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Thread: Spelljammer Map of the Flow (WIP)

  1. #21
      bartmoss is offline
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    Okay, this is what I came up with:
    Inner Tracks:
    2 - Goras (Earth, Sphere, Size E)
    3 - Sharee (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    5 - Enderra (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    8 - Kayla (Earth, Sphere, Size G)

    Outer Track
    3 - Delora (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    5 - Celste (Air/Fire, Sphere, Size H)
    7 - Aeron (Air, Sphere, Size G)
    9 - Aguara (Water, Sphere, Size F)
    13 - Orec (Air, Sphere, Size G)
    14 - Mikturu (Water, Sphere, Size F)
    15 - Dakordu (Water Ice, Sphere, Size E)
    19 - Nemesis (Earth/Ice, Sphere, Size E)
    38 - Shell

    Does that sound reasonable? Can always tighten the orbits if that makes it too big again.

  2. #22
      Nerik is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartmoss View Post
    Okay, this is what I came up with:
    Inner Tracks:
    2 - Goras (Earth, Sphere, Size E)
    3 - Sharee (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    5 - Enderra (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    8 - Kayla (Earth, Sphere, Size G)

    Outer Track
    3 - Delora (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    5 - Celste (Air/Fire, Sphere, Size H)
    7 - Aeron (Air, Sphere, Size G)
    9 - Aguara (Water, Sphere, Size F)
    13 - Orec (Air, Sphere, Size G)
    14 - Mikturu (Water, Sphere, Size F)
    15 - Dakordu (Water Ice, Sphere, Size E)
    19 - Nemesis (Earth/Ice, Sphere, Size E)
    38 - Shell

    Does that sound reasonable? Can always tighten the orbits if that makes it too big again.
    Well, it is a bit large, at about 15,200 million miles radius - that's bigger than Arthspace! The problem is that once you switch to the outer tracks, the gaps between orbits increases a lot.

    I've used Systemmaker to generate a couple of maps to illustrate; an Outer system map (shows all worlds on outer track), and a sidebar-style map.

    On the subject of Arthspace, for the Spelljammer version, I'd be tempted to put the spherewall at twice the orbit distance of the outermost actual planet, with the Outer Belt and Oort cloud between that planet and the spherewall. OR make Arthspace like Cad-Azarspace - the spherewall is only solid on the outside, while inside the sphere it marks where portal spells start functioning.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spelljammer Map of the Flow (WIP)-enderraspace_outer.png   Spelljammer Map of the Flow (WIP)-enderraspace_side.png  

  3. #23
      Nerik is offline
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    Ok, new update, links on first page, but here's a taster:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerik View Post
    Well, it is a bit large, at about 15,200 million miles radius - that's bigger than Arthspace! The problem is that once you switch to the outer tracks, the gaps between orbits increases a lot.

    I've used Systemmaker to generate a couple of maps to illustrate; an Outer system map (shows all worlds on outer track), and a sidebar-style map.

    On the subject of Arthspace, for the Spelljammer version, I'd be tempted to put the spherewall at twice the orbit distance of the outermost actual planet, with the Outer Belt and Oort cloud between that planet and the spherewall. OR make Arthspace like Cad-Azarspace - the spherewall is only solid on the outside, while inside the sphere it marks where portal spells start functioning.
    I haven't tackled spelljammer directly in a long, long time. Arth was not really intended for the Spelljammer cosmology; the Kuiper Belt / OOrt Cloud can just be outside the last orbit. Distance doesn't really matter; if you think it makes the sphere more useful in a "real" spelljammer campaign I am more than fine with defininng the spheres to be closer to make the systems less gargantuan.

    For Enderra, I just rolled up the orbits with the Spelljammer system creation rules. I do know I had worked out a detailed system 15 years ago, including some CGI planetary graphics I eventually did. All lost, so I am not too much worried about making the system "right"; Again the orbits can easily be changed. By the way, may I take those images and put them on my blog as part of the Enderra pages? If so, where would you like a linkback for credits?

