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Thread: CWBP 2 Template Thread - Rulers, Countries & Civilizations

  1. #11
      gspRooster is offline
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    Yeah, and we have a case. We're trying to develop a fictional world. You can't expect that to be accomplished in any reasonable way by fiddling over crazy high level stuff like whether or not the world has magic for weeks at a time. Throw the ideas out there, let people mull them over, then toss in some details. The details will mold the high level stuff around them and it'll work out.

    World building from the outside in may work for some people, but frankly it doesn't make any sense to me. Build it the way you want your players to see it, from the inside out. Your players are going to be individual characters, and if you don't have a personalized sense of the world your characters are living in then it doesn't matter how mechanically accurate rivers or climates are, or whether it makes sense from an astronomical perspective if the planet has one moon or five. Your players really don't give a damn. They just want something fun, relate-able and interesting. And you're not getting anywhere near that if you don't even have a remote sense of what the people who actually live in this world are like.
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  2. #12
      Jalyha is offline
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    I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you - it makes sense to me either way - but this is a cooperative project - not one person's, and everyone has to agree on things.

    I think they are building from the outside in, because that's the way it worked before - with the last CWBP. Maybe everyone will like your way better, and people will choose to switch to figuring out the civilizations first. But as this is a mapping project, the land itself is pretty important - maybe the most important, so I just don't know how many people will agree.
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  3. #13
      gspRooster is offline
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    Here's where we have a fundamental disconnect in our understanding of this project.

    You're saying we need to know what the land looks like. I'm offering two suggestions for two segments right here. I need to understand what part of that you're having a hard time understanding in order to understand where you're coming from. You want to fill in the entire geography first, and then put the people in it, as opposed to filling in partial pieces of the geography a little at a time, and already having an idea of what the people look like?

    Don't you think that's a nonsensical disagreement for something that is accomplishing the exact same goal? I never said these civs were set in stone or that we had to use them. I'm offering suggestions for what parts of the world could look like, and what the people that inhabit the area might be like.

    And that seems to be resulting in a tizzy that I don't understand. If the goal was to drive in a circle, and half the car said let's go left, the other half said let's go right, does it really matter how you get there? No, because you're driving in a circle. The assertion that this thread is a bad idea is non-productive. Nobody is forcing these civs to be used. But nobody else is coming up with any ideas, so I put a few out there.
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  4. #14
      12rounds is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jalyha View Post
    I think they are building from the outside in, because that's the way it worked before - with the last CWBP.
    Except it didn't really work that well.

  5. #15
      Ghostman is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by gspRooster View Post
    You're saying we need to know what the land looks like. I'm offering two suggestions for two segments right here. I need to understand what part of that you're having a hard time understanding in order to understand where you're coming from. You want to fill in the entire geography first, and then put the people in it, as opposed to filling in partial pieces of the geography a little at a time, and already having an idea of what the people look like?
    Yes. Personally, I can't fathom how I should reasonably come up with something like an entire civilization when I don't have any grasp on the physical world wherein this civilization is to be placed - because, this being a cooperative project, none of us gets to dictate in advance what kind of landscape we'll end up with.

    Civilizations do not arise in a vacuum, they are shaped profoundly by the environment they live in. If I were to try and create such a setting element in a vacuum, it could very well turn out to be incompatible with the eventual collectively determined geography.

    Quote Originally Posted by gspRooster View Post
    Don't you think that's a nonsensical disagreement for something that is accomplishing the exact same goal? I never said these civs were set in stone or that we had to use them. I'm offering suggestions for what parts of the world could look like, and what the people that inhabit the area might be like.

    And that seems to be resulting in a tizzy that I don't understand. If the goal was to drive in a circle, and half the car said let's go left, the other half said let's go right, does it really matter how you get there? No, because you're driving in a circle. The assertion that this thread is a bad idea is non-productive. Nobody is forcing these civs to be used. But nobody else is coming up with any ideas, so I put a few out there.
    It seems like a good amount of potentially wasted effort if the things in this thread are to be so readily discarded. Not that I have anything against anyone else taking their time to write this stuff, but I myself am definitely going to wait until we're settled on a big picture of the world (including decisions on technology, magic and such) before I'll even start thinking about it's inhabitants.

  6. #16
      12rounds is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostman View Post
    ...but I myself am definitely going to wait until we're settled on a big picture of the world (including decisions on technology, magic and such) before I'll even start thinking about it's inhabitants.
    Herein lies a big problem.

    I wan't to get involved with the premise that I can use the end result setting for gaming purposes. Whereas someone else might consider the CWBP primarily as a mapping exercise and consider the world "finished" when there's enough maps to pave a way to the local grocery store. If the people more interested in the gaming aspect of the end result need to wait until enough of the groundwork (ie. mapping) is finished, agreed upon and finalized, there will be no one left to create the inhabitants, political systems, micro-climates, history, cultures and fauna&flora because I don't think the same people that create maps are necessarily the same people that want/could/should create other aspects of the project.

    The templates proposed are easily adapted to accommodate whatever the mapping project's output is going to be.
    Last edited by 12rounds; 02-01-2014 at 07:04 AM.

  7. #17
      gspRooster is offline
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    Yeah, well you can sit around and wait for that to happen. I think I'll be better off withdrawing my support from this project.

    This is an extremely poorly thought our project. There is no oversight, no clearly defined method of making suggestions, nobody has been delegated to guide anything, nobody even knows in any practical manner how you plan on coming up with a world for this project, and when I offer two suggestions for a portion of the world they get shot down because... what? Suggestions aren't allowed until you know what the map looks like? I just made two suggestions that you could have deliberated on and made some progress with if you'd had any sense towards this project ever getting anywhere.

