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HandsomeRob
06-22-2007, 06:04 PM
Sonic Youth - "Drunken Butterfly"

ravells
06-22-2007, 06:10 PM
We have 'Classic FM' which is a classical music channel playing all day on the radio - I'm sick of it - it repeats itself endlessly.

Felicity's gone to bed, I've turned the radio off and I can hear the hum of the computer fan and some fireworks going off in Kew Gardens.

Most of the time I'm happy with silence. I'm not one of those people that can listen to music and think at the same time.

Ravs

Arcana
06-22-2007, 06:18 PM
Iced Earth - Overture of the Wicked

I'm a HUGE fan of power metal...I'll be listening to Kamelot - Ghost Opera soon...I don't know how you can be a fantasy role playing gamer without liking power metal...

Look up these bands on youtube or something:

Kamelot
Iced Earth
Rhapsody
Blind Guardian
Cellador
Demons & Wizards (which is basically singer of blind guardian and guitarist of Iced Earth)
Nightwish
Sonata Arctica
Savatage
ManOWar
Crimson Glory
Dragonforce (FAST guitar)
Dream Theater
Leave's Eyes

They all have different sounds and different speeds, so check all of them out even if you don't liek the first couple.

RPMiller
06-22-2007, 06:58 PM
Dream Theater
Hm... I like DT, so I may just have to check out the others you mentioned.

pyrandon
06-22-2007, 09:02 PM
[quote="Arcana"]I'm a HUGE fan of power metal... ...I don't know how you can be a fantasy role playing gamer without liking power metal...

*Don raises his hand*
I don't know how either, but I'm among that number who dislikes it. :)

Me, I'm a ginormous alternative country fan. If you've never heard of alt-country, you're missing out; radio "top 40" country is like its degenerate, ugly stepsister with too much make-up & a beehive wig; it's like a beautiful, kind, loving woman with a good sense of humor in comparison to Paris Hilton; it's like... Oh, well you get the idea. :)

My favorite is Ryan Adams & Whiskeytown.

PS: If you haven't discovered it already, check out www.Pandora.com ---you'll thank me for it. An on-line jukebox that plays music to your tastes, no matter what those musical tastes may be. Amazing, free, and amazing, and free.

Razor767
06-22-2007, 10:07 PM
I checked out pretty much ever band you listed. Some of it harkens back to 80's stuff. No, not the bubble gum stuff but the more musically/musician oriented stuff that never saw much play on radio stations. I'm not much for nostalgia though so I was more drawn to the newer sounding bands.

Nightwish and Leave's Eyes were my favorites of those you listed and I found another that you didn't mention that I liked alot. Lacuna Coil.

Thanks for posting the list by the way. At the very least it gave me some new music to listen to.

*resists the urge to saturate anything labled "country" with sulfuric acid*

In the interest of open mindedness, I might just check out your link too pyr.

*vacilates*

Torq
06-23-2007, 06:08 AM
For an alternative (and quite cynical) take on country check out Alabama 3 if you havn't yet. Wow.

Torq

pyrandon
06-23-2007, 12:05 PM
Hey, guys, I completely understand the tendency to shirk country; until I found alt-country I largely felt the same (although the sillines & hypocracy of "deep" music either makes me laugh or roll my eyes 90% of the time...).

In fact, many alt-country acts themselves feel disgusted by "country music" too--hence the reason they are "alternative." Our local Michigan State University college station has a huge following for its alt-country show, and while I no longer have much in common with the 18-21 age bracket, we do agree on this. :)

PS: What a great thread. Thanks for starting it, Rob!

HandsomeRob
06-23-2007, 03:14 PM
Oh man, on some other boards this thread is usually just one song at a time - like what I posted - but I like what you all have done better.

So I'll join in.
I like spiky, noisy, guitar-based music. Right now I'm on a major Sonic Youth kick, but I also like Polvo, the Joggers, the Hives, and other bands like that. My most recent band Sea Bus!!! (http://seabus.wikispaces.com) broke up when our drummer moved to New York, but I've got a couple of leads for new bands to join.

