PDA

View Full Version : Haster, Imperial City



joferma0
07-27-2009, 08:00 PM
Hello Cartographers' Guild!
I'm new posting in the forum, though I've been lurking for a while. It's incredible how many talented people are here. Congrats and thanks to you all!

I'm not sure if this is the place to post my map, but as I consider it a "finished" project, I've opted for uploading it here.

This is my first attempt to create a city, and I've been very ambitious (too much I fear :D), selecting the most important population spot in my campaign setting: Haster, the once-proud now-rebuilt capital of Trivadálma Empire.

Created with Photoshop using some elements from other programs such as Campaign Cartographer and Dundjinni.

Hope you like it.

Gamerprinter
07-27-2009, 08:23 PM
Ambitious indeed, and a great result for your first posted map! The city seems to make sense. I love the detail. Have some REP!

I might have liked to have seen some dirt roads rather than green grass on the villages in the outskirts and the patches of houses their look almost like crops. Almost too orderly. Also its difficult to tell if there are alleys or smaller streets carving out those swathes of buildings between the large roads. Still, too many city maps I see have vast spaces between buildings, when it should really be more like this map.

It would have been nice to visualize the missing alleys though. Still good job!

GP

AslanC
07-27-2009, 09:19 PM
Outstanding!

I am simply blown away by how good that looks.

Bravo sir!

Steel General
07-27-2009, 10:26 PM
Very nice...great job of incorporating elements from different sources.

Gandwarf
07-28-2009, 06:18 AM
Very, very impressive. This must indeed have taken a lot of hours to finish! Have some reputation. Really like the layout of the cities and the vibrant colors. The smaller houses on the outside, the bigger near the centre. You have some beautiful fields as well.

Will look at it later today to see if I can give any suggestions for future maps.
Only thing sticking out at the moment: there's not enough roads to my liking. There's a lot of green (grass?) showing between the houses and that isn't very realistic. With lots of people traveling grass would become dirt very quickly.
I just noticed Gamerprinter offered the same suggestion.

ravells
07-28-2009, 07:15 AM
A real labour of love! Have some rep for the result!

NeonKnight
07-28-2009, 12:22 PM
A fantabulous result!

Karro
07-28-2009, 12:53 PM
Yes, indeed, a pretty impressive and ambitious city map.

My only point of criticism is that we only get to see the major roads covered in any detail. It looks like there must be tons of minor roads and alleys winding through the large blocks of buildings.

One particular point of praise: I often see it mentioned that in real medieval cities the buildings abut directly against each other, without any yards or space between, except occassional alleys. You appear to have accomplished that effect, with tons of tiny buildings packed into a very small space without yardage between.

One question: what is meant by "Insulae" in the map key, referring to a particular type of building?

cereth
07-28-2009, 01:02 PM
Fantastic colors! City layout looks great. I like the key and the defined yet subtle coloring of the different types of buildings. I agree with the other comments regarding the grass showing between buildings, but overall it is a fantastic effort. I look forward to seeing some more.

Have some rep! :)

NeonKnight
07-28-2009, 02:50 PM
Yes, indeed, a pretty impressive and ambitious city map.

One particular point of praise: I often see it mentioned that in real medieval cities the buildings abut directly against each other, without any yards or space between, except occassional alleys. You appear to have accomplished that effect, with tons of tiny buildings packed into a very small space without yardage between.

Thank You Karro! This is my major gripe about most city maps I see. They all seem to be City Size Suburbias. With yards etc, that not a single medieval city in the real world has ever had (if someone can post a real world medieval city up as an example of the exception, I would be most appreciative).

I looked at Haster and noted that other than the outlying regions, most of the city is indeed packed (I think the outer regions should be a little more packed, but am forgiving as the inner regions fulfill this).

Karro
07-28-2009, 03:40 PM
Thank You Karro! This is my major gripe about most city maps I see. They all seem to be City Size Suburbias. With yards etc, that not a single medieval city in the real world has ever had (if someone can post a real world medieval city up as an example of the exception, I would be most appreciative).

I looked at Haster and noted that other than the outlying regions, most of the city is indeed packed (I think the outer regions should be a little more packed, but am forgiving as the inner regions fulfill this).

Yeah, while it's not a criticism I've ever leveled at any particular map, I've found it to be generally true. Whenever you look at pictures of medieval streets and old cities, that's one of the standard aspects of the medieval city streetscape.

