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Thread: Pandrea [critics & advice welcome]

  1. #11
      jbgibson is offline
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    HEY. Any time I hear something that sounds a bit like "These aren't the droids you are looking for. Move along" I am naturally drawn to look, and closely :-). Besides, a number of us Guildsmen do speak French (for me I should rather say I READ a little, and understand very roughly...) And for the rest, there is of course approaching your site through Google Translate :-).

    Does "to retcon" have an equivalent in French? Retroactive continuity. I.e. to add material to a backstory to permit desired present and future events? If one has a flexible imagination it may take only tiny tweaks of past history to accomplish one's goals; since a game world is inherently sketchily detailed, betimes it only requires adding bits that really don't even change history.

    Sixteen thousand messages on the game board? Yes, you have well illustrated the fact that the map has a great deal of background- and understandable some of that will be unchangable. i just look on a fixed set of constraints as a huge opportunity for creatively engineering the solution I want. "Make a dessert" is not so great a challenge. "Using this flat lite beer, these nineteen chili peppers, and this ostrich egg, create a dessert to present to these four judgemental, skeptical, and jaded cordon bleu chefs. You have twelve minutes. Go." Now THAT's a challenge :-)

  2. #12
      Lukc is offline
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    "We are not amused," quoth the bleu chef.

    On another note - I like how you're doing the height-map. What are you using to render it? Inkscape?

  3. #13
    Guild Novice Bisol von Sint-Omer's Avatar
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    I am greatly surprised and glad in the interest you are giving to our map, especially considering the size of this forum (which sometimes is a negative point as one project is invisible among the 10 others of the day). Also, I have to admit Heinrich and I look a bit like the star wars droids, especially if you consider that my personnage in the comic strip (we used the universe for many types of activities) is quite a drwarf while Heinrich is tall Nevertheless, I am HochMeister, so, da big boss of me land.
    I am currently hesitating with starting a blank universe, so that I am using your advices from the very beginning, rather than spending hours in integrating them in a somewhat complex background. Of course, I would use my previous work to quickly boost some steps. Let's see what Heinrich thinks about it.
    NB : if you like to have a look at more maps (I think you love that ) you can find many scratches of maps on the forum, in the game/initial context/maps folders

    EDIT : just noticed the star wars reference was for the "this forum is not interesting, move along" rather than for Heinrich and I arguying. You will soon discover the second interpretation is quite appropriate.
    Last edited by Bisol von Sint-Omer; 04-15-2012 at 03:21 PM.

  4. #14
    Guild Novice Bisol von Sint-Omer's Avatar
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    So, considering our map, would you rather suggest to start it back from the begining, or to correct its faults. In the second case, what would seem a priority for you (the rivers have been noted already) ?

  5. #15
    Guild Novice Heinrich Zweihänder's Avatar
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    @jbgibson You're right on the whole thing.

    @lukc the height map is done with inkscape, yeah. This is a custom filter because I prefer to code my own than to search through the 100 pre-made filters the conveniant one. It basically use the color matrix effect to convert gray value to alpha channel, then use the diffuse lighting effect to generate a grayscale image of the lighting with a distant light. The grayscale is merged with the background with a composite effect in the custom arithmetic mode. On top of that filter I usually add a "rought paper" filter to get a slighty rough surface. It works almost the same way, but its input is a perlin noise. I can write a tuto for it if anyone wants.

    @bisol This is a common reference : https://github.com/404.
    For the new blank map, this is new concept, I have no idea what is best to do. Jeez, you've just managed to put my work in stand-by with one suggestion. If you want to restart the map, you ought to ask the other on the forum
    Last edited by Heinrich Zweihänder; 04-18-2012 at 04:28 AM.

  6. #16
      Hai-Etlik is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbgibson View Post
    Speaking of Hai-Etlik :-) if I suggest slapping a latitude/longitude grid or graticule on willy-nilly, I'll get in trouble :-)... but if you *do* want to hold yourself to the implied precision of such an overlay, synchronizing the gridlines with your filter boxes could hide the linear artifacts. Only doable if you have a rectangular projection going on -- unless you get fancy with the shapes of your filter boxes, which would seem to be a bit excessive. For that matter, a locator grid doesn't have to match any particular projection, so long as you make it clear by labeling your axes that that's all it is (say, A,B,C... one way; 1,2,3 the other). But the only reason for a map to have a locator grid is if you have a bunch of scattered items the reader wants to find - or if there's stuff you want to label that would make the map too busy otherwise.
    Depending on the extent of the map, there is a fairly simple way to come up with a graticule: http://www.cartographersguild.com/sh...ules-Made-Easy

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinrich Zweihänder View Post
    @lukc the height map is done with inkscape, yeah. This is a custom filter because I prefer to code my own than to search through the 100 pre-made filters the conveniant one. It basically use the color matrix effect to convert gray value to alpha channel, then use the diffuse lighting effect to generate a grayscale image of the lighting with a distant light. The grayscale is merged with the background with a composite effect in the custom arithmetic mode. On top of that filter I usually add a "rought paper" filter to get a slighty rough surface. It works almost the same way, but its input is a perlin noise. I can write a tuto for it if anyone wants.
    I think you're the first other person on this forum I've seen using Filter Effects in Inkscape.

