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Gandwarf
09-22-2008, 05:30 PM
As it is not my intention to spam this forum with my own threads I am going to put more of my maps in here.
Earlier creations that I posted in the Finished maps section:

Overland map of the world:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=2977

Regional map of Verena:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?p=74369

Regional map of the north part of the Valley:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=6817

Regional map of the entire Valley:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?p=82822

Map of the keep in Verena:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=3000

Cities

- Concetron (capital):
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=3874

- Meerzicht (fortress town protecting Concetron):
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?p=44108

- Sirilion (largest city in the world):
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=3155

- Tweeberg (fortress town protecting Sirilion)
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=5343

- Westdiep (large harbor)
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=3793

- Ziadon (large mountain town)
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=3723

- Groenwoud (large logging town)
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=5398

Other city maps are located in this thread.

------------------------
Tutorials:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=3983
------------------------

Gandwarf
09-22-2008, 05:34 PM
This is my third and fourth map. It's a small village called Verena, located in one of the most northern regions in my world. Only about five hundred souls call it a home and its economy is primarily based on the forest located nearby. The village sells lumber, meat and furs to cities to the south. There's no inns, just some sawmills, small workshops, storage facilities and houses. The forest also hosts some small lumber camps.

The local lord occupies a stone keep - or more like a fortified mansion - in the middle of the settlement. Ten soldiers are employed, mostly to scare away groups of bandits traveling outside The Valley. A wooden stockade surrounds the village and there are several watchtowers.

I made the background of the image grey as the village is covered in snow most of the year. Not too happy with this map right now, that's why I did two versions (only the last shown here). There will probably be more versions... any hints or tips certainly welcome.

Ascension
09-22-2008, 05:47 PM
I like this layout very much...I get so tired of seeing cities with buildings all crammed right up next to each other with shared walls and such. We need more simple villages like this as this one is well thought out and well laid out. Looks exactly like what I imagine a small fortified village to look like. Well done.

Gandwarf
09-22-2008, 05:48 PM
This is my fifth map. It's a town called Noorderpoort (in English something like "Northgate"), located at a crossroads. About two thousand people live in the town and the surrounding lands. Because of the roads it gets its fair share of travelers, meaning there's some shops, inns, brothels and other entertainment, and there's rich farmland to the south. With most of the forests cut down Noorderpoort was one of the first cities to plant its own forest to sustain lumber needs and for trade. With lumber prices rising thieves are now trying to sneak in at night to get lumber and firewood. Anyone caught is of course dealt with rather harshly.

The town is surrounded by an earthen wall or dike (now covered in grass) and there's two stone towers. The Alliance has a garrison here of fifty soldiers and their superior officer is even in charge of the city now that a local magistrate has been assasinated (by a wizard the rumor goes and it's not the first magistrate to die, so the position has become somewhat unpopular).

I am actually quite pleased with the way this map turned out.

Now for my next city I might redo Meerzicht. Or maybe map another town.
I would like to do Noordhaven, a settlement sitting between Verena and Noorderpoort, but that town is located on a hill... and I have no idea how to properly do hills in City Designer. Tips are welcome :P

mogul76
09-22-2008, 06:38 PM
I like your style, Gandwarf. I really do. And of course...

... wens ik je veel geluk bij het ontwerpen van je kaarten :lol:

Mogul76

Gandwarf
09-23-2008, 05:51 PM
Thanks Mogul... are you Dutch too?

Anyway, I semi-finished my sixth map: Westerpont, in English literally Westferry. This city and surrounding villages are home to about 5.000 people. The settlement is located on the banks of a river - I still need to think of a good name - and owes its existence to a ferry.

The city has always had strong ties with the city of Miston to the north. When that city became more prosperous, so did Westerpont. Eventually it fell under the influence of the rulers in Miston. A small keep was built on the island and when trade picked up the ferries were turned into bridges that can be opened to let ships through. Miston is legendary for its large herds of cattle and it was a lot easier to drive the animals over bridges south into the Valley.

With the rise of Miston three wizards came in conflict with each other (operating from Miston, Concetron and Iffraon). A castle was built in Westerpont to guard the settlement and a few years later the heart of the city was walled.

Nowadays the city is under Alliance control and it's still quite prosperous because of trade from Miston, Groenwoud, Iffraon and Concetron.

Steel General
09-23-2008, 06:19 PM
All of these maps have been quite nice, but in this last one the shadows seem overly long. Is that intentional?

Gandwarf
09-23-2008, 06:22 PM
No, I forgot to shorten the shadows :-)
Thankfully I can easily change it by adjusting the effect of a certain sheet.

Gandwarf
09-23-2008, 07:06 PM
Ok, the shadows look better now I think. Thanks for pointing this out to me.
I also increased the size of the name.

mogul76
09-23-2008, 07:15 PM
Thanks Mogul... are you Dutch too?

No, I'm not Dutch. But I spent about 20 years of my life in the Netherlands (Rotterdam and Amsterdam)... and I'm not that old ;-) By the way, you seem to be a very fast cartographer!

Gandwarf
09-23-2008, 07:20 PM
No, I'm not Dutch. But I spent about 20 years of my life in the Netherlands (Rotterdam and Amsterdam)... and I'm not that old ;-) By the way, you seem to be a very fast cartographer!

Ah, I live near Rotterdam and work there :P
Strange though... living most of your life in the Netherlands and not being Dutch :o

Because it's such a blast to make city maps with CD3 I have been spending about 4 hours each day mapping. Which is enough to do smaller maps like Noorderpoort or Westerpont.

Next up Ravenburcht... I think.

Gandwarf
09-24-2008, 05:14 PM
So, my seventh map turned out to be another small village. I wanted to experiment a bit with a white underground and snowy trees.

Venduras is a village of about four hundred people. It lies outside the Valley, which means its covered in snow most of the year. To the north lies a forest and some mountains. There's a small iron mine there that is exploited.

A lot of villagers are involved in the herding of reindeer. The animals are raised for meat, hides, milk and antlers. They are also used for transportation. The village gets few travelers, but there is small inn and a few times a year products are brought to The Valley to be sold. Or if the villagers are lucky some travelling merchants will visit them.

Venduras has no soldiers or militia, but is only occasionaly preyed upon by bandits as it is far from prosperous. There's an elected mayor, although elections are only open to certain male elders.

Gandwarf
09-24-2008, 05:39 PM
Also added a floorplan of the keep/fortified mansion in Verena made with Dungeon Designer 3:

http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?p=32561
(I put the thread in another forum, as this one is intended for city maps).

Gandwarf
09-25-2008, 09:13 PM
For my eight map I picked Ravenburcht.

Ravenburcht (translated something like Raven's Keep) has grown a lot in the last years and is now a respectable city and home to a few thousand citizens. Most of the traffic going to the capital Concetron passes through this city and over its toll bridge. There's a fortified house near the bridge where the administration collects the money.

The city is dominated by a large castle on a cliff. It was once built to protect Concetron and is now garrisoned by Alliance soldiers. There used to be a large statue of the wizard Téodan on the cliff - the first thing travelers would notice when passing over the bridge - but it was torn down after the fall of the hated wizard.

During the revolution there was a battle near this city and the leader of the revolution was almost killed. A bodyguard was formed to protect him, basing its name on the nearby keep: the Silver Ravens. The Alliance monarch is still protected by these highly skilled swordfighters, dressed in black and a silver raven pinned to their chest.

Torq
09-26-2008, 03:00 AM
Your cities are fantastic Gandwarf. We are very much in need of city designers at the CWBP. If you havn't had a look at the project threads please do so. Also if you have any city designs hanging around we would love to give them a home. Keep up the great work.

Torq

Steel General
09-26-2008, 08:26 AM
I agree with Torq, and each one is just a bit better than the previous, an obvious indication of your increasing skill/familiarity with CD3.

Keep up the good work.

Gandwarf
09-26-2008, 08:48 AM
Thanks for the comments guys!

So I wanted to do a quick map again. I am not entirely happy with it and might redo it in the future.

This is the town of Paradijs (Paradise). Do not let the name fool you however, as this used to be a very miserable place in the south. The sorceress Ylianne sent thousands of slaves here to work in the nearby silver mines. A camp was established and around it evolved a small town (overseers, soldiers, free skilled workers and their families). Conditions in the camp and mines were very bad, prisoner abuse rampant, and not many survived even for a year. But there were always more slaves being sent.

The brilliant Alliance general Belarcar - once a simple fisherman from Meerzicht - put an end to Ylianne's reign when he defeated her armies near her seat of power: Sirilion. A few weeks later this camp was liberated. It now functions as a prison for Ylianne's followers.

Valarian
09-26-2008, 08:51 AM
All these places called Paradise, and none of them live up to the name :D

Gandwarf
09-26-2008, 08:52 AM
All these places called Paradise, and none of them live up to the name :D

Haha, it's a bit of a cliche, yes. But I would like to think it was an extra slap in the face of the people sent there. The name mocked them.

Larb
09-27-2008, 04:18 PM
Some wonderful maps in this thread. Also nice to see less "regular" city walls. I'm not a big fan of symmetrical city defences, they usually tend to conform more to the landscape and shape of the city, rather than aesthetics. Plus, constructing them is expensive, so they usually take the shortest route.

Although, saying that, a couple of the cities I've designed have symmetrical city wall layouts. If your city history can justify, then it's fine really... =P

But anyway, I really like the cities, they are all very interesting.

Gandwarf
09-30-2008, 06:18 PM
So call me crazy, but I started work last week on the city of Sirilion. This is the largest city in my world. The first version took me 8 hours and then I deleted that one (it wasn't finished by a longshot). I started working on version 2, WIP below. General city layout is complete, although I might still change some things. It's obviously going to take many hours to finish. Most of the map will be covered in houses.

The city is located near a river that has dug itself into a canyon over the years. So no docks as the city is on a higher elevation. Dikes have been built to change the flow of the river and the land behind it is used as farmland. I will do a full city writeup when the map is finished.

JoeyD473
10-01-2008, 12:19 AM
on that little island to the south it has a building with the domed roofs. WHat is that building supposed be

ALso where did those domes come from cause I like them

Gandwarf
10-01-2008, 05:37 AM
on that little island to the south it has a building with the domed roofs. WHat is that building supposed be

ALso where did those domes come from cause I like them

It's going to be the palace.
The domes are coming from the Symbol B catalog. There's some towers in there that can take the color you pick (I picked yellow for a golden look). Does that help?

JoeyD473
10-01-2008, 05:42 PM
yes it does thanks

delgondahntelius
10-01-2008, 08:45 PM
What's the population of that city?

Gandwarf
10-02-2008, 05:30 AM
What's the population of that city?

That's a trick question :P

The city and surrounding farmland and villages have a population of about 50.000. Sirilion is located in a very strategic position with lots of resources and fertile land.

Please don't start counting the houses :shock:

delgondahntelius
10-02-2008, 05:33 AM
Heh. I can't count that high... lol... I was just wondering ... and I would start by measuring the square footage before I started counting houses to determine whether or not it was big enough :D

Gandwarf
10-02-2008, 06:10 AM
Heh. I can't count that high... lol... I was just wondering ... and I would start by measuring the square footage before I started counting houses to determine whether or not it was big enough :D

Well, this city will be pretty big once I am finished with it. There will be enough houses to host thousands and thousands of people. Some houses will contain only one family (but families of course now being larger than in our modern days) but many will contain several families.

And then there's the towns and villages in the immediate vicinity not shown :P

Gandwarf
10-02-2008, 08:03 PM
I had a few hours to spare and made some additions to this map. It's not even half done and I am getting depressed :P

delgondahntelius
10-02-2008, 08:34 PM
Hmm... I could have sworn I replied .... but I will again... Generally when I map a town, I use the rule of 15 ..... buildings = 15% of the population and multiply the population by 1500 and that will give you the overall square footage that the city would cover... mind you, these are just my little gage that I use adjusting of course for the type of city I want.... These also tend to break down at cities that have less that 500 ..... It's worked for me so far :D

Gandwarf
10-02-2008, 08:37 PM
Hmm... I could have sworn I replied .... but I will again... Generally when I map a town, I use the rule of 15 ..... buildings = 15% of the population and multiply the population by 1500 and that will give you the overall square footage that the city would cover... mind you, these are just my little gage that I use adjusting of course for the type of city I want.... These also tend to break down at cities that have less that 500 ..... It's worked for me so far :D

ROFL, wrong thread? :o

delgondahntelius
10-02-2008, 08:40 PM
lol.. maybe... quite possibly... it was supposed to be in response of our little population conversation .... little late, but better than never :D

Gandwarf
10-02-2008, 08:44 PM
lol.. maybe... quite possibly... it was supposed to be in response of our little population conversation .... little late, but better than never :D

Ah, because you replied a bit late I thought you wanted to reply in the thread about population density.