  5. #25
      Nerik is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartmoss View Post
    I haven't tackled spelljammer directly in a long, long time. Arth was not really intended for the Spelljammer cosmology; the Kuiper Belt / OOrt Cloud can just be outside the last orbit. Distance doesn't really matter; if you think it makes the sphere more useful in a "real" spelljammer campaign I am more than fine with defininng the spheres to be closer to make the systems less gargantuan.
    Ok, I'll shrink it a bit. On this subject, I rather liked they way your cosmology used something like Niven's 'known Space' hyperspace for the phlogiston (and I think the alternative explaination in Ringworld's Children would be particularly apt for Spelljammer )

    Quote Originally Posted by bartmoss View Post
    For Enderra, I just rolled up the orbits with the Spelljammer system creation rules.
    Well, I think the large jump in orbit sizes when you switch from the inner to outer orbit tracks is an artifact of the system creation rules, I'll see what it looks like suitably tweaked.
    Quote Originally Posted by bartmoss View Post
    I do know I had worked out a detailed system 15 years ago, including some CGI planetary graphics I eventually did. All lost, so I am not too much worried about making the system "right"; Again the orbits can easily be changed. By the way, may I take those images and put them on my blog as part of the Enderra pages? If so, where would you like a linkback for credits?
    It's a pity you lost your original work. Feel free to use my images, I generated them using this system-making utility which automates (and, I think, expands) the Spelljammer System Creation rules, and can produce system charts and sidebar charts. When I get time I'll produce see what shrinking some of the orbits looks like.
    Last edited by Nerik; 07-13-2011 at 06:59 AM. Reason: Spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerik View Post
    Ok, I'll shrink it a bit. On this subject, I rather liked they way your cosmology used something like Niven's 'known Space' hyperspace for the phlogiston (and I think the alternative explaination in Ringworld's Children would be particularly apt for Spelljammer )
    Thanks -- And, actually, that's in the PDF...

    "It is known that any Spelljammer which approaches a star too closely in the Phlogiston disappears. It's unknown what happens to these ships, as nobody has ever witnessed it to happen. There are wild myths and rumors, the most prevalent of which postulates monsters living in the flow, which will eat Spelljammers that come too close."

    I wanted a more "natural" feel for the setting, and honestly, Phlogiston isn't that far off from Hyperspace to begin with. It made perfect sense to me to turn Hyperspace into a transitive plane like the Astral Plane. As an aside, the fact that Arth's universe is not too strange itself has the added bonus of integrating the Arth setting with the rest of my worlds. I have this meta design, which states that all my worlds are part of one multiverse, that is, they are all parallel worlds to each other. Travel between worlds is possible by magical and technological means. Only very few settings fully understand the theoretical sciences behind that. For example, my Terra setting knows how to travel to other worlds freely using technology (think GURPS Infinite Worlds). On the other hand, my Sci Fi setting's jump drives do "jump" the ship via the structure of the multiverse itself. The space ships use the same mechanism as the transport portals in the Terra setting - except the ships "bounce back" to the original universe instead of entering an alternate one.

    And yes this means that those space ships can, in theory, mis-jump and end up in a D&D-style fantasy world, or into a universe where Nazis reign over Earth, etc.

    Doubt I'd want a Spelljammer to cross over into a non-fantasy setting, but if I wanted to, I could without violating the rules of my universe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nerik View Post
    Well, I think the large jump in orbit sizes when you switch from the inner to outer orbit tracks is an artifact of the system creation rules, I'll see what it looks like suitably tweaked.
    It's an artifact of the designers' observation that planets tend to be be separated more from each other the furhter away you are from from the star. There are plenty of alternative rules to use, pick any sci-fi RPG. I picked the original SJ rules because I figured that's what you'd like these systems to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerik View Post
    It's a pity you lost your original work. Feel free to use my images, I generated them using this system-making utility which automates (and, I think, expands) the Spelljammer System Creation rules, and can produce system charts and sidebar charts. When I get time I'll produce see what shrinking some of the orbits looks like.
    Thanks for the URL, and the permission! And yes, losing work is always painful. Won't happen to me anymore; all my files are not only on a raid 1 (mirrored), I also back them up to an off-site server.

