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Jykke
03-12-2009, 04:01 PM
As this rough sketch is somewhat similar to the WIP I posted before, I must make a difference between the two: 1 000 000 miles. That's how much I've gone further in this whole process. New software, new techniques and sh*tloads of hours until I even got this far (and it's still not finished.. and probably won't be in some time).

The map has evolved to a whole new (school) project, and I'm planning to to make a version of it (www-page), where you can view some positions from another angle etc, take a closer look of the important buildings and so on (rendered scene shots). I'll be updating this thread from time to time, so you can follow how the project is coming together.

Software used: Vue, GeoControl2 (beta)

ps. the buildings etc are way out of proportion and not layed out properly.. That's done on purpose as I just wanted to illustrate some city areas of the map.

EDIT: added a small candy for you (pic 2)

Torq
03-12-2009, 04:43 PM
Well done Jykke. Lovely map. The colours are really atmospheric and the iso view allows you to really show off the height field and the mountain, which by the way looks spectacular. I'm glad to hear you are going to be adding more detail, because it may need some. I look forward to seeing your progress with this.

Torq

Ascension
03-12-2009, 05:52 PM
This gets a "holy frejoles!" from me...fantabulous. Guess I'm gonna have to check out Vue and GeoControl. Well done.

Steel General
03-12-2009, 06:49 PM
Very cool and very much rep worthy *bonk*

torstan
03-12-2009, 07:16 PM
That's really spectacular. When you're done with this I can bet a few people here would be interested in finding out how you made this.

overlordchuck
03-13-2009, 12:26 AM
That's pretty spiffy. I messed around a bit with Terragen 1 and still do some Terragen 2 now and again, but I've never really tried any other 3D terrain program. I believe I may check these programs out as well.

Jykke
03-13-2009, 08:10 AM
Torq: Well done Jykke. Lovely map. The colours are really atmospheric and the iso view allows you to really show off the height field and the mountain, which by the way looks spectacular. I'm glad to hear you are going to be adding more detail, because it may need some. I look forward to seeing your progress with this.


Thank you for your encouraging words. The colors aren't final just yet, but I planned to add some dry areas (yellow/brownish) around the mountain tops and on the bottom of the valley. I might even dynamically populate some forest areas if the end result is worth the trouble. As you said, the iso view really works in highlighting the mountains and illustrating the height field, which actually is of the main tasks of this map. I might add a river on the right side of the map if my skills are enough for the task (..to get a satisfying result).


Steel General:Very cool and very much rep worthy *bonk*
Thanks! :D


torstan: That's really spectacular. When you're done with this I can bet a few people here would be interested in finding out how you made this.

Ascension: This gets a "holy frejoles!" from me...fantabulous. Guess I'm gonna have to check out Vue and GeoControl. Well done.

Thank you :) There's quite many related tutorials for vue and geocontrol already out there. But I'll keep in mind what I've done here and maybe create a tutorial based on this project.


overlordchuck: That's pretty spiffy. I messed around a bit with Terragen 1 and still do some Terragen 2 now and again, but I've never really tried any other 3D terrain program. I believe I may check these programs out as well.

Thanks! I tried terragen also, but somehow I seemed to get better results with GeoControl2 beta. It has some really nice functions that will rock your terrain. (Actually I have to admit that learning GeoControl 2 beta was really a pain in the *ss.. maybe reading the user guide would have helped a bit. :) )

overlordchuck
03-13-2009, 07:32 PM
Hmmm...I've downloaded GeoControl 2 Beta and I'm attempting to figure it out. I subsequently learned that my computer is FAR too slow to do any useful renders through Vue. Ah well. I guess I'll have to wait until I can afford my own laptop.

By the way, the in-world tidbit is really great.

Jykke
03-14-2009, 03:05 AM
Hmmm...I've downloaded GeoControl 2 Beta and I'm attempting to figure it out. I subsequently learned that my computer is FAR too slow to do any useful renders through Vue. Ah well. I guess I'll have to wait until I can afford my own laptop.

By the way, the in-world tidbit is really great.

There's a video tutorial you can download for GeoControl2 beta and it's isolines: http://www.cajomi.de/Forum/showthread.php?t=384 It will guide you trough the basics. :)

Vue 7 Requirements:

Windows

* Windows 2000/XP/XP64/Vista 32/64,
* 2GHz Pentium IV or better processor,
* 1GB of free RAM (2GB recommended),
* 200 MB of free Hard Disk space,
* 1024x768 in 65K colors/16 bits (24+ bits recommended).