Anyway, I didn't count, but this city already has hundreds and hundreds of buildings. There's gonna be thousands. And then I will have RSI.

Hmm, somehow that doesn't sound right :P

delgondahntelius
10-02-2008, 09:00 PM
I can only imagine.... I mapped the city of Loftwick in the Yeomanry (World of Greyhawk) for a PBP I used to play on .... I used CC2pro back in the day and I know that it took me quite a bit, plus it was one of my first maps that I completed with CC2pro so .. ya ... I got Carpal Tunnel Syndrome out of that map...

68066807

Gandwarf
10-03-2008, 05:21 AM
I can only imagine.... I mapped the city of Loftwick in the Yeomanry (World of Greyhawk) for a PBP I used to play on .... I used CC2pro back in the day and I know that it took me quite a bit, plus it was one of my first maps that I completed with CC2pro so .. ya ... I got Carpal Tunnel Syndrome out of that map...

68066807

It's a nice map (for CC2). I like your gates, gonna steal that sometime soon :P

delgondahntelius
10-03-2008, 06:55 AM
It's a nice map (for CC2). I like your gates, gonna steal that sometime soon :P

Go for it... I love that gate design. Those were designed to fend of giant attacks... Each of those gate houses hosts a complete yeomanary battalion of some 200 men... somewhere in that vicinity if memory serves. But that's just one of many gate designs.... :D so feel free to use the layout ... probably wouldn't even noticed ... lol. My ADD get's in the way of noticing little things like that.

Thanks for the compliment on the maps.... But, I look at them now, and just can't believe I spent sooooo many hours on that map, and I was sooooooo proud of it, but it isn't really that great of a map. I think it just screams... beginner... The important thing is the fact that I've improved... (i like to think so anyway) and it was good experience... :D

Gandwarf
10-03-2008, 07:17 AM
Thanks for the compliment on the maps.... But, I look at them now, and just can't believe I spent sooooo many hours on that map, and I was sooooooo proud of it, but it isn't really that great of a map. I think it just screams... beginner... The important thing is the fact that I've improved... (i like to think so anyway) and it was good experience... :D

In CD3 that map would have looked a lot better already. It's not *that* beginner, I still like it.

Gandwarf
10-03-2008, 06:26 PM
Sirilion with some more additions. Notice the gate on the southern castle :P

I think I am actually halfway there. w00t!

Sigurd
10-04-2008, 12:12 AM
I like the sensibility in these. Very nice density of buildings and resources.


Very much appreciated.

(Any chance we could get versions without names on them for use\abuse in our own games :) ) They're very useful.

delgondahntelius
10-04-2008, 03:30 AM
Look's great.... now where's the other half?? :D heh... very nice though.

landorl
10-04-2008, 12:29 PM
Wow! The sheer number of maps here is incredible, but what is even more incredible is the quality of the maps. All of these are great and have a lot of character.

Keep up the good work.

Gandwarf
10-04-2008, 04:55 PM
(Any chance we could get versions without names on them for use\abuse in our own games :) ) They're very useful.

Hmm, maybe. Do you have any particular maps you want to use?

Gandwarf
10-04-2008, 04:58 PM
Anyway, thanks for your comments, it's what is keeping me going. This map is getting hard to finish :o

New WIP. The northern bank is now mostly finished.

Gandwarf
10-04-2008, 08:21 PM
Pfff, getting tired, but gave the map another push. It looks like I will be able to finish it within a few days 8)

That means 2 out of 5 great cities in my world mapped and I already want to redo the first map (Concetron). Ack!

delgondahntelius
10-05-2008, 03:08 AM
Excellent work Gandwarf, you are truly a CC3/CCD master .... and I gotta hand it to your dedication and enduring click finger. You rock! :D

Sigurd
10-05-2008, 03:21 AM
Hmm, maybe. Do you have any particular maps you want to use?

Your maps have a wonderful believable quality to them - really high marks. They're so flexible for storytelling in role playing games. I just think it would be a shame to see the names photoshopped out or cut off.

Very pretty whatever you do. Stylistically they'd make a nice unified list of cities. I just think they'd see more use if you let people write thier own labels on them. I'd understand if you didn't want them used that way but I think most people who want a map have already commited to names and many details before they realize their need.


Sigurd

Steel General
10-05-2008, 11:56 AM
Great job!

I would've gotten "burned out" on this long before I ever got to this point (see my Osengaard map). I applaud your dedication.

Gandwarf
10-05-2008, 12:22 PM
Great job!

I would've gotten "burned out" on this long before I ever got to this point (see my Osengaard map). I applaud your dedication.


Thanks. I saw your Osengaard map and thought it was a shame you quit working on it. Although it was already looking good. It can be difficult to finish stuff sometimes, but you just have to push yourself.

Writing is even more difficult for me. I should be finishing my second novel, but instead I am mapping the world. Which is cool, but also an excuse not having to write. Some time soon I have to quit mapping and making up excuses and push myself to write again :P

Hopefully I might get some work done on Sirilion tonight. My fiancee is using my desktop right and my laptop doesn't have CC3 installed :((

Gandwarf
10-05-2008, 08:54 PM
Ok, this map is getting to be a chore right now. Need to finish quickly before I go insane :P

Next map is going to be a very small town :D

But... need... to... finish... this... one... first...

Gandwarf
10-06-2008, 07:05 PM
So, my tenth map is finished I think. I present to you, the city of Sirilion.

It's the most populous city in the Valley, with almost 50.000 inhabitants (counting surrounding villages). People gathered here mostly because is has strategic access to many resources. There's excellent farm and grazing lands all around the city, mountains supply marble, stone, iron ore and silver and clay is used to make bricks and pottery. One of the most important resources it is lacking right now is wood, as its forests have been cut down by wasteful rulers, but it is imported from the south.

Because of its access to resources there's a lot workshops and trade going on. The river has been dammed to create more farmland and mills and watermills are built all along the water to supply power to its industries. The river near Sirilion has carved out a canyon, so it's not easily accessible from the city itself - although the smaller island is sloped and has a small beach used mainly by fisherman. The bigger island hosts the palace with its gold domed roofs.

Over the years a lot of defences were added, but the city was always hungry for more land and kept on growing. In the south an earthen wall has been created to protect assets, but in the north the city is allowed to run free. The castle in the southwest was mainly used as a staging point for slave caravans. As not everyone wanted to live there the housing is less dense.

The spoiled elite have set up mansions in the east, along the southern bank. Away from the filth and noise of the city.

Sirilion has always been ruled by wizards, most using it as their seat of power. The last wizard, or rather sorceress, to rule the city was Ylianne D'Trevaile. She was the daughter of another wizard and had great power because of that. She ruled Sirilion with an iron fist and sent thousands into slavery to work the mines. Enemies were tortured to death or if she couldn't get to them, she would capture their relatives and make sure her enemies turned themselves in. She especially hated other women - thinking them weak - and used rape as a weapon of war.

Her rule ended when the revolution that started in the north spread to Sirilion after a few years of running wild. An Alliance army of over 12.000 soldiers, led by the brilliant general Belarcar, defeated her armies near Sirilion after months of combat. Ylianne was found dead in her palace, possible murdered by her own bodyguards.

Sirilion is now garrisoned by Alliance soldiers, but the south is plagued by famine and more conflict, as the elite that Ylianne used to pamper is continuing to fight. Belarcar has long since been withdrawn and lesser officers are left to deal with the mess. Tens of thousands of refugees from the south have travelled to the north, especially the area near Concetron. As farmland is left unattended less food is available and the famine gets worse by the day.

torstan
10-06-2008, 07:40 PM
Good work. That's a very pretty map.

Steel General
10-06-2008, 08:32 PM
Great job Gandwarf!

My only suggestion would be maybe to put some kind of border around it and move the city name. Why cover up all that time and effort?

Gandwarf
10-06-2008, 08:51 PM
Great job Gandwarf!

My only suggestion would be maybe to put some kind of border around it and move the city name. Why cover up all that time and effort?

A good suggestion. I was planning to experiment with borders in the near future. Haven't ever done them, so I am a bit nervous ;)
I want to use a uniform border for all my maps.

Right now I am messing with a small map of a camp in a forest. I slapped this together in 15 minutes. Somehow it doesn't look right. Have to look into it tomorrow.

Ascension
10-06-2008, 09:49 PM
Sirillion blows me away, totally epic in scope not to mention epic patience and determination. Keep up the amazing work my man.

delgondahntelius
10-06-2008, 11:33 PM
GREAT JOB on Sirillion. just fantastic demonstration of determination and dedication and patience. Just awesome CC3 city map....

jfrazierjr
10-07-2008, 10:00 AM
GREAT JOB on Sirillion. just fantastic demonstration of determination and dedication and patience. Just awesome CC3 city map....

Agreed! Post it up in the Finished Maps section.

RobA
10-07-2008, 11:31 AM
Funny thing about the Sirillion map is how it almost has a false perspective. I think it is because all the streets in the lower half of the map converge.

Beautiful, though!

-Rob A>

meleeguy
10-07-2008, 06:31 PM
You should publish these - possibly without labels for game masters.

Gandwarf
10-07-2008, 08:28 PM
Thanks for the comments people, it means a lot :)
I am not sure if I should put my maps in the Finished section, at least not as separate maps. It would pollute the place.

Anyhow, I abandoned my last map (the one in the forest clearing) and I spent some time trying to do a hill again. So for my eleventh or something map I created Zoutland.

Zoutland (Saltland) is a small town located almost in the center of the Valley. Roads lead to all directions. Most of the (larger) houses are located on a hill as is a small tower used as a lookout. About 1.500 - 2.000 people live here. Some farming is going on, but not really intensive. The ground is not that fertile.

So with it's central position Zoutland could easily have been a hub for traffic. Why isn't this town bigger, you ask? Well, the town's location is a bit too central. The wizards from Iffraon, Ziadon and Sirilion fought lots of wars with each other and a lot of times Zoutland was involved. The town changed hands many times, was burnt down, declared no man's land, destroyed again, etc. Thousands of soldiers died attacking or defending the hill over the years and fortifications were constantly being taken down. No one ruler could hold the town for long.

Now that the wizards have been defeated the Alliance maintains a small garrison in the tower and the town finally knows peace. Most of the houses you see on the map have sprung up recently as it used to be a ghosttown after all the fighting. Zoutland might be be a very powerful city in the future, especially when the south starts to quiet down and trade picks up.

Gandwarf
10-08-2008, 06:22 PM
I am still experimenting with hills, so for my twelfth map I did another town with hills. I think they are looking better, but there is still room for improvement.

This is Zilvertop (Silvertop), a small town located near Ziadon. The settlement is located near a lake and small hill. The town is aptly named as the mountains to the north and east contain a lot of silver.

Because of extensive mining Zilvertop gets a lot of traffic and it should be seen as a support town. There's some warehouses, inns, a foundry, blacksmiths, wagon menders, shops, etc. There's not much farming going on because of the rocky ground and higher altitudes, so food has to be imported from Ziadon.

meleeguy
10-08-2008, 07:01 PM
Good stuff! I'm going to have to stick a few of these in my kids game - if that is ok with you.

Zoutland seems like it should have some big burial mounds.

Gandwarf
10-08-2008, 07:08 PM
Good stuff! I'm going to have to stick a few of these in my kids game - if that is ok with you.

Zoutland seems like it should have some big burial mounds.

No, I don't mind, as long as you don't exploit them commercially or throw them all over the internet :)

Burial mounds... hmm, that's something new for me. But it makes sense. I saw another map with a cemetery. I will try something like that in the future. Still mostly working on hills. I need a good hill to do Noordhaven, a town I am itching to get mapped.

meleeguy
10-08-2008, 08:39 PM
Yup, just private games. Thanks.

The lake map would be all the sweeter with some more detail around the lake. Small boats, and a band of trees around it, unless it is a tailings lake.

