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Gamerprinter
09-22-2008, 03:02 AM
Thought I would experiment on creating a mayan complex in 3D, in a 3/4 view rather than top-down. The beauty of 3D is difficult to see in a top-down, though the angle is still pretty steep, rather than true 3/4 view. :idea:

Anyway, the first element of my mayan experiment - a ziggurat. I want to create several ziggurats and other temple structures, a ball court, some surrounding walls, appropriate to a mayan complex, as well as some homes.

I've been to Cancun seen some smaller mayan ruins there, as well as Chichinitza and another ziggurat south of Cancun, about 5 years ago. As well as seen ruins of a mayan home - foundation only, but understand above the stone foundation was basically a wooden hut with thatched roof. I'll also be creating some palms and other plant life, and perhaps even a "cenote" or waterfilled sinkhole, as mayan rivers are subterrainean only with sinkholes exposing access for drinking water and sacrefices.

At this point, I'm not sure whether just to create a 3/4 view map or map objects in 3/4 view, so you can "assemble" a Mayan complex yourself in your preferred program with pieces...

Thoughts?

GP

Mayan Ziggurat: 540 kb 100 ppi PNG

PS: I now think I should have posted this thread in the city/town WIP forum, rather than the building/structure WIP, CL's please move this...

NeonKnight
09-22-2008, 03:30 AM
Well, first, as an amateur archeaologist (it was my Major in University with a preference for New World: Aztec, Olmec, Incan, Mayan, Pueblo etc) it's too.....grey ;)

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080207-maya-temple.html

The temple, even not gleaming, were painted, often with Ochre, and other deep earth shades, with Bright Ornamentation, painted reliefs of the gods, feathered serpents (Kulkulkan/Quetzalcoatl), jaguars, etc

The grey temples we are familiar with, is the modern, weathered temple with no upkeep. The paint has washed off, the temples were usually overgrown and dug back out from the reclaimed jungles.

So, color aside I like the Temple.

Now, normally, I would be averse to 3/4 views for maping purposes, as buildings would be limited to a N/S/E/W orientation, and no variation to that, except for the whole, most MesoAmerican cities did follow that sort of orientation/city planing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teotihuacan

http://archaeology.asu.edu/teo/intro/citymp1.htm

http://archaeology.asu.edu/teo/intro/citymp2.htm

Gamerprinter
09-22-2008, 04:04 AM
The temple, even not gleaming, were painted, often with Ochre, and other deep earth shades, with Bright Ornamentation, painted reliefs of the gods, feathered serpents (Kulkulkan/Quetzalcoatl), jaguars, etc

The grey temples we are familiar with, is the modern, weathered temple with no upkeep. The paint has washed off, the temples were usually overgrown and dug back out from the reclaimed jungles.

So, color aside I like the Temple.


Good to know, NK - I hadn't realized you were an archeaology major. Simulating the gleam of mica in the ochre and brightly colored Kulkulkan relief is something I could try. It will take some careful texturing to look right, though.

Initially I was planning to create a jungle enshrouded temple complex ruin, but the more I think about it, the better to simulate a mayan structure under current habitation - or in "like new condition," so I ought to get the colors right, shouldn't I.

I was planning not to do something of the scale of Teotihucan, rather more like the more obscure and smaller sites in the southern Yucatan, around the Mexico/Belize border area. Something with a population of only several thousand.

Regarding the 3/4 view, I guess my goal is not truly a "map" so much as an aerial view over the temple complex, as you might find in an illustration site overview. However, then I can create true top down battlemap of corridors within structures located in the 3/4 view complex map.

I'll check out those links again, thanks for the tip, NK!

GP

RobA
09-22-2008, 11:01 AM
Moved.

Another suggestion (if possible) would be to render this in true isometric projection. That would allow tiling of the structures.

-Rob A>

Gamerprinter
09-22-2008, 12:50 PM
I think I should create 3 versions of this, then.

1. A brand-new Mayan temple complex using NK's suggested mica colors.

2. A ruined Mayan temple complex in grey with surrounding jungle

3. A true isometric version version so you can tile it.

I'll start doing that this afternoon.

GP

RPMiller
09-22-2008, 01:00 PM
I think I should create 3 versions of this, then.

1. A brand-new Mayan temple complex using NK's suggested mica colors.

2. A ruined Mayan temple complex in grey with surrounding jungle

3. A true isometric version version so you can tile it.

I'll start doing that this afternoon.

GP
I can't wait to see it GP! This sounds like an awesome project. If you could also do the top down views as you go, people could toss this into a VT and use the iso view as the portrait image and the top down to play on. That would really rock.

Steel General
09-22-2008, 01:55 PM
I'll start doing that this afternoon.