Arcana
06-23-2007, 04:33 PM
My current band is just starting out to do some original material...even though I'm more of a metal head, with emphasis on power-prog...the band I'm in is more of a modern rock cover band...we're getting ready to start doing something a little more heavier though with our originals, but it will still be club friendly. What do you play? I play drums. my band is http://www.myspace.com/3rdgearpcola

Razor767
06-23-2007, 09:54 PM
Bass player here! 6-string Carvin.

My band is mostly covers right now. We had 12 songs learned at the begining of this month and now that's up to 30... (20 of which are respectable)

We have a four hour gig on the 30th of this month though.

Weeeee!

The most original thing we're doing is punking out songs like:

I can see clearly now
http://www.dogeyeglow.com/music/shinyday.mp3
Escape (the pina colada song)
and Margaritaville

Eru
06-24-2007, 12:02 AM
I stumbled upon this thread while bobbin' my head to some Rage Against the Machine. Specifically, People of the Sun from the album Evil Empire.

Since fifteen-hundred-and-sixteen, minds attacked and overseen...

Damn Cortes...DAMN HIM!!!

Arcana
06-24-2007, 12:24 PM
Nice cover! We're doing like popular radio stuff...We just learned Finger 11 Paralyzer, which sounds really poppy and 80's when they do it, but we rock it up a bit...and we learned Killing in the Name of by Rage Against the Machine...that was a fun song...makes people jump up and down.

We've been together since late September of 06, so in 10 months we've crammed together a 46 song repertoire and we try to add 2 songs a week if we can. Soon we'll record some junk.

Arkkeeper
06-03-2008, 09:35 AM
YEAH DRAGONFORCE, god has anyone here played "through the fire and flames" on guitar hero that song is sick! the ultimate geek metal band. y'know whats up with metal making a comeback, for a while it was totally unpopular

Traditional/ contemporary Sea Chanty's and Pirate Ballads and traditional celtic specifically Pyrates Royale a band out here at the maryland renn faire. perfect musick for map making! I think they have a video up on youtube, Idk Yahoogletube it people. also I listen to mostly electronica, anime rock, Early Punk and Happy Punk (Bowling For Soup is the happyest band in the world!!!), other trad, and Jam rock (Oingo Boingo is the best band in the world, it just is).

NeonKnight
06-03-2008, 11:32 AM
Another oooooold thread. OK, I'll play.

When I really need the creative juices flowing I listen to:

Judas Priest
Hellix
Iron Maiden
Ozzy Osborne
Old Kiss
Krokus

Basically anything that is from the 80's and is Heavy Metal, not really was big into thrash metal, but did enjoy some of the Glam Metal from the early 90's.

Other music I enjoy is such works as:

Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen
The Conan Soundtrack
The Lord of the Rings Soundtracks

helium3
06-03-2008, 12:59 PM
Sympathy For The Devil by The Rolling Stones

Next Up (My iPod playlist is on shuffle):

Everybody Wants The Same Thing by The Scissor Sisters

Turgenev
06-03-2008, 01:38 PM
I listen to a wide range of music depending on my current mood (from rock to classic country to jazz to opera). These days I'm usually listening to Jazz (Big Band era to the mid 50s mostly) or Japanese music of all genres (rock, anime, folk, traditional, enka, jazz, etc).

Lately I'm usually listening to:
Paris Match (http://www.myspace.com/parismatchofficial) (Contemporary Japanese Rock/Jazz band)
Tendou Yoshimi (Enka)
Ishikawa Sayuri (Enka)
Makimura Mieko (Enka)
Seri Yoko (Enka)
Alfee (Japanese 80s Rock)
Pink Lady (Japanese 70s/80s Pop)
Kaguya-Hime (Japanese 70s/80s Folk)

My music selection is rather eclectic so I've been known to listen to Ella Fitzgerald, Iron Maiden, Reverend Horton Heat, Sonic Youth, Amy Winehouse, Frank Sinatra, The Clash, Duke Ellington, Velvet Underground, Chick Webb, Portishead, Blur, Johnny Cash, PJ Harvey, The Orb, and so on. ;)

Arkkeeper
06-03-2008, 02:54 PM
You and Me both man, I listen to just about anything except for most modern rap (I love old school and alternative however) and most country ('cuse alot of the modern stuff is really just southern pop, the only its country is the acoustic guitar and the southern accent, both of which you don't need to be country)

Torq
06-03-2008, 04:23 PM
Only country I listen to is Alabamha 3. And thats really properly described as Acid House Country. Song currently playing on my mac as I type this "Li'l Devil" by the Cult. Now its gone over "Flashpan Hunter" by Tom Waits. That should give you some idea.