I'd like to see a few more ppi if possible. I was thinking how these would be good for miniatures battles projected on a tabletop. I'm going to buy a projecter for that if possible sometime in the next 6 months.

Impressive output. You did these all last year and are just messing with our minds right? ;)

Gandwarf
10-09-2008, 05:18 AM
Yup, just private games. Thanks.

The lake map would be all the sweeter with some more detail around the lake. Small boats, and a band of trees around it, unless it is a tailings lake.

I'd like to see a few more ppi if possible. I was thinking how these would be good for miniatures battles projected on a tabletop. I'm going to buy a projecter for that if possible sometime in the next 6 months.

Impressive output. You did these all last year and are just messing with our minds right? ;)

Heh, I never made these maps to be used in games, so that explains the lower ppi in some of the maps :)

I'll see if I can add some stuff to the lake map. I will even remove the name if you want. For me boats and more trees are useless (I am mapping a fantasy world for some novels I am writing and in that world most of the trees have been cut down - wood is now a valuable commodity).

I have always wanted to map cities, but didn't have the right software to do it (I'm lazy and didn't want to do it all myself in for example Photoshop). City Designer 2 was not to my taste and now that City Designer 3 has been released I have mapped almost every day for like 4 hours. So that's a lot of output with software like this.

My productivity will go down soon as I am working on an encyplodedia in a private Wiki. So I'm adding lots of texts, these maps and other stuff I have created to help me keep track of my world.

Gandwarf
10-09-2008, 05:20 PM
So, something like this? I can increase the resolution.

It's hard to make maps for gaming... I like more empty maps and it still looks empty :)

meleeguy
10-09-2008, 06:02 PM
That's somewhat amusing to read, for my favorite map in the thread so far is "Sirilion" - which is rather filled with symbols. :)

All of your maps, although some more than others, have interesting layouts that to me feed my gamer mind, perhaps similarly to your stated purposes (your writing). Close examination is like looking at a "Where's Waldo" effect, except in terms of "Wow, some thought went into this." Throw down some miniatures and you're defending the city against the orc army. Here are the breaches and escalades are underway here here and here.

:)

Other really good maps have these characteristics.

Gandwarf
10-09-2008, 06:09 PM
That's somewhat amusing to read, for my favorite map in the thread so far is "Sirilion" - which is rather filled with symbols. :)


Ok, I must admit that's a bit amusing. But Sirilion is the largest city in my world, I couldn't just slap some houses down and call it a day, like I did with Zilvertop :)

Sirilion kinda made me scared to do other large cities, however... so I am sticking with some smaller towns for now.

Gandwarf
10-09-2008, 09:57 PM
For my... eh, thirteenth map I continued practicing making hills. I think I am starting to get them right.

The map depicts Duisterpunt (Point Darkness) a town located outside the Valley. With no passes nearby and violent snowstorms plaguing the surrounding langs it's quite isolated. It's the reason why the inhabitants went there in the first place.

As I said earlier the wizards didn't like religion and they committed genocide on believers for hundreds of years. Over the years some managed to flee to this isolated region. The monastery in the north of town was one of the first buildings and as the town continued to grow a small wall was added to ward off any bandits who were stupid enough to blunder into the regio.

The wizards knew were the last believers where hiding, but they were always too busy fighting each other. Over the years their priorities shifted and some monks dared enter the Valley again. Eventually they were even hired by some rulers als scribes or contract negotiators. We can thank them for most of the written history of this world.

There's not much farming going on in Duisterpunt, as the land surrounding Duisterpunt is covered in snow almost the entire year. There's some trade with Groenwoud happening, mostly to import foodstuffs.

Duisterpunt is built near some ancient ruins, located on a hill nearby. The monks have studied the ruins extensively.

Gamerprinter
10-09-2008, 11:26 PM
I think you need to soften and lighten the shadow at the base of your hills, there should be a smoother transition from the base of the hill to ground level beneath it. It almost makes your hills appear to "float" above your ground plain.

I used to have the same problem myself, the transition between hill and ground is critical to making the hill part of the land, not above it.

GP

Gandwarf
10-10-2008, 07:31 AM
I think you need to soften and lighten the shadow at the base of your hills, there should be a smoother transition from the base of the hill to ground level beneath it. It almost makes your hills appear to "float" above your ground plain.

I used to have the same problem myself, the transition between hill and ground is critical to making the hill part of the land, not above it.

GP

Great tip, thanks! Something more like this then? I can soften them even more, but then the hills start to really fade away.

Gandwarf
10-10-2008, 12:35 PM
Still experimenting with the hills. I might have to soften them some more in this map. The problem is that if I soften them more they tend to dissappear when you zoom in (zoomed out it looks better though).

So this is Noordhaven, a somewhat isolated town in the north of the Valley. There's many hills nearby and the land isn't really suitable for massive farming. But there's lots of grass and so the inhabitants are keeping livestock. Like cows, horses, sheep, etc. The sheep are kept in flocks and are allowed to graze on the hills. The other animals are kept penned in mostly. Fields are protected by low stone walls to protect the crops.

On the top of the hill is a paved square, surrounded by a low wall. Most of the richer townsfolk live there and there's also a large inn. The two large buildings are actually large stone barns. In times of trouble most of the livestock can be accomodated there. As the smell can be quite horrible over there houses are mostly built away from those barns.

Noordhaven has been mostly left alone by the wizards. Because it steered clear of the bulk of conflicts it is now quite prosperous. Nowadays, the town is officially part of the Alliance, but it is mostly left alone again. There's no Alliance garrison here and the mayor is an elected local.

The town is protected by a small militia. Professional soldiers were never hired to make sure noone saw Noordhaven as a threat.

And remember, a map a day keeps the doctor away...

Steel General
10-10-2008, 02:46 PM
I think the hills look OK, you definitely appear to be getting the hang of doing them.

Maybe its just me, but I still think what these maps need is some kind of texture for the grass, etc. it just appears "flat" (for lack of a better word). Not sure what you can do in CC3 as far as that goes. Or hell, just ignore my ramblings and leave it the way it is.

It all depends on the look you're trying for.

With or without the texturing these are still nicely done. :)

Gandwarf
10-10-2008, 03:20 PM
CC3 can do textures. Actually, I am already using a standard texture for the background :P

But I don't think I am gonna change the background. I don't want my maps looking too realistic (like photo-realistic)

landorl
10-10-2008, 04:50 PM
Personally, I kind of like the grass the way it is. I tend to not like the photo-realistic look either. I think that this look has a nice, artistic feel to it.

Ascension
10-10-2008, 06:03 PM
That yellowish one looks really good. The deal with the hills fading out when zoomed in is that you're probably reducing the opacity on the whole layer or blurring it out too far. What you're looking for is a smooth transition from flat to slope so you're initial thought was on target there but use an airbrush tip set to a low opacity and use a more painterly "brush stroke" to build up the dark color so that it won't fade out. One of Pyrandon's tutorials explains it much better than I am.

jfrazierjr
10-10-2008, 06:07 PM
That yellowish one looks really good. The deal with the hills fading out when zoomed in is that you're probably reducing the opacity on the whole layer or blurring it out too far. What you're looking for is a smooth transition from flat to slope so you're initial thought was on target there but use an airbrush tip set to a low opacity and use a more painterly "brush stroke" to build up the dark color so that it won't fade out. One of Pyrandon's tutorials explains it much better than I am.


Note sure if CC has brushes like that. One thing I have done a bit in the past with Fractal Mapper is to create several slightly bigger layers with the lower ones being bigger than the ones above AND make the lower ones a bit more blurred and more translucent. This gives somewhat of a fade effect in a program that does not have direct brush effects such as Fractal Mapper without looking "too" bad. Granted, it is by no means the best, but it might be something CC3 can do fairly easily.

Ascension
10-10-2008, 06:24 PM
Good idea, done that myself a time or two, forgot that CC3 might not have a brush (doh).

Gandwarf
10-10-2008, 09:09 PM
Thanks for the comments and tips guys. I am certainly not done with experimenting with hills :P

Anyway, I started another large city, because I am a sadomasochistic. Not Concetron or Sirilion large, but still large. WIP of Westdiep (Westdeep) below. I will give a city description when the map is done.

I have cut and pasted this map together, at some places the pieces don't match. I will fix that in the next version.

Still, I think this map is going to rock. This is the first map I am working on that I am truly happy with. (Sure, there is always room for improvement).

Gandwarf
10-11-2008, 06:53 PM
Second WIP, 60% finished now I think. It's always difficult to finish these larger maps, as the placing of farmland and houses can get a bit tedious.
Still happy with the way this map is turning out, although I made some mistakes. But hey, that means I am still learning :P

Gandwarf
10-12-2008, 04:36 PM
Next WIP, probably last one before this map is finished. It's now 80% complete I think. I bulldozed some houses to make room for some more "special" buildings and squares.

delgondahntelius
10-12-2008, 06:03 PM
Still looking Great! :D

Gandwarf
10-12-2008, 07:06 PM
Well, another one bites the dust.

Westdiep is a large fortified town located on the northern shore of the lake and lying between the great cities of Miston and Concetron. It can be considered the bread basket of the north of the Valley. There's a lot of agriculture going on and the harbor and river see a lot of traffic from grain barges. Only Blauwhaven has a larger harbor.

The city has seen a lot of fighting as the wizards from both Miston and Concetron wanted to control the area. There are watchtowers on both river banks and a large castle of the hill overlooking the town. The city walls also protect the islands as the lake will sometimes freeze up during the winter.

The rulers of the city never allowed large concentrations of houses near the city walls (or on the hill where the castle is located), but nowadays people are starting to settle on the shores of the river.

The Alliance maintains a large militairy presence in the city, although not as large as in Meerzicht which is located just east of Westdiep.

Steel General
10-12-2008, 08:48 PM
More great work, keep it up!

meleeguy
10-19-2008, 02:24 PM
Beautiful.

Gandwarf
10-20-2008, 08:16 PM
Thanks guys. No more maps from me right now. I picked up my pen and started writing again. I had such a blast making maps I forgot I was just making stuff to support the world I am writing my novels in :P
I already have over 600.000 words on paper.

I will probably return to this thread later, especially after I have found out how some of the maps look in printed copies of my novels.

Sigurd
11-05-2008, 05:44 PM
I already have over 600.000 words on paper.

Congratulations!

I wish you well. Are you posting bits of your writing anywhere? Is there a "Writers Guild" you frequent that might be the Cartographers counterpart?


Sigurd

Gandwarf
11-06-2008, 06:57 AM
Congratulations!

I wish you well. Are you posting bits of your writing anywhere? Is there a "Writers Guild" you frequent that might be the Cartographers counterpart?


Sigurd

Thanks.
I have posted the first chapter of my first novel online, but it is in Dutch, so probably not of much use to you?

I don't frequent a writers guild. I used to visit one a couple of years ago but the feedback was slow and not really worthwhile unfortunately. I have printed about a dozen copies of my first novel and handed them out to friends and family and that is really helping a lot.

Unfortunately I am not making maps or writing right now... there's too many good games I have to play. Like Fallout 3 :P
So although I wanted to wrap up the second novel this year it's probably going to be next year.

Ah well. This is a personal project and I am not on a deadline. I started writing a novel because I used to earn my living with writing but I changed professions about 8 years ago. This way I keep my pen sharp.
One novel turned into three. And I already have plans for another trilogy.

Friends are still pushing me to send the stuff that I got to a publisher... but I don't know.

Gandwarf
11-29-2008, 06:37 PM
Well, I couldn't resist and did a quick map today. Took me about 2 hours to map the city of Groenburg.

This is a town to the southeast of the great city of Iffraon, which has been home to generations of powerful wizards. The region has seen many wars with the great cities of Miston and Concetron. Groenburg once started as a keep that was built to protect the caravans that travelled there.

Groenburg is now quite a large town, but it's not really prosperous and it doesn't have many places of interest. There's some farming going on and some trade. The people hope that once the rebellion near Sirilion dies out the town will see a lot more traffic and trade.

Because of all the conflicts over the years walls were added and even a moat. The moat makes the town quite unique as not many other settlements have one. Winters in The Valley are harsh and water will often freeze.

Ascension
11-29-2008, 06:47 PM
Looks good as always G.