GP

So that means you'll be done by tomorrow, right? :D

Sagenlicht
09-22-2008, 04:59 PM
Sounds promsing GP, looking forward to it :)

Ascension
09-22-2008, 05:42 PM
He moves at the speed of light...it's probably already collecting dust somewhere :)

Gamerprinter
09-23-2008, 02:16 AM
Ok, did some more experimentation...

Trying a topdown in 3D, as I figured, just didn't do such a hot job (first image below is 3D topdown, low res and no color JPG)

The second image is an attempt and decorative texturing, as per NK's tip. I can try harder, but this is difficult to achieve in 3D. I did this in the same model as the first ziggurat post #1. (both maps below are transparent PNG files)

As far as texturing goes, I see hieroglyphics and Kukulkan relief carvings to be on the face of the walls, not on the top walking surfaces. Am I wrong in thinking this, NK? So I didn't texture colorful detail on the top surfaces.

The third map is a colorized topdown of a ziggurat created in Xara Xtreme, rather than 3D, with bevels and halo shadows to simulate the 3D depth. For top-downs, I think I'm going to have to stick to Xara. The Xara version has four sets of stairs all around the structure, though not found at Chichen Itza, apparently most ziggurats featured four flights of stairs instead of just one.

I tried a 3D version using an isometric camera. At the angle of the same model above, the difference was almost unnoticeable, so I didn't post that version. Must think some more on this.

So it looks like I'll be creating more with 3/4 view 3D, as well as topdown versions in Xara.

Thoughts?

GP

PS: this is a tougher challenge for me, so not the "light speed" guys you thought, huh?

PPS: by the way, NK, had to "rep" you on your color tips and links - much appreciated!

NeonKnight
09-23-2008, 05:38 AM
A good FLICKER site with some images of Mayan Works here:

http://flickr.com/photos/9549670@N05/2487482435/

Espcially this image:

http://flickr.com/photos/9549670@N05/2487432203/in/set-72157604955691096/

You can see how some of the bricks were painted different colors.

I can just imagine how these temples would have looked at their height.

Color wise, It looks good. We just need to remember that in the past, stone structures were never just left as stone. They would have been painted, whitewashed etc.

It's looking good though, because the images on the temple would often tell stories of the gods.

RobA
09-23-2008, 02:11 PM
I tried a 3D version using an isometric camera. At the angle of the same model above, the difference was almost unnoticeable, so I didn't post that version. Must think some more on this.

So it looks like I'll be creating

Not sure about your isometric camera...

I roughed it up in gimp against an isometric grid... this shows the difference I would expect:

6620

-Rob A>

RPMiller
09-23-2008, 02:26 PM
Yes, RobA's is more accurate isometric. A good way to gauge iso views is how well they fit in a hex. Iso is very close to the same angles as a hex since a hex is the silhouette of an isometric view of a cube. So the top three in RobA's example are closer to correct iso view.

Ascension
09-23-2008, 06:48 PM
I always wondered what the proper perspective for ISO was...now I know. It makes so much sense that I might toy around with this idea some, if just for adding icons to my maps. Thanks man :)

RobA
09-24-2008, 09:17 AM
I always wondered what the proper perspective for ISO was...now I know. It makes so much sense that I might toy around with this idea some, if just for adding icons to my maps. Thanks man :)

True ISO is 120 degrees, with no foreshortening of elements, so 1 unit x,y,z all measure the same. (This, of course, makes me recall fondly having to had sketch iso parts in a drafting class I took too many years ago.)

-Rob A>

RPMiller
09-24-2008, 12:10 PM
Sounds like we had the same class Rob. ;) Was it Orthographic Projections and Geometry by any chance? That class was rough, but it really taught me a lot of really useful stuff that I still use to this very day.

Gamerprinter
09-24-2008, 01:07 PM
I may yet create ISO structures, for the possible use in creating in ISO map for the Maya construction, I am working here, but my original goal was to create the kind of illustrative maps in 3/4 view depicting a historic location, battlefield plan - not an ISO map.

Think of flying from a small plane, hang glider whatever and looking at a 45 degree angle to the ground at a given location. If you could snap a photo from that view - this is what I am trying to create.

Truth tell, I don't care for ISO maps, what's missing in an isographic projection is perspective, which as an artist, I almost require to properly depict an illustrative or 3D created map. Most true ISO maps look so unrealistic without perspective, I just say "yech".

I guess my first goal is to create an illustrative 3D map of a Mayan Temple Complex and surrounding community. Then I will create the Xara created top down views of the same thing. Once complete, I will give the ISO version an attempt - only to accomodate those desiring ISO structures, not because its something I would do on my own initiative.

ISO is not for me, personally.

And yes, I created ISO drawings for drafting in 8th grade and high school over 30 years ago, as well.

