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Redrobes
04-07-2009, 08:00 PM
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/07/wotc_pulls_pdf_products_piracy_lawsuit/

Hmmm & Mneh - a bit pointless methinks... stable doors, horse, close, bolted etc

Gamerprinter
04-07-2009, 08:36 PM
I've seen all the chatter on all the forums: Paizo, EnWorld, even ICE regarding this. Its the knee jerk reaction of trying to stop piracy in the 90's which didn't work. By pulling off all legal/downloadable D&D material - which includes 1e - 4e material, WotC is only guaranteeing pirating of their material.

Its unstoppable. Plus unless the distributors of PH 2, will only get a slap on the wrist, as it must be proven that they've actually profited from distributing their material, there is almost no case for punitive damages.

No, this action only forments pirate activity, not stop it. It's foolish, but then I have lost most of my respect for Hasbro/WotC, long ago anyway.

GP

waldronate
04-07-2009, 08:45 PM
And it ensures that every nickel pirate will go out of their way to get a copy, thus ensuring that a mediocre release has the widest distribution of any product to date. Next week at this time they're likely to "listen to the wishes of the community" and put it back on sale so that every one who was ambivalent toward the product but wants to support the idea of online media will run out and download one.

Or so the large white rabbit told me.

Sigurd
04-08-2009, 02:36 AM
I've stopped calling them Wizards of the Coats.

Now they're Wizards of the Suits



:)


Lots of other more generous positive game experiences out there.


Who else is waiting for the Dresden RPG?????

loydb
04-08-2009, 10:07 AM
Well, as soon as their legislative push to outlaw scanners under the DMCA takes effect, they're golden! :roll:

I just canceled my Amazon preorders for Arcane Power, MM2 and DMG2. Screw them.

Pilias
04-08-2009, 11:13 AM
During tough economic times you see a lot more behavior like this, personally I find the efforts of the AP alot more insulting than this.

There is a ton of pirating of WOTC's books, but honestly there isn't a whole lot that can be done about it except making the legal content as easy to get ahold of as possible. This is a step backwards for them.

Steel General
04-08-2009, 01:24 PM
WotC = "Washington's Overly Tyrannical Company" :)

Gamerprinter
04-08-2009, 01:46 PM
I've heard it always as "Wot See" because it rhymes with what the Third Reich political party named themselves...

GP

jfrazierjr
04-08-2009, 01:54 PM
I have said it before and will repeat.. I really don't think the rank and file guys at WotC are the evil people here. Remember that they(WotC when they were not a subsidiary company) are the ones who in the late 90s/early 2000s opened up the vast part of the rules in the OGL. I highly expect that the Hasbro bean counters are the ones who are pushing this whole thing, trying to wring every last nickel out of turnip so to speak...

Karro
04-08-2009, 02:19 PM
I'd be inclined to agree with Joe. Corporate overlords rarely have the best interests of the public and/or rank & file in mind or heart. Theoretically, the bottom-line is the be-all-end-all, and I wouldn't even be bothered by that so much, but these days it's really all about the C-level paycheck and C-level ego.

I should know, I'm one of the cogs in their machines. (To clarify: not WotC/Hasbro's machines, but the corporate machines in the general sense.)

Sigurd
04-08-2009, 02:23 PM
I have said it before and will repeat.. I really don't think the rank and file guys at WotC are the evil people here. Remember that they(WotC when they were not a subsidiary company) are the ones who in the late 90s/early 2000s opened up the vast part of the rules in the OGL.

I completely agree. I think that the people who took over after TSR, Monte Cook and many of the writers, really understand gaming. The D20 license gave them the whole box store market. I don't think the GSL and 4th edition operates under the same conditions or with the same appeal.


Its one of the those things where if you hold it too tight you lose it. I don't think they see that. Its also entirely possible that a game, even one as big as D&D, can't sustain a company of the size wizards has become. With a recession in the works I imagine its very very tempting to blame anything and everything else.

That is why I find it so sad.

Sigurd

Gamerprinter
04-08-2009, 02:25 PM
I have said it before and will repeat.. I really don't think the rank and file guys at WotC are the evil people here. Remember that they(WotC when they were not a subsidiary company) are the ones who in the late 90s/early 2000s opened up the vast part of the rules in the OGL. I highly expect that the Hasbro bean counters are the ones who are pushing this whole thing, trying to wring every last nickel out of turnip so to speak...

I most certainly agree, its Hasbro as the bully, not WotC. I am sure the whole GSL mess is Hasbro legal team and not WotC itself either.

GP

Redstar
04-08-2009, 03:19 PM
I completely agree. I think that the people who took over after TSR, Monte Cook and many of the writers, really understand gaming. The D20 license gave them the whole box store market. I don't think the GSL and 4th edition operates under the same conditions or with the same appeal.

I agree, and that is why I went where folks like Monte Cook and others went: Paizo. In response to the WotC pulling PDFs, Paizo is having a month long, 35% off sale, on their PDFs. In response to the GSL fascistic clauses, they've put out the OGL which captures the original spirit of the D20 license. They have better artist, better writers, and better game designers hands down.