Steel General
11-29-2008, 08:44 PM
Another nice job...

ravells
11-29-2008, 08:54 PM
Effective! The best part of this map for me is the way the axes of the town are rotated off the usual N=up/S=down/E=right/W=left.

Turgenev
12-04-2008, 01:08 AM
Great stuff, Gandwarf. I especially love the Westdiep and Groenburg maps. I really like the way you use the different colours for the surrounding fields. Inspirational stuff. Considered yourself repped for all of your hard work. ;)

Edit: Dang, can't rep you at the moment. I need to spread the rep around before I can do so again.

Clercon
12-08-2008, 02:32 PM
Really great maps!

I think I have to get CD3 after seeing all these beautiful maps.

:-)

Gandwarf
12-08-2008, 07:00 PM
Thanks guys. And yes, CD3 is great, buy it :P

Anyway, I wanted to try some things out and made a generic map that I will probably never use for my novel. It's a town near a river delta. There's a small wooden keep and lots of forests.

Gandwarf
12-11-2008, 07:41 PM
Well, the itching started again and I have begun work on another large city: Blauwhaven (Blueharbor). The largest port in my world. I will add a bigger maps when the city evolves.

Gandwarf
12-12-2008, 07:57 PM
New WIP, after I put in another 1.5 hours. I am going slow with this map, I don't want to get burned out.

Gandwarf
12-13-2008, 11:35 AM
Next WIP, another 1.5 hours of work added. I am starting to like this map.

Gandwarf
12-13-2008, 04:03 PM
Finished the map, took about 7 hours total.

So this is Blueharbor, the largest port city in my world. Most of the larger lake vessels have been built here. It might not have the most docks, but it sees the most traffic. Although that might change in the future, as cities like Concetron and Westdiep are getting their fair share of traffic and trade.

Blueharbor in the past was an independent city state, ruled by a wizard. In later years the city fell under the influence of the great wizards of Concetron. It is now ruled by the Alliance.

The city has a sheltered harbor with an entrance between two cliffs. Lighttowers on the cliffs can guide ships into the harbor when it's dark. Two fortresses on the cliffs guard the city.

Gandwarf
12-14-2008, 08:31 PM
Well, I am mapping another great city (3rd out of 5). It's Ziadon, a city that started humbly as a small mining town a few centuries ago. Thanks to rich silver mines the town really prospered and the wizards that eventually ruled there were powerful enough to withstand even the rulers from Sirilion. Full description when the map is finished.

If the map gets finished that is, this might be my Waterloo :P
I am about 3 hours in at the moment.

RobA
12-15-2008, 02:50 PM
I'd love to see a time-lapse recording of you drawing one of these :)

-Rob A>

Gandwarf
12-15-2008, 06:06 PM
Ok, put in another 2.5 hours. This map is going to be difficult to finish. There's still loads of stuff to be done and my computer is crashing all over the place. I might even have to divide the map in several chunks in CD3. And yes if I ever finish this I will post a higher resolution version.

Gandwarf
12-15-2008, 08:11 PM
Ok, total time 7 hours, probably about 40% finished (ack!). CD3 crash gods are kind to me right now. Need to sleep.

ravells
12-16-2008, 08:32 AM
That's the thing about cities - they are a huge amount of work compared to regional maps where you can get away with covering large parts of the map with textures. It would have taken me three times as long to have to created that city...you did well!

Gandwarf
12-16-2008, 06:46 PM
Total work logged about 10.5 hours now. Progress has been great tonight and I think I will actually be able to finish this map :P

Also I am liking the way it is turning out. I wasn't too happy about the earlier WIP's, but now it's going somewhere...
Not sure about some of the mountains/cliffs yet, but we'll see what happens.

Gandwarf
12-17-2008, 06:48 PM
12 hours. The end is near :P
I should be able to wrap this up in a few more hours.

----------------

Updated: 13.5 hours.

Gandwarf
12-18-2008, 06:47 PM
Finished the map in about 16 hours. Posted it in the Finished Map section also: http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3723

--------------------------------

So, this is Ziadon (see http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=2977 for its location).
It is one of five great cities in The Valley, my fantasy world. The city once started humbly as a mining town, as there is a lot of silver to be found there in the ground and mountains. Immense wealth attracted the wizards and from the time they got involved in the city its growth exploded. Mining operations moved farther and farther away from Ziadon, but the city prospered.

New walls were added over the years as the city grew. The last wall dates back only about twenty years. Construction was started during one of severals conflicts with the great city of Sirilion, that lies to the southwest.

A river that springs from the mountains empties into a small lake. The lake itself drains into several tunnels to lower grounds. There's a lot of catacombs underneath the city, most created by extensive mining in the past, and those that are not flooded are used to house the remains of the dead.

Ziadon is very rich because of its silver deposits, but it has always lacked other natural resources. Farmland is scarce and mainly concentrated near the river. It was so valuable to the rulers that large areas have even been walled off. Timber has also been a problem in the past and the forest in the east is the largest planted forest in the world. It is carefully maintained.

During the revolution the wizard that ruled Ziadon was eliminated by Alliance agents and a few weeks later the city was infiltrated through the catacombs by large numbers of Alliance troops. Ziadon was already on the brink of revolt and the garrison was overwhelmed. The palace guard, dark skinned mercenaries from Padras, renowned for their loyalty and battle skill, died almost to the last man protecting the lesser wizards still remaining. Most were able to escape thanks to the sacrifice of the guard.

Ziadon is now ruled by the Alliance and the slaves that once had to work the mines and farms have been freed.

Gandwarf
12-19-2008, 06:23 PM
Been messing with a generic test map to see what kind of shadows I could get on a hill (there's some discussion about it in the Ziadon thread). Not yet sure if I am going to finish this map. If someone is interested in it, I might.

-------------------

Update: I think I will finish this map. Added another version with some different looking fields. Experimenting with them because the fields look a bit too bright. I toned down the colors somewhat.

landorl
12-19-2008, 11:22 PM
Wow, you can make CD3 sing. I haven't been able to use it that well, and keep ending up back at Photoshop. I like the program, but it just crashes too often for me!

JoeyD473
12-20-2008, 12:15 AM
I have to say, on my XP comp (this one) it (almost) never crashes on me. On my Laptop which is Vista it really likes to crash alot

Gandwarf
12-20-2008, 06:07 AM
I am using it under XP and it only crashes on the very large maps. But then it crashes a lot. I am used to saving the map after each series of changes and before moving or zooming in. I also save several files to make sure if a file gets corrupted or something I am not royally screwed (never had a corrupt file, but I like to feel safe).

But on the smaller maps I am experiencing no problems.

Gandwarf
12-21-2008, 02:40 PM
Well, I finished another generic city which I used to experiment with some stuff. I toned down the colors of the fields and added some bright market stands for a change. I even added flags to some of the towers - crazy, huh? :D
Just something I slapped together in an hour, so nothing spectacular.

Steel General
12-21-2008, 05:23 PM
I definitely like the newer, muted fields. Not so sure about the flags though.

Gandwarf
12-22-2008, 02:54 PM
I definitely like the newer, muted fields. Not so sure about the flags though.

Agreed, I don't like them either. But hey, is was fun to get a bit crazy :D

Now I just need another city to map. Something smaller again.

Steel General
12-22-2008, 06:07 PM
Look thru the CWBP threads, lots of cities that could be mapped in there.

Gandwarf
12-22-2008, 06:30 PM
Been experimenting some more, now with water effects. I think I stumbled onto something! Need to incorporate this in a bigger map :D

UPDATE: you can easily create these kinds of islands, see this post for the effects I used in City Designer 3:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showpost.php?p=59064&postcount=72

Midgardsormr
12-22-2008, 11:13 PM
If you don't have plans for this map, it could easily be Medre Isle Hallow in the Tawaren Basin (Map 14) for the CWBP. It would only be the second town mapped there.

Gandwarf
12-23-2008, 05:59 AM
If you don't have plans for this map, it could easily be Medre Isle Hallow in the Tawaren Basin (Map 14) for the CWBP. It would only be the second town mapped there.

I don't have plans for this map, it is just an experiment. So it can be used for the CWBP. I don't know exactly how the CWBP works and haven't taken the time to look into it...

aiRo25
12-25-2008, 11:37 AM
These are amazing! These kinds of results, I admit, are what made me want to use CC3 (until I saw all the add-ons I wanted). You're a master.

I hope sometime to be something as good. I love the detail and especially the water flow in Concetron.

Gandwarf
12-25-2008, 07:38 PM
Well, did another island. I don't need them for my fantasy world, but it's good practice I guess. If I throw down some palm trees I can use it for a pirate setting :P
I still love CD3, I can create a map like this in under half an hour...

JoeyD473
12-25-2008, 10:22 PM
Even for jus tplaying around you are so good with CD3. You should start writing some tutorials for it

Gandwarf
12-27-2008, 10:45 AM
Even for jus tplaying around you are so good with CD3. You should start writing some tutorials for it

Tutorials... hmm. I really don't feel secure enough to do those yet. I am sure I am still doing lots of stuff wrong. Is there anything you would like to reproduce in particular?

Anyway, I am working on Fierhout. This is a small city located on the shores of a lake (and some islands). It's not a very prosperous city, so no city walls this time. But there is a castle.

Trying out some of the island techniques from the last two maps.

Ascension
12-27-2008, 02:09 PM
That cluster of buildings on that island...the radiating out from a center is very evocative and very nice.

aiRo25
12-28-2008, 01:15 PM
I love the way you do islands. You make it look so easy. And ditto on the radiating buildings layout.

Gandwarf
12-29-2008, 08:35 AM
I love the way you do islands. You make it look so easy. And ditto on the radiating buildings layout.

Well, the islands are really easy. It's just a matter of drawing a polygon (so say 10 clicks an island). After that I turn on the custom effects I have been experimenting with (another click) and presto! That's the beauty of CD3. Once you get the hang of it you can map really fast.

Anyway, I am doing a lot of writing at the moment, so mapping is taking a hit for now. I will finish above map sometime in 2009 however :P

Gandwarf
12-29-2008, 12:47 PM
Oh, I did redo the town of Noordhaven this weekend. First attachment is the old map, the second is the new map. Still not happy with it, so I sense a third (fourth? fifth?) version coming.

Gandwarf
12-29-2008, 08:49 PM
The mapper in me won from the writer. Finished Fierhout, took about 2.5 hours total.
------------

Fierhout (Proudwood) is a small town located on the shores of a lake. As it name suggests the town was once founded near one of the largest forested areas in the Valley. After hundreds of years of cutting and mismanagement the forests disappeared.

Nowadays it is a pretty poor town. There's some farming going on along the fertile shores of the river and in the nearby mountains there are a few iron mines. Fierhout doesn't get a lot of traffic or trade. Still, the town did grow over the centuries. Some stone causeways were built along the islands and people settled there.

Fierhout has always belonged to the wizards of Concetron. It has now sworn allegiance to the Alliance.

Gandwarf
12-29-2008, 09:20 PM
Also, I finally figured out how to render my maps in huge dimensions (I saw Midgardsormr give some pointers to eoinmorgan). So I have put in hundreds of hours mapping and now I find out. It's really funny, as long as the map doesn't crash that is. Also rendering can be a bit slow, lol.

Version below is much bigger, although CC3 messed up some of my fields and walls *sniff*

Gandwarf
12-29-2008, 10:09 PM
I had a few breakthroughs tonight. I can now render ALL my maps in insane dimensions. No more cutting and pasting screenshots for me. w00t!
I updated the Sirilion map with a new, much larger version. Check it out:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3155

There's still some problems to overcome, but this is going to rock :P

Midgardsormr
12-29-2008, 10:49 PM
Also, I finally figured out how to render my maps in huge dimensions (I saw Midgardsormr give some pointers to eoinmorgan).

Oh geez, if I had realized that that was all you needed I'd have said something much earlier!

Gandwarf
12-29-2008, 10:54 PM
Oh geez, if I had realized that that was all you needed I'd have said something much earlier!

Haha! No, not everything. Most of my maps crash when trying to render from CC3 (even in lower dimensions). But your pointers made me experiment again and because of that I found a thread on the Profantasy forum how to circumvent the crash bug. So I am very grateful :)

Gandwarf
12-30-2008, 01:27 PM
I redid the map of Verena today. First attachment is the old map, second attachment is the new map. I think it's better, but there will probably be more versions.

jaerdaph
12-31-2008, 01:45 PM
Wow, Gandwarf - you've really taken the CD3 basic software and ran with it! Excellent work, and thanks for the inspiration. :)

Gandwarf
01-02-2009, 10:17 AM
Thanks Jaerdaph.