    I don't know how you expect this attempt to magically reach consensus on something that neither has a clearly defined process for, nor explained in any rational manner how it proposes to reach a consensus on anything when the basis for consensus has so far been "he who screams the loudest amongst the anarchy must clearly be only voice that matters".

    No thanks. I wish the project all the luck in the world, but honestly it's a mess. Good luck. I'd rather go to work on something else on my own.

  8. #18
      Jalyha is offline
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    There's no need to get testy.

    No one said that it was a bad idea or that you couldn't do it. No one said take it down, or stop.

    But not everyone IS going to like every idea. If it's part of a cooperative project, it's ALL going to be open to discussion - including *when* to do certain things. As with anything else in life there are pros and cons and what are pros to some people will be cons to other people and vice versa. People will express dissent at things they don't like and/or question things they don't understand.

    That's part of a COMMUNITY project. You're right, there's no real "leadership" because it isn't meant to be a profitable (or even solely a *gaming* exercise) it's meant to be a group project and that's what it is. No single person gets to decide.

    Your suggestions got shot down (by some people) because those people don't think it's a good idea. That's part of life. Everyone isn't going to like your ideas, and they don't have to just go along without saying so.

    Your suggestions got shows of support (by some people) because those people think it IS a good idea. That's part of life too.

    Other people (myself included) try asking questions and making commentary because they are undecided on how things should go, and want to understand.

    All three groups of people have a right to voice their opinions at *Every* stage of the process, in every single CWBP thread.

    If you can't handle that, and you don't want to be part of the project because of it, then no one can stop you from walking away. That's *your* choice.

    But there is no need to be rude or insulting about it.

    And now that I've said my piece, I shall wish you a good day, sir.
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  9. #19
      Falconius is offline
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    I'm not sure what stirred up this drama. I was only gone for a day, I feel like I missed out.

    I don't see a problem with having specific cultures ready to hit the ground running, things can be edited when it becomes necessary. People also are going to have vastly different approaches to the CWBP 2.

    My personal thought was that once we had the world map with the plots people would take their plots and develop the things in those plots as they saw fit, not only maps but the presences therein the cultures etc. Whatever parts they felt like. This way it could be built according to the personal preference of the author of that plot. Inside out, or outside in.

    For myself I thought this thread would be dealing with far more generalized aspects. Either way though I think it could work. To me though I also feel the need to wait for the main map in order to get a handle on my understanding of the world and to help organize what is going on. Being that there is now a sense of urgency about this perhaps we should make a call for entries and set up with a vote.
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  10. #20
      Azelor is offline
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    You brought a bunch of good ideas in you last message GspRooster. You are right about the fact that it's a poorly organized project. I might be (or I have been) the closest thing to a leader but on the other hand, I don't really know what I'm doing... or what needs to be done. I have my own DnD campaign world but I've never done one collectively. Sure, it works better alone but it's time consuming and it probably won't be as original as the group project. I admit that at first, I taught that the first step was to get a map because that's how the last project proceeded. The top-down approach is working well for mappers but not so well for the others. (Top down) So far, I have to admit that this as gotten us nowhere.

    On the other thread, I never said that it was a bad idea to post descriptions; I just said it was better to stay vague to avoid conflicts with other part of the project. I do not like the fact that some idea has to be cancelled or postponed since it hinder creativity. In fact, I wanted (and still think about it but haven't had the time to do it properly yet) to submit some templates and maybe submitting an idea. Every idea you be open for discussion. I think it's a good idea to know what kind of content people like. By the time we start mapping, we could already have souls to add to the map.



    As for how to proceed: how about the least bad form of government: democracy? I consider that not every idea should have his poll. Your civs for example, normally we should not have to vote about them, they would be accepted as long as they are well thought and if they fit in the campaign but still open for suggestion for improvements/modification. Unless someone as a good reason to disagree with your idea, there are no valid points to discard the content. Yet, sometimes a voting is required. Then what?

    Do we go with a:

    50%+1: a clear majority,
    Problem: we need to find a way to achieve 50% and that is not always easy when there are many choices but that’s how United States democracy works... (Where it doesn’t work even with 2 choices) Also, how to avoid stalemate: 50/50? Someone could have a special vote, meaning he would have 2 votes instead of one in case of a tie vote.

    Two turn election: we only keep the 2 leading choices for the second turn in order to achieve a majority of votes. That way, we are sure that the winner has clear support. The problem is that it would be more complicated but that’s how France democracy works... (Where people seems to elect president they don’t even like)

    Plurality: (or first past the post) the choice that get the most votes win, even if it’s just 2 votes.
    Problem: lack of votes gives a poor legitimacy to the choice but that’s how Canadian democracy works… (Where people get elected with 30% of the votes of the 60% of people that voted)
    How to avoid stalemate here?



    That being said: polls not always, threads yes. I mean, every idea should have his thread. But there is a problem: huge number of threads = confusion.

    Solution1: the project gets his own subsection on the forum. The possibility to have sections inside the sub form would be even better but I doubt it will. A simpler solution would be to have an index or a table of content in a sticky thread.

    Solution 2: CWBP2 Wiki
    I am reluctant to use it because it brings us farther from the community. There are also security concerns…



    Another thing that I learn: if you want something done, it’s better not to wait on others because it might never get done. Especially if you keep the idea to yourself. So if you think that something should be done, like opening a new thread, go for it! This is all our project and its success or failure depends on everyone contribution.


    EDIT: TAG added
    Last edited by Azelor; 02-01-2014 at 01:56 PM.
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