Ongus, Capital of Albion

[Dreadnought]

Hi,

I'm new around here. I'm seeking comments, suggestions, and criticisms for a fairly large scale city map I've been working on. The core of it is finished, but I'm interested in any ideas on what I can do to improve it further.

It's for a medieval fantasy type roleplaying game. The gameworld is deliberately full of analogues of our own world - kingdoms obviously inspired by England, France, etc - but not so closely based on them that you have to duplicate anything. This city is Ongus, which is the capital of Albion, which is the analogue of England - so in designing Ongus I've tried to draw some inspiration from medieval London - but I'm not actually bound to stick too closely to that.

The map has been created using Profantasy's Campaign Cartographer 3 and City Designer 3, using public domain fills that in some cases, I've modified. The following two images are a small overview of the entire city, and a detail of one small section of it:





The whole map is far too large to reasonably attach here, so it's been hosted on my own website. If you click on this link, the entire file will open for you. (15.8MB gif, about 8000 x 4590 pixels)

[Wingshaw]

Hi Dreadnought.

I'm not wildly keen on Profantasy products, partially because I think the results tend to look a bit dodgy, stylistically. This is just my personal opinion, but I think you would be able to do a much better job if you adopted some other techniques: eg. photoshop/GIMP (free), or just pen and paper. Even if you aren't good at drawing, I think a pen and paper picture would be worthwhile. The reason: this image, at the moment, looks very busy and confused. It is hard to separate the streets from the general background texture, and to identify the buildings. Hopefully, it also wouldn't take very long. I can see you have put a lot of time into this, so I understand that this might not be very welcome advice.

I would be happy to give you a few tips on urban layout (I studied urban planning and history, and specialised in medieval London), but it would be good if you could provide a more readable map first, and in a more convenient filesize.

THW

[Dreadnought]

Thank you for the comments - and the thought behind it.

Hi Dreadnought.

I'm not wildly keen on Profantasy products, partially because I think the results tend to look a bit dodgy, stylistically. This is just my personal opinion, but I think you would be able to do a much better job if you adopted some other techniques: eg. photoshop/GIMP (free), or just pen and paper. Even if you aren't good at drawing, I think a pen and paper picture would be worthwhile.

My initial ideas are often sketched out with a pencil and paper but those sketches really don't look good - they just let me plan where I want to put things. And when everything is finally placed I do use a graphics program to make modifications - but that's at a later stage than I am currently at. At this stage, I'm still getting everything in the right place - I'm also using the map in a game in progress, and in a 'novel' I am writing, so I need something 'good enough' that I can use, but this isn't the final version.

Unfortunately, I think I know my limitations. I've been drawing maps for my games for about thirty years and nothing I've produced in any other way comes close to looking as good as the results I get from using CC3 and it's add ons, and some post work at the end. Maybe a lot of people can produce better maps through other methods. I don't think I can.

The reason: this image, at the moment, looks very busy and confused. It is hard to separate the streets from the general background texture, and to identify the buildings. Hopefully, it also wouldn't take very long. I can see you have put a lot of time into this, so I understand that this might not be very welcome advice.

I'm looking at my map - and at the size it is designed to be viewed at and printed at (which is also the large 8000x4500 pixel or so image I have included a link to in the original message), I'm not really sure I see the problems you're describing. At that resolution, the streets look reasonably well delineated to me. In the small images I've included inline in the message, things seem cramped, but those really don't show the map in the way it's meant to be seen (I wasn't expecting the detail image to display as small as it does either). Are the problems you are seeing ones that you see in the big file? If that's the case, I definitely need to figure out how to fix that.

Spending more time really doesn't worry me if it's going to lead to better results in the long run.

I would be happy to give you a few tips on urban layout (I studied urban planning and history, and specialised in medieval London), but it would be good if you could provide a more readable map first, and in a more convenient filesize.

THW

Thanks - I will see what I can do. I do have a version that shows the street layout of the section within the walls, without the clutter of buildings, that would probably be a lot clearer in terms of overall layout... I'll work on putting that up.

[Dreadnought]

This image just shows the street layout of the section of the city within the walls (the city proper, in fact - areas outside the walls - and indeed a couple of small areas inside them - aren't considered to be officially parts of the city.

[Wingshaw]

That street map is exactly what I was hoping for. It is so much clearer.