So which map of Verena is better? For me it's the latest version, but my fiancee thinks the first version is still better.

Steel General
01-02-2009, 10:47 AM
Though both are good, I prefer the latter because of the inclusion of terrain outside the settlement rather than the generic grey background.

jaerdaph
01-02-2009, 12:08 PM
I like the second map too - it looks like Verena is being depicted in winter, but I'm not sure that's the effect you were going for. I'd even be tempted to add some white polys on a sheet above the buildings and play around with the sheet effects to make it look like snow drifts. :)

Gandwarf
01-02-2009, 12:10 PM
Yes, Verena is depicted in winter. Verena lies outside the Valley in the region of eternal snow. So basically there's snow for almost the entire year. Only late spring or summer the temperature rises and the snow melts. To the north lie the great ice plains where everything dies. No, it's not really a nice place to live. But hey, the Valley was for centuries a very nasty place to live, with all the wizards ruling there. At least Verena had no wizard troubles :)
Most of stories are taking place in Verena, so it's an important town to me. That's why there's gonna be more versions I think.

I am not sure how to do snow drifts. Do you have some more specific tips?

jaerdaph
01-02-2009, 02:34 PM
As for snow drifts, I think you are on the right track in your Duisterpunt map, using similar techniques that used for hills in Zilvertop.

I was thinking perhaps adding some small white smooth polys to the building roofs (and maybe even the trees and bushes) and adding a slight bevel and outer and inner glows. That might get tricky when you take into consideration the roof shading and global sun...

Gandwarf
01-02-2009, 04:17 PM
Heh, I never added that effect consciously to Duisterpunt. Ah well, I will look into it, thanks :P

Finished another map today, the small town of Withoeve (Whitestead). It used to be the retreat of a wizard, but he was killed during the revolution. His manor is now occupied by a single family, that are living almost as nobles. The orchards are theirs as is most of the farmland. Not much else to say, as this is only a small town.

Steel General
01-02-2009, 05:15 PM
You are definitely becoming a master at this Gandwarf, very nice.

Gandwarf
01-02-2009, 07:19 PM
Couldn't resist tinkering with the map. I think this version is better, yes?

Nomadic
01-02-2009, 11:15 PM
These maps are amazing and really make me want to get CD3. The Zoutland one made me chuckle a bit. Is it by chance based off of Megiddo?

Gandwarf
01-03-2009, 07:04 AM
These maps are amazing and really make me want to get CD3. The Zoutland one made me chuckle a bit. Is it by chance based off of Megiddo?

Thanks, and no, it is not based on Megiddo. I never heard of that name before and had to Google it. So Megiddo is a hill where many battles took place, Zoutland and Megiddo have that in common I guess :)

Ascension
01-03-2009, 02:49 PM
Megiddo, aka Ar Megiddo, where we get the word Armageddon. I watch way too much History Channel. Hrm, gives me an idea...

Nomadic
01-03-2009, 03:17 PM
Thanks, and no, it is not based on Megiddo. I never heard of that name before and had to Google it. So Megiddo is a hill where many battles took place, Zoutland and Megiddo have that in common I guess :)

Many battles because of it's key location which means it switched hands too many times to truly build up. They similarities are uncanny. Again good work though.

Gamerprinter
01-03-2009, 03:32 PM
These maps are amazing and really make me want to get CD3.

FYI: Nomadic, CD3 is an add-on to ProFantasy's Campaign Cartographer 3, so you'll need that application as well. CD3 adds different toolsets that CC3 does not have on its own. Plus lots other stuff too.

In case you'd really like to try out, CD3 - I was sure you weren't aware. ;)

GP

Gandwarf
01-03-2009, 03:40 PM
FYI: Nomadic, CD3 is an add-on to ProFantasy's Campaign Cartographer 3, so you'll need that application as well. CD3 adds different toolsets that CC3 does not have on its own. Plus lots other stuff too.

In case you'd really like to try out, CD3 - I was sure you weren't aware. ;)

GP

Well, it never hurts to point this out. I saw a post on the Profantasy forum yesterday from someone who just bought CD3 and was wondering why it wasn't working :)

Gandwarf
01-03-2009, 08:51 PM
I picked up a new project for 2009. The first ever city map I did in CD3 was Concetron:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=2965

I am going to redo the map with the skills I picked up over the months. WIP below, this will probably be slow going.

*edit* I uploaded two versions. First is an export with PDF Creator. The second has been saved as a JPG from CD3. The second has better quality I think, but given the size of the map CD3 will probably soon start crashing when I save.

*edit 2* I am starting to like the first one better now :D

Nomadic
01-03-2009, 09:34 PM
FYI: Nomadic, CD3 is an add-on to ProFantasy's Campaign Cartographer 3, so you'll need that application as well. CD3 adds different toolsets that CC3 does not have on its own. Plus lots other stuff too.

In case you'd really like to try out, CD3 - I was sure you weren't aware. ;)

GP

Yea I looked it over and saw how it is an add on. I would love to try it but I don't have the money to afford it :( (now there's a contest prize I could go for heh).

Gandwarf
01-04-2009, 02:47 PM
I had a few hours to spare and this is the latest WIP. This map is going to take a lot of work, more work than any of my maps. My best bet is somewhere between 25-30 hours.

Gandwarf
01-04-2009, 08:00 PM
Latest WIP below. Made some great progress today, but unfortunately holiday is over and I have to go to work again tomorrow :P

Steel General
01-04-2009, 09:34 PM
Latest WIP below. Made some great progress today, but unfortunately holiday is over and I have to go to work again tomorrow :P

Don't we all.... :P

Korash
01-04-2009, 10:33 PM
looking great :), but I got a question for you...Just how tall are the outer walls? Judging by the shadows they are pretty tall. Much taller than most of your inner defenses or even the main building in the keep. Also by the shadows the towers are the same height of the walls.

Otherwise, looking great as usual.

Gandwarf
01-05-2009, 05:26 AM
looking great :), but I got a question for you...Just how tall are the outer walls? Judging by the shadows they are pretty tall. Much taller than most of your inner defenses or even the main building in the keep. Also by the shadows the towers are the same height of the walls.

Otherwise, looking great as usual.

I will have to tone down the wall shadows a bit in next version I guess, thanks :)

Nomadic
01-05-2009, 05:55 PM
Your shadows seem a little blurry and for some reason where the towers are creates a dark circular shadow inside the wall shadow. Anyhow, the layout is absolutely incredible and with every city I see I am trying harder and harder to resist the urge to buy the program.

Gandwarf
01-05-2009, 05:57 PM
I might have too much blur on the wall shadows as well ;)
Shadows are not my area of expertise. The overlapping shadows (tower and wall) is a CC3/CD3 problem I think.

Ascension
01-05-2009, 06:12 PM
I was thinking the same thing about the overlapping shadows being a CC3 thing. Since I don't have it I couldn't investigate it and I didn't want to say anything and sound stupid, since you know much more about it. There's a thread on the forums from the writers of the software about what to include fix, etc. in the next version...maybe drop a memo in there about how the shadows overlap and hence multiply. I'll see if I can dig it up...got it, it's the second sticky in the Software subforum.

Gandwarf
01-05-2009, 06:14 PM
Well if you can find the thread please let me know. Or if someone with CC3 knows a workaround...

Ascension
01-05-2009, 06:17 PM
Oh, sorry, I did, I just edited my last post...probably after you had read it...software discussion subforum.

Gandwarf
01-05-2009, 06:19 PM
Ah, you mean on THIS forum. Ok, but first I will probably drop a note on the Profantasy forums and explain my problem. Before I look like the idiot and I am doing something wrong with the shadows myself :)

Gandwarf
01-05-2009, 10:04 PM
Next WIP. Gave the map another huge push today and will probably be able to finish it this week. I am still messing around with the shadows. Oh, and I am messing around with labeling. Never labeled a map and what I have done now is really crude, I know :)
Just getting a feel for how it would look.

Steel General
01-06-2009, 07:56 AM
Keeping in mind that you are still in the early stages/experimenting with the labeling... I think the key/legend (whatever) is looking pretty good, not sure how many labels you plan on adding but you may want to decrease the size a bit, it tends (at least for me) to drag the eye away from the city which really is the focus.

Also (and again this may just be me) not a big fan of using red colored text as labels, especially with all the green on the map. For me it tends to 'bleed' into the background. Maybe if you add a stroke/glow/outline it might help. *shrugs*

Hoel
01-06-2009, 08:32 AM
I'm starting to look closer at fortifications, since they seem to feature on many maps but seldom gets commented.
Your walls seem good, they surround the whole city and have a castle inside.
A couple of things thou
-Would you rely on the hill only for defence north of old town and east of the harbour? I think the hill should have walls. It could be that parts of the old city walls was destroyed or dismantled on the hillside, so it's not essential.
-The southern road lacks a gatehouse and will be very hard to defend and since it's a long stretch of wall with a hole in it, it will be very weak.
-Same with the entrance to the castle, if the entrance is where i think it is

A gate is a hole in the wall and that makes it the weakest point. To make it tougher the builders almost always put a gatehouse over it, a thick, hard tower. The gatehouse had lots of nasty surprises for anyone trying to break down the gate.
The only gates that's frequently not defended like this are the sally gates, small gates in the back or an area that has other defences. Those gates were used for sallying forces that tried to drive off the attackers and were kept unused and often secret.
On another note, everyone has seen those big corner bastions on medieval castles. The purpose of those oversized or hanging towers was so the defenders could get an angle on the walls to either side. Later the star fortress was invented where the towers were lower but the anle of the walls was made to minimize the uncovered wall sections.

Gandwarf
01-06-2009, 11:29 AM
Hoel, thanks for spreading your knowledge. You definitely have some interesting ideas, some of which I might pick up. Keep in mind though the map isn't finished yet.

I am going to add one or two fortresses and gatehouses in the southern wall. Also Concetron is protected to the north by the fortress city of Meerzicht and to the south by the castle at Ravenburcht. It was quite well defended. Also there used to be wizards ruling the city and they would make it very hard for an army to take the walls or sit out there. Confrontation between wizards were rare, so battles used to be very interesting... mostly just men fighting each other. Or in the case of a siege, lots of men trying to take a city where lots of other men and wizards were holed up. Most of the times it was slaughter :)

Last but not least, the city has grown too big over the last decades. Some of its defences are no longer up to par and the current garrison has far too much wall to protect.

*edit*: the castle inside the walls is the palace. Although it would be able to withstand a siege it wasn't really built with that in mind. The walls are decorated for example and the palace itself has gold domed roofs. The place is locked down by the elite guard of the Alliance government so it's difficult to enter if you are an intruder. In the past the wizards lived there and most people didn't even want to go near (except maybe if they tried to assasinate them, but the wizards had many guards as well).

Gandwarf
01-06-2009, 11:44 AM
Keeping in mind that you are still in the early stages/experimenting with the labeling... I think the key/legend (whatever) is looking pretty good, not sure how many labels you plan on adding but you may want to decrease the size a bit, it tends (at least for me) to drag the eye away from the city which really is the focus.

Also (and again this may just be me) not a big fan of using red colored text as labels, especially with all the green on the map. For me it tends to 'bleed' into the background. Maybe if you add a stroke/glow/outline it might help. *shrugs*

Thanks for the feedback! I will experiment some more. The red labels stand out a lot and that is something I like. But I am not finished with it yet.

Hoel
01-06-2009, 12:19 PM
Well. If you're going to go to the trouble of building a wall in the first place (it's a huge project) you will use every advantage you get. They're more likely to exclude the poor suburbs to save on wall lenght then build over capacity.
If it's supposed to be defended from other cities they wouldn't have the inner walls since they're there to protract the siege. A city that relies on outside force to defend itself will have an outside wall that can hold long enough to let the relief force get there.
Gatehouses are more or less essential thou.

Wizards in a battle would in my imagination be like heavy arillery but wouldn't really change the siege much.
I think high fantasy magig would push the fortification tech forward quite fast. The medieval high walls sould be very vulnerable to hard impacts from magic, and the modern low sloping walls would be more effective.