GP

RPMiller
09-24-2008, 02:23 PM
You were lucky. I didn't get to do drafting until I majored in Architecture in college. I wish I could have done it in high school.

Taking into account that you are talking about creating an entire map in the perspective that you want and not individual objects. I get what you are saying, although I think you'll be quite challenged to find the right camera angles and settings to get what you are after. I'm really intrigued by this project and given your talent I can't wait to see it.

I would like to add some relevent information regarding perspective since this is as good a place as any to mention it. What is perspective? Well... that depends on your perspective. ;) A 3/4 view, but at what height? A 45 degree angle to the ground, but what is the angle to the object you are drawing? That is why Isometric drawings came into being. You had "absolutes" for all the angles and could project surrounding buildings and maps from those angles. In fact, there are really a lot of different meanings to the phrase "perspective drawing" and it depends on whether you are talking to a draftsman, an artist, or some combination of both such as a computer graphics artist... us. For the artist they deal with 1, 2 or 3 point perspective. For the draftsman they deal with specific angles, but depending on the project do slide into artistic realms from time to time. The computer graphic artist has the hardest job of all and has to keep in mind all the elements. Thankfully that has become easier over the years as the software has become more intelligent and all the math has been integrated so now they are back to the more artistic side of things.

Here is a link to perspective that relates to what I learned in college regarding perspective. This isn't the actual school I went to, but pretty much all the info is identical:

http://www.math.utah.edu/~treiberg/Perspect/Perspect.htm

Gamerprinter
09-24-2008, 04:02 PM
Exactly, RP, and as I mentioned, I looking in the "perspective" of an artist. However, allowing me to be ever more lazy. I am using a 3D application with a conical camera, therefore once I model and place the terrain and structures, the final perspective will be defined by the 3D program itself. So it decides the perspective, though I still have to setup the camera angles and distance from the objects in the right place.

That's why I chose to do this in 3D in the first place. The isometric discussion came through the result of thing of creating useable map objects out of the 3D and unless you go isometric, camera angles make it less useful.

I guess so isometrically speaking, my goal would be to create isometric projections of each final 3D object to be useable in creating those kinds of maps. Something I'll look into once I'm complete with the 3D map scene and the Xara top-down version of the same location.

GP

PS: just "repped" you RP for bringing up perspective, its an issue that should be discussed.

RPMiller
09-24-2008, 04:11 PM
Thanks GP! I wasn't sure if I should take it to a different thread or not, but I figured it would get more views in one of yours than one of mine. ;)

Gamerprinter
09-25-2008, 03:14 AM
Been searching online for map views of Mayan temple/city plans. Finding plenty of here's a photo of one temple ziggurat or here's a regional map showing locations of mayan ruins, not so much as a city plan.

Teotihuacan is really much bigger of a community than I'd originally planned to emulate in a 3D map, but that's all I really have for reference.

So those who know, will realize my city plan below is greatly based on Teotihuacan's urban design. Though this map area is rectangular, this might be the "downtown" area. I plan to place more residential structures beyond the borders of this map view with a less a more random city-limits perimeter.

The greenish circle thing on the upper right side of the map is supposed to emulate a cenote sinkhole - water source, entry to the underworld. The roads will be a "raised road" with steps from ground level up to road level

Rather than naming the pyramids here as per Teotihuacan, I plan to use Temple of the Jaguar, Temple to Kukulkan, and perhaps Tlaloc, (Kukulkan's temple ziggurat is that large one on the bottom end of the map.)

Apparently Mayans built their city grids 15.5 degrees east of true north.

Note this is just a rough draft layout of where and what kind of structures I need to create.

GP

NeonKnight
09-25-2008, 07:44 AM
Been searching online for map views of Mayan temple/city plans. Finding plenty of here's a photo of one temple ziggurat or here's a regional map showing locations of mayan ruins, not so much as a city plan.



Google-Fu......HeeeeeeeeeeeeYAH!

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Palenque+map&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Tikal+map&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

http://images.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=en&q=Chichen+Itza+map&btnG=Search+Images

http://images.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=en&q=Uxmal++map&btnG=Search+Images

Of course, most of these sites are depicting the grand structures of the Ruins, certainly not Tlaoq's Bakery and Mill just of the main plaza ;)

But, because you are asking for true city maps, the best city to look to, while not Mayan, is the city of Tenochtitlan, the capital city of the Aztecs. This city has been extensively studied through historical maps made by Cortes and Company when they first entered into the city.

Sadly, Tenochtitlan does not really exist as a ruins anymore, as it is now present day Mexico City, it's grand temples pulled down and the stones used to construct the cathedrals and villas of Mexico City.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochtitlan


http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Tenochtitlan&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2