I personally think that this is definately the minium hardware setup for vue 7. Multicore processor would be a really big bonus, 2-4GB RAM should do the trick if you plan to do complex scenes. I have a computer similar to the requirement specs above, and sometimes the program gets a bit too heavy.. But the render times for scenes that aren't that complex are still far far less than on bryce 5.5 for example.

Jykke
03-17-2009, 03:30 PM
A small update:

I have fought several days with geocontrol and vue.. so this is an illustration of the rivers I plan to have on my final map. It's a quick render done in geocontrol2 and you can see that I have also modified the terrain a bit more and added some mountains on the right side of the map.

I appreciate any feedback you can give about the looks and feel of this riversystem ( /terrain).

Jykke
03-17-2009, 06:03 PM
Here is also a quick render of the above scene.. terrain needs a bit tweaking and the textures aren't layed out in right order.. but it gives an overall view of the concept.

Ascension
03-18-2009, 12:04 AM
Very cool. Makin me speechless.

Jykke
03-18-2009, 06:39 AM
Yeah, but it's feedback I need :) Suggestions about the placement of forests (or comments if I need ones).. Does the terrain look natural.. any suggestions are welcomed, even from novices.. (like me), so please open your coffin of words and hit me with a couple of sentences :)

Steel General
03-18-2009, 08:24 AM
First off these are all fantastic!

I guess for forest placement you'll want to keep in mind the 'tree-line' which in a way you already have built in to your image (where the terrain changes from green to gray), I would think as long as you have no/little forests above that you'd be OK. But I'm no expert on the subject by any means. :)

jezelf
03-18-2009, 10:04 AM
I love all this kind of stuff!

- really have to get to learn it some day! I think I have Vue or Bryce. too many things to learn - I'm drowninggggggg!

It'll be great to see some tutorial on methods. cheers! Look forward to the next postings

Kingbreaker
03-18-2009, 07:31 PM
Here's a silly question:

Are there freeware equivalents to any of this stuff?

Korash
03-18-2009, 07:50 PM
This is really nice stuff 8)

What are you studying at school that you get to play with stuff like this?

As for your questions about trees, like SG I am no expert but I do have a few thoughts.

These look like young mountains with all the jagged ridges and stuff. You also have vegetation that goes over some of the ridges so they are not so high that there above the tree line exactly. They just do not have enough ground to support large growth. Scrubs, lichen and grasses would be fine on the slopes, but if you want trees you should keep them in the flats or lowlands of the valleys.

I would also add some drainage somewhere on the western slope.

Just my two cents worth.

Nice job. *bonk*

Jykke
03-19-2009, 02:02 AM
Here's a silly question:

Are there freeware equivalents to any of this stuff?

Well actually.. that's not a totally silly question.
First of all, you can get a personal training version of vue 7 for free. It has some restrictions about the renders you can produce, but otherwise it is a fully functioning version without any time constraints. You can download it here: http://www.e-onsoftware.com/try/vue_7_ple/

And if you want to test out bryce 5.5, you can get a full & free version from http://download.cnet.com/Bryce/3000-6677_4-10696716.html

If you want to test lightwave for 30 days, then you can get if from (but evaluation software isn't really what you were looking for?): http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwtrial.php

And for terrain generation, you can get GeoControl 2 Beta for free from: http://www.geocontrol2.com/Downloads/GeoControl2_Demo_Setup.exe

That should get you started :)

Jykke
03-19-2009, 02:08 AM
This is really nice stuff 8)

What are you studying at school that you get to play with stuff like this?

As for your questions about trees, like SG I am no expert but I do have a few thoughts.

These look like young mountains with all the jagged ridges and stuff. You also have vegetation that goes over some of the ridges so they are not so high that there above the tree line exactly. They just do not have enough ground to support large growth. Scrubs, lichen and grasses would be fine on the slopes, but if you want trees you should keep them in the flats or lowlands of the valleys.

I would also add some drainage somewhere on the western slope.

Just my two cents worth.

Nice job. *bonk*

I study information technology as my minor subject.. :)

I agree with you considering the treeline. And the drainage on the western slope is also a good idea. I have to consider how much additional work it will cause if I add a flow to that part of the mountain :) But good tips in general, thanks for the input!

mogul76
03-19-2009, 03:44 AM
These images are really impressive. Thanks for pointing out GeoControl 2, Jykke. Have some rep for doing so!

Quick question: Have you also tested World Machine 2? It seems to be quite similar. I can see myself using terrain-generation tools for quite a few maps.

But at the moment, I'm not sure which software is better. GeoControl 2 or World Machine 2?

Does anyone have experience with both programmes?

Ascension
03-19-2009, 08:48 AM
I always had trouble wrapping my head around World Machine. Not that it's any worse or better than others but for me it was like learning Martian.