    - Nils

  7. #27
      Nerik is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartmoss View Post
    Okay, this is what I came up with:
    Inner Tracks:
    2 - Goras (Earth, Sphere, Size E)
    3 - Sharee (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    5 - Enderra (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    8 - Kayla (Earth, Sphere, Size G)

    Outer Track
    3 - Delora (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    5 - Celste (Air/Fire, Sphere, Size H)
    7 - Aeron (Air, Sphere, Size G)
    9 - Aguara (Water, Sphere, Size F)
    13 - Orec (Air, Sphere, Size G)
    14 - Mikturu (Water, Sphere, Size F)
    15 - Dakordu (Water Ice, Sphere, Size E)
    19 - Nemesis (Earth/Ice, Sphere, Size E)
    38 - Shell

    Does that sound reasonable? Can always tighten the orbits if that makes it too big again.
    Revised orbits (shrinking it slightly) (Changes in Bold)
    Inner Tracks:
    2 - Goras (Earth, Sphere, Size E)
    3 - Sharee (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    5 - Enderra (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    8 - Kayla (Earth, Sphere, Size G)

    Outer Track
    1 - Delora (Earth, Sphere, Size F)
    3 - Celste (Air/Fire, Sphere, Size H)
    5 - Aeron (Air, Sphere, Size G)
    7 - Aguara (Water, Sphere, Size F)
    9 - Orec (Air, Sphere, Size G)
    10 - Mikturu (Water, Sphere, Size F)
    11 - Dakordu (Water Ice, Sphere, Size E)
    14 - Nemesis (Earth/Ice, Sphere, Size E)
    28 - Shell

    Fell free to use the attached, updated, sphere diagrams.

    Spelljammer Map of the Flow (WIP)-enderraspace.pngSpelljammer Map of the Flow (WIP)-enderraspace_inner.pngSpelljammer Map of the Flow (WIP)-enderraspace_outer.pngSpelljammer Map of the Flow (WIP)-enderraspace_side.png

    I've also shrunk Arthspace a bit, and moved Enderra closer to Arth (see next map update)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerik View Post
    Ok, I'm not sure if this is the right place, but here goes...

    Sometime ago I produced this map of the flow, I've recently started work on updating it, with the intention of being as close to the original sources as I can get, while adding as many fan-created spheres as possible.
    Here are my current versions (as of 09/07/2011):
    This is an awesome project.

    It is a little hard to locate some of the spheres. There is a lot of data here and with you depicting relative sphere sizes, some of them look pretty small.

    Do you think it would be possible to replace your "black - white - black -white" border with something that could perhaps be used to provide readers with a simple co-ordinate system? If you had something like letters across the top and bottom and numbers down the sides, perhaps there could be a separate alphabetical key for the map that lists spheres in the style "Krynnspace - N18".

    You are abbreviating a lot of the sphere names to get them to fit onto the map and a separate key might also allow space for the full names.

    Quote Originally Posted by bartmoss View Post
    Awesome, I love spelljammer, I can't say how "accurate" this map is but it sure looks like the best SJ universe map I have seen yet.
    I would agree with that.

    As for accuracy, there is a canon link between Krynnspace and Realmspace in the Adventures in Space boxed set. That needs to be added to "complete" the third line of the "Radiant Triangle". (I've recently been told that the "Radiant Triangle" is a fanon name, but I would love to discover a canon reference that proves this wrong.

    Most of the other spheres in the Spelljammer campaign setting are poorly linked. Some adventure modules start off in "whatever sphere you are in" and that doesn't give you much help. Others provide a few links. I would say that, so long as the canon links are there, it doesn't matter what else Nerik does.

    I don't recall the Astromundi Cluster boxed set having any mention of links to other spheres, but the Hotel California effect of the sphere is a bit of problem for long distance travel. The isolated cultures (not even speaking common, but using Neogi as a trade language) do not really seem to fit in with it being so closely tied to the Radiant Triangle and several other spheres. I quite like the way that you have isolated Solarispace (making Refuge the only way in and out).

    And I think that the spot where you have put Clusterspace is so logically connected to the heart of the "Known Spheres" that it might be a great location to put Bralspace/Spiralspace. With the Rock of Bral, joining Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace in the boxed set and your Clusterspace location joining to all three spheres, it would allow for Paul Westermeyer's Bralspace research and design to be employed in a way that is not too far removed from the original AD&D Adventures in Space boxed set.