Torq

delgondahntelius
06-03-2008, 05:48 PM
My current favorite cd is the newest one I bought and it seems to be playing all the time and that's Theory of a Deadman's newest album Scars and Souvenirs... its rare that I find a album where I like every song on it .... (and even on this one, there is one song I don't really care for.)

But my favorites are:
Rob Zombie
Meatloaf
Ronnie James Dio
Black Sabbath
Iron Maiden
Disturbed
Yngwie Malmsteen
Green Day
Prong
Metallica
AC/DC
George Clinton (Funkadelic and Parliament)
Sublime

just to name a few....

Redrobes
06-03-2008, 05:52 PM
Wasn't going to post until I saw NK !

Heres my old gigging jacket ! (V.Old piccy BTW). It lights up when the lights go down :) Done few others also, like one for Anthrax. Judas Priest tho - what a band - one of the few I never got to see. Did see Ozzy in the old days... we love you... we love you all man... Not the greatest stage presence but he kicks butt vocally. Sabbath would not have been the same without him.

I like some country (Don Williams / Dwight Yoakum + few more) and esp some blue grass like Earl Scruggs. Rag time, metal - saw Manowar in there ;) Hail to England etc. Anthrax, Saxxon and Motorhead were last metal bands I saw. Also like classical and piano like Tori Amos then I am also a bit of a Jarre fan. Then newer stuff like Travis & Coldplay are pretty neat also.

The Cult were one of my favs also - Sanctuary was awesome. A real power opener that one.

Anyone here like the Viking Metal like Korplikaani or however you spell it ? Try "Wooden Pints" - a bit silly but I like it.

Midgardsormr
06-03-2008, 06:10 PM
Hmm... I can't listen to music while I work--it's too distracting.

When I do listen, though, my radio dial is all but glued to the classical stations. I enjoy Mussorgsky, Bizet, Stravinksky, and Verdi.

I do occasionally get a yen for some folk music, so I have Silly Wizard, Clannad, Eden Burning, the Boys of the Loch, the Appalachian Christmas Quartet, and some others handy in my (very dusty) CD rack.

Redrobes
06-03-2008, 07:10 PM
I do occasionally get a yen for some folk music, so I have Silly Wizard, Clannad, Eden Burning, the Boys of the Loch, the Appalachian Christmas Quartet, and some others handy in my (very dusty) CD rack.Ohh yes Clannad are often very good. Older Celtic stuff is better IMO. Have you tried Steeleye Span ? More trad and vocal than Clannad but long time folk legends.

mathuwm
06-03-2008, 07:44 PM
what about the masters of geeky progressive rock

RUSH 8)



others I'm into at the moment

queensryque (i was listening to "operation mind crime" on my way home today)
postal service
Depech mode
New Order
NIN

oh yah
and METALICA rules!

Redrobes
06-03-2008, 08:24 PM
Unbelievable similarity between all the music here. Queensryche's Mind Crime is in my top 10 albums of all time. WASP's "Headless Children" is similar and would also be around that mark. Either we're all the same age or somebody's peeking in my CD drawer...

Arkkeeper
06-03-2008, 08:37 PM
so its like 60% Metalheads, 15% Prog Rock, 5% classical, and 10% trad? I'm really suprised by all the metalhed mapmakers

Midgardsormr
06-03-2008, 08:45 PM
Have you tried Steeleye Span ?

I have not. I'll keep my eye out for them, though.

edit: Nice! They're in Pandora. I'll give it a listen when I get home from work.

mathuwm
06-03-2008, 10:08 PM
Unbelievable similarity between all the music here. Queensryche's Mind Crime is in my top 10 albums of all time. WASP's "Headless Children" is similar and would also be around that mark. Either we're all the same age or somebody's peeking in my CD drawer...

the wife and i went to the mind crime 2 show last January i think it was.

they played all of mind crime and mind crime 2 and we got to go to the meet and greet after although Tate bailed out early

helium3
06-04-2008, 12:23 AM
Unbelievable similarity between all the music here. Queensryche's Mind Crime is in my top 10 albums of all time.

