WIP - Avearia - Looking for feedback

[kacey]

I hesitate to post this here as I cringe at the thought of any one seeing it at this stage, but I can't seem to move forward so am desperately looking for feedback, and suggestions.

I'm new to fantasy cartography. I dabbled into it a few years back without success, and gave up quickly. I recently stumbled across an old map I'd started about 2 years ago, and decided to take another stab at it.

It started out as a hand drawn map in my sketchbook which I ruined by trying to add ink. It originally had mountains which I failed at miserably.

I would like to know what you guys think of my progress so far, and what I might do to improve it.

I scribbled in the patch of mountains, and ridge line last night with the intention of redoing them. The line work, and little bit of shading is sloppy. I just wanted to get the idea across so you guys could get a feel for where I'm going with it before I move on. I'd love to know if it's worth the time, and effort to continue in this style. I want to do the line work for all the mountains on the entire map before I start shading them in, I think this is where I'd like to go next.

I was also wondering what you guys think about the thickness of the lines on the mountains, and outline of the coast. I was wondering if the lines should be thinner.

And to my biggest gripe of the whole thing, the river openings. Originally it was my attempt at tapering them, but then it just ended up looking like giant cracks in the land with weird lines attached. there used to be mountains, so if it looks like theirs rivers coming from nowhere...it's because there is...I just don't quite know how to fix them.

I've been thinking of the border as kind of a place holder for now. I got those corner embellishments from deviant art some years ago, and don't plan on keeping them. I also used a texture overlay from there as well which is a much smaller resolution then my current file size, which is bugging me because I find it's a little fuzzy looking up close, but I like the way it effected the colours so I hesitate to remove it. If anyone has any ideas on how to resolve this it would be greatly appreciated.

I'm rambling on now, so I'll stop...But I would love to know you're thoughts, opinions, and any ideas on how to improve it. And to anyone who actually read all that...Thank you, I really would appreciate the help, because I feel really stuck right now.

[arsheesh]

Hello Kacey. I think this is a promising start. Here are my own thoughts on some of the questions you have asked:

I'd love to know if it's worth the time, and effort to continue in this style. I want to do the line work for all the mountains on the entire map before I start shading them in, I think this is where I'd like to go next.

Well the short answer is yes. To begin with, when you are new to a discipline (in this case fantasy map-making) much of what you will do will feel unfamiliar and awkward. This is natural. The more you practice the more your skill will increase and the more confident you will become in the discipline.

Not all artistic pieces will turn out to be masterpieces. Nor indeed should one expect them to be. In the beginning stages of learning a new craft one should be striving simply to become competent in the fundamentals of the discipline. For fantasy map making this will include, among other things, learning some of the basics about geography (such as how continents work, where mountains typically form, the rules surrounding how water flows etc), and learning some basic techniques of illustration (you can find discussions on both of these things here in the Tutorials section). One should not expect one's first attempt at a craft to be amazing. The main thing is that through the process of creating the map (and doing a bit of research) you will become more familiar with geography and map-making techniques.

So yes, you should definitely continue to work on this piece.

I was also wondering what you guys think about the thickness of the lines on the mountains, and outline of the coast. I was wondering if the lines should be thinner.

The coastline could be a tad thinner. Mountain look fine to me, but it's your call.

And to my biggest gripe of the whole thing, the river openings. Originally it was my attempt at tapering them, but then it just ended up looking like giant cracks in the land with weird lines attached. there used to be mountains, so if it looks like theirs rivers coming from nowhere...it's because there is...I just don't quite know how to fix them.

Are you working with a tablet or a mouse? If you are working with a tablet, your stylus should allow you to control the width of the lines you draw based upon the pressure you apply. So tapering rivers is just a matter of applying different pressure levels at the beginning and end of your rivers.

If you are working with a mouse a different solution would be to manually erase the ends of the rivers so that they form more of a narrow point (which is what I did in this map years ago before I had a tablet and had to make do with a mouse).