    Given the complexity and varied data sets of this map, you might be in territory where a GIS wouldn't be the utterly ridiculous overkill it would normally be for fantasy maps. Using one would allow you to create multiple maps from a single pool of raw data fairly easily, and it should allow for a better shaded relief effect, especially if you were to switch to a proper Digital Elevation Model rather than a simple greyscale image. You do end up with the problem of needing an editor capable of editing a floating point GeoTIFF as if it were a normal image though.

    This tutorial is rather terse, and not complete (I'll get back to it at some point), but it should give you an idea of whether you want to try a GIS: http://www.cartographersguild.com/sh...-for-using-GIS Several GISes are available for Linux, including QuantumGIS, which I use in that tutorial.

  7. #17
    Guild Novice Bisol von Sint-Omer's Avatar
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    Using a GIS ? I may need to get familiar with that type of programs to generate maps of biodiversity hotspots, in order to evaluate the efficiency of the european network of biodiversity conservation to protect birds (Natura 2000). I will definitively consider the idea. Also, considering the fact my partner (Heinrich) is mathematicaly minded, we may manage to do some good work (about Pandrea). Your suggestions, of course, will be of great use too. This is kind of funny, as I downloaded QuantumGIS a minute before reading your post (bioogical purpose). I knew I should have studied geography By the way, if anyone is interested in ecological processes for his maps, I would gladly be helpful ^^

    EDIT : Can we somehow use inkscape or whichever program to save our map in a format that QuantumGIS can use ? And would you rather use QuantumGis or ArcGis, that I may have to use in the future (meaning I have to work on my windows session) ?
    Last edited by Bisol von Sint-Omer; 04-20-2012 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Wondering how to start with GIS

  8. #18
    Guild Novice Heinrich Zweihänder's Avatar
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    @Hai-Etlik I bet we have to start over then…

    I'm afraid a GIS is a bit too scientific tool, hence… with ugly output ? I feel this map in a more artistic way, but if I can get nice image with a GIS, maybe i could use it.

    @Bisol: Bwahaha spherical coordinates are so easy, you don't need my mathematical skill to use them (and I refuse to use a more accurate system). If you want to work with me probably better to use qgis, although I'm unsure I'm willing to learn yet another tool. It's up to you.

    To avoid posting without a picture here is the trees I made a week ago :
    Pandrea [critics & advice welcome]-use3762.png Pandrea [critics & advice welcome]-use4058.png

    The evergreens were not painted with the same opacity and I find it quite nice, but a bit weird when compared to the broad-leaf trees.
    Last edited by Heinrich Zweihänder; 04-21-2012 at 09:08 AM. Reason: missing "if"

  9. #19
    Guild Novice Bisol von Sint-Omer's Avatar
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    Looks Japaneese, so looks cool I am currently downloading geocontrol 2 and vue 9 pioneer to give a try at those tools.
    The GIS may be useful to implement lots of data that would help to generate different types of maps. My duty shall I say, as you would rather use your skills to work on the design Anyway, nothing prevent us to try different ways. Let's summarize our tools :
    - Inkscape
    - Gimp
    - Quantum GIS
    - GeoControl 2
    - Vue 9 pioneer
    - Geomod

    The last one can give some pretty results. I shall present this on this forum, as I don't believe many people are initiated to the tool. I will start a windows session tonight, so that I can make print screen for you.
    I just have a scratch to present you, if you are interested :
    Pandrea [critics & advice welcome]-montage.png

    On the left side : part of the inkscape map
    On the right side : medieval 2 campaign map designed with geomod (no trees, not many textures, no cities, etc... implemented yet)

    By the way Heinrich, have you given a look to this tutorial ? http://www.cartographersguild.com/sh...gional-RPG-Map
    Last edited by Bisol von Sint-Omer; 04-21-2012 at 11:50 AM.
    http://pandrea.team-talk.net/f45-cartes -> quite a mess of Pandrea related maps

  10. #20
    Guild Novice Bisol von Sint-Omer's Avatar
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    Pandrea [critics & advice welcome]-sample-1.png
    Pandrea [critics & advice welcome]-sample2.png
    Pandrea [critics & advice welcome]-sample3.png

    Here are some more sample I quickly made tonight. You will notice some errors witht the rivers etc, but it should be fairly easy to avoir them by working more properly. Those pictures are from my "Pandrea mod" for M2TW, working with geomod.
    I have to add that, as this is an application for a video game, the problems are :
    -> you need the game
    -> I have never found out if it is possible to fully unzoom, the second picture showing the maximum unzoom level within the game
    -> you cannot draw elements that would cause the game to crash, for insteance a city in an unreachable place

    However, in case some of you would be interested in a test, and don't own the game, I may explain them how to work with tga files so that I can use them in the game and generate the printscreens. I don't expect anyone to be interested, but one never knows....
    Last edited by Bisol von Sint-Omer; 04-21-2012 at 04:14 PM.
    http://pandrea.team-talk.net/f45-cartes -> quite a mess of Pandrea related maps

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