View Full Version : The Rivercrossing at Weides

01-07-2010, 02:48 AM
Hey guys

After completing my map on the Rainlands I decided to do a smaller map depicting one of the towns of the region during a key event in this nation's history, the Battle of Weides during the Rain Wars.

“The Rain War started in the Winter of 3567 AF, during the late Second Age, with the invasion of the Ododal into the lands of the Maer and Oruhl clans. The superior Odadal forces were able to penetrate far to the north of the Oda River, besieging the port of Laer Oruhl, rampaging across the Southern Rains and ranging into and beyond the Red Wind Hills. Their northward advance was eventually stopped by the arrival of Evedal forces and so began a game of cat and mouse amongst the flood plains and marshes of the Southern Rains. The leader of the Odadal, Jha’Nis Fionamu al’Odalas was a young queen yet learned in the ways of war and politics. She knew that the embattle Evedal forces wouldn’t be able to defend their southern clans for long and would have to call for aid from their allies of the Sotadal in the Eastern Islands. Jha’Nis Fionamu would have to gain a strong foothold and capture a major settlement if she was to be able to challenge the leaders of both nations.

The storm season was just around the corner and the siege of Laer Oruhl was taking longer than anticipated, so couldn't depend on using that as a base camp. Knowing that once storms hit the Southern Rains would become one giant marsh that would extremely difficult for an army to traverse, Fionamu looked west to the forests and grasses of the Maer, setting her sights on the town of Keivas. Although she already had forces moving through the Red Wind Hills Fionamu couldn’t use this a path into Keivas as the hills were perfect for ambush and prone to flash floods during the storm seasons. Her only viable choice would be to capture the small trading post at Weides, back then only a small village and keep. Capturing the bridge there would allow the rapid redeployment of her forces in the Southern Rains into the Maer-Dal lands. Unfortunately for her, Jha’Nas Kadis al’Evedaori was an experienced general and had already anticipated Fionamu’s move had already seized the river crossing at Weides.”

Enough of that talk. This map depicts Weides about 2 weeks (18 days in this world) before the Odadal forces arrived. Jha’Nas Kadis had already been fortifying the settlement for three months, turning the once small trade post into a bustling war camp.

I've been using Ascension's town tut (great tut Ascension :) ) for this map and this is what i have so far. As you can see I've got a long way to go, next up I'll be putting in the tents in the main camp. What do you think, how am i doing so far?


01-07-2010, 09:17 AM
Looks good so far, but of course I'm biased.

01-07-2010, 09:05 PM
I'm a bit worried by the "dry brushed" grass. If you've painted tabletop war figurines, you'll know what I mean.

01-07-2010, 09:26 PM
Yeah, I've already made some changes to the dry-brushed grass, I'm a table top gamer too so i know what you mean, well I used to be.

While we're not on the subject, would an army of 5000 be too small or large? If it helps the current technology level is about the same as when the Romans rose to power, they've just ditched bronze and have started using iron. They don't have a lot of steel yet. Also, what kinds of war machines would be available to an army at this time, i know they had simpler weapons like scorpians and small catapults, but what would a oreintal army have? My culture for these people isn't entirely oriental but it does borrow alot from oriental cultures, namely Japanese and Chinese cultures.


01-07-2010, 11:19 PM
They'd have simple rockets for sure, inaccurate though they were, they did wind around and create a bit of chaos on the battlefield.

01-07-2010, 11:41 PM
Hmmm, not so sure about rockets, I'm to angle away from black powder weapons. The idea is that about the time that our world started turning away from swords and bows and taking up handguns and cannons my world takes up a technology known as Mage-Science (also known as Tech-Magic or Industiral Sorcery). Mage-Science is bacisally magical devies that can be used by non-magical people.

Enough of that, here's an update on the map. I've done the rest of the camps, fixed up the roads, added another stable, toned down the land a bit, fixed up the forest treeline, added wells and put in a whole lot of brown dots to indicate where trees have been cut down (those palisades had to have come from somewhere).

Next I'll be putting in a small field hospital and some training grounds, what else should I add for inside the camp, i already have plans for the big empty areas to the east. I also have plans to put in things like carts, boxes, a field buffet line to feed the troops and small work stations scattered around the camp, places where soldiers can maintain their gear and fletch arrows and stuff.

Also on a side note, I've decided to make my armies unisex, a person's caste and heritage plays more a vital role in determining their status than their sex in this culture. Still, there would a lot of women at home who would be childbearers so I figured that would lessen the number of women in the armed forces from a 1:1 split to a something more like a 2:1 split, would this be right or should I raise/lower it?


01-08-2010, 12:36 AM
I'd cut some holes in the rows of tents for campfires - that's where the guys will sit around at night chit chatting for a while and they'd heat their tea there too instead of going to the mess line. Plus, they can eat there as well and sing rowdy songs. You'll also need a place for the wash and some lines to hang the clothes on to dry. Need a place for latrines. Just some brainstorming, shrug, use if ya want.

01-08-2010, 01:19 AM
Okay, I can afford to lose some tents. My army math shows that I have 136 spare tents so I can easily make some space for campfires and lines and stuff. I can build latrines but they would have to be down stream, hygiene is a touchy subject amongst the Dal People and even soldier in wartime are obliged to bathe when possible. I was also going to create some garbage dumps but with the hygiene thing I figured they'd just dump it in the river, the enemy is also downriver so that could be another reason to dump it there.


