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Thread: I need to complain

  1. #11
      Redrobes is offline
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    I changed my link to the guild from my book marks to go into the forums and show the last 24hrs worth of posts because I just cant keep up with every last post any more. Even now every day its three pages of new posts. And so I will admit that I am choosing threads now based on the titles. Not being a great artist or a user of Gimp, PS or CC3, I have found that generally I cant make sensible comments about mapping techniques. I touch on the threads that have a technical side or terrain maps etc and I try to do the new members welcomes too. So apologies to anyone who is feeling that they are not getting good advice. I would hope that people who joined up a few months back and got some good results might be able to post comments and forum links for steps that would help.

  2. #12
    Guild Member TheSilentOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScenesFromAMemory View Post
    I am just getting started here myself, but I do know that you have to give your audience something to work with. Ask questions and if you have very specific things you need help with, be very specific. The beginning of the ability to learn is the ability to ask. Instead, you come here and complain that the community isn't doing enough for you. I have been operating here about as long as you, and the community has been very helpful and very welcoming to me. I think its because I engage them in a dialog, instead of expecting handouts. Contribute to the community and it will give back to you more than you give to it. Even if you feel you don't know a whole lot, surely you can add something. Part of learning is exposing those weak areas anyway. But please don't come into the General Discussion board and post a complaint thread. The complaint isn't well founded. Complaining about failure to receive free advice and critique just makes it look like you thrive on attention.
    That is all nice and epic, but you totally missread what I said.

  3. #13
    Publisher Gamerprinter's Avatar
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    In the end, we are a community of cartographers that help each other out, we are not a "service" that provides map rating and recommendations. When community members can help, we do that for each other, but cannot be expected to do so - only when we can. You sound like you are ringing the "front counter bell" asking for service - again this is a community not a business. You need to have patience - and complaining isn't the method of getting map attention from anyone.

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  4. #14
    Guild Member TheSilentOne's Avatar
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    I see myself getting my ass kicked here, so I will just shut up from now on.

  5. #15
    Guild Artisan Greason Wolfe's Avatar
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    Well, I was trying to think of a way to chime in here without seeming confrontational . . .

    The best thing I can recommend is patience.

    Having been here for about a year and a half now, I've developed a new level of patience when posting maps or starting discussions. Some of my maps garner lots of comments and some of them garner very little attention. When posting a WIP, I tend, also, to ask specifics, particularly with sections of the map I'm not exactly happy with or having difficulty with, so that those who might offer up comments can focus their attention on those problem areas.

    It isn't that we don't want to help members that are new to mapping. I think most of us here are quite happy to offer up what help we can to new and old members alike. What it all boils down to is, as others have pointed out, more a matter of time for many of us. Because of certain health issues in my family, I have gone through streaks of availability to offer up any comments or suggestions. There are times when I can visit the forum several times a day for several days in a row, and then there are times when it may be a week or two between visits. As Redrobes pointed out, there can be two to three pages worth of new posts over the course of a day, and keeping up with all of them can be very difficult.

    It is also a matter of application familiarity. If someone is posting a map made through applications I'm not familiar with, the best I can do is offer comments regarding how the map looks and what might make it look better, but I can't offer any suggestions on the technical steps that might be needed. This is the case for many of us, as well. While some applications may have similar technical abilities, what works in one application may not work exactly the same in another application.

    Again, I think it all boils down to patience and a willingness to ask for less generalized comments, suggestions or criticisms with any WIPs you're working on.

    GW

    P.S. There's no need to "just shut up from now on." We all have our bad days, and there's always tomorrow.
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  6. #16
      torstan is offline
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    Edit: Ninja'd by Greason

    Yep, I agree. Certainly no need to shut up from now on. We are a friendly community and we do try to be helpful and welcoming to new members. It can certainly be disheartening to put stuff up and not get many comments and I know I feel guilty that I don't get a chance to read through threads as much and give feedback. I'm going to try and be a bit more proactive because your post highlighted something I was already thinking I should do. So thanks for that.

    As for practical ways forward, I'd say that you should look around and find people with maps that you admire (preferably people that are currently active on the forum). Send them a pm asking if they'd provide some C&C on the map you're working on. I may not have time to look through all the threads, but if someone messages me and say 'I have this map and something's just not working - can you take a look?' I'll always try to make time to go in and look over it. This way you'll get focused critiques from people who you want advice from, rather than just hoping that someone will chance across your map and be able to see what's going on.