But the best defence/offence in a magic heavy world would be to have a mage on your side as well. There would be a mage battle with the infantry and cav as spectators. Until the mages were burnt out and the proper normal siege would begin.

I drew a quick example on how, with a small investment you could get it well fortified. You have some walls that serves no use for example.
Your walls are green, my examples are red and yellow.

Don't think I demand this of you, but with a bit more investment they could have made their city defences much more effective. Since they've aldready made the whole outer wall to the north..

Gandwarf
01-06-2009, 12:52 PM
I like this discussion and I agree with you the city could have been more fortified. This is something I did deliberately, I need it for my story.

- Building the wall was a huge project yes, but there were quarries nearby and the wizards had thousands of slaves. The wizards needed to keep their people busy. So they also dug out canals that were not really needed!
- At one time the walls were more meant to keep people in than to keep people out :)
- Walls have been torn down over the years.
- There are actually poor suburbs in the city, but those were formed over the years as the wealth of the city fluctuated. The current rulers would like to "bulldoze" the Rats Quarter, but they don't want thousands of angry, poor people in their city (there are already thousands of very angry refugees in the lands surrounding the city).
- The wizards in my world can manipulate their surroundings but they cannot break the laws of nature. So they can stop a heart beating in a man's chest for example, but not create food from thin air. The more people around, the more powerful they were. It's hard to siege a city if hundreds of your buddies just bend over and drop dead all of a sudden :)
They are not really heavy artillery as they couldn't just let stone explode for example.
- Wizards fighting each other were very rare, as they are as vulnerable as any man. An arrow to their back kills them. Magic fights were VERY unpredictable and so dangerous (mostly over in seconds) no sane wizard would risk it unless cornered. The wizards of my world are the knights from the Dark Ages. Clashes between knights were rare and they tried to avoid confrontations. They used to ride up to each others peasants and slaughter those. That's much more fun and you don't risk getting hurt.
So wizards sieging other wizards in a city were very, very rare. The walls are just a precaution to make sure enemy soldiers are not suddenly in the streets (and the city can be better defended when the wizards are not there).

Oh, and I love fortress cities. Check out the town I grew up in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Brielle_vesting_20050518.jpg

*edit* About wizards fighting: if two wizards would confront each other, the wizard who first stopped the other wizards heart would win. There's no counter spell or anything. No magical shields. It's mind magic, manipulation. If you are dead, you are dead. So in general the wizard who acts first wins. That's why the wizards didn't like open confrontations. They avoided each other like the plague. But they were also very envious of each other and would use armies, agents and to some extent lesser wizards to confront each other. Also, most wizards have no way to "sense" if another person is a wizard. So they were very powerful people, but also very afraid of each other and other people trying to kill them.

Hoel
01-06-2009, 01:59 PM
Ok. I was thinking D&D style wizards with fireballs and earthquakes.
Nice fortress, I'd say late 1600s? Probably built in time for the dutch republic. I would call it italian style, but since it's dutch it's probably from the dutch school. Looks a bit like kastellet in copenhagen.
Tonight I'm going to get to work on my map of the new-german-school fortress of Carlsborg.

Gandwarf
01-06-2009, 06:41 PM
I finished up Concetron. See the finished map section:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?p=43309#post43309

This map took a lot of blood, sweat and tears :)

Gandwarf
01-07-2009, 07:17 PM
I started redoing Meerzicht today.(http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=2976&highlight=meerzicht)

Not sure if I am going to finish this however. The layout doesn't feel right. Maybe Hoel has some good suggestions as this city should be a fortress :)
I do have lots of elements I need because of my story.

Also the Concetron map turned out so well I think that it's going to be hard to do something better. And that's what I am striving for.

Hoel
01-07-2009, 07:54 PM
Ok, here's the verdict from the field engineers office
-Good central court. You would want to add a keep (basically a big tower, or castle). Those two makes the inner defences, fort and baily.
-Then you have the second layer. It should go in towards the harbour instead of out. Think as each layer, counting from the keep, as a separate court. Two serious bastions would anchor the line.
-Then you have three courts, one for each road, that's good. Keeps the defence on a smaller surface.
-The two square courts on the flanks are more or less useless. Put a big bastion in each corner instead.
-To add to the defences, if this is supposed to be a real fortress, and not a fortified city, add small courtyards behind each gatehouse to make a killzone for anyone who breaches the gates. The consider the way an attacker moves inside the fort. If he can move outside the range of the defenders on the walls, then he will be able slow his attack and bring in reinforcements.
-Try to limit the area that is the actual fortress. if the city isn't the primary reason for the fort, then let them live outside the walls, or a ring wall outside to protect the city, then put everything else into the fortress and keep.

Overall, it's a bit square and boxy. Use the terrain to augment the walls, a wall on a hill is much more defensible than a wall on flat ground. The terrain is seldom flat, so the walls shouldn't be either.
Depending on the tech level of your world, use more and more star shaped defences... That's all off the top of my head, I'll add more when I see what you make of it.
I think I'm going to have to make that essay on fortification after all...

Midgardsormr
01-07-2009, 08:48 PM
I think I'm going to have to make that essay on fortification after all...

Please do if you have the time and energy. The subject is one I have long intended to research, and having a nice article here to springboard from would be very welcome.

Steel General
01-08-2009, 09:24 AM
Heck, I'd even be happy with some kind of simple 'checklist' of do's & don'ts for fortifications. I have several I'd like to do for the CWBP.

Gandwarf
01-08-2009, 10:12 AM
Ok, here's the verdict from the field engineers office
-Good central court. You would want to add a keep (basically a big tower, or castle). Those two makes the inner defences, fort and baily.
-Then you have the second layer. It should go in towards the harbour instead of out. Think as each layer, counting from the keep, as a separate court. Two serious bastions would anchor the line.
-Then you have three courts, one for each road, that's good. Keeps the defence on a smaller surface.
-The two square courts on the flanks are more or less useless. Put a big bastion in each corner instead.
-To add to the defences, if this is supposed to be a real fortress, and not a fortified city, add small courtyards behind each gatehouse to make a killzone for anyone who breaches the gates. The consider the way an attacker moves inside the fort. If he can move outside the range of the defenders on the walls, then he will be able slow his attack and bring in reinforcements.
-Try to limit the area that is the actual fortress. if the city isn't the primary reason for the fort, then let them live outside the walls, or a ring wall outside to protect the city, then put everything else into the fortress and keep.

Overall, it's a bit square and boxy. Use the terrain to augment the walls, a wall on a hill is much more defensible than a wall on flat ground. The terrain is seldom flat, so the walls shouldn't be either.
Depending on the tech level of your world, use more and more star shaped defences... That's all off the top of my head, I'll add more when I see what you make of it.
I think I'm going to have to make that essay on fortification after all...

Thanks Hoel, I will try to follow your leads. The city does lie in flat terrain however, so I can't really use the terrain. Also the city needs two bastions/keeps and a central castle.

jfrazierjr
01-08-2009, 10:22 AM
Given the size of the docks, it does not look like this is a heavy naval town, so I would highly suggest walling off the harbor area and waterway access to the city. A couple of longboarts in the dead of night could sneak tons of invaders into the city proper....

Hoel
01-08-2009, 10:35 AM
You're right. Building walls all along the shore would be good. Some channels from the lake could be dug around the outer walls for a moat too.

If the two courts at the flanks would act as bastions they shouldn't be as big. Build upwards like super-heavy towers instead, or a series of interconnected towers. They should be able to withstand heavy enemy bombardment, since they're right on the outside. You can use different thickness of walls too. The walls on the inside shouldn't be subjected to artillery and just be there to halt the attacker and provide a platform for the defender's ranged weapons.
I started the essay too, it's in the tut board

jfrazierjr
01-08-2009, 11:07 AM
At a bare minimum, you would want something like this( I just used plain grey lines for the walls and Black for the towers to make it quick. 9001

Not sure if the waterway inlet is used for large ships or not, but if not, then build the wall across if possible or use an arch with some type of gate if boats need to pass from the inner waterway to the sea.

Of course, this
9002
is a much better design in terms of defensibility of that waterway. This is especially true if you can have an arch at both points to allow small boat traffic into the inner waterway, but want to still be defensible.

You could even go one more extreme and have the Tower right beside the harbor form a wall to the right side and have entrance to the actual docks them selves have a pair of towers and gate for even further security before they get into the dock ward proper.

Gandwarf
01-09-2009, 03:18 PM
Thanks for the feedback so far. I think I am going for this shape, now that I read Hoel's fortification thread:

- The city is protected by a castle and two round keeps.
- The castle and keeps can cover all the exterior walls.
- The castle is protected by a moat, the keeps are round to make the walls harder to collapse.
- All exterior gates have a gatehouse and a small court behind it.
- Each exterior gate leads to a walled of part of the city.
- Entrances to the keeps are never in the same part of the city as an exterior gate.
- Lots of extruding towers to cover the walls.

So what do you think? I haven't placed any building yet, because when I do it will be harder to move stuff around.

jfrazierjr
01-09-2009, 03:37 PM
Thanks for the feedback so far. I think I am going for this shape, now that I read Hoel's fortification thread:

- The city is protected by a castle and two round keeps.
- The castle and keeps can cover all the exterior walls.
- The castle is protected by a moat, the keeps are round to make the walls harder to collapse.
- All exterior gates have a gatehouse and a small court behind it.
- Each exterior gate leads to a walled of part of the city.
- Entrances to the keeps are never in the same part of the city as an exterior gate.
- Lots of extruding towers to cover the walls.

So what do you think? I haven't placed any building yet, because when I do it will be harder to move stuff around.

Question: whats the castle for? Thinking in terms of the layout you have, it appears to be in a weak point since (even though theres a moat) 2 walls are exposed to the surrounding countryside. If the castle is important, they would build out and around it if at all possible as they want that the last place breached. At the most, an attacker would have to get through 2 gates to storm the castle.

BTW, I prefer the geography of the original layout better.

Gandwarf
01-09-2009, 03:42 PM
The castle is mainly there to oversee the harbor and protect it. It's not the most important place. The whole city is one huge castle actually :)

But I might still move it to the center of the city as the place to make a last stand.

Gandwarf
01-09-2009, 03:54 PM
Ok, you have convinced me ;)
I will probably go for something like this. Makes much more sense to have the castle as the last retreat.

I want the two outer keeps to cover all the walls, meaning the courtyards to the east and west stay small.

jfrazierjr
01-09-2009, 03:54 PM
The castle is mainly there to oversee the harbor and protect it. It's not the most important place. The whole city is one huge castle actually :)

But I might still move it to the center of the city as the place to make a last stand.

Ah... understood.

PS: I still like your original geography.;)

Gandwarf
01-09-2009, 03:56 PM
Yeah, so look at the post before yours :) We made a post at the same time...
I think I am going back to the original layout...

jfrazierjr
01-09-2009, 03:59 PM
Ok, you have convinced me ;)
I will probably go for something like this. Makes much more sense to have the castle as the last retreat.

YES!!!! My Jedi mind trick worked! Strong in the force I am, hmmmm?

Gandwarf
01-09-2009, 04:01 PM
YES!!!! My Jedi mind trick worked! Strong in the force I am, hmmmm?

The force is with you, young jfrazierj, but you are not a jedi yet.

Gandwarf
01-09-2009, 07:18 PM
Well, I am going to finish this version of the map. Too late now to move any of the walls :)
As you can see I am placing the houses in a defensive grid. Only one direct route from gate to gate so the enemy can be peppered with arrows from the houses, roofs or walls.

Nomadic
01-09-2009, 08:04 PM
Well, I am going to finish this version of the map. Too late now to move any of the walls :)
As you can see I am placing the houses in a defensive grid. Only one direct route from gate to gate so the enemy can be peppered with arrows from the houses, roofs or walls.

Nice, though I personally would make the road to the inner gates and keeps non-direct. That forces an invading force to weave through the houses. That means a longer path and more chances for ambushes.

Gandwarf
01-09-2009, 08:12 PM
Nice, though I personally would make the road to the inner gates and keeps non-direct. That forces an invading force to weave through the houses. That means a longer path and more chances for ambushes.