01-09-2010, 05:37 AM
Not much of an update but still something.

I went through the camp and replaced a lot of the tents with camp fires and I also toned down the land a bit more. I also added some more details that are very important to the camp, they're hard to see but if you follow the road heading south from the camp you'll find some of them.


01-09-2010, 01:16 PM
While we're not on the subject, would an army of 5000 be too small or large?

Hard to say. It depends on population levels. An army of 5000 in early medieval England would be enormous. An army of 5000 in classical Persia would be miniscule. Farming technology and soil type will have a lot to do with how great a population a piece of land can support.

Some reference numbers: When the Japanese invaded Korea in 1591, they had an army of about 15,000, of whom 350 were mounted samurai, 2600 were those knights' fighting retainers, and about 1200 were conscripted peasants. The rest were camp followers.

At the Battle of Hastings, William's Norman army numbered approximately 10,000 professional soldiers. Harold's Saxons and Danes are estimated at about 8,000, although his maximum estimated army size was around 25,000, mostly conscripts.

Those were both very large conflicts in the context of when and where they took place.

In contrast to that, Genghis Khan (early 1200's A.D.) is said to have raised armies of up to 100,000 warriors, with his largest unit of military organization being the Tumen—10,000 men, all cavalry.

Herodotus claims that Xerxes raised an army of 2 million soldiers for his campaign against the Greeks. Herodotus has often been accused of exaggeration, though. I've heard estimates as low as 60,000, but that's still a lot of smelly dudes all in one place.

The average Roman legion in the 4th century BC, according to Livy, was about 4800 foot. The standing army was about six legions, but they could raise quite a few more at need.

In 218 BC, Hannibal invaded Italy with about 20,000 foot, 4000 horse, and a handful of elephants (he had 38,000 infantry and 30-something elephants when he left Gaul, but he'd had to leave 11,000 men behind as a garrison to guard his rear. The rest perished in the mountains.)

If it helps the current technology level is about the same as when the Romans rose to power, they've just ditched bronze and have started using iron. They don't have a lot of steel yet. Also, what kinds of war machines would be available to an army at this time, i know they had simpler weapons like scorpians and small catapults, but what would a oreintal army have? My culture for these people isn't entirely oriental but it does borrow alot from oriental cultures, namely Japanese and Chinese cultures.

The Chinese and Koreans were quite inventive. Their earliest counterweight-operated catapults date from as early as 500 B.C. (the Warring States Period), and manually-operated lever catapults were in use earlier still.

Here's an excellent reference about Chinese siege weapons (http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/index-english12122007.html).

The Japanese and Mongols were typically much more straightforward than the Chinese and Koreans. The Mongols simply threw more soldiers into the fight. The Japanese designed catapults to kill people, but they apparently had some kind of blind spot concerning walls—the defenders often rode out of the castle to fight instead of staying safe behind their fortifications, so there was little need to design machines to breach a castle.

The Assyrians built siege towers, battering rams, and ladders in the 8th century B.C. They also made use of sappers. Rock throwers and ballistae did not see much use in Europe and the Middle East until the Romans. Alexander the Great (4th Century B.C.) did make good use of catapults, though.

Steel General
01-10-2010, 08:50 AM
Didn't notice until I took a second look at this - which is quite nice so far.

Your forest texture in the north has a case of 'tiling'. Not a big deal really but I thought I'd point it out anyway.

01-11-2010, 12:21 PM
I like it. The cut-down forrest is one of these details that adds depth to the map. You should perhaps add some more fortifications (like trenches) towards the direction form where the attack is expected.

01-11-2010, 05:07 PM
Also, their concept of "army" may not have been just "people with weapons and armour to hack things up" but may have included all of the "additional staff" needed to keep those people in battle. So for every group of 10 soldiers you might have 2 or 3 "support staff" maintaining horses, maintaining this, cooking that, etc, etc, etc as well as medical staff and nurses.

So while Xerxes may have had an army of 2million, I doubt he actually put 2 million people into a battle at any point in time.

01-11-2010, 07:01 PM
I've already taken earthworks like trenches into consideration, I specifically made that area empty so i can put them in later, i'm working on the camp at the moment.

I've also already considered non-combat personel. My current army breakdown divides troops into 3 main groups, each group double as a form of non-combat personel when not fighting, they are as followed...

Career Soldiers - Trained as fletchers, blacksmiths, cooks and retainers to the nobles.
Conscripts - Double as manual labour (wood cutters, builders, diggers, etc.)
Irregulars - Hunters and gatherers, scouts and beastmasters

I also have around 200 medical personel on site as well as 50 priests for morale and blessings.


01-11-2010, 07:34 PM
I'd just like to say that Midgarsormr's post on the last page was a really excellent, informative post. Nice one.

01-11-2010, 09:41 PM
Lone> I don't think you're going to have the dual-ability you think you might have.

Most of your career soldiers will be trained at maintaining armour, weapons, tackle, riding kit, etc. They will have a separate group of trained smiths who would be making nails, arrowheads, spear-points, etc, etc, etc. Ditto for the others (fletchers maybe not, but only the archer regiment would make their own arrows)