Heh heh. I love this album, but it's the only one on that list that I know.

NeonKnight
06-04-2008, 02:04 AM
Last band I saw live was in 2006, and that band was:


W*A*S*P!!!!

Yep, they played live here in Vancouver BC (Tonight Iron Maiden is actually playing here but I couldn;t get tix :()

delgondahntelius
06-04-2008, 04:00 AM
Iron Maiden rocks! Bruce Dickenson is one of my favorite all time singers.... man can he hold a note... :D

GlennZilla
06-04-2008, 11:40 AM
Well I'm another metalhead mapper. Although my wife's appreciation for rockabilly and it's punked up cousin psychobilly are getting a lot of my attention.

So currently I'm listening to The Horrorpops, "Misstake". Though prior to that it was "Hell Bent for Leather".

As a side note, my 2 year old daughter seems to fall asleep to Metallica and gets all energetic with Vivaldi. Go figure.

Arkkeeper
06-04-2008, 01:42 PM
I'm sorry but I have to say your daughter sounds cooler than you.

NeonKnight
06-04-2008, 08:30 PM
Heh!

My 8 year old son loves Savatage's The Sirens song!

Arkkeeper
06-04-2008, 09:13 PM
actually I meant about the Vivaldi, I don't really like metal, I mean I appreciate it but its too loud for my taste, the loudest stuff I listen to intimately is old thraser punk, like Suicidal Tendencies or Sex Pistols

mathuwm
06-04-2008, 09:14 PM
ever time i see NEONKNIGHT post i think of Ronny James Dio and black sabbath

and iron maiden is also great

Turgenev
06-04-2008, 10:21 PM
While I'm not a huge fan of metal (well, not since high school really) I have been known to occassionally listen to Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin (are they still considered heavy metal?), Metallica (early stuff mainly - Master of Puppets still kicks ass), Celtic Frost, Corrosion of Conformity, GWAR & Lordi.

Vivaldi on the other hand is my favourite classical composer. ;)

delgondahntelius
06-05-2008, 03:04 AM
I love Vivaldi, I listen to quite a few classical tracks while I write ... helps set the mood for writing ... weird that way I suppose...

Sepultallica9
06-05-2008, 03:32 AM
Right now, I'm listening to the Down album "Over The Under", kinda sludgy southern rock. But I'm normally a metal guy, what I would call "90's metal" - bands like Sepultura, Pantera, Machine Head, Fear Factory etc. And some newer (and generally heavier) bands like Chimaira, Lamb Of God, Arch Enemy (though not strictly newer haha). And classics like AC/DC, Metallica, Slayer etc. The heavier the better. :) The two bands I've most recently gotten into are Throwdown (somewhere between groove metal and hardcore) and Scar Symmetry (melodic death metal).

In other words, I like metal. :D

metal
06-05-2008, 11:03 PM
My nick should give it away. Right now I'm listening to NBA finals, but usually when I'm online or mapping it's Metallica (earlier stuff), RUSH, and my new favorite- Disturbed.

Had my 3 year old daughter in the car the other day, turned down the Disturbed CD and she told me "no daddy turn that back up", a tear came to my eye!

Sepultallica9
06-06-2008, 01:09 AM
My little girl (4 in a couple of weeks) told me last week that I need to get some incy wincy spider on my ipod. :D I'm not getting anywhere with her liking metal... but I may have to start concentrating on infecting my 1 year old son's mind hehehehe.

Arkkeeper
06-06-2008, 08:50 AM
work up to it, play some of the great metal for kids stuff out there. trust me there is some. My sister (4 but as smart as a 6 year old... I'm serious right now we're working teaching her how to read time since she already can read and write a little, oh and she can do three quarter profiles in art.) anyways My Sister hasn't really listened to any metal, but one her favorite things to listen to is my Ramones Mania CD with 25 songs by The Ramones, And then she loves my Electronica. you can probably find theres a CD out there of Metal Bands covering Childrens Songs.

Arcana
06-06-2008, 09:57 AM
I'm rocking to Dream Theater right now...ALWAYS good deep thought music there...you have to be a music geek to even comprehend some of their song structures...its too complicated for normal ears.

