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zenram
09-25-2009, 02:11 PM
Hi

Well, after seeing all the beautiful works, and how they have been evolving and developing, thanks to the great advice of the fellow mates of this forums, i have decided to post this rough sketch of the map of a campaign world, in wich i have been working something like 3 years. (On the world, not the map) XD

Right now i would like to hear some advice on the climates and how they should be distributed, now, the catch is that this is a flat world, envelop with the power of the gods, i don't know if i should look to make it like the climates of the earth, or just do whatever i like, i don't like the "everything is just result of gods power" answer, that i should use in that case.

The sun exists, the moon, etc, some gods gave their freedom to "replace" them, taking their places. So one god is the sun, one the moon, one the earth itself... But the thing is that the sea ends in the infinite, and when you get to the edge of the world, you are transported to the other extreme.

I dont know exactly how to manage the climate issue...

Any ideas?

Steel General
09-25-2009, 02:21 PM
What I usually do, is use Earth's climate as a base, and adjust it as I need or is appropriate to the map I'm working on. Not a very in-depth answer, but it works for me so that's how I do it.

Karro
09-25-2009, 02:45 PM
From a strictly technical standpoint, if the world is indeed flat then it will not be subject to the normal forces that affect the real world (such as the coriolis effect and hadley cells, etc.) that create the climate patterns we have here.

So... I'd start at the basics. Despite being flat, for instance, is your world roughly the same size as Earth in area covered? I know you say the seas are "infinite", but you also suggest that sailing off one end dumps you out on the opposite end of the world. Is that true both E/W and N/S, so that if, for instance, you sail too far north, you are suddenly in the south? If that's the case then your flat world is, in fact, being subject to some pretty interesting geometry.

Anyway, if the it's the same size as Earth, does one region still get more sunlight than the other during different times of the year? In other words, do you still get seasonal variations in temperature? (I guess this implies that in summer, the sun-god travels more over the northern sky and in winter more over the southern sky.)

zenram
09-25-2009, 03:24 PM
From a strictly technical standpoint, if the world is indeed flat then it
will not be subject to the normal forces that affect the real world (such
as the coriolis effect and hadley cells, etc.) that create the climate
patterns we have here.

1. Is like a 50% bigger than earth.


Is that true both E/W and N/S, so that if, for instance, you sail
too far north, you are suddenly in the south? If that's the case then
your flat world is, in fact, being subject to some pretty interesting
geometry.

2. That's the power of the gods, as they don`t wanna "material" beings on other planes.


(I guess this implies that in summer, the sun-god travels more
over the northern sky and in winter more over the southern sky.)

3. You get it. XD

Karro
09-25-2009, 04:27 PM
Okay, this is an academic question, not really one that will help with the climate-placement goal, but if you were to, say, sail all the way north and then just as you were about to cross over into the southern hemisphere you changed directions, let's say made a right turn, where would you end up? Would it still be in the South Pole region only a little to the right, or would it be, for instance, somewhere in the western sea? Additionally... does a compass always point north in this world such that if you followed it and continued to follow it north you'd end up on a continuous loop passing over the same landmark over and over?

Anyway, so you have seasonal temperature fluctuations just as in the real world, driven by where the sun god decides to travel over the world. (Man, this makes me think up some kind of strange plot where a mad king or wizard or something tries to usurp the sun god to keep the sun stationary over his/her kingdoms or lands to make it alway summer there, not realizing the havoc this causes when the rest of the world is plunged into a sunless ever-winter.)

Now, technically in this flat world you wouldn't have the various effects I described that are caused by a spherical world spinning on its access, but might there by chance be a wind god? Given the existence of a wind god, the winds might not be as static as a flat world might suggest, but might flow in roughly the manner we expect based on observations of the real world. Alternately, the wind god might decide to blow solely from one direction, and this would have vastly different consequeneces for the distribution of climates in your world.

But one thing we know, then, is that where we might, if this was a spherical world, roughly find the tropics and equator, we will have a greater degree of heating of the water and air masses - in the summer more heat toward the northern tropics and in the winter more heat toward the southern tropics. Even without being a spinning globe, we might expect some air and water currents to carry the heat and distribute it outward. Depending on the specific geometry of this world, those currents could flow in any number of unusual directions (would an ocean current flowing off the northwest corner of the world end up in the southeast?)

So... you know what... I should stop and ask: do you want to have a level of detail supporting where you put your climates, or do you want something simple and plausible. If the latter, go with what SG suggested: put them where they are on Earth, and handwave any assumptions about what the gods are doing to make them be there. Having them in realistic places in comparison to where they are on earth lends enough verisimilitude.

If you want to go the detailed route, then my next step would be to start mapping out your ocean and wind currents, deciding as you do whether the ocean and wind gods (assuming such gods exist in this world) are following the same principles in place in the real world or are operating out of some other desire. Even if you get effects similar to what is in place on Earth, the geometry of you world could produce some interesting and unusual climate placements, potentially, depending on how you have everything flowing.

zenram
09-25-2009, 07:16 PM
Okay, this is an academic question, not really one that will help
with the climate-placement goal, but if you were to, say, sail all the
way north and then just as you were about to cross over into the southern
hemisphere you changed directions, let's say made a right turn, where
would you end up? Would it still be in the South Pole region only a
little to the right, or would it be, for instance, somewhere in the
western sea? Additionally... does a compass always point north in this
world such that if you followed it and continued to follow it north you'd
end up on a continuous loop passing over the same landmark over and over?


1. If you cross over anyone of the edges, you are transported right to the opposite hemisphere, that said, if you navigate all te way to the north and then turn right, you would end in the south sea, but a little to the right... BUT, if you are traveling north just on the northest edge and then turn right, you would end on the southwest sea.

2. Well, i guess the compass can be designed so it can point at the diferent edges of the world, so you can notice the direction you are traveling.



Anyway, so you have seasonal temperature fluctuations just as in the real world, driven by where the sun god decides to travel over the world. (Man, this makes me think up some kind of strange plot where a mad king or wizard or something tries to usurp the sun god to keep the sun stationary over his/her kingdoms or lands to make it alway summer there, not realizing the havoc this causes when the rest of the world is plunged into a sunless ever-winter.)

1. Yes, he travels all around over four close planes Fire-Earth-Water-Air. (The Translation movement of earth)

2. And the Earth God rotates over himself to keep watch over the planes too, so neither of them tries to take over the material plane. (The rotation movement of earth)

3. To mimic at some degree the climates of earth.

4. Good plot. XD



Now, technically in this flat world you wouldn't have the various effects I described that are caused by a spherical world spinning on its access, but might there by chance be a wind god? Given the existence of a wind god, the winds might not be as static as a flat world might suggest, but might flow in roughly the manner we expect based on observations of the real world. Alternately, the wind god might decide to blow solely from one direction, and this would have vastly different consequeneces for the distribution of climates in your world.

1. Well, i have a god almost for everything, very like of those of the greek panteon, and yes, there is a wind god, a fertility god, sea god, river god, sky god, etc...

2. He is a free will spirit, so he likes to travel all over the world constantly, but prefer some places to stick around for a while. (Mimic the earth again)



But one thing we know, then, is that where we might, if this was a spherical world, roughly find the tropics and equator, we will have a greater degree of heating of the water and air masses - in the summer more heat toward the northern tropics and in the winter more heat toward the southern tropics. Even without being a spinning globe, we might expect some air and water currents to carry the heat and distribute it outward. Depending on the specific geometry of this world, those currents could flow in any number of unusual directions (would an ocean current flowing off the northwest corner of the world end up in the southeast? )

1. The currents don't get transported as objects and people, after all they are the sea god, and he can travel wherever he like, but here too, he prefer to be close of de water plane, so the currents usually go there.



So... you know what... I should stop and ask: do you want to have a level of detail supporting where you put your climates, or do you want something simple and plausible. If the latter, go with what SG suggested: put them where they are on Earth, and handwave any assumptions about what the gods are doing to make them be there. Having them in realistic places in comparison to where they are on earth lends enough verisimilitude.

1. Damn, i know im gonna regret it latter but... I wanna have a good explanation to write it.



If you want to go the detailed route, then my next step would be to start mapping out your ocean and wind currents, deciding as you do whether the ocean and wind gods (assuming such gods exist in this world) are following the same principles in place in the real world or are operating out of some other desire. Even if you get effects similar to what is in place on Earth, the geometry of you world could produce some interesting and unusual climate placements, potentially, depending on how you have everything flowing.

1. Well, they follow their desire, but with some logic behind, that logic are the planes and their position in relation of the material plane.

2. When i started the map, i thought in place climates, based on their position on relation with the planes. I added a simple image of my cosmic plan, so you can get the idea. As the plane is flat, you can assume all other planes are flat too, the lines that links the planes are the point of contact between them.

Jeff_Wilson63
09-25-2009, 09:05 PM
Oo. Love the map of how the planes interconnect. Basing your climate on that seems to be the way to go to me.

I'd place several celestial bodies in the sky. At any point on your material plane a celestial body will appear to travel the same course. However, as you move, the celestial bodies will appear to track different courses across the sky. Over the course of a year the different bodies will brighten and pale, causing seasonal changes.

Does that work for you?

NeonKnight
09-26-2009, 12:58 AM
Here's the fun.

We know in the real world, that the rising sun is caused by the earth's rotation towards a by and large as far as our solar system is concerned, a stationary Sun.

Seasons are then caused by the orbit of our (tilted at approximate 23 degrees) and depending on when in the orbit the poles are titled towards/away from the sun.

Now, the ancient Greeks, not knowing this explained the sun as the god Appollo driving his lustrous chariot across the heavens every day.