Jykke
03-19-2009, 04:02 PM
These images are really impressive. Thanks for pointing out GeoControl 2, Jykke. Have some rep for doing so!

Quick question: Have you also tested World Machine 2? It seems to be quite similar. I can see myself using terrain-generation tools for quite a few maps.

But at the moment, I'm not sure which software is better. GeoControl 2 or World Machine 2?

Does anyone have experience with both programmes?

I haven't tried World Machine 2, so I can't really compare the two.. But the main difference from the stats is that geocontrol2 beta is free and it can produce 4000x4000 terrains, when the free version of world machine will give you 513x513 pixel maps. So when detailed maps are needed and you want to use free software.. then the decision isn't that hard. (I first looked at worldmachine but because of the resolution cap I decided to skip it).

Jykke
03-20-2009, 02:56 PM
Just a side note: If you plan to render printable pictures with vue (A4 @ 300dpi), make sure you have enough computing power.. Vue is a real pain in the ass when it comes to memory etc requirements.. but the results are really beautiful.

ps. I still have a long road to walk before I'm ready for that big A4 render, I just stumbled upon this problem when testing out the scene & how it works

Jykke
03-24-2009, 07:32 AM
The map is still under heavy construnction:

-rivers are too wide, and the banks are far from natural
-problems with terrain (right side, lake, for example.. somekind of program bug, working on it..
-trees, well.. I tested trees out and I would welcome some feedback about the size of them. I know they are way out of proportion, but does it bother too much? Layout of the forests is still a big question mark.
-towns, fields.. yes. they are still missing :)
-Roads, hmmm.. have to plot these also
-regional markers. how should the borders of the clan territories be marked, with different color flags, stones, posts ?
-Place names.. this will be an interesting point of the map creation.. I have NO clue how I'm going to set the text etc.
-details, Need more.

pasis
03-24-2009, 09:35 AM
As you said the trees are bit too large. It is noticeable but if you make them smaller you most likely will loose the individual tree look. In my opinion stick with the individual trees as they are far better than a solid tree mat.
you had pointed out many things you will work on and I do like the outcome...rep...

cancerlad
03-24-2009, 09:58 AM
Astounding. The forests look great. Cultural groups tend to expand within natural boundries, so maybe you don't really need any boundry markers. I think a line of standing stones would make great boundry where there are no natural ones. A good example might be the Rollright Stones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollright_Stones) of England. There was another stone age site I had in mind where the stones actually form a long line, but I can't recall the name now.

There seems to be some rivers missing from the mountains in the southern half of the map. The rain water has to run off somewhere.

Other than that I have no suggestions. I am a neophyte myself.

Jykke
03-24-2009, 10:05 AM
Astounding. The forests look great. Cultural groups tend to expand within natural boundries, so maybe you don't really need any boundry markers. I think a line of standing stones would make great boundry where there are no natural ones. A good example might be the Rollright Stones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollright_Stones) of England. There was another stone age site I had in mind where the stones actually form a long line, but I can't recall the name now.

There seems to be some rivers missing from the mountains in the southern half of the map. The rain water has to run off somewhere.

Other than that I have no suggestions. I am a neophyte myself.

Thanks for the good points!

Yeah, I have to consider the boundary markers. Maybe I don't need them at all. :)

I thought to make the southern part of the map more arable, so the soil is more pourus and takes in a lot of water preventing flows to be formed.

Jykke
03-24-2009, 10:13 AM
As you said the trees are bit too large. It is noticeable but if you make them smaller you most likely will loose the individual tree look. In my opinion stick with the individual trees as they are far better than a solid tree mat.
you had pointed out many things you will work on and I do like the outcome...rep...

Yeah, the trees form a some sort of problem.. Actually I'm not even sure if I can make them look like a dense forest, because that will just kill my machine :D It takes a lot of memory to populate a scene like that with a couple of million trees. Thanks for the rep !

Korba
03-24-2009, 01:06 PM
Along with standing stones round barrows, henge's (the earth bank part) and earth ditch features where the most common prehistoric boundary.

The presence of the burial mounds of your ancestors was particularly important because it tied your claim to the land over the generations.

Aerial photos around Avebury (http://www.multimap.com/s/BN5dkUC3) may give you some inspiration, the Wiki on Henges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henge) is worth a read and Offas Dyke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offas_Dyke) is a particularly good example of an earth bank as a boundary.

Its a lovely map though already :)

Korba

cancerlad
03-24-2009, 02:33 PM
I was imagining some really exciting scenes surrounding boundry stones. Like a young man out hunting and suddenly looks up from the deer he just ran down to see he's on the wrong side of the stones...