Lately I've been listening to a lot of (albums):

In Flames: A Sense of Purpose
Gojira: From Mars to Sirius
Kamelot: The Black Halo
Testament: The Formation of Damnation
Circle II Circle: Middle of Nowhere

Sepultallica9 - Play her some good power-metal...thats usually a good converter...some Kamelot, Rhapsody, Iced Earth, Blind Guardian, Cellador, etc....always good stuff. I'm tempted to make a D&D geek music awareness thread now...brt

Arcana
06-06-2008, 10:01 AM
WASP's "Headless Children"

Changed my life forever.

EDIT: Changed my mind on the music awareness thread...this thread is pretty much that...and all my suggestions are on page 1.

GlennZilla
06-06-2008, 03:44 PM
Well my kids have gotten in uetero as well as half the time they get into the car with me.

If you put Black Sabbath's "Snowblind" on just before you push them around the driveway on thier tricycle, they start to link that awesome bass with happy memories. Pretty soon they love it.

I pulled them around on a wagon with a cassette tape player blasting. But the idea is the same.

If you are willing to split the time between "Wheels on the Bus" and "Blitzkreig" and make the transitions between them somewhat appropriate to the events at the time they make a connection in their little heads.

To this day when Blitzkreig comes on my son (Now, 15) starts talking about the time I took him for a ride on an ATV with the omnipresent music player strapped to the handlebars. I do everything to a soundtrack. It makes my life feels like a blockbuster movie.

Arkkeeper
06-07-2008, 03:15 PM
I still think metals a little intense, if anything Glam Metal... OH OH WAIT I GOT IT. "BICYCLE" BY QUEEN!!!!!!

Turgenev
06-07-2008, 09:45 PM
I still think metals a little intense, if anything Glam Metal... OH OH WAIT I GOT IT. "BICYCLE" BY QUEEN!!!!!!

I prefer "BIKE" by PINK FLOYD.

I'm going to have to go and listen to The Pipers at the Gates of Dawn now to get that song out of my head. ;)

Anna
06-08-2008, 01:46 PM
Ok I can tell I'm getting a bit old ;)

Metal isn't my thing at all. When I'm mapping I want to listen to music which sends my mind mind to fantasylands. Film soundtracks, Classical, ambient music, gregorian

Among my favorits:

Era, Enigma, Vangelis, Dagda, Mark Knopfler.

Right now it's El Greco by Vangelis, a masterpeice to get my inspiration flowing.

Arkkeeper
06-08-2008, 04:07 PM
Anna your not old at all, Like I said the best music for mapmaking, Is Pirate Music. Not only can it be beautiful, but also funny or just plain wrong. the most inappropiate song ever recorded is a pirate chanty called "The Good Ship Venus" I'll just give you the first Verse: "On the good ship venus, by christ you should've seen us, the figurehead was a {censored} in bed, {censored} a {censored} {censored}, {Censored} {Censored} you know what lets just censor the whole thing.

ravells
06-08-2008, 04:22 PM
Arkkeeper, please bear in mind that there are many younger people that use this site. I've edited your last post.

Arkkeeper
06-08-2008, 05:09 PM
Oh DUR DA DUR, sorry wasn't thinking well that just gives you the idea I geuss. again sorry. sorry. heres a happy song: "What do you do with a..." crud no that doesn't work OH, darn no, Okay theres about no Pirate songs that are appropiate, most are innuendous in some way. lol. sorry. again. I'll just go over here *goes to corner*

Arcana
06-09-2008, 12:13 AM
Ok I can tell I'm getting a bit old ;)

Metal isn't my thing at all. When I'm mapping I want to listen to music which sends my mind mind to fantasylands. Film soundtracks, Classical, ambient music, gregorian

Among my favorits:

Era, Enigma, Vangelis, Dagda, Mark Knopfler.

Right now it's El Greco by Vangelis, a masterpeice to get my inspiration flowing.

Check out Rhapsody...Its heavy metal...but it will take you to fantasy lands...

As a matter of fact...they do a song with Christopher Lee...he's amazing...here's links.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8KPZJg5g7M8 - The Magic of the Wizards Dream (slower peaceful song with Mr. Lee on Tenor)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YEMeBTmiX4g - Unholy Warcry (heavier song but rich with story and power...Mr Lee Narrates.)