The actions by WotC have p*ssed a lot of people off. I hope that more people consider the PFRPG. 4e isn't worth the hassle 8)

Turgenev
04-08-2009, 06:55 PM
The actions by WotC have p*ssed a lot of people off. I hope that more people consider the PFRPG. 4e isn't worth the hassle 8)
It isn't just Pathfinder that might enjoy some of the benefits of WOTC/Hasbro's PR nightmare - I've seen some people coming back to the older editions or their various free simulacrums (ie Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC, Basic Fantasy, etc - all based on the OGL).

Eventually down the line, I wouldn't put it past WOTC/Hasbro's to pull the D&D RPG line and try to re-launch the brand as some other variation of miniature or card game. <insert evil smilie> :lol: Or come out with a 4.5 or 5th edition to try to increase revenue again.

thebax2k
04-08-2009, 07:14 PM
I'm having bad memories of the bad ole T$R days of the early 90s. At least Hasbro isn't going after fan made works that contain smidgets of copyrighted materia and artworkl....yet.

I did have one minor quibble with something Gamerprinter said--"as it must be proven that they've actually profited from distributing their material, there is almost no case for punitive damages." That's true as regards to punitive damages, but not statutory (mandatory disclosure, IANAL). According to the No Electronic Theft Act of 1997 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NET_Act) the infringers (at least in the US) can be hit with up to 5 years in prison and $250,000 in fines, even though they did not profit from the infringement (ah, the joys of being big content and having congress in your back pocket).

I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of what Gamerprinter said--punishing your customers wholesale in an clumsy attempt to stop piracy does not strike me as a wise business plan.

Redrobes
04-08-2009, 08:16 PM
What they need to do is drip feed release quality content and absolutely make 100% sure that the easiest way to get it is via the official channel.

Their whole product is just IP & data. The fact that they type set it up and bind it all into a nice convenient shiny hardback set of books is the only reason, other than honest fan support and morality, that people buy it.

Its not like Warhammer where there is a trade in boxed sculpted and very physical lead. They need to email a new map and a new adventure, a new monster and some new art every week on a subscription so that it takes effort to upload it all or batch it all up. If they wanted to play hardball then push out a lot of torrents and stuff which is similar but with loads and loads of not very obvious errors in it so that people are not sure that its correct unless they get the official version.

Would you post your character up on the WotC boards and argue till your blue in the face that its correct when everyone is saying that you haven't got all the stats right... risky move huh ?

Withdrawing the only official source is a doomed strategy.

Redstar
04-08-2009, 09:38 PM
It isn't just Pathfinder that might enjoy some of the benefits of WOTC/Hasbro's PR nightmare - I've seen some people coming back to the older editions or their various free simulacrums (ie Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC, Basic Fantasy, etc - all based on the OGL).

That's true. I'm just partial to PFRPG cause I really got into D&D around the time of 3e, so for me, PFRPG is like the revival of an edition that I really like. But I totally agree: other editions and systems who all benefit from not having to deal with WotC/Hasbro!


Eventually down the line, I wouldn't put it past WOTC/Hasbro's to pull the D&D RPG line and try to re-launch the brand as some other variation of miniature or card game. <insert evil smilie> :lol: Or come out with a 4.5 or 5th edition to try to increase revenue again.

Hahaha... seriously.

Greason Wolfe
04-09-2009, 04:12 AM
Sadly, I don't find this at all surprising. And, to be perfectly honest, I've never much cared for WoTC. I can't count the number of times a good gaming session went bad because somebody brought a card game to a role playing table. All that aside, however, I have to agree with what others have said, it's probably the corporate bean counters that are truly behind this. I see it all the time at work. Most of them just don't have a clue about customer service at all. The only thing most of them see is a bunch of numbers, and if those numbers don't look right, they over react.

Ah well. Live and learn, I suppose. Hopefully this whole situation will, eventually, blow over and everyone can get back to gaming without worrying about whether or not they are violating some sort of copyright law.

GW

Sigurd
04-09-2009, 07:56 AM
"What Does It Mean To Be An Industry Leader?" - Good blog about WOTC from an author and former WOTC employee Stan!.

http://stannex.livejournal.com/161242.html

Redrobes
04-09-2009, 12:01 PM
Good link that and I agree 100%. They have been dragging their heels over the internet and digital age in general to the point where a number of us couldn't wait for them any longer, got off our asses and started coding it all up ourselves. This whole website ought to be under the wotc flag but its nowhere near. This bottom line mentality affects much more than wotc and roleplaying tho. Its pervasive and its killing off whole sections of good stuff. LotR, Harry Potter and Linux are all excellent examples of people doing it for themselves without Hollywood or a standard book publisher and cleaning up. Hollywood's in a similar position where in a number of years you will go and see their films during the in-between times whilst we wait for a 'proper' movie to come out. All down to bottom line bean counting.

Midgardsormr
04-09-2009, 12:37 PM
For those who are interested, White Wolf is also responding to Wizards' unwise move by releasing the Exalted 2nd Edition rulebook for free on drivethrurpg.com. I imagine that's a limited-time offer, so snap it up while it's there!