You can also vary the with of the river at various places as well to allow for lakes.

I've been thinking of the border as kind of a place holder for now. I got those corner embellishments from deviant art some years ago, and don't plan on keeping them. I also used a texture overlay from there as well which is a much smaller resolution then my current file size, which is bugging me because I find it's a little fuzzy looking up close, but I like the way it effected the colours so I hesitate to remove it. If anyone has any ideas on how to resolve this it would be greatly appreciated.

As to the texture overlay, is that overlaying the border or is it comprising the parchment? I did notice that the parchment looks slightly blurry. There are loads of free parchment textures on the web that might work for this piece, or you could create your own (in fact, if you search the Tutorials thread you'll find a few tutorials here on how to make your own parchment textures).

Keep at it, you are off to a great start.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

[Deadshade]

I find that it looks quite well - like Arsheesh said, don't expect a masterpiece because you won't do one. But what you will do is to learn.
I agree with your self analysis of the rivers - they indeed look like giant cracks or fjords. There is a tutorial for tapering rivers in the tutorial section. Or you do with a tablet what Arsheesh said - it's extremely easy. Or you may start with a 1 pixel line and then double it after a length , then triple it etc. This is also easy by using the path tool and works fine with Fractal Terrai f.ex.

I find indeed what you call mountains quite inappropriate. They look like scattered hills and not mountain ranges. Mountains are certainly the hardest part of a map especially if you handdraw them and don't just randomly stamp some mountain icons. The same is btw true for forests.
For this reason you shouldn't Attack the hardest part of a map (mountain ranges) alone hoping to discover magically some 100% working trick.
Here more than in any other case, take your time and read a few tutorials about handrawing mountain ranges (I did one too).

Now I find your border excellent - sober, elegant and fitting. The only problem is that it is too fuzzy but to heal that , it is only a matter of technique not creativity. I'd advice to keep the border but remove the fuzziness.
The choice of a parchment background is a standard - probably half of the maps done here use parchments and there is a megaton of such backgrounds on the net. I find yours quite nice.

[Diamond]

Fantastic start - you have ABSOLUTELY nothing to be ashamed of here.

I scribbled in the patch of mountains, and ridge line last night with the intention of redoing them. The line work, and little bit of shading is sloppy. I just wanted to get the idea across so you guys could get a feel for where I'm going with it before I move on. I'd love to know if it's worth the time, and effort to continue in this style. I want to do the line work for all the mountains on the entire map before I start shading them in, I think this is where I'd like to go next.

I was also wondering what you guys think about the thickness of the lines on the mountains, and outline of the coast. I was wondering if the lines should be thinner.

I like that mountain style and I'd say continue with it. As far as doing all the line work first before shading - that's the way I personally do it. I find it easier to keep a uniformity of color and appearance if I do all the shading at once rather than piecemeal. For line thickness, I'd say leave the mountains alone, but thin out the coastline a bit.

And to my biggest gripe of the whole thing, the river openings. Originally it was my attempt at tapering them, but then it just ended up looking like giant cracks in the land with weird lines attached. there used to be mountains, so if it looks like theirs rivers coming from nowhere...it's because there is...I just don't quite know how to fix them.

You could always just say those four areas are big fjords, in which case it works fine. Just for the rest of your rivers, make the thin line of the river proper hit the coast, and to show increasing river width, just use a progressively wider brush, or draw it thicker the closer to the coast it gets. (See attached sample below)

I've been thinking of the border as kind of a place holder for now. I got those corner embellishments from deviant art some years ago, and don't plan on keeping them. I also used a texture overlay from there as well which is a much smaller resolution then my current file size, which is bugging me because I find it's a little fuzzy looking up close, but I like the way it effected the colours so I hesitate to remove it. If anyone has any ideas on how to resolve this it would be greatly appreciated.

I kind of like that border; if anything, give it some more embellishment and I think it'll look really nice. For the texture, try this: find a bigger one that shows more detail of the actual texture (like cracks, tears, etc, whatever you're looking for) but that's of a lighter color, much lighter if you can find one. Then add your existing texture as a layer on top of that and experiment with the layer settings - multiply, overlay, hard light, etc - this may give you a parchment that has more detail but still retains the colors of the original parchment. Or it may not. But no harm in experimenting.

One thing I actively dislike on your map is that font - it is unreadable.

[Ilanthar]

Very good start indeed. I like the general composition and colors. The borders is fitting the rest naturally. I completely agree with Diamond about the font, and I would probably just tone down a little bit the light on your mountains/cliff.

[jshoer]

I would agree with the others - the best piece of advice I have for you is to push on the way you are doing it now, and see what comes out! Best case, you come out with a really nice map: several of the elements you have here works quite well together. Worst case, you get practice and learn things that you'd like to do better next time.

For the mountains, I might practice a bit at doing variations on what you have that are bigger and connect into more of a range. You can absolutely keep what you have as isolated hills, but they don't really indicate a major mountain range. Mostly the difference is going to be scale (making them larger), spacing (putting them closer together), and making sure that the ridges line up in a sensible way. There are lots of different styles around here to try for.

I think you're right about the rivers, but the solution shouldn't be too dramatic. Can you go back and pull the banks in a little as the rivers widen out? Just try tracing a new contour slightly inward of what you have.

[kacey]

thanx for all the responses, I was starting to think I wasn't going to get any feedback, and I'd have to go it alone. I really appreciate the great comments, and suggestions, it really helps and gives me allot of things to think about. I'm going to respond to each of them individually, but I just wanted to post a quick update first.

I have redone the outline on the coast completely because it was looking really pixilated, and was bugging me allot. The original file which was started in gimp a few years back was allot smaller at 2000 pixels across because it's what my computer could handle at the time, so when I brought it into PhotoShop, and upsized it to 5000 pixels across I got allot of fuzziness, and pixilation.

I also darkened the water because I wanted to do lighter lines around the coast, and they just weren't reading well on the other colour. I'm still going for a hand drawn look, so I left them kind of jagged, and free... I was wondering how you guys feel about them. Do you think they're ok, or should I be taking a different approach?

Lastly I tapered out my failed attempt at rivers, and have decided as some have suggested to keep them as fjords instead of trying to carve them back, I tried that, and I just didn't like it the same. I hope to somehow make them appear more raised, and jagged. Any suggestions on how to do that would be really helpful.

I'm intimidated at the thought of starting the mountains, but I feel I can't move forward on much until I nail them in. It might take some time, I'll have to do some practice ones first, and some testing to figure out how I should approach them.

[kacey]

Hello Kacey. I think this is a promising start. Here are my own thoughts on some of the questions you have asked:



Well the short answer is yes. To begin with, when you are new to a discipline (in this case fantasy map-making) much of what you will do will feel unfamiliar and awkward. This is natural. The more you practice the more your skill will increase and the more confident you will become in the discipline.

Not all artistic pieces will turn out to be masterpieces. Nor indeed should one expect them to be. In the beginning stages of learning a new craft one should be striving simply to become competent in the fundamentals of the discipline. For fantasy map making this will include, among other things, learning some of the basics about geography (such as how continents work, where mountains typically form, the rules surrounding how water flows etc), and learning some basic techniques of illustration (you can find discussions on both of these things here in the Tutorials section). One should not expect one's first attempt at a craft to be amazing. The main thing is that through the process of creating the map (and doing a bit of research) you will become more familiar with geography and map-making techniques.

So yes, you should definitely continue to work on this piece.



The coastline could be a tad thinner. Mountain look fine to me, but it's your call.



Are you working with a tablet or a mouse? If you are working with a tablet, your stylus should allow you to control the width of the lines you draw based upon the pressure you apply. So tapering rivers is just a matter of applying different pressure levels at the beginning and end of your rivers.

If you are working with a mouse a different solution would be to manually erase the ends of the rivers so that they form more of a narrow point (which is what I did in this map years ago before I had a tablet and had to make do with a mouse).

You can also vary the with of the river at various places as well to allow for lakes.



As to the texture overlay, is that overlaying the border or is it comprising the parchment? I did notice that the parchment looks slightly blurry. There are loads of free parchment textures on the web that might work for this piece, or you could create your own (in fact, if you search the Tutorials thread you'll find a few tutorials here on how to make your own parchment textures).

Keep at it, you are off to a great start.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

Thanx for the encouragement to move forward, it means allot to me coming from you as I've been admiring you're work for a few years now.

It really does feel awkward learning a new discipline. Since I gave up on cartography a few years back I've been focusing on learning to paint portraits, and landscapes so the techniques are quite a bit different, but a nice change of pace as what I'd been practicing for a while has recently grown stale.

I did redo the coastline, I did it completely by hand, and I believe it looks much cleaner now. I wonder what you think about the weight of the line now that I've changed it?

Right now I'm working on a surface pro 4, which I recently purchased, and love working on. The stylus has less pressure then the wacom tablet I have on my desktop, but it does the trick non the less, and the surface is holding up well for painting, it's not giving me any lag at all.

I have looked at the map you did with a mouse, it's impressive that you accomplished that, I can't even draw a straight line with one. I really like the way you made the coast line look somewhat raised, and wouldn't mind trying something similar if you don't mind my copying the idea.

[arsheesh]

My pleasure kacey. Rivers look much, much better now. The coastline looks great, especially now that you've added waves (nice touch that), and the line weight looks good to me.

For the coastlines in that map I linked to I took a lot of inspiration from some of Jonathon Roberts (aka Torstan's) work, so credit goes to him there.

Keep up the good work, you are off to a great start.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

[kacey]

I find that it looks quite well - like Arsheesh said, don't expect a masterpiece because you won't do one. But what you will do is to learn.
I agree with your self analysis of the rivers - they indeed look like giant cracks or fjords. There is a tutorial for tapering rivers in the tutorial section. Or you do with a tablet what Arsheesh said - it's extremely easy. Or you may start with a 1 pixel line and then double it after a length , then triple it etc. This is also easy by using the path tool and works fine with Fractal Terrai f.ex.

I find indeed what you call mountains quite inappropriate. They look like scattered hills and not mountain ranges. Mountains are certainly the hardest part of a map especially if you handdraw them and don't just randomly stamp some mountain icons. The same is btw true for forests.
For this reason you shouldn't Attack the hardest part of a map (mountain ranges) alone hoping to discover magically some 100% working trick.
Here more than in any other case, take your time and read a few tutorials about handrawing mountain ranges (I did one too).

Now I find your border excellent - sober, elegant and fitting. The only problem is that it is too fuzzy but to heal that , it is only a matter of technique not creativity. I'd advice to keep the border but remove the fuzziness.
The choice of a parchment background is a standard - probably half of the maps done here use parchments and there is a megaton of such backgrounds on the net. I find yours quite nice.

I like that you replied to my post in such a neutral fashion, neither here nor there. I really do appreciate an honest opinion, and I look forward to learning you're opinions as I move forward, thank you so much.

I decided to keep my failed rivers as fjords, do you think this is wise? or should I try to knock them back, and turn them into proper rivers? I wonder what you're opinion is on this matter.

As for the mountains I agree with you on the terminology, they do look more like scattered hills, so it's good that I only spent a few minutes on them. I plan on a major overhaul when it comes to mountains. I will be checking out more tutorials before I delve into it too deeply. I checked out you're tutorial, and it seems very informative. I'm also interested in reading you're tutorials on climate, and trees. I need all the help I can get.

I still have reservations about the border. I'm not quite sure how to remove the fuzziness, if you have any ideas on how I should go about this it would be greatly appreciated.