Gandwarf
07-28-2009, 03:47 PM
Well, medieval cities and even walled cities did have gardens. The herbs were used by households for medicinal and cooking purposes. Some city gardens even had apple and pear trees. Only in the most populous cities was garden space almost completely crowded out, but public parks sprang into existance in later ages.

I am now quoting from "Life in a Medieval City" by Joseph and Frances Gies, two amateur historians. A great book I recently bought.

Also, I know lots of cities in the Netherlands had herb gardens, some even existing today. I did a search in books.google.com and got more examples, including a book about herb gardens. A quote:

"The enclosed privy garden, close by the town walls or flanked by other buildings in the crowded, fortified medieval towns, can be adapted as a pattern for modern herb garden designs."

And a final piece of evidence. Most of the old city maps I have seen feature garden space. Some examples:

Aachen
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/germany/aachen/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_12_b.jpg

Bruges
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/bruges/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_16_b.jpg

London
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/british_isles/london/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_A_b.jpg

These maps were mostly made in the 16th century, but I can't imagine those cities didn't have gardens a few centuries earlier.

Anyway, I am not saying the medieval city had a lot of space for gardens, but they certainly weren't as rare as I once believed myself.
(they were probably more rare in the early Middle Ages, but looking at those maps they might even have been common in the late Middle Ages).

/rant
/threadjack

Gandwarf
07-28-2009, 03:53 PM
Anyway, looking at the map again: beautiful. I nicked it for inspiration ;)
Don't have any suggestions at the moment.

Karro
07-28-2009, 04:08 PM
Well, medieval cities and even walled cities did have gardens. The herbs were used by households for medicinal and cooking purposes. Some city gardens even had apple and pear trees. Only in the most populous cities was garden space almost completely crowded out, but public parks sprang into existance in later ages.

I am now quoting from "Life in a Medieval City" by Joseph and Frances Gies, two amateur historians. A great book I recently bought.

Also, I know lots of cities in the Netherlands had herb gardens, some even existing today. I did a search in books.google.com and got more examples, including a book about herb gardens. A quote:

"The enclosed privy garden, close by the town walls or flanked by other buildings in the crowded, fortified medieval towns, can be adapted as a pattern for modern herb garden designs."

And a final piece of evidence. Most of the old city maps I have seen feature garden space. Some examples:

Aachen
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/germany/aachen/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_12_b.jpg

Bruges
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/belgium/bruges/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_16_b.jpg

London
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/british_isles/london/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_A_b.jpg

These maps were mostly made in the 16th century, but I can't imagine those cities didn't have gardens a few centuries earlier.

Anyway, I am not saying the medieval city had a lot of space for gardens, but they certainly weren't as rare as I once believed myself.
(they were probably more rare in the early Middle Ages, but looking at those maps they might even have been common in the late Middle Ages).

/rant
/threadjack


Actually, those maps illustrate the point: the buildings themselves are wall-to-wall against each other. It is typically in the spaces enclosed by a "wall of buildings" where the garden areas exist. The criticism being discussed is when individual domiciles are shown with a stretch of space between it and the next the domicile over. There do appear to be a few examples in those maps of isolated domiciles with large garden areas adjacent and no adjacent buildings, but those appear to be few in comparison to those that share wallspace.

Cool maps, by-the-way.

Gandwarf
07-28-2009, 04:18 PM
I probably misread, thinking you guys were denying garden space in medieval cities ;)
What I personally found amazing is that most of these maps display a lot of open space in these walled off cities. Was this wishful thinking of the cartographer? :D

Anyway, I agree a lot of buildings shared walls in ancient cities and they formed blocks. But as you said, individual buildings were certainly a fact as well.

That's what I like about Haster, it looks like a good mix. I just miss the alleys and other lesser streets.

Edit:
Reading the comments again it's Neonknight I was replying to.



With yards etc, that not a single medieval city in the real world has ever had (if someone can post a real world medieval city up as an example of the exception, I would be most appreciative).


It sounded like Neonknight was denying medieval cities had gardens and yards...

NeonKnight
07-28-2009, 04:24 PM
One will note from looking at the maps that while there is indeed gardens within a city (and I am most certainly not saying they did not exist), each map depicts the gardens as existing behind the row of houses. These were not the gardens of what I often see in a city map of a Front/Back/Side yards, but more of a Backyard aspect, or in the Bruges' or London maps, of enclosed within a ring of buildings.

Another good example of private gardens is this shot of a district of Naples, Italy:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=40.840738,14.251617&spn=0.004407,0.009645&t=k&z=17
The Gardens are in the centre of a cluster of buildings. They have likely been converted to something less of a garden in modern times, but in the past would ahve likely been location of privies, and Gardens.