    In the unlikely event that Spelljammer comes back into print a 4e SJ (or 5e SJ) is likely to be a total reboot. So if canon 4e or canon 5e says this is wrong, I don't think I'd go with the canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by bartmoss View Post
    And I have heard of the Piazza, mainly because Big Mac was asking spelljammer stuff here a long time ago, but I doubt I should start to follow yet another forum.
    He gets about that guy!

    Quote Originally Posted by bartmoss View Post
    BTW - I did sign up to the Piazza after all.


    I figure that The Piazza can deal with all the nerd-level details of Spelljammer and the world-building, sphere-building and multiverse-building aspects can be discussed at a technical level over here. Someone who likes another space game (like Dragonlance or Babylon 5) might get something useful from the technical aspects of mapping, but would probably be bored by the SJ canon. A pair of threads could be the best solution for keeping the more interesting stuff on both forums (without filling it with the less interesting stuff).

    Quote Originally Posted by bartmoss View Post
    Oh but of course! I post my stuff on the 'net so others may enjoy it (hopefully).
    Thanks Bartmoss.

    I think that Spelljammer is such a "big concept" that it is really only possible to create a SJ multiverse (within a reasonable timescale) if fans co-operate and share their work. Not everyone is willing to share their own work with other projects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerik View Post
    Further update - shrunk Vodoni empire region, added travel times to Vodoni Empire, enlarged Radiant Triangle region, moved Scro conquests further out, added Chimpman's Mystaran cluster.
    SVG version
    PDF version
    Could travel times be something that was handled in a separate key? You could then have something along the lines of:
    Krynnspace - N1 Connects to:
    * Chatspace* x days
    * Clusterspace x days
    * Greyspace (inbound only)
    * Heartspace x days
    * Pathspace (intermittent) x days

    * = I can't actually read that name on the map, as it is slightly too small for me to make out.

    If you did something like that, you could focus on showing the locations of the spheres and the rivers connecting them together. The other stuff could be a separate project. A separate key might also help others to quickly check if their fanon sphere has been taken into your project as well as be a second way for people to double-check that your flow rivers do not conflict with canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by bartmoss View Post
    I haven't tackled spelljammer directly in a long, long time. Arth was not really intended for the Spelljammer cosmology; the Kuiper Belt / OOrt Cloud can just be outside the last orbit. Distance doesn't really matter; if you think it makes the sphere more useful in a "real" spelljammer campaign I am more than fine with defininng the spheres to be closer to make the systems less gargantuan.

    For Enderra, I just rolled up the orbits with the Spelljammer system creation rules. I do know I had worked out a detailed system 15 years ago, including some CGI planetary graphics I eventually did. All lost, so I am not too much worried about making the system "right"; Again the orbits can easily be changed. By the way, may I take those images and put them on my blog as part of the Enderra pages? If so, where would you like a linkback for credits?
    Kupier belt and oort cloud mechanics are something that badly need to be "Spelljammerised" by the fan community. The "why in game terms" aspect is probably something best handled over at The Piazza, but the mechanics part would all be about sorting out the "double diameter" rule (and that rule got bent by SJR6 Greyspace).

    I think that slavishly following the double diameter rule (which I interpret as an "in character theory" from many sages) can make spheres too big. In that case, it might be useful to "reassign" the outer world of a fanon sphere as an "additional astronomical" and recalculate the diameter from the next one in.

    There are some people in the SJ community who would like to reduce the size of canon spheres in this way, but I think that a kupier belt and oort cloud could make the area of a sphere beyond the outer planet into something interesting enough to not want to shrink it.

    If a kupier belt (in SJ terms) is rogue asteroids (some of which could be uncharted) then a ship can have many possible encounters between the last world and the shell. If an oort cloud (probably inhabited by oortlings) is the outer orbit of the sphere's commets, that could also give a ship some more things to encounter. At that range a comet could be moving slowly enough for a spelljamming ship to approach (and maybe land).

    For mapping purposes, it might be worth splitting the distance between the outer planet (or whatever you are going to define as the outer planet) into two regions and make the inner one an area for random "kupier asteroids" and the outer one an area for comets and clouds of material that form into comets.
    David "Big Mac" Shepheard
    New to cartography and seeking advice - eventual goal to make a large number of maps for the many worlds of the Spelljammer Campaign Setting

  9. #29
      Nerik is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    This is an awesome project.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    It is a little hard to locate some of the spheres. There is a lot of data here and with you depicting relative sphere sizes, some of them look pretty small.