Perhaps chieftans of two clans aproaching from either side of the stones, hands on the pomels of their swords, to discuss a treaty. Like Horsa and Hengist meeting with Vortigern at stonehenge - a tragic tale that ends in the Night of the Long Knives.

Oh so many possibilities!

Jykke
03-25-2009, 08:11 PM
This next image has nothing to do with the direction I'm taking with the map. I was just fooling around and decided to post the results here, so enjoy.

guyanonymous
03-25-2009, 08:27 PM
Please, continue fooling....that works on it's own as interesting art...

Jykke
03-25-2009, 08:44 PM
Actually I'm planning to create couple of new maps with this style at some point :).
EDIT: I'll post a new map created with this style to another thread.

Jykke
04-02-2009, 04:04 PM
I have faced some problems with this map, as I don't really know how I should implement towns & other landmarks to the scene. It would be so easy if I just could take a medieval castle and place it where the town / city would be, but this is Heian period Japan, and the buildings have to look like that :D ..and it would be nice if the towns had that certain shabby look with all the city streets and so on. I actually tried to create some building models, but mapping a whole town seems like a big job. And even if I'll manage to do that, I'm still not sure how to get it to the actual map and have it look natural on it. Here's a block of the city without any roads and so on.
EDIT: of course it will be from a more isometric kind camera angle when I implement it on the actual map

Thorf
04-04-2009, 01:48 PM
Your 3D work is amazing! Really good job.

However, it just doesn't look like Japan to me. I would suggest that you do a little bit of research into the look of Japanese mountains and land - even just a Google image search (http://images.google.co.jp/images?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=9wT&num=30&q=Japan%20mountains&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi) ought to give you some really good visual imagery to work from.

Regarding the buildings, I can imagine you are probably quite limited with building models, and making a proper period Japanese town would be a project in and of itself. If you want to keep things at a manageable scale, small villages are probably best.

If you could manage to do something with the roofs, things would look better still. Roofs in Japan are one of the most distinctive features of the architecture, whether it's thatched traditional roofs (http://images.google.co.jp/images?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=xxT&um=1&sa=1&q=Japan+roof+thatched&btnG=Search+Images&aq=f&oq=) or ornamental tiled roofs (http://images.google.co.jp/images?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=aco&um=1&sa=1&q=Japan+roof&btnG=Search+Images&aq=f&oq=).

I don't suppose rice paddies are an option? It could be especially fun to put in some terraced fields, but again it would make the whole thing that much more complicated. Rice paddies everywhere that you currently have plains would certainly make it shout "Japan!!"

Jykke
04-06-2009, 10:22 AM
Thorf, thank you for the good tips.. I'll look in to those problems and see if something can be done :) Maybe I'll get a more versatile 3d program to get better results (Vue has quite poor 3d modelling features) EDIT: As this is one of the best tips I've gotten so far.. have some rep for it :)

Jykke
04-07-2009, 12:19 PM
Encouraged by Thorf, I started modelling a more realistic looking japanese building that I will be using in the actual map also. Here's what I've got (it's on the table at the moment..) I'll probably start a new thread on the town mapping section for this sub-project. EDIT: http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=5072 link to the new thread

Jykke
04-08-2009, 08:01 AM
yet another try with the forest.. seems like there is too much of it. It doesn't look as natural as I want it to be. So back to tweaking.. etc

pasis
04-08-2009, 08:52 AM
yet another try with the forest.. seems like there is too much of it. It doesn't look as natural as I want it to be. So back to tweaking.. etc

Also in my opinion there is too much forest here. The underlying ground / mountains are so great that I wouldn't want to see them covered too much.

Thorf
04-09-2009, 08:42 AM
Very nice building! That ought to set the scene quite nicely. :)

I'm glad you got some use out of my advice. I've been living in Japan for almost ten years, seeing mountains every day, so I just couldn't resist. ;)

Jykke
07-26-2009, 09:15 AM
This project is coming back to life.. scrapped the old terrain and started building a new one. Or actually the building of the terrain face has been already completed earlier this week / today, now I just have to make it look alright :D I have no real deadlines for this one, but it would be great if I got it completed before the end of summer. It's really a more worksome project than I ever imagined, as shaping of the terrain is a really irritating and frustrating job. But the work has to be done, as it is part of a school project that has been pushed back too many times. So, I'm really going to try and complete it this time. Will post some results when the rendering is done.

Jykke
07-26-2009, 09:52 AM
Here's a preview of the terrain. 3000 x 3000 pixels, 3.66MB. Btw, I've shot that table texture myself :) There's a small problem with the rivers at the moment, because they look like they glow.. well, still so much to do that it isn't the biggest issue at the moment.