    The guild started very small not that long ago. We've grown pretty big now and we're going through something of a transition. I think your point highlights one of the downsides of getting very large and it's worth addressing how we handle that.

    One way of doing this is posting to the How Do I...? forum. This allows you to post a very specific question that people can try to answer. It's different from asking for critiques of a map (and shouldn't be used for that) but it is a way of asking for very focused help.

    I agree with what people have said that members don't have a right to expect free service here. However we do have the say when we see a problem and expect not to get flamed. I think that the comments from some long time members in this thread saying that they don't have the time to check all the threads any more like they used to highlights that there is an issue with people not being able to offer as much advice as they used to. So your initial comment has certainly raised some interesting points, and I'm glad you brought the issue up.
    Last edited by torstan; 07-01-2010 at 11:05 AM.
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  7. #17
    Guild Artisan Greason Wolfe's Avatar
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    Woohooo, I finally Ninja'd somebody

    Torstan did throw up a good point, though. And he's absolutely right, it is good that the issue was brought up. Maybe it wasn't the best way to bring the issue up, but no use crying over spilt milk, as the saying goes. Maybe it's time for another sub-forum of sorts, one for members that are new (or recently new) to the craft and looking for help getting started. That, of course, would be up to the RobA and Robbie, but it might be helpful. Dunno, just a thought.

    GW
    When nothing is going right and you can't find someone else to blame, start beating your head against the wall, 'cause it'll feel so much better when you stop.

  8. #18
      jfrazierjr is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by torstan View Post
    As for practical ways forward, I'd say that you should look around and find people with maps that you admire (preferably people that are currently active on the forum). Send them a pm asking if they'd provide some C&C on the map you're working on. I may not have time to look through all the threads, but if someone messages me and say 'I have this map and something's just not working - can you take a look?' I'll always try to make time to go in and look over it. This way you'll get focused critiques from people who you want advice from, rather than just hoping that someone will chance across your map and be able to see what's going on.
    I will echo this. Personally, I have PM'ed a few specific people who I respect and admire and do maps similar to the project in question to take a look and see if they could offer any specific advice. Sometimes I ask very specific questions, and sometimes it's just a "hey, can you check this out to see if you can think of anything that might improve it". I will say that I have sent a few such PM's to Torstan(among one or two others) and he(all of them really) has always been very good about getting back to me fairly quickly (as in a day or two if not faster).

    Quote Originally Posted by torstan View Post
    The guild started very small not that long ago. We've grown pretty big now and we're going through something of a transition. I think your point highlights one of the downsides of getting very large and it's worth addressing how we handle that.

    One way of doing this is posting to the How Do I...? forum. This allows you to post a very specific question that people can try to answer. It's different from asking for critiques of a map (and shouldn't be used for that) but it is a way of asking for very focused help.

    I agree with what people have said that members don't have a right to expect free service here. However we do have the say when we see a problem and expect not to get flamed. I think that the comments from some long time members in this thread saying that they don't have the time to check all the threads any more like they used to highlights that there is an issue with people not being able to offer as much advice as they used to. So your initial comment has certainly raised some interesting points, and I'm glad you brought the issue up.
    As many people have pointed out, the board has exploded with growth in the past 1-2 years. While I have not been around as long as some of the more active members, I believe I began posting near the beginning of 2008 or so and at that time, there were hardly ever more than a single page of threads updated during any one day(now it's 2-4). And while there were sometimes lot's of posts, most of them were from the same small group of people helping as someone posted updates(which in some cases was an new update 3-4 times a day on the same project.) With the large number of threads updated each day, I find it hard to keep up in my limited time... heck, even as a CL, I have not had as much time to do things I should be doing in that capacity with any frequency....
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  9. #19
      Ascension is offline
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    I think we can put this to bed now. We all try our best but sometimes we all miss something.
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  10. #20
      RobA is offline
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    All - Thanks for the well-though out responses to this post.

    @TheSilentOne - Thanks for getting up the guts to post. One of the big things we like to have here is a feeling of community, and if that vibe isn't being felt then we should come up with ideas on how to improve things. Your feeling of "getting your ass kicked" is exactly why the more senior posters here stick with the philosophy of complementing the positive and ignoring the negative... we don't want people to post a map, receive a bunch of criticism, then say "They suck, I'm leaving 'cause they were mean". If you want harsh but constructive criticism, please request it explicitly and you will most likely get it.

    Looking at your more recent posts, it seems you are a bit happier with the feedback you are receiving, so hope all is good now.

    -Rob A>

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