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Thread: Felmyr Place Names (WIP)

  1. #11

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    Country Names (continued)

    The second country name I have is also very much settled on and raises the idea of non-English real-world languages in fictional worlds.

    Clover

    This is a former Midlesettian colony (not appearing on the map above). The name Clover is directly derived as a result of the colonisation of the country many years ago. I will explain the case of place names in Ireland to demonstrate what I mean.

    Ireland was colonised by Britain many years ago. At the time, Gaeilge (or Irish) was the predominant language. Over time, as English became the dominant language, place names became anglicised. For example, I'm from a county named Kildare. Kildare is an anglicised version of Cill Dara which means Church of the Oak. Similarly, the county town is named Naas, an anglicised version of Nás na Ríogh or the Meeting Place of the Kings.

    The vast majority of Irish place names have gone through this process.

    I've done the same with Clover. It's a group of islands some distance off the coast of Midleset whose name in Irish is interchangeably Clocfuair or Clocfhuiar. It means both Cold Stone and Wild Stone.

    Having gone through a change following colonisation it is now Clover. And that name in and of itself resonates with a perception of Ireland. Which is its proxy

    That's my thought process for coming up with this name. I mentioned that I have some strong thoughts on place names for Clover and I'll discuss this in my next post. It concerns the use of non-English languages in world building and I'll drag in some of my criticisms/observations on the work of Andrzej Sapkowski, one of my favourite fantasy authors.

    Thanks again for reading

  2. #12

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    Country Names (continued)

    I love the Witcher series (books and games). I think Sapkowski is one of the wittiest writers of dialogue, and he creates excellent characters that I really care about while I'm reading. They're so rich I can even get past the frequent lack of a plot

    But I really struggle to get past his Celtic/Nordic conlang

    I had never read fantasy that incorporated any other real world language (besides English of course). But I speak Irish and this is just one of the languages that Sapkowski incorporates into his writing. But it seems to me that he doesn't actually speak Irish (due to how he uses it) and it only serves to repeatedly take me out of the story. It just seems clumsy.

    Perhaps for the majority of readers this doesn't happen because they don't speak Irish (or one of the other languages he's mashed into his world). Perhaps it creates a seamless impression of a Viking-like race? And isn't this real world grounding what I'm advocating in my above posts?

    Well, yes. But I think it could be done better, that's all.

    I have no problem playing around with English because it's my native language. Grimmsmouth city already has over 700 named elements and they all feel coherent to me because I understand English and (hopefully) know how to manipulate it to create the impression I want. I could maybe make a passable attempt at manipulating Irish, too.

    But that's where I'd have to stop. If I messed around too much with Japanese it is very likely I'd only serve to knock the Japanese speakers out of my map over and over again. Fine if that's my intention, but it's not.

    So in Clover I'll base the names off of Irish. But I'll hide them behind an anglicised version and won't go into what's happening in the background. I also have a WIP idea about how to represent this in an actual map so hopefully I'll go into that next.

    Thanks for reading

  3. #13
    Guild Expert Guild Supporter aeshnidae's Avatar
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    A very fascinating thread, Weery! I love learning about how other people come up with their world names. I often use Google Translate to pick names, or pieces of names. For instance, when creating my world, I randomly found out that Äerd is Luxembourgish for Earth. Until that point, I didn't consider that Luxembourg had its own language, but I thought it was a great choice!

    And then my DM handed over all DMing duties to me, so I got stuck with some of his place names (Äerd is now Ehalia, and our realm is Shannara, which means people ask me if I've read the Chronicles of Shannara, which I have not). I also shifted around the world map to make it fit with our game, including some extra mountains near Dulgany, which are required for one of the PC's backstories. I also made some minor modifications to world-building to accommodate the game. Here's what I've got now, so you can see the names:

    Ehalia FINAL 8.28.17 (smaller).jpg

    This was my very first color map, so I will re-work it later, but for now I have it printed in large format for my D&D game. A few people have told me it reminds them of Westeros and Essos; I don't really think so, but Westeros is clearly based on England anyway so I'm not exactly robbing George R.R. Martin of his ideas. The region relevant for my D&D game is also based on England, which is fine with me because so much high fantasy is based on Arthurian legends and such. I've also read a ton of English history from the Norman Conquest through Henry VIII, so it's familiar. However, I am looking forward to reading Tomi Adeyemi's Children of Blood and Bone, as it is high fantasy based on African culture and I've never read a fantasy book based on anything other than Western European and Arabian cultures. But first I have to finish The Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, the Power Behind Five English Thrones.

    In terms of naming, in order to help my players feel that they know our game world, I do use names that are evocative of real world places. For instance, Duscany is akin to Italy at the start of the Renaissance, so I've tried to come up with names that sound Mediterranean. Kashgar is based on the Persian empire, so I went with names that sound like they wouldn't be out of place in the Middle East.

    I am not above zooming around Google Maps and cherry picking names of real places, or pieces of names that I mash together. And because I'm ethnically Hungarian (I'm first generation American), I also like to use Hungarian. It also has the benefit of being an unusual language that very few people recognize, which makes it perfect for use as a Druidic or magical language in-game. (I can speak a little Hungarian and I'm actively learning more of it. But hey, my players don't realize that my Druid is saying "happy birthday, Grandma" or "I would like sparkling water, thank you very much." )

    I'm looking forward to reading more about your naming methods, Weery!

  4. #14

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    Thanks so much Aeshnidae

    It sounds like you're using the same approach to me by using similar real world names to evoke an understanding of some basics in the viewer (or player in your own case). I think it's a real effective method if done well and with some subtlety. And when you have these assumptions in place you can then begin to break them down for your own ends.

    I remember Robin Hobb doing this type of thing in her writing but for a map maker it might be something so simple as including an unexplained location to make the reader curious. For example, in my Grimmsmouth map I have indicated in a forest, a small location called a nightmare clearing and provided no explanation. Not the biggest deal, but it still serves to break down the illusion I'm creating of a normal industrialising city.

    I love your Ehalia map! I had to google Essos as the similarities didn't jump out at me. Maybe the south eastern corners are similar but little else I reckon. I'm delighted to learn of your recommendation of Tomi Adeyemi as well because I routinely try to read outside of my regular pattern and this seems like an ideal chance! I've enjoyed George Eliot, Tara Westover and Cormac McCarthy as a result of this approach. But I've also had to endure Virginia Woolf, Jeffrey Archer and Margaret Atwood

    Your use of Hungarian presents its own opportunity for naming as well. That's how I view my own closeness to Irish. Hopefully it will help make things more authentic, even if it is only to say Happy Birthday

    Thanks again for commenting and reading!

  5. #15
    Guild Expert Guild Supporter aeshnidae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weery View Post
    I remember Robin Hobb doing this type of thing in her writing but for a map maker it might be something so simple as including an unexplained location to make the reader curious. For example, in my Grimmsmouth map I have indicated in a forest, a small location called a nightmare clearing and provided no explanation. Not the biggest deal, but it still serves to break down the illusion I'm creating of a normal industrialising city.
    !
    My players would run straight towards something called nightmare clearing. I very much like the concept of introducing something to pique the readers'/players' interest. Dragonlance (my cornerstone fantasy series) had Darken Wood. And in real life, as I drive towards my favorite beach town, I pass a place called Slaughter Beach. All of the other towns have benign names like Farmington, Jefferson, Riverview...and then there's Slaughter Beach. It always strikes me and I wondered about it for years. (Google educated me. It's either named after William Slaughter or it's the place of a massacre of the indigenous residents. No one is sure which option is correct.) I will definitely think about doing something, just a little thing, out of the ordinary when I make my next game map.

    I'm very glad that you liked my Ehalia map and book recommendation. Here's to good reading! And for your next birthday: Boldog Születésnapot!

  6. #16
    Guild Grand Master Azélor's Avatar
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    The Witcher features many different contries and Irish sounding names are not that common in the universe. But while I played the 2 first games, I'm not vety familiar with setting, so I could be wrong. The universe felt diverse to me and more inspired from Germany/Eastern Europe.

    To me English sounding names are somewhat exotic since it's not my native language. It's French but the funny thing is that many French towns names sounds odd to me.
    Anyway, i did a map with English names, some are from old English like the title, Ondoerr, Meinland, Miskuun, and probably others but I can't differentiate them for modern English. https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...3&d=1425431662
    Some names are also inspired by the horror theme (inspiration was Ravenloft).

    More recently I started working on another horror inspired map. It's more like Lovecraft so you have a lot of England and Massachusetts sounding names. https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...9&d=1526055714

    I used several settings for inspiration like my own previous maps (White Hill, Eagle earie...), Dark souls, and a greek Philosopher... Pliny: there is a meaning. And Luciferin is not a reference to Lucifer.
    And the roads makes a pentagram if you look closely.


    I have one chinese themed map: https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...2&d=1505272910
    Some names are pretty poetic like one mountain range is named Emerald serpent but others are less so, like the one Soaked Wet province. Still very illustrative of the wet local climate.
    One province is named golden elephant, because they are rich like they could own a big elephant made of gold.
    Most names have a real meaning but some might be odd for chinese since they might invert the two syllables, otherwise the same syllables but in the wrong order might sound like nonsense. Like the car green instead of the green car.
    The west has Indian sounding names because my neighbour (Janantala Elubor) has what I think sounds Indian.
    The names of my neighbours have been sinized (to become chinese). And some border names have been deformed to show some sort of linguistic mix.
    The actual name of the dynasty is Kún. While the syllable Kun do exist in Chinese, my Kun meaning is different and the writing is unique. That character does not exist in Chinese, the one on the flag but is somewhat similar to the Song dynasty standard.


    I had a document with most of the name with their meaning. If I find it, I can post it here if you are interested. Or I can go on just by memory.
    Last edited by Azélor; 05-23-2018 at 08:35 PM.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by aeshnidae View Post
    My players would run straight towards something called nightmare clearing. I very much like the concept of introducing something to pique the readers'/players' interest. Dragonlance (my cornerstone fantasy series) had Darken Wood. And in real life, as I drive towards my favorite beach town, I pass a place called Slaughter Beach. All of the other towns have benign names like Farmington, Jefferson, Riverview...and then there's Slaughter Beach.
    There's definitely something that pulls you in to a place like Slaughter Beach or a nightmare clearing. Where I grew up there was an abandoned old house named Grouse Lodge alone in a wild orchard down the fields. We were always sneaking down there. The name struck fear into me for years.

    Until I learned that a grouse is actually a portly bird and not the terrifying monster I imagined it to be

  8. #18

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    Thanks for posting Azélor

    Quote Originally Posted by Azélor View Post
    The Witcher features many different contries and Irish sounding names are not that common in the universe. But while I played the 2 first games, I'm not vety familiar with setting, so I could be wrong. The universe felt diverse to me and more inspired from Germany/Eastern Europe.
    There's a fair bit of Irish and Welsh mixed in with the Nordic. But I agree, the main stories borrow mostly mainland European nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azélor View Post
    ...the funny thing is that many French towns names sounds odd to me.
    I'm very curious as to why this is. Why do think French names sound odd to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azélor View Post
    More recently I started working on another horror inspired map. It's more like Lovecraft so you have a lot of England and Massachusetts sounding names. https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...9&d=1526055714
    I like Lovecraft so I'll definitely keep an eye on where this map leads...


    Quote Originally Posted by Azélor View Post
    Just wow! This is a fantastic map. I especially love the clouds and depth they bring. Same with the rivers. And the colours. Actually everything

    But as this is a naming thread, I also really like your approach to naming, where you take into account your neighbours place names makes sense to me and could serve to throw up a new sort of conlang? Should that be hyphenated? I don't k-now.

    I'd be interested in the doc if you had it as I'm always keen to learn from/plagiarise other peoples work and experiences

    Thanks again.

  9. #19
    Guild Grand Master Azélor's Avatar
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    I'm very curious as to why this is. Why do think French names sound odd to you?
    Condom, diffidently
    . but I don't really have good examples right now, It's more a feeling.

    Ok maybe not France but Haiti (a former colonial possession of France) has very strange names if you look on Google map assuming you have some knowledge of French. I assume but could be wrong, that when the slave got their freedom, they did not really speak the language but named towns with French names without knowing the meaning of the words used. Examples: Cabaret, Cul de Sac (dead end) , Pont Janvier (bridge built in january?), Bonnet, Risque but Savane Zombi is probably the best one I could find in a quick search.

    I speak French but I'm from Québec. It must be a cultural thing. French only emerged as the dominant language of France recently. During the Revolution, half the French did not speak French well or not at all. They spoke regional languages that are not all ineligible from one to another. France is an older country with many different cultural influences.

    Here I'd say that it is less diverse maybe. We have a lot of names based on Saints like St Louis in the US or St Lawrence/St-Laurent, French historical characters: Laval, Chomedey, or based on native American languages. Very few people speak these languages but they are everywhere so these names don't sound odd to me at all: Quebec, Canada, Ottawa, Saskatoon, Ontario, Manhattan, Massachusetts are just a few examples.
    Last edited by Azélor; 05-24-2018 at 08:47 PM.

  10. #20
    Guild Expert Guild Supporter aeshnidae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weery View Post
    There's definitely something that pulls you in to a place like Slaughter Beach or a nightmare clearing. Where I grew up there was an abandoned old house named Grouse Lodge alone in a wild orchard down the fields. We were always sneaking down there. The name struck fear into me for years.

    Until I learned that a grouse is actually a portly bird and not the terrifying monster I imagined it to be
    Well, birds did used to be terrifying flying dinosaurs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azélor View Post
    Here I'd say that it is less diverse maybe. We have a lot of names based on Saints like St Louis in the US or St Lawrence/St-Laurent, French historical characters: Laval, Chomedey, or based on native American languages. Very few people speak these languages but they are everywhere so these names don't sound odd to me at all: Quebec, Canada, Ottawa, Saskatoon, Ontