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Texcolo
11-01-2009, 05:54 PM
I've started working on Rosencrantz's sister city of Guildenstern. I've finshed the Guildenstern Cathedral, and am now working on the city walls and street system. I think the walls are out of scale... too big.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r112/texcolo/Guildenstern_001.jpg

Gandwarf
11-01-2009, 05:58 PM
Yeah, the walls are definitely too big. They overshadow the Cathedral at the moment and I think you will want that building to pop out.

mearrin69
11-01-2009, 09:53 PM
The cathederal is awesome, though. Looking forward to seeing this.
M

Texcolo
11-02-2009, 12:46 AM
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r112/texcolo/Guildenstern_002.jpg

Here's another go. I made the walls smaller, and added a bunch of housing etc.

The building in red is the apothecary. This is taking a long time. He he.

rdanhenry
11-02-2009, 01:15 AM
Now fill the rest with taverns and brothels and you'll have a perfect D&D town.

dr Jack
11-02-2009, 04:59 AM
I like the city and the cathedral is awesome.
May I ask you if you're using any tutorial and what software are you using?
Especially about the cathedral and the apothecary.
Thanks.

Texcolo
11-03-2009, 12:39 AM
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r112/texcolo/Guildenstern_003.jpg

Dr Jack, thanks for the kind words. I'm using Adobe Illustrator. I've just added the inns in green.

töff
11-03-2009, 10:12 AM
Is there some reason the cathedral is not cruciform?

mearrin69
11-03-2009, 11:11 AM
It is, no doubt, the Church of Kord. None of that namby pampby "your prophet got lynched by some Imperial rabble" religions in our fantasy worlds, please. :)
M

PS - Please don't take offense...none is intended. In fact, I think that's why most fantasy works stay away from real-world religions. That and the fact that God/Allah/whomever doesn't grant Flamestrike and Cure Serious Wounds nearly often enough to be useful to adventurers. :)

töff
11-03-2009, 11:23 AM
No offense taken. I'm not even a Christian.

That largest outbuilding looks cruciform, though. And the whole thing is so set in Europe (e.g. the name Guildenstern) and the Middle Ages (the flying buttresses), that it's a short leap to assume Christianity. Even the word "church" in Mearrin's post is European and specifically Christian.

Maybe the eventual labelling will clear this up?

Texcolo
11-03-2009, 11:58 AM
Good eye Toff. Lemme take steps to correct this.

Texcolo
11-03-2009, 12:29 PM
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r112/texcolo/Guildenstern_004.jpg

töff
11-03-2009, 12:42 PM
Uh oh. Mambypamby got lynched in the fantasy world!

Hmm, I think also the cruciform needs to have the bottom segment (nave) longer than the top (choir)... and traditionally too I think it was aligned north-south, so you might want to remember that when it's time to throw that badboy compass rose in there.

All assuming this is Earth-style Christianity, of course.

töff
11-03-2009, 12:43 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/architecture_cathedral_02.shtml

Hmm, east-west, OK, so I menembered wrong. That's pretty common for me.

RobA
11-03-2009, 12:49 PM
Speaking of buttresses, why are the ones on the cathedral/church so large? Is that typical?

-Rob A>

töff
11-03-2009, 01:05 PM
They did have some awesome beautiful gigantic buttresses. They're still standing.

ravells
11-03-2009, 03:40 PM
Those look like flying buttresses, but these are usually attached to a column. They don't normally appear around curved walls (which can take the weight), but straight ones - to hold up the roof I think. They do look a little on the long side to me - but I'm no expert

Ascension
11-03-2009, 04:31 PM
Yep, if you make the nave longer then put the buttresses there. They are there to hold up the long flat curtain wall; the rounded parts don't need the support. If you want to avoid it looking Christian then don't put in a long nave, keep it like this...more of a crusader cross.

töff
11-03-2009, 05:06 PM
want to avoid it looking christian then don't put in a long nave, keep it like this...more of a crusader cross.lol! :p ...

Spiritless
11-03-2009, 05:38 PM
you could always create another nave because the buttresses are way too long. What you have now seems like a mix between english and french gothic architecture (I don't recall large round choirs in english, while transepts in french were hidden in the main nave). Creating additional nave (or naves) would probably make your church resemble more french gothic, so... well, overall it's still your call but imo the buttresses are too long and it shouldn't be such a pain in the ass to change it, would it?

Djekspek
11-03-2009, 08:06 PM
really like this. nice layout and buildings are great (especially the cathedral). I think the green buildings are a bit out of place color-wise...

Texcolo
11-03-2009, 10:16 PM
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r112/texcolo/Guildenstern_005.jpg

I've made the cathedral face west to east, and shortened the buttresses.

I'm not a civil engineer, so I can't decide which walls need buttresses and which ones don't... I'm going for aesthetics here.

:)

rdanhenry
11-03-2009, 11:37 PM
I like big buttresses and I cannot lie.

Spiritless
11-04-2009, 03:35 AM
Looks better for me :) and you got yourself a nice square in front of the cathedral

Steel General
11-04-2009, 06:53 AM
I like big buttresses and I cannot lie.

That was definitely chuckle-worthy.

@Texcolo - This is coming along quite nicely.

töff
11-04-2009, 10:10 AM
Looking really nice!

I hope you have an automated method for the shadows (and if so, I wonder what it is). All them big buttresses just bought you some extra worktime for shadows.

philipstephen
11-04-2009, 12:42 PM
i am digging it!

but i have a question. What is the reason for the square section on the northerly wall? It looks like a little small enclosure, but i am not sure what purpose it serves.

phil

Gamerprinter
11-04-2009, 01:19 PM
i am digging it!

but i have a question. What is the reason for the square section on the northerly wall? It looks like a little small enclosure, but i am not sure what purpose it serves.

phil

It looks to me like an improved gate. This type of defensive structure is usually two gates one after the other, usually the second at 90 degrees from the outer gate for better defense against siege. Japanese castles always include these types of gates.

Don't mean to second guess the mapper here, just that's what it looks like to me.

GP

mearrin69
11-04-2009, 02:06 PM
Could be. There appears to be a road leading to it as well.

BTW, I'm sure you know and have a plan for it but there are some shading issues on the smaller buildings. Just wanted to point it out on the small chance that you might not have noticed/thought of it.
M

Texcolo
11-04-2009, 05:10 PM
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r112/texcolo/Guildenstern_006.jpg

Hopefully, I took care of most of the shading issues. Yes, those are improved gates... I added another one to the east side of town.

So, these gates are intended to make invaders have to make a 90 degree turn? I didn't think of that... I'll have to work on it.

I'm probably going to add a castle to the south side of the river. This is turning into a major under taking.

By the way, Rosencrantz is five miles to the west along the river.

Juggernaut1981
11-04-2009, 05:50 PM
There are two options...
#1 Make the invaders turn a corner (thereby slowing down things like battering rams)
#2 Put the invaders in a small enclosed area where you can hit them with things... like hot oil, large stones, arrows, sheep, cows, etc

Absinth
11-05-2009, 03:17 AM
The map looks beautiful so far! I especially like the gates, the wall and the cathedral. The only thing that I'd change is that the yellow houses all have the same size. It doesn't look like a city that has grown over the ages, but more like a satellite town.

Texcolo
11-05-2009, 12:25 PM
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r112/texcolo/Guildenstern_007.jpg

I've added the castle. As for the houses being the same size, yeah I'll have to work on that. Randomness is not easy.

rdanhenry
11-07-2009, 03:33 AM
Maybe Guildenstern has strict building codes? Probably enforced by stern guilds.

Redrobes
11-07-2009, 07:52 AM
I like big buttresses and I cannot lie.
LOL


Those look like flying buttresses, but these are usually attached to a column.I with you up to here...

They don't normally appear around curved walls (which can take the weight), but straight ones - to hold up the roof I think. They do look a little on the long side to me - but I'm no expertI think you will find buttresses (inc the flying ones) on all exterior curves as well as the straights.

Heres Notre Dame in Paris...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=&sll=48.852904,2.350468&sspn=0.001228,0.002411&ie=UTF8&ll=48.852983,2.349918&spn=0.001272,0.002411&t=h&z=19

which also serves to show how big they might look as well.

Heres another Notre Dame but this time in Amiens...
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Amiens+&sll=48.852983,2.349918&sspn=0.001272,0.002411&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Amiens,+Somme,+Picardy,+France&ll=49.894619,2.301987&spn=0.001246,0.002411&t=h&z=19

Bourges
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Bourges&sll=49.894619,2.301987&sspn=0.001246,0.002411&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bourges,+Cher,+Centre,+France&ll=47.082158,2.399279&spn=0.001317,0.002411&t=h&z=19

Cologne (Koln)
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Cologne&sll=50.941099,6.9572&sspn=0.019497,0.038581&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cologne,+North+Rhine-Westphalia,+Germany&ll=50.941438,6.958412&spn=0.002437,0.004823&t=h&z=18

Flying buttresses were used to prevent them needing buttresses on the inside so that the open space inside is much bigger with no pillars etc. They build the walls to lean out and then buttressed them to prevent them falling outwards. Very often the buttresses have buttresses !

Edit - Found some pics I took of my (sorta local) church. The third pic shows the space inside with no cross beams at all. Also note that at the end its flat with the huge stained glass window. This is common in UK churches so we dont have the rounded ends to most of ours so we don't generally have flying buttresses on the ends of our churches but a pair of big normal ones instead. Pic 4.

ravells
11-07-2009, 08:03 AM
Wow! I take back all I said and stand very corrected!

Ascension
11-07-2009, 08:09 AM
When in doubt, Google it.

Spiritless
11-07-2009, 10:22 AM
don't want to be a smart ass or something... But his buttresses were too large. Notice something in common in those pictures?
Notre Dame in Paris: the Buttresses aren't "freestanding". They end upon the outer nave, then to the ground. They hold the walls of the main nave, but then only half of them (or so) is visible, rest is inside the outer nave.
Amiens: the left ones are normal length, while the right ones are double. There are two rows of buttresses, both of them ending in an outer wall, and only part of them is visible.

The rest is either ending in the outer nave, or there are two rows of those. And that is acceptable. Buttresses so long, as they were in Texcolo's cathedral, would loose their purpose, being too far away from the wall to hold it.
And when it comes to curved walls, their role was purely aesthetic. Imagine that you have a game card (it can be ace of spades :) ). Try to make it stand, all by itself, without any support. Falls, right? That's what high thin walls do. Now bend the card so it is in the shape of U. And then make it stand. No problem right? No need for buttresses. That's why english cathedral's didn't have strange rounded buttresses on the end.

The flying buttresses were made only to move the force from the wall, while the buttresses were the holding ones. Those "towers" often had iron cores, because they had to be extremely heavy to carry those walls.

In early catholic churches, before invention of the buttresses, the outer naves had the same role. They were holding up the main nave, which was a bit higher. That, and round vaults prevented roman churches to be high as gothic ones. The more pointed a vault is, the higher it can go. Of course, over time with invention of new buildings materials and techniques vaults role became also purely aesthetic, as with the Redrobes' third picture of a church. Those were the Fan Vaults, but those were used exclusively in late gothic.

here's the construction, arrows are forces.
18418

ravells
11-07-2009, 12:34 PM
I retract my retraction!!

Redrobes
11-07-2009, 01:41 PM
Yup - I see no contradictory stuff in that explanation to what I was saying.

Spiritless
11-07-2009, 03:49 PM
only the thing that his buttresses were too long, and everything else seems correct :) and I wanted to clarify a few things. Don't mind us Texcolo

Texcolo
11-07-2009, 10:04 PM
Maybe Guildenstern has strict building codes? Probably enforced by stern guilds.

LOL, that's funny. :D

castlewrks
11-25-2009, 10:09 PM
Watch the shadows on your rooftops as you copy and rotate your buildings. The deeper shadows should be consistently on the same side of your buildings. Right now, they are on all sides, so it is hard to see which angle your light is actually coming from.