The seasons were explained in my favorite myth, that of Hades' love for Persephone, daughter of Demeter. Hades tricked her into the underworld, and Demeter was so distraught over her loss, she neglected her duties as a Goddess of Nature and fertility. As a result the plants did not grow, and crops failed. Persephone did not eat while in the underworld save 6 pomegrante seeds. As a result she had to return to the underworld for six months every year. During this time Demeter would mourn Persephone's absence and neglect the crops and thus we had winter, the period Persephone was gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter#Demeter_and_Persephone

Now, in a flat earth cosmology, I like the ideas of myths and gods being a 'real' force and not merely 'faces/figure heads' to explain a real world occurance.

zenram
09-26-2009, 01:13 AM
Well, actually that's covered by the Sun God Travels (Translatión movement) and the Earth God movement (Rotation movement), but now that you say it, that could be a factor too.

The real issue are the maths. XD

zenram
09-26-2009, 01:29 AM
The seasons were explained in my favorite myth, that of Hades' love for Persephone, daughter of Demeter. Hades tricked her into the underworld, and Demeter was so distraught over her loss, she neglected her duties as a Goddess of Nature and fertility. As a result the plants did not grow, and crops failed. Persephone did not eat while in the underworld save 6 pomegrante seeds. As a result she had to return to the underworld for six months every year. During this time Demeter would mourn Persephone's absence and neglect the crops and thus we had winter, the period Persephone was gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter...and_Persephone

Now, in a flat earth cosmology, I like the ideas of myths and gods being a 'real' force and not merely 'faces/figure heads' to explain a real world occurance.

1. I learn that legend on a D&D campaign, in wich we were epic pc's and we talked with the gods on a full greek world. (Well, but with dragons XD)

2. Yeha, you maybe are right, i just wanna have some fisic explanations too, so if the Sun God decides to travel closer to the Fire plane, know at least at a degree, how the climate is gonna be affected.

XD

Karro
09-28-2009, 01:48 PM
That's an interesting planar layout. So, now my next question:

Based on this Layout, does this imply that, for instance, the plane of Fire is located:

a) to the northwest of the material plane; or
b) in the western sky above the material plane; or
c) does this map not really relate the physical locations so much as the metaphysical locations such that we can't say that this represents anything about their locations in relation to each other as can be understood by earthly observations

What I'm driving at, here, is that if the sun god decides to stray closer to the realm of Fire, does that mean he'll (a) be straying to the Northwest, (b) straying to the West, or (c) that his "straying" toward the realm of Fire can't be observed directly based on where in the sky we see the sun so much as that since the sun god is closer to the realm of Fire in a metaphysical sense, he is farther from the material world and therefore the material world is colder (i.e. winter).

zenram
09-28-2009, 05:02 PM
a) to the northwest of the material plane

Imagine an horizontal view, with the material plane in the center, and the others expanding from it. As it were the same infinite land, but restricted by magical walls. (the ones that make you "travel" to the other edge).


(a) be straying to the Northwest

Now, they can't be observed, as each plane is "divided" by the magical "walls".

Karro
09-29-2009, 10:25 AM
Hmm. Okay, so the realm of fire is, in a sense, in the northwest (behind a magical wall). So, if the sun god strays toward the fire realm, will he visibly look as though he's in the northwest sky?

Meanwhile, if the wind god strays toward the realm of air, would it seem as though the wind blows to the northeast? And the earth, meanwhile, is turning toward the southwest, correct?

Basically, if we can surmise that this straying occurs in regular, seasonal patterns (and if these observations are accurate), we can say something about the way heat and moisture is distributed throughout your world, and thus something about the climate. If it's really just completely random, it might be more difficult to make these sorts of educated guesses.

Another quick question: assuming the sun starts in one side of the world each day and crosses toward the other, how does he get back to his starting point each day?

zenram
09-29-2009, 11:45 AM
Hmm. Okay, so the realm of fire is, in a sense, in the northwest (behind a magical wall). So, if the sun god strays toward the fire realm, will he visibly look as though he's in the northwest sky?

1. Well, it's not that, "there is" a magic wall physically, what a normal creature will see is just the horizon. XD

2. The sun God is visible, as the sun in our world.



Meanwhile, if the wind god strays toward the realm of air, would it seem as though the wind blows to the northeast? And the earth, meanwhile, is turning toward the southwest, correct?

3. Yes, it's correct, now, they prefer to go there, but they of course have to fulfill their duties all over the world, so they go everywhere, but in shorter lapses.



3. Basically, if we can surmise that this straying occurs in regular, seasonal patterns (and if these observations are accurate), we can say something about the way heat and moisture is distributed throughout your world, and thus something about the climate. If it's really just completely random, it might be more difficult to make these sorts of educated guesses.

4. Yes they occurs in regular patterns, as the seasons.



Another quick question: assuming the sun starts in one side of the world each day and crosses toward the other, how does he get back to his starting point each day?

5. Below the world, where he uses the time " to heat" the world core.