    Do you think it would be possible to replace your "black - white - black -white" border with something that could perhaps be used to provide readers with a simple co-ordinate system? If you had something like letters across the top and bottom and numbers down the sides, perhaps there could be a separate alphabetical key for the map that lists spheres in the style "Krynnspace - N18".
    Now that's an excellent idea, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    You are abbreviating a lot of the sphere names to get them to fit onto the map and a separate key might also allow space for the full names.
    Actually, IIRC, the only abbreviation I'm using is to remove the "-space" or "-sphere" suffices from the sphere names.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    As for accuracy, there is a canon link between Krynnspace and Realmspace in the Adventures in Space boxed set. That needs to be added to "complete" the third line of the "Radiant Triangle".
    Err... actually the Concordance of Arcane Space explicitly states that there is not a link (see the sidebar on page 86 & 88 ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    (I've recently been told that the "Radiant Triangle" is a fanon name, but I would love to discover a canon reference that proves this wrong.
    I also do not know where 'Radiant Triangle' comes from, or the occasional references to the 'Trulian Ring' either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    Most of the other spheres in the Spelljammer campaign setting are poorly linked. Some adventure modules start off in "whatever sphere you are in" and that doesn't give you much help. Others provide a few links. I would say that, so long as the canon links are there, it doesn't matter what else Nerik does.

    I don't recall the Astromundi Cluster boxed set having any mention of links to other spheres, but the Hotel California effect of the sphere is a bit of problem for long distance travel. The isolated cultures (not even speaking common, but using Neogi as a trade language) do not really seem to fit in with it being so closely tied to the Radiant Triangle and several other spheres. I quite like the way that you have isolated Solarispace (making Refuge the only way in and out).

    And I think that the spot where you have put Clusterspace is so logically connected to the heart of the "Known Spheres" that it might be a great location to put Bralspace/Spiralspace. With the Rock of Bral, joining Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace in the boxed set and your Clusterspace location joining to all three spheres, it would allow for Paul Westermeyer's Bralspace research and design to be employed in a way that is not too far removed from the original AD&D Adventures in Space boxed set.
    Actually, the Astromundi Cluster boxed set contained one of the three flow maps ever officially produced by TSR. It shows Clusterspace, Realmspace, Greyspace, Krynnspace and the four spheres from 'Crystal Spheres' in the same arrangement I've used. When I first read the description of Clusterspace I expected it to be rather more distant, but then I found the map. Were I to be running my own campaign, I'd probably move it, it kinda gets in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    In the unlikely event that Spelljammer comes back into print a 4e SJ (or 5e SJ) is likely to be a total reboot. So if canon 4e or canon 5e says this is wrong, I don't think I'd go with the canon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    Could travel times be something that was handled in a separate key? You could then have something along the lines of:
    Krynnspace - N1 Connects to:
    * Chatspace* x days Charspace
    * Clusterspace x days
    * Greyspace (inbound only) Actually outbound as well, but slower
    * Heartspace x days
    * Pathspace (intermittent) x days

    * = I can't actually read that name on the map, as it is slightly too small for me to make out.
    Are you looking at the PDF version? you should be able to zoom in for a closer look.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    If you did something like that, you could focus on showing the locations of the spheres and the rivers connecting them together. The other stuff could be a separate project. A separate key might also help others to quickly check if their fanon sphere has been taken into your project as well as be a second way for people to double-check that your flow rivers do not conflict with canon.
    That's an idea, but I'll keep the travel times on the map for the time being (that way, they are recorded somewhere). I think what might be a nice fan project would be a sort of Spelljamming 'Rutter', which I think is a more detailed version of what you are proposing. A 'Spelljammer Navigator's Guide' would be a nice idea, but I don't have the time ATM. (Red-Eyes space is consuming a lot of free time!)
    Last edited by Nerik; 07-16-2011 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Darn smilies!

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    Well, I'm back, sorry for the lack of updates, I was busy at work, then busy looking for work, then busy at work again.

    I've updated the map (after 10 months!) with some additional spheres and other details, see the first post for details.

    Spelljammer Map of the Flow (WIP)-phlogiston_14-05-12.jpg
    Last edited by Nerik; 05-14-2012 at 02:51 PM.

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