NeonKnight
07-28-2009, 04:28 PM
It sounded like Neonknight was denying medieval cities had gardens and yards...

No, I was not saying cities never had green space within them, but they did not have 'yards' in the sense we as modern people think of them. The 'White Picket Fence' ideal of the Modern World of a house with a Front/Back and side yards, with a manicured lawn. I see a lot of city maps that almost typify that ideal, and they really did not exist in medieval times. Unless you were rich, really, really rich. And even then, the yards would have been enclosed behind walls & gate.

Gandwarf
07-28-2009, 04:28 PM
One will note from looking at the maps that while there is indeed gardens within a city (and I am most certainly saying they did not exist) ...

Uh... you are confusing me. The first part of that sentence acknowledges gardens in a city, but the second seems to indicate you are denying that gardens existed? :D

That kind of confusion prompted me to rant about gardens in cities ;)

I agree with both of you regarding the discussion about the layout of cities.
Also, I fully agree with the yard idea as well. They certainly weren't the yards we modern people are used to and enjoy.

Seems the discussion just died out then :(

NeonKnight
07-28-2009, 04:30 PM
Fixed quoted part by Gandwarf to read what I am trying to say. LOL

Gandwarf
07-28-2009, 04:41 PM
Fixed quoted part by Gandwarf to read what I am trying to say. LOL

I kinda figured you were missing another "not" in that sentence ;)

Can't wait to see joferma getting back to this thread and see what we have done with it...

Karro
07-28-2009, 06:08 PM
Uh, yeah, I have nothing to add. Anyway... good luck with more wonderful maps (city or otherwise).

Coyotemax
07-28-2009, 06:18 PM
Amazing map! I'm impressed with the amount of work that went into this, I can only imagine at this point (but I'm starting to get inspired again, maybe i'll find out, heh)

joferma0
07-29-2009, 07:40 AM
Wow! What a bunch of posts!
Thank you very much to you all, the map involved a lot of work, and your appreciation is really, really welcomed!
I lost the count of hours it took to me to complete it (or pseudo-complete for what I've read). Each building/block is an individual entity (layer) in the original file, so you can guess how much effort is in there.

Many questions have arised, so I'll try to answer/clarify them...

About what's the meaning of "insulae": an "insula" is a type of building common in the Roman Empire/Republic in which there was many distinct "apartments" that people mostly borrowed. They were several stories tall and could host over 50 people.

What I've tried to accomplish is a semblance of crowded city, a city that could host up to 500,000 people. A "medieval Rome". And it would be possible only with buildings that had more than one floor. And from that comes the "insulae" concept.

Regarding the garden/yards question. I totally agree with NeonKnight and Karro (sorry if I forget someone) that most of the city maps out there have too much "empty space" among buildings. My experience in medieval cities (I live in Valencia, Spain, which has an ancient medieval downtown) is that people builded their houses one next to the other, to get a more solid construction, and also to carry out less work. As far as I know, gardens and yards were placed mainly in neighbourhoods of wealthy merchants or high status people. Of course exceptions would exist, and surely the differences from one country to other or one region to other would be radical. But I wanted to break totally with the existing model of some kind of idilic, suburbial cities (that would be more appropriate for small towns), and create something more real. I'd like to have been able to get the same effect out of the walls of the city, but it was really exhausting and imagined that pressure in the outside was lesser and people could have spread more.

And the most important question for me, smaller streets and alleys. It's true that the green grass between houses is not very realistic, but two factors influenced the decision. Firstly, the map is designed to print in A1 size, and drawing a lot of streets with that light color didn't result in an enough satisfactory result. Secondly, the job had already been immense, and I was in urgent need to finish it to use in my campaign, so I opted for taking it out of my mind and just define the main roads and avenues. But I suppose that a good and easier solution, as someone has said, would be making the house patches more dirty in between. I'll try it (when I get back enough forces and resolution, hehehe).

Again, thank you very much.

Lwaxana
08-06-2009, 04:00 PM
Wonderful map! And it is as if you have read my description of the capital of the Kingdom of the Holy Light in my epic campaign. Which is why I'm gonna use it as such. I was searching for a fitting map for like a year!

Thanks a lot for posting this.

Katerek
08-06-2009, 06:29 PM
awesome, repped!

Turgenev
08-10-2009, 05:27 PM
Fantastic map! The sheer number of buildings blew me away - very impressive indeed. Have some rep.

DMT
08-14-2009, 06:36 PM
Man this is amazing.!!! So much detailed and we organized map.


DMT