I'm looking at my map - and at the size it is designed to be viewed at and printed at (which is also the large 8000x4500 pixel or so image I have included a link to in the original message), I'm not really sure I see the problems you're describing. At that resolution, the streets look reasonably well delineated to me. In the small images I've included inline in the message, things seem cramped, but those really don't show the map in the way it's meant to be seen (I wasn't expecting the detail image to display as small as it does either). Are the problems you are seeing ones that you see in the big file? If that's the case, I definitely need to figure out how to fix that.

I think the issue that I am talking about, with your large-scale map, is that, when zoomed out, it becomes hard to decipher, and, when zoomed in, it is so large that you don't get a full idea of the city. That said, if this is meant to be printed, those criticisms may not apply.

You say this is almost finished. In that case, I'll keep my comments to reasonably simple things that probably won't involve immense amounts of work or change:
--text: the bright red labels and fairly modern-looking font make it look rather cartoonish. Perhaps try a more slender, italic-like font, with more subtle colouring (near-black or near-white are often good choices). Also, you have three different text styles: the title, the scale bar, and the place names. I think you should have only one.

--topography: I think a more realistic approach would be to make the river (and the lesser river) run between hills, rather than over them.

--street names I: the street names are one of the best things about this map. You have clearly put a lot of time into them, and I can detect London's influence on them. However, 'first- second-, third-, fourth-, fifth-streets' does not seem very medieval: that is an American convention from a much later period (although I recognise you might have an in-world reason for naming those streets that way, in which case ignore my criticism).

--street names II: the other thing with the street names is, some of them are really weird (which is not a bad thing). Eg. Circumstance Street; Flowers-are-Fading Road; Breakingwind Road. Now, I like weird placenames, but the issue I have is that they seem a bit too consistent in their formation. It's hard to explain, but, typically, a city's streetnames are quite varied: London has Tower Street (goes to the Tower); Fleet Street (because it runs alongside the old Fleet River); Old Kent Road (because it was the road taken to reach Kent); Hatton Gardens (named after its aristocratic lord); St Martin's Le Grand (named after a landmark feature, a church). So you see, streets can be named after a whole variety of things, and through names you can give different areas their character.

--textures/colours: sorry, I'm going to be blunt with the textures, I don't think they look good. I don't know what options Profantasy gives for textures, but I think the ones you have used don't work. The website CGTextures is a great source of textures, and one I highly recommend. You have to register, but it is free and you can then download thousands of excellent textures. You also have a lot of different colours in this map. I think it would look better if you simplify the colour palette: frankly, I would have five or six, and try to keep contrast low:
----one for the grass/landscape;
----one for the roads;
----one for the buildings;
----two for special buildings;
----one for the river.
That would make the map look more consistent and homogeneous. I would also, as part of this, get rid of the pale grey texture completely. I really don't know what it is meant to represent, and it has a very strong visual presence.

--elements: again, I don't know much about Profantasy, but I think the use of very different elements detracts from this map. I am guessing you used different elements to reflect different things (eg social class), but I think you would be better off using the same elements consistently, and then finding some other way to depict those things.

--water: a different texture for the water would be good, but also some work on the shoreline. That could simply be the inclusion of some ripples, or a slightly darker outline. The place where the small river joins the big one could also be made rounder and more natural-looking.

--layout: I have not made any comments about the street layout, because I imagine that would involve a lot of work on your part. Simple things, though, include:
----more/expanded docks
----farms/fields/forests around the town
----lanes and major roads out of town and off the map

In summary, my main suggestion is: make it more consistent.

Hope that is helpful, and not too harsh.

THW

[Dreadnought]

Thank you so much for all your comments and advice.

You say this is almost finished. In that case, I'll keep my comments to reasonably simple things that probably won't involve immense amounts of work or change:

--text: the bright red labels and fairly modern-looking font make it look rather cartoonish. Perhaps try a more slender, italic-like font, with more subtle colouring (near-black or near-white are often good choices). Also, you have three different text styles: the title, the scale bar, and the place names. I think you should have only one.

I will look into that - if anybody would care to suggest particular font names it could help, but I will look for fonts that match what you describe. I won't be changing the title font as that has been chosen specifically because it's an 'official' font associated with the game world/rpg in which city features (and I don't think it would work for the other purposes) but I can certainly get a consistency between street names and the scale bar.

--topography: I think a more realistic approach would be to make the river (and the lesser river) run between hills, rather than over them.

Yes - that definitely needs fixing - I hadn't really noticed what I'd done there, but it's pretty obvious once mentioned.

