or even crashes, the open pages will not be affected.

-Rob A>

Robbie
09-05-2008, 10:38 PM
http://www.gamesforthebrain.com/google-chrome/9
This to me is amazing. Thats really thinking ahead...Pretty sharp.

Redrobes
09-06-2008, 07:11 AM
http://www.gamesforthebrain.com/google-chrome/9
This to me is amazing. That's really thinking ahead...Pretty sharp.But that's just basic regression testing. Everyone has access to thousands of web pages. I would have expected all of the devs for all of the browsers to be doing this. I have worked in several companies which built rendering engines and my GTS is another one too and in all cases there is a set of scripts or standard inputs with known output to reference and check that changes are not destroying previous work. What google have is some automated testing which is backed onto their build system. Every large company software does it this way.

For example there is a Direct3D reference engine written in software so that all changes to DX9 and DX10 etc can be compared against the reference to check that its correct.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb219625(VS.85).aspx

OpenGL has a set of conformance tests with known results - see 2.160 here
http://www.opengl.org/resources/faq/technical/gettingstarted.htm

The cartoon read to me like this one after another page. Nothing they say is untrue but all the inferences were misleading or not true at all. Because google is using regression testing against reference renders of pages does not mean that MS, Apple or Mozilla is not.

delgondahntelius
09-06-2008, 07:13 AM
lol... RR They really got under your skin, huh? .... :D

Redrobes
09-06-2008, 07:38 AM
lol... RR They really got under your skin, huh? .... :D
:D yeah !

Don't get me wrong, I like google and they are very good at what they do but I don't like adverts in general especially these weasel type ones.

I suppose fundamentally I don't see why they need to write a new browser. Nothing that they have said has made me think - ok well it is about time that was fixed. There's something going on that they are not saying and its obvious because of all the things that they have said to push it are irrelevant. Given what you could do with a browser, I don't trust them this time. In the past I have because you got given what you asked for or what you did not block. With control of the browser you aint gonna know any more what your asking for. And I don't like the idea of the same company doing the asking and the providing.

Edit -- tell you what, ill be a lot less skeptical when I see 'Adblock' for Chrome that effectively blocks google ads.

Valarian
09-06-2008, 07:49 AM
I suppose fundamentally I don't see why they need to write a new browser.
The cynic in me says that the release of the new browser is so that Google can continue to read our web trail and hence keep its advertising revenues. Microsoft have announced that IE8 will have a feature that will remove your web trail as you go (or at least make it readable only to Microsoft :P). I suppose Google want their own browser so that they can do the same thing :D.

delgondahntelius
09-06-2008, 07:55 AM
ad block.. lol that is a good one... i'd like to see that too...

Maybe they are pushing because they know they don't have anything better to offer than FF, but want to make it seem like it offers more.

I'm pretty loyal when it comes to browsers, hell, I just converted to FF a few months ago and got it tweaked to the way I like it... I don't see me converting to GC anytime in the near future.. regardless of their hype :D

RPMiller
09-06-2008, 11:26 AM
:D yeah !

Don't get me wrong, I like google and they are very good at what they do but I don't like adverts in general especially these weasel type ones.

I suppose fundamentally I don't see why they need to write a new browser. Nothing that they have said has made me think - ok well it is about time that was fixed. There's something going on that they are not saying and its obvious because of all the things that they have said to push it are irrelevant. Given what you could do with a browser, I don't trust them this time. In the past I have because you got given what you asked for or what you did not block. With control of the browser you aint gonna know any more what your asking for. And I don't like the idea of the same company doing the asking and the providing.

Edit -- tell you what, ill be a lot less skeptical when I see 'Adblock' for Chrome that effectively blocks google ads.
Regarding the separate memory space you may have missed the point of Chrome. Note that the idea here is to run applications through chrome such as OpenOffice, GIMP, etc.

In other words, Chrome is taking the place of the OS essentially and becoming the desktop. I mentioned it on a different forum, but will mention it here as it is pertinent. About 15 years ago I attended an "exclusive" seminar that M$ put on for certain people in the industry. They went through the progression of Windows and where it was headed. Essentially the final result was a Browser based OS. We have been seeing that happen slowly over the years with additions such as Active Desktop and now Gadgets as well as the integration of IE into Windows Explorer (or is that visa versa? ;) ). I believe that that is exactly what Google is attempting to do with Chrome. I belive you are already on to it based on your comments, but may have not fully read between the lines. Your assessments are definitely spot on, but reevaluate them with the thinking that Chrome is actually an OS instead of a browser and I think you'll see exactly what is going on and where Google is heading with this.

If you really step back and look at it, it makes a whole heck of a lot of sense from the computer illiterate perspective. Remove all the knowledge we have of computers and put yourselves in grandma and grandpas shoes. These new fangled 'puters are good for only two things, well four but three is technically part of one and four is silly, and those two things are clicking through the interwebs and that electronic mailing thing the kids all rave about.

So if you are going to go after serious market share and still provide what the savvy folks need wouldn't building an OS that addresses the needs of the majority without losing the techno savvy make sense? I think it does, and I think that this is what Google and M$ are going after but The Big G has just made a major breakthrough in the creation of Chrome. In addition, they'll be able to continue an advertising stream indefinitely and giving away a browser but reaping piles of advertising revenue because of it offsets the cost of development.

Now if we all got really smart and wanted to stop the madness we would not only throw in AdBlock and such, but we would actually teach everyone we know to stop clicking online ads, spam messages, and any other form of online advertising to show advertisers there is no return on their investment. Unfortunately their investment is mere pennys so even that is likely to not serve as a deterant thus we are stuck with advertising.

This entire post above is entirely based on conjecture, a little inside knowledge, and my personal opinions so don't assume there are any real facts there and treat it simply as food for thought. ;)

Redrobes
09-06-2008, 12:33 PM
Well putting it like that, it certainly shines some light on it a bit. Naturally opening a full on process for each launch of application is the right thing to do. That finally makes some sense. All the talk of process for a web page tab is pure diversion.

I can see that one day each of us will have to decide whether to go down the tech / nerd route with Linux + open source + Creative Commons etc or go the dumbed down route of google / MS and probably Apple. Right now you can run MS and Apple and keep some semblance of control - the gap is not all that wide but widening. Even Vista was too far and XP will be the last MS OS for me.

The internet and all hobby computing is being pushed in the same way that music, film and TV have gone. Its pretty grim but I think that there's some strong resistance to it. I think its fair to say that the nerds are winning this one. Historically tho, it would seem that Chrome would be very popular amongst many people in the same way that box office sales are still high enough in absolute terms.

Thanks RPM I think that bit of insight is the bit I was missing in all of this.

RPMiller
09-06-2008, 12:49 PM
I'm glad I could actually provide some insight for you for once considering all the insights you've given me. :)

I agree with your assessment as well about the tech gap, but I think there is a decent grass roots movement now within the school systems here in the US to really and truly start shortening it. My kids have learned a fair amount in school and they have taken actual computer classes in elementary so even without having an IT dad they've learned far more than I did at their age.

I think in this case the "no child left behind" strategy is working, but unfortunately it is also quickly becoming the "forget about seniors and adults though" strategy. Based solely on what I see both at work and among relatives. In fact, I've begun a slow moving side project to build a website for teaching the basics of computer technology and use with an emphasis on office applications and the internet without getting all techno babble on people in the hope that I can educate more folks out there.