Rhapsody has been telling the same epic tale since their beginning...its quite epic. They even have an older album with a nerdy "Lispy speaking DM guy" narrating...its funny...EVERYONE should check them out.

NeonKnight
06-09-2008, 12:38 PM
That's Funny ;)

To me METAL ALWAYS takes me to fantasy lands, with songs like the following:

Savatage's The Sirens Dealing with the Greek Myth of the Sirens
Judas Priests: Night Crawler About a creature of horror tormenting a town

And then my personal favorite: The Entire album for King Diamond's Abigail which is a concept album, or where the entire album is one story and each song is a separate chapter. Abigail is gothic Horror set in the 1700's about a man who inhierit's his grandfather's mansion but his young bride is possessed by the spirit of his grandmother's unborn bastard child 'Abigail'

The lyrics can be found here: http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/kingdiamond/abigail.html#1

Though I will admit, King Diamond is not to everyone's taste, even amongst us metalheads ;)

But Metal is one of the few musical types which draws immensely on the myths and legends of Fanatsy and History. Weird really.

overwatch
06-09-2008, 12:59 PM
Sheesh, I've been lurking and not posting.

Lately doom/drone and industrial.

Nadja
Cruciform Injection
I:Scintilla
Hanzel und Gretyl
American Head Charge
Defcon
Rammstein

I suppose that goes just fine with with doing maps of the bleak far future. :shock:

Arkkeeper
06-09-2008, 10:58 PM
Woot Das Rammstein. Technoviking Love Rammstein.

Turgenev
06-09-2008, 11:45 PM
Ok I can tell I'm getting a bit old ;)

Metal isn't my thing at all. When I'm mapping I want to listen to music which sends my mind mind to fantasylands. Film soundtracks, Classical, ambient music, gregorian

I quick like film scores/soundtracks for inspiring the creative juices when I'm working on my AD&D/fantasy games. I would recommend the following...

Film Soundtracks:
Conan The Barbarian Soundtrack Kundun Soundtrack by Philip Glass (Tibetan chants and drums - it has an ethereal quality to it) King Kong Soundtrack (new version)

Classical Music:
Holst's The Planets (especially good for SF games) Four Seasons by Vivaldi

Ambient/Techno (especially good for SF inspired games):
The Orb (anything but especially Orbvs Terrarvm) Eat Static

Medieval Stuff:
Mediaeval Baebes (especially good to watch and listen :P)

That's off the top of my head. ;)

Arkkeeper
06-10-2008, 08:25 AM
Lucky, Having the Kundun Soundtrack.

More great things for sci fi, Halo Soundtracks particularly the Third one. AMAZING stuff by Martin O'Donnell, Chopin (Did a great piece called "Raindrops" Which was used in the Halo 3 Believe Ad Campaign), The Mass Effect Soundtrack, has the same great feel as some of the late 70's and 80's Epic Sci Fi's.

Hey Medievel Baebes, they were at The Renn Faire Last year, filled the entire area up.

Drazi
07-08-2008, 02:23 AM
Right now I'm listening to Elend - The Luciferian Revolution. But I generally listen to a very wide range of music.

Letzte Instanz
Project 86
Loreena Mckennitt
Midnight Syndicate
Ravi Shankar
The Beatles
Streetlight Manifesto
Demon Hunter
Crüxshadows
Rammstein
Lacrimosa
BlutEngel
Corvus Corax
Saviour Machine
She Wants Revenge

Really all over the place there. I tend toward the more instrumental music when I'm doing world design.

StillCypher
07-08-2008, 05:04 PM
Birds! There are birds outside my window! We've had a bunch of little yellow warblers move into the neighborhood (haven't discovered what they are yet!), and they looooove to sing!

I am, otherwise, with Anna:


Metal isn't my thing at all. When I'm mapping I want to listen to music which sends my mind mind to fantasylands. Film soundtracks, Classical, ambient music, gregorian...

Music from The Gladiator, Brotherhood of the Wolf, LOTR, anything by Vangelis, as well as:

Enya
David Arkenstone
Mannheim Steamroller
Lisa Gerrard
Loreena McKennitt
Clannad
Balligomingo
Conjure One
The Paul Schwartz Project
Delerium
The Alan Parson's Project
Bond (the 4-girl group, not 007!)
The Planets


And I, too, like the instrumental stuff when I'm trying to do art or write.