--street names I: the street names are one of the best things about this map. You have clearly put a lot of time into them, and I can detect London's influence on them. However, 'first- second-, third-, fourth-, fifth-streets' does not seem very medieval: that is an American convention from a much later period (although I recognise you might have an in-world reason for naming those streets that way, in which case ignore my criticism).

Yes, that has been done for a specific reason - that particular section of the city is a military fortification with its origins back to the world's equivalent of the Roman Empire (which originally founded the city). It's now generally almost empty except for maintenance except for brief periods when the King raises an army to put into the city. Street names in that section refer to the days of the legions, except for a few new streets which are the numbered ones, and the army leaders deliberately went for a totally utilitarian approach in naming them. I might see if I can think of something less American than the numbers though.

--street names II: the other thing with the street names is, some of them are really weird (which is not a bad thing). Eg. Circumstance Street; Flowers-are-Fading Road; Breakingwind Road. Now, I like weird placenames, but the issue I have is that they seem a bit too consistent in their formation. It's hard to explain, but, typically, a city's streetnames are quite varied: London has Tower Street (goes to the Tower); Fleet Street (because it runs alongside the old Fleet River); Old Kent Road (because it was the road taken to reach Kent); Hatton Gardens (named after its aristocratic lord); St Martin's Le Grand (named after a landmark feature, a church). So you see, streets can be named after a whole variety of things, and through names you can give different areas their character.

I think I get it - it's not so much the names of the streets but the labels by which they are described after the individual names - I've used 'road' and 'street' an awful lot, pretty much as defaults. I look at that and see what I can do about that.

--textures/colours: sorry, I'm going to be blunt with the textures, I don't think they look good. I don't know what options Profantasy gives for textures, but I think the ones you have used don't work. The website CGTextures is a great source of textures, and one I highly recommend. You have to register, but it is free and you can then download thousands of excellent textures.

Thanks - this is exactly what I need people to say, and to read. I'm not good on aesthetic choices, and I can't actually use the Profantasy textures (even though my own final map won't be pure CC3, I need a map I can distribute in that FCW format for reasons related to shared campaigns and the expectations of other people who use the CC3 viewer and I can't distribute Profantasy textures freely. The textures I'm using are ones I can use, but because I had to choose them myself, the aesthetics may be very questionable).

You also have a lot of different colours in this map. I think it would look better if you simplify the colour palette: frankly, I would have five or six, and try to keep contrast low:
----one for the grass/landscape;
----one for the roads;
----one for the buildings;
----two for special buildings;
----one for the river.
That would make the map look more consistent and homogeneous. I would also, as part of this, get rid of the pale grey texture completely. I really don't know what it is meant to represent, and it has a very strong visual presence.

The pale grey primarily represents that most of the city is covered with a gravel of that colour.

I'll definitely look at reducing the colours, but part of what I was trying to show was changes in elevation - and I'd rather not lose that if I can work out a way around it.

--elements: again, I don't know much about Profantasy, but I think the use of very different elements detracts from this map. I am guessing you used different elements to reflect different things (eg social class), but I think you would be better off using the same elements consistently, and then finding some other way to depict those things.

That's fairly easy to fix - and would need to be done anyway at the post-phase, so I will look at how best to do this.

--water: a different texture for the water would be good, but also some work on the shoreline. That could simply be the inclusion of some ripples, or a slightly darker outline. The place where the small river joins the big one could also be made rounder and more natural-looking.

Again, that's a fairly easy fix.

--layout: I have not made any comments about the street layout, because I imagine that would involve a lot of work on your part. Simple things, though, include:
----more/expanded docks

There's a large area of docks - pretty much a small town - about two miles south of the area depicted on this map. There used to be more extensive docks in the city, but they were destroyed (and largely the cause of) a significant fire (associated with riots) about twenty years ago - the slum area west of Burning Backside (near The Flush) was their former site. The rebuilding of docks within the city walls has been discouraged since then, except for a small river dock.

----farms/fields/forests around the town

I will definitely add these - have to work out how to depict them.

----lanes and major roads out of town and off the map

The city itself only has the three gates (a matter of 'canon' for the game world) but I can certainly look at more diverging roads once the city walls have been left behind.

In summary, my main suggestion is: make it more consistent.

Hope that is helpful, and not too harsh.

Not at all - it's exactly what I need.

This is my first large scale attempt at mapping a city (a smaller effort is likely to be included in a published scenario in the near future, but that was much simpler) and I want to get it right. That means I need to know what people see as being wrong with it and where I can make improvements. Thank you very much for your time.