Thread: [WIP] Arcantis, the lake city

Originally Posted by Larb

Mechanical hammers have been known of and used since the ancient period. Same with sawmills.

Just to avoid misunderstandings, I'm not challenging your opinion. Do you know of anything that actually documents the existence of water-wheel-powered sawmills or hammer smithies in Europe before the 1600s? I've read a number of texts that claim that, but I've not yet found anything that actually substantiated their existence before 1600. Among other things, I'm interested in this issue because I find it difficult to believe that it really might have taken that long to implement this technology.

There's an old schematic of one here. Also wikipedia has two lists (one for ancient and one for medieval) of various watermills, including a list of old texts that include descriptions of them (so you can search for translated copies and verify them personally given the not wholly reliable nature of wikipedia =P). But it gives you a starting point to search for the mills mentioned on those lists on other sites and in books and such.

Most of the listed mills are grain mills but not all of them are.

Also there is a book called Wind, Water, Work, which goes into great detail about mills in the ancient and medieval period.

On a side note it is worth looking up Barbegal Mill. It is a very impressive piece of ancient engineering.

Beaoner looks to be a nice setup. It is amazing that no matter how inhospitable an area is some people are too stubborn to leave! I would like to do a stilt town one day perhaps on a smaller scale though. Continue on !

I must have missed where the technology level is equivalent to 1600s Europe. HMM. The funny thing about TECH is it is often times accidental and varies wildly by culture. As example the Chinese invented Gunpowder as early as the 9th century Why them and no-one else. First weapons created were bombs fireworks and flame throwers. Why in this days of extra-solar exploration and everyone's favorite ( smartphones) are there still earth cultures wearing loincloths and drinking cow blood. Don't they have the decency to evolve ?? Sorry for the rant !! I postulate with reasonable certainty that invention or non- invention of certain technologies through out history has altered immensely the current state of society. And as stated earlier with very unequal results. So to take this farther in a fantasy world even one not dis-similar to our own (no magic, elves etc) with the same time of existence , TECH would have advanced more quickly or slowly or perhaps in totally unimaginable ways. If Beaoner is patterning this world after 14th to 17th century Europe then the appropriate Technologies apply if not then it the same as comparing apples to oranges. It is all Fruit!



Beoaner Sorry for the highjack !!

It's true that the spread of technology is down to lots of different circumstances and in a constructed world you get freedom to decide what exists and and what doesn't. Mills were just brought up in the thread regarding the city, and I was also replying to Mark regarding what I've read.

Also the late medieval period is often the assumed sort of technology level of many fantasy worlds until someone says otherwise.

Sorry I didn't answered anything sooner, I was unable to login this Saturday.

But Wow! That is a lot of information, more than I expected to get when I asked for help actually. I've to thank you all: Counlin, Bogie, Mark Oliva, Larb and lostatsea.
For what I've understood, I'll make two or three sawmills next to the water, so that they use a watermill to cut and prepare all the wood needed, even though the city is on a lake, the water flows fast enough to have watermills I guess, not to mention that the city location is near one of the lake's tributary river. As for the smith I'm not sure wheter I'm going to replace it to have a watermill too, or if I'll let it where it is now (the last option is much more likely to happen). I was thinking about Windmill maybe, since it is a big lake it would always have some breeze or air going from land to water (by night), and from water to land (by day) if I'm not mistaken.

Also, the technology I'm assuming is something like a LotR/GoT, technology, which I think can be compared to a late medieval period like Larb said. BTW, thanks once again for the amazing links, Larb. And Mark Oliva for the photos.

On a side note it is worth looking up Barbegal Mill. It is a very impressive piece of ancient engineering.

Indeed a very impressive work of engineering.

Beoaner Sorry for the highjack !!

No problem .

Well, nothing to add about mills or tech, but beautiful map. It's always nice to see something hand drawn, and you're doing a fantastic job. Everything's neat and the lines are clean; one question I have about the space around buildings - regardless of time-period or tech level, it would save wood if buildings shared walls. Obviously key buildings, like the mills and such, might not be able to for various reasons, but basic housing might share walls. I realize you're still working on this, and there are plenty of examples of towns from all time-periods where buildings don't sit that close to each other, so it's just a thought.

Good luck with this, it's looking great!

- kes

Thanks kestrelgrey, and yes I was working on shared walls houses, and now you said I'll probably make lots of them. I started drawing non but then I saw some city maps and remembered that sharing walls is a great way to save resources, specially on this case, that's why you can see lots of erased houses at the center plataform.

Well, haven't done much, only inked all the houses from the first plataform, and some of the center - and the lightouse and dockers guild. I also started to work on the infor area at right, done the City Name (Arcantis), which took me some time till I get the right font. I'm planing on drawin a fish on the city's shield up there, but let's see I may change my mind.

But there are some highlighted areas, and I need specific help/opinion on those. The river mouth was supposed, at first, to be at right (where the arrows point). But then, after the mills discussion I thought it could be better if the river came from the left, so the sawmills would be placed at the left platform, getting the fast water that comes from the river, making them move with good speed and enough force to cut woods. If I choose the "Left River" option, there will be a problem with the docks placement, though. So the question is, taking the "Right River" option, would sawmills placed on the left platform have enough water force to work (considering the blade was moved by water force)?

Another question, what do you think of the building for the smith, is that ok? Should I change it? Take another one? I plan to let the smith having to do everything by his own hand force, I mean, the city does not build anything complex or huge with iron, or other metals, only basic things like forks, knies, maybe some swords for the guards (most of the soldier's items are imported), some fishing items... And general repair.

Just a thought - the smith and any other constant user of fire (baker?) might be on a separate platform; better to contain any fire. Delivery of logs to the sawmills by floating might mean a "parking lot" of sorts next to the town - which might work best on the downstream side, or wherever an eddy of flow doesn't make the collection a) beat down the town or b) float away. As for where to put the sawmill water wheels -- unless the support pilings are close together, the current wont be much blocked. Hmm - unless the pilings were placed to INTENTIONALLY partly block the flow, and funnel it with extra force past the wheels...

Have you thought about ice? Does your climate ever cause big chunks to be zooming down river?

Originally Posted by jbgibson

...Hmm - unless the pilings were placed to INTENTIONALLY partly block the flow, and funnel it with extra force past the wheels...

You sir just gave an great idea, I'll try to work with this now

As for the ice, I was thinking about a "good" weather, I mean, the temperatures will be between 20~15 on summer, and something around 0 at winter. It may have some snowing days, but it would be rare and just few( a little?) snow, not enough to freeze the lake's surface, only some of the tributaries river - at their source on mountains. Too much snow would be a big - and heavy - problem for the city, even because if the lake freezes there is no ships for trading, selling or buying products in the city.

At the smith and bakery - I don't remind of anything elese that uses so much fire - I'll see if I can find a better place for them, without having to make another platform.