Well, I thought about that before putting down the roads. The straight line for the gates is actually the ambush :)
Enemies that take the straight line can be peppered with arrows from all sides. From houses, froms rooftops, from the walls. If the enemy is reckless and they push too far too fast, they can also be surpised from behind.
And a well trained force with pikes for example can hold off the enemy, while archers are behind it (won't work if there are lots of twisty roads). Besides that I wanted the troops from the city to be able to quickly pull back and not get trapped in all the different alleys. City fighting can get very nasty for both sides.
A straight line also favors a cavalry charge, though that can work both for and against the enemy of course.

Besides that, although this is a fortress, it still gets a lot of trade.

*edit* I got this idea from the urban renewal of Paris in the 19th century. Paris was mostly a medieval city before that, but the city was greatly renovated. A lot of large boulevards were created. This made fast troop movement possible and the straightness also helped artillery.
(it wasn't really done to protect from outside enemies, but more to protect against rebellious citizens :) )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Paris

Gandwarf
01-09-2009, 09:32 PM
Last WIP for now. I think I am at 50%. Placing the houses and farmland gets a bit tedious, so need to chill now.

Nomadic
01-09-2009, 11:05 PM
And a well trained force with pikes for example can hold off the enemy, while archers are behind it (won't work if there are lots of twisty roads).


Just a small thing here but a main road that switches back on itself actually makes it easier to hold off the enemy with pikemen. It also allows for surprise cavalry charges. The point in this aspect is to have a long straight road that then switches back on itself and is long and straight again. The enemy forces are at risk each time they turn the corner of being flanked by pikemen or charging cavalry (who only have to deal with a small section of the invading force as opposed to the entire force at once). The longer road also makes a retreat easier as the enemy has to go farther to reach the next gate (meaning more points for rooftop archers to harass them from while friendly forces fall back).

Hoel
01-10-2009, 05:48 AM
Switchbacks, spiraling roads and entries are good for defence. The archers shoulnd't be on the ground in the first place.
I think it works anyway. Sometimes you have to make allowances for the normal city life, planned fortified cities can have straight roads.
One thing thou. If you turn the gatehouse to the main keep to the south, you will force the enemy around the moat, it's practically made for the entrance being there, covered from the south by a big tower

Gandwarf
01-10-2009, 06:48 AM
Well, see the straight roads more of a way to quickly dispatch troops somewhere. This might be to outside the fortress or one of the gatehouses under attack for example. Meerzicht was meant to protect Westdiep and Concetron, but it's also a troop headquarters, meaning if there is trouble anywhere, soldiers would be dispatched from Meerzicht. Also, I am thinking in times of siege that they would be able to throw up barricades by for example using carts and rubble. The straight roads are the most obvious way into the city, but really, you don't want to use them in times of siege. They are meant to draw the enemy in. But as the city has several strong points (two keeps and a castle) where mayor troop concentrations are, it also means that the attacking force can suddenly find defending soldiers at his back.
And I think straight roads are really better for artillery as they need to be able to see their targets from far away. Artillery being archers, ballistas, wizards(they need to see the enemy to kill), etc.

I am not sure if I am going to move the gatehouse of the castle to the south. I think the north is more safe. There it has at least two walls before it. To the south there is only one wall in the harbor! And I want that square in front of the castle to be a bottleneck where defenders can come from all sides if the attackers didn't take their time to really lockdown the city. And locking down this city will be difficult. It can be surrounded of course, but the city of Concetron is to the southeast and if that city still stands the enemy would suddenly find a large army behind itself.

And because the castle hosts the city officials, I also wanted them to have easy access to the road system. Now they can make their grand entry over the larger roads and the big square :)

Thanks for the feedback, you are still making me think about stuff. And as you noticed I can be influenced ;)
But right now I am leaving the layout as it is, otherwise I will never finish this map. Realism is good and I think I can defend most of my choices, but this is still a fantasy map :)

Nomadic
01-10-2009, 07:11 AM
Well, see the straight roads more of a way to quickly dispatch troops somewhere. This might be to outside the fortress or one of the gatehouses under attack for example. Meerzicht was meant to protect Westdiep and Concetron, but it's also a troop headquarters, meaning if there is trouble anywhere, soldiers would be dispatched from Meerzicht. Also, I am thinking in times of siege that they would be able to throw up barricades by for example using carts and rubble. The straight roads are the most obvious way into the city, but really, you don't want to use them in times of siege. They are meant to draw the enemy in. But as the city has several strong points (two keeps and a castle) where mayor troop concentrations are, it also means that the attacking force can suddenly find defending soldiers at his back.
And I think straight roads are really better for artillery as they need to be able to see their targets from far away. Artillery being archers, ballistas, wizards(they need to see the enemy to kill), etc.

I am not sure if I am going to move the gatehouse of the castle to the south. I think the north is more safe. There it has at least two walls before it. To the south there is only one wall in the harbor! And I want that square in front of the castle to be a bottleneck where defenders can come from all sides if the attackers didn't take their time to really lockdown the city. And locking down this city will be difficult. It can be surrounded of course, but the city of Concetron is to the southeast and if that city still stands the enemy would suddenly find a large army behind itself.

And because the castle hosts the city officials, I also wanted them to have easy access to the road system. Now they can make their grand entry over the larger roads and the big square :)

Thanks for the feedback, you are still making me think about stuff. And as you noticed I can be influenced ;)
But right now I am leaving the layout as it is, otherwise I will never finish this map. Realism is good and I think I can defend most of my choices, but this is still a fantasy map :)

It's no problem, I am like Hoel in that I like to inject a bit of real world into fantasy discussions such as this. It's easier to suspend disbelief when the stuff is grounded in realism. The only other thing I have to say is a minor nitpick. Artillery actually doesn't need to see the enemy (it's better that it doesn't because if it can, then the enemies artillery can see it too). Artillery is better with a spotter on a tower or rooftop who can direct fire without the 'big guns' becoming targets themselves.

Regardless though, it is a very good map. The layout is clean and easy to understand. It is also realistic enough that I seriously doubt your players will notice the discrepancies (well unless they are like us :P ). Good job.

Gandwarf
01-10-2009, 07:17 AM
It's no problem, I am like Hoel in that I like to inject a bit of real world into fantasy discussions such as this. It's easier to suspend disbelief when the stuff is grounded in realism. The only other thing I have to say is a minor nitpick. Artillery actually doesn't need to see the enemy (it's better that it doesn't because if it can, then the enemies artillery can see it too). Artillery is better with a spotter on a tower or rooftop who can direct fire without the 'big guns' becoming targets themselves.

Regardless though, it is a very good map. The layout is clean and easy to understand. It is also realistic enough that I seriously doubt your players will notice the discrepancies (well unless they are like us :P ). Good job.

You can't expect artillery to hit enemies on winding roads between buildings. Even archers will have a very hard time to hit enemies, unless they are basically on top of them. As soon as you get in narrow streets and between buildings your artillery is useless.

So a straight line in the city is really better for artillery! One of the reasons why Paris got such large avenues. It would be easier for cannons and muskets to mow down the enemy.

Hoel
01-10-2009, 07:54 AM
The Parisian boulevards are meant for direct line of sight fire from short range muskets and field artillery. In a siege we're talking archers who fire indirect most of the time (for range) or direct from walls into oncoming attackers. We're also talking siege engines, from the catapult and onager to the huge trebuchets, and they fire indirectly, hurling stones and fire in arcs over the walls (one of the reasons to build high walls). The siege engines are a part of the process of besieging a fortress, trying to kill and demoralise the defenders. They are also used to breach the wall. After the wall has been breached and the attackers storm the fort, they will become less useful since the extrem inaccuracy of those weapons make them prone to hit friends and foes alike.
Defenders can use siege engines too. They were sometimes mounted on top of towers, an sometimes in courtyards. They would do much the same as the attackers weapons, trying to kill and demoralise the enemy. When the enemy forces assault the fortress, you can't very well fire into your own fortress with siege weapons, since their targets would right next to them. The defending forces would rely on infantry and archers, and sometimes cavalry (if they had long, broad and straight passages), but cavalry in confined spaces are very ineffective, the cavalry would more likely to be used for sallies and raids against the siege lines.
If you're going for a late medieval world with gunpowder weapons, the prospect becomes somewhat different.

Dispatching troops through a city is more effective on straight roads, but a fortress is not a city. A fortress is confined and can use alternate routes that the enemy can't use.For example; walls can have galleries inside them for just that purpose and reserves would be deployed and redirected for quick reinforcements in critical areas.

And Paris is a bad example since it's not a fortress or fortified city in that regard.
Take a look at some fortified city or fortress and you'll se winding, spiraling streets with lots of small courtyards forming killing grounds.
Civlian buildings in a fortress would be counter productive, but they can exist outside the fortress itself and be protected by a city wall. Military buildings would mostly be built up against the wall for protection and often very small to fit in the cramped spaces needed for defence, or they would be built into the walls, towers or other parts of the fortress itself.
But since it's your map, you should do as you please and as I said before, there can be consessions to the civilian population that wants straight roads for trade to move on.

Gandwarf
01-10-2009, 08:10 AM
Well, this city does have trebuchets and onagers on the walls and towers. And I agree with you those are really ineffectice once the enemy is in the city.

I was thinking more like ballistas. Even ballista-like machines that can fire hundreds of darts at once. They need to be fired into a straight line, but once fired into a troop of enemies confined in a small space they will wreak havoc. Think machinegun! Ballistas can be more easily moved as well, so they can be pulled out once the enemy gets too near. This world also has crossbows, which are very deadly even against heavily armored targets, and take almost no skill to fire (although reloading can get tricky). Although crossbows can be fired almost everywhere, ballistas certainly can't. If the enemy is too close the machine will be overrun and it can be used against you.

And Meerzicht is a fortress, but also a large city. It houses thousands of people. So yeah, they would want to be able to move about and trade as well. Being a troop headquarters it also needs to be able to very quickly dispatch troops. Either by road or by ship.

It's a fantasy world, so there's medieval technology, but also some better technology. And there are wizards. The fact even is that while most of my cities are fortified to some extent, most have never been sieged, as the wizards inside deterred many. So fortification technology might even be a bit behind, because a lot of designs have never really been tested and are more there to deter. Most of the larger cities got so big they couldn't be well defended once sieges starting happening and I used that on numerous occassions in my books. Otherwise the wizards would never have been defeated :P

Gandwarf
01-10-2009, 08:24 AM
Something I think we can all agree on:
Yes, the city has it flaws. But I am designing a fantasy city that should also look good. And I think it looks good this way :)

(And I think I will use some of your ideas for another fortress I am going to create, the city of Tweeberg to the south. That city has seen a lof of sieging and warfare).

Hoel
01-10-2009, 08:30 AM
I think you should go ahead, it doesn't look too unreal to break the suspension of disbelief, and there is a history to the city and the world that explains it.
Imposing harsh real-world judgement on a fantasy world is never good, but it should be in the back of ones head to weed out the more laboured justifications.

Gandwarf
01-10-2009, 08:31 AM
I think you should go ahead, it doesn't look too unreal to break the suspension of disbelief, and there is a history to the city and the world that explains it.
Imposing harsh real-world judgement on a fantasy world is never good, but it should be in the back of ones head to weed out the more laboured justifications.

Agreed, but I am learning a lot of these discussions and they are fun. They are a way for me to try some ideas and have an audience :)

Nomadic
01-10-2009, 09:14 AM
Yea, all I am trying to drill into you is that if you want to use real world rationale then you should always do your research so that you know your rationale works like you think it does. You don't have to of course, a wizard did it is perfectly valid. Just remember to separate the wizards from the researchers (they don't get along well).

Gandwarf
01-10-2009, 09:21 AM
Yea, all I am trying to drill into you is that if you want to use real world rationale then you should always do your research so that you know your rationale works like you think it does. You don't have to of course, a wizard did it is perfectly valid. Just remember to separate the wizards from the researchers (they don't get along well).

That's the reason I am doing a fantasy novel. I can do bad research and blame it all on magic :P

Gandwarf
01-10-2009, 10:04 AM
Next WIP, most of the city is now complete. I just need to add more farms and houses. I want the area between the city walls and farmland to be empty, but it's looking a bit weird. Then again, I am used to cramming my maps full of stuff.

I will probably finish this map in 2 or 3 days.

Hoel
01-10-2009, 10:23 AM
If you want, you could put a dry moat or ditch in there. And maybe series of blockhouses

Gandwarf
01-10-2009, 10:26 AM
Yeah, I thought about a dry moat... with you suggesting it I might place it.
Problem is, I have written extensively about Meerzicht in my novels and it doesn't have a dry moat there ;)

Hoel
01-10-2009, 10:51 AM
"Oh bother" I think the term is.
Why shouldn't the fields go all the way to the walls? They don't provide don't block the line of fire for the defenders after all.
But think you could keep the area empty if you like, it doesn't look wrong to me.

Midgardsormr
01-10-2009, 12:22 PM
It was common in the Middle Ages for a lord to designate a certain amount of space around the walls of a castle as pasture. No farming plots were granted there, and the lord received a tax for each animal put to pasture in that area. I'm not sure how that would work for a city, though. For one thing, the longer wall means a heck of a lot more pasturage, and the typical existence of a middle class in a city usually limited the powers of the lord to collect the more extortion-like taxes.

Even so, I can think of several reasons why farms might be forbidden within a certain distance from the walls. Religious, city planning, aesthetic, tradition, economic warfare on the part of landowners, etc. Is there a specific reason for it in this case?

Gandwarf
01-10-2009, 12:26 PM
I think I will go with pasture lands, at least for some of the area. That is a nice idea, thanks. Maybe I'll put in a low stone wall or hedge to make sure the cattle don't escape.

They would want the area to be as clear as possible to make sure attacking forces are out in the open and can't use cover.

Gandwarf
01-10-2009, 08:43 PM
A real quick update (just snapped a screenshot in CD3). I decided to go with a dry moat and I added some pastureland. I don't want enemies digging from the moat to the lake, because the moat would then flood with water and could potentially freeze later, so I added a protruding platform with two towers on each side. Attackers would now have to dig along the protruding wall to connect the lake to the moat.

The platforms can be used to shoot at attackers all along the wall as well and the platform wall is thick enough to withstand rams or siege engines for a long time.

So thanks for the tips Hoel and Midgard :)

Steel General
01-10-2009, 08:49 PM
This is really turning out to be quite a cool one Gandwarf, great job.

Hoel
01-10-2009, 09:28 PM
The moat looks great. Glad you added it.
I've really enjoyed the discussion in this thread

Nomadic
01-11-2009, 03:28 AM
Looks good. Just remember that the moat makes it easier to undermine the walls. That's not a problem though unless a large and capable enemy attacks (one strong enough to hold the moat). Of course by that point the city is going to fall without reinforcements anyways. You could actually incorporate that into a game/story. On another note, not that you could really map it, but an effective counter to undermining would be a way to flood the moat. Anyhow, that's my 2cp. Again, it's looking wonderful.

Gandwarf
01-11-2009, 05:41 AM
Thanks Nomadic. Moats do indeed have a weak point. But I read that to prevent sappers walls sometimes had a strong foundation underground. A moat with water makes sapping almost impossible, but if it freezes the enemy can assault the walls with ladders, rams and towers. A dry moat prevents most of that. Choices, choices :)

Gandwarf
01-11-2009, 06:54 AM
Well another quick update and I fear the last for today. Haven't made much progress and it looks like the map will still take a couple of days to finish. The CD3 gods are not very kind to me right now as the map crashes about 30 times an hour. I do think it's about 80% finished. I just need to place few hundred more farms. Ack!

Nomadic
01-11-2009, 07:30 AM
Thanks Nomadic. Moats do indeed have a weak point. But I read that to prevent sappers walls sometimes had a strong foundation underground. A moat with water makes sapping almost impossible, but if it freezes the enemy can assault the walls with ladders, rams and towers. A dry moat prevents most of that. Choices, choices :)

You could always clear off the ice and slick it down with a Zamboni then sit on the walls and laugh with your troops as the enemy force entertains you with a depiction of "The siege of Meerzicht on ice".

Hoel
01-11-2009, 08:08 AM
If you put real effort into building the moat you should have at least 1-2m from the edge of the moat to the surface when filled. With a straight sides, that should make it somewhat useful even when frozen.

jaspertjie
01-11-2009, 11:06 AM
Well another quick update and I fear the last for today. Haven't made much progress and it looks like the map will still take a couple of days to finish. The CD3 gods are not very kind to me right now as the map crashes about 30 times an hour. I do think it's about 80% finished. I just need to place few hundred more farms. Ack!


I draw maps much bigger then this but I must say that this is very Impressive.

Gandwarf
01-11-2009, 11:24 AM
I draw maps much bigger then this but I must say that this is very Impressive.

Thanks. So scan your maps and post them on our forum :)

joćo paulo
01-11-2009, 02:03 PM
I miss a river on your map.

Gandwarf
01-11-2009, 02:04 PM
Not all cities are located near rivers :)

joćo paulo
01-11-2009, 02:20 PM
Guaranteed

http://www.vivercidades.org.br/publique222/media/cidMedieval_paris.jpg

http://www.vivercidades.org.br/publique222/media/cidMedieval_muralha.jpg

http://www.vivercidades.org.br/publique222/media/cidMedieval_moinho.jpg

Hoel
01-11-2009, 03:13 PM
Where did you find the top picture? I'd love to see that in high res with all the numbers explained.
What city btw?

Gandwarf
01-11-2009, 04:30 PM
Nice pictures indeed! Still, 3 pictures don't convince me all cities started near rivers ;)

Gandwarf
01-11-2009, 08:27 PM
I finished Meerzicht. I just had to get this map out of my system before the weekend ends:

http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?p=44108

Gandwarf
01-11-2009, 08:46 PM
Also, I think I am going to take a break from mapping again. That last map took a piece out of my soul I guess :D I only wanted to invest about 6 hours and in the end it became like 20 or even more.

I'll resurrect this thread sooner of later.

seeker
01-12-2009, 11:22 PM
Where did you find the top picture? I'd love to see that in high res with all the numbers explained.
What city btw?
looks like paris

Gandwarf
01-14-2009, 06:10 PM
No new maps, but I am labelling some of my older maps. Several people on this forum asked me to label my maps and now I can see why. It really adds something.

Hoel
01-14-2009, 06:19 PM
I just love your little towns Gandwarf. I need to sell something so i can buy CC and CD.

Gandwarf
01-14-2009, 06:22 PM
I just love your little towns Gandwarf. I need to sell something so i can buy CC and CD.

Says the guy who is making pieces of art in Photoshop :)

Nomadic
01-14-2009, 06:33 PM
I just love your little towns Gandwarf. I need to sell something so i can buy CC and CD.

Me too. I personally would love to have him map my cities. I want to get CC and CD myself, but that's 80-90 dollars that I don't have right now.

Hoel
01-14-2009, 06:52 PM
Hey, if I can make beautiful cities in PS, and you can make beautiful cities in CD, let's get married and make beautiful little villages together :)
Seriously, I'm thinking how awsome it would look to merge the planning, roof tools and speed of CD with the brushes, textures and lighting of PS.
Just the roof tools alone would kick ass you know.

Gandwarf
01-15-2009, 07:02 AM
Also I have messaged a bit with one the creators of Campaign Cartographer. Now I know why the anti-aliasing of CC3 is bad: they really haven't implemented any anti-aliasing. They had problems with the performance. So their advice is to create maps in Campaign Cartographer, but then resize them in other software. A bit of a shame, but now that I can export my maps in huge dimensions it's not a problem for me anymore.

Nomadic, I replied to your questions about CC3/CD3 in the software discussion thread.

Oh, my Concetron map was posted on Simon Roger's blog (the creator I was messaging with):
http://simonjrogers.livejournal.com/
He plugged the Cartographer's Guild for me :)

And I got a guy that asked me if I was willing to a paid commission to create a map for him. That was quite a shock and totally unexpected. Even flattering I must say. But I had to turn him down. This is a hobby for me and I don't want to feel any pressure.

Steel General
01-15-2009, 08:38 AM
Congrats Gandwarf... well deserved!

Hoel
01-15-2009, 09:44 AM
Yeah. You deserve the recognition!

Gandwarf
01-16-2009, 01:56 PM
As several people asked for tutorials I decide to do some:

http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3983

joćo paulo
01-17-2009, 04:21 PM
looks like paris

You hit!
Sorry, but not found in HiHes
Here (http://www.vivercidades.org.br/publique222/cgi/cgilua.exe/sys/start.htm?infoid=877&sid=19)

Gandwarf
01-17-2009, 05:55 PM
Some more nice maps in that article joao paulo, thanks for linking!
Don't miss this thread either:
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3997
It contains a link to hundreds of medieval city maps. Very happy I found that one.

Anyway... I am getting some itching again. I think I will start to map another great city soon. The city of Miston, rival of Concetron. A city that based its power on huge herds of cattle and a cavalry with a legendary reputation. Probably 30+ hours again :P

jaspertjie
01-26-2009, 11:57 AM
I just love your little towns Gandwarf. I need to sell something so i can buy CC and CD.

How much do they cost anyway???

Hoel
01-26-2009, 01:23 PM
about 40 bucks each...
Well... in a *very* nice turn of events i actually got $3000 from my old job.
It seems I hadn't payed attention to my salary statements and they payed out my vacation days, so I got close to a full months pay.
Guess where I'm spending my money!

Steel General
01-26-2009, 01:53 PM
Guess where I'm spending my money!

Gentleman's Club? :D

jaspertjie
01-26-2009, 02:51 PM
about 40 bucks each...
Well... in a *very* nice turn of events i actually got $3000 from my old job.
It seems I hadn't payed attention to my salary statements and they payed out my vacation days, so I got close to a full months pay.
Guess where I'm spending my money!

Let's see, in Euros that is around... 30,50 Euro !!!!!!
ANS x 2 = 61 Euro !!!!!!!! That's freakin' much!!! Since I'm only 13 this is kinda GREAT amount. Going to spare my money for this.


Gentleman's Club? :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I almost died when I read this, I didn't come by anymore!

Hoel
01-26-2009, 03:09 PM
Software is expensive... That's the main reson for piracy

joćo paulo
01-26-2009, 03:23 PM
I like the River:twisted:

Gandwarf
01-26-2009, 03:42 PM
Software is expensive... That's the main reson for piracy

Agreed. But I think CC3 and CD3 aren't really that expensive (if you have a job that is). Also I know a lot of people who earn more than decent wages and who still copy every game, piece of software or movie out there. They are just used to pirating... it's like they have become lazy and don't really care anymore. Price isn't always an issue.

I am very much against pirating however, I am used to buying all my software, games and movies.

Oh, and no new maps for a while I think. I am really tired of mapping right now :D

Nomadic
01-26-2009, 07:18 PM
Guess where I'm spending my money!


You're sending some of it to nomad because he is such a handsome devil. :P

Musebajs
02-16-2009, 07:24 PM
Gandwarf, I read through the whole thread in one sitting and studied your maps. You learn quickly and have an amazing imagination, as well as you actually make them happen. Do you only use CC3 and CD3?

My major concern about buying them is that I have Vista and am so tired of trying to get things to work properly, that I have to KNOW that programs are thoroughly tested. Looks like a great program, except for the crash part of it, though.

Clercon
02-17-2009, 06:17 AM
I do own CC3 and when I bought it I had Vista installed on my computer. After installing all patches for CC3 I had no problems using it under the OS (after that i did install XP on it instead, but for completely other reasons)

Gandwarf
02-17-2009, 12:45 PM
Yes, I used CC3 and CD3 for all of these maps.

Two exceptions:

- I used Paint Shop Pro to resize some of the maps and sharpen them.
- I used Paint Shop Pro to label the new Concetron and Meerzicht maps, but that could be done in CD3 as well.

Profantasy has a money-back guarantee if you don't like the software by the way. You can read about it on their website. I think it's two weeks.

I have been running the software under XP. But I know people are also running it under Vista.

JoeyD473
02-17-2009, 04:29 PM
I use CC3 under both XP and Vista. Under XP I have no problems. Under Vista, occassionally it crashes when I switch symbol catalouges

ambessalion
02-26-2009, 10:10 AM
that looks cool

Gandwarf
04-20-2009, 08:40 PM
And I have sinned... installed CC3 on my new computer. Nothing's holding back the insanity anymore :)

This was a very quick and dirty map to get reacquainted with the software.

So is there a support group for addicted cartographers out there!?

Sigurd
04-21-2009, 09:15 AM
So is there a support group for addicted cartographers out there!?


Yes and you already have the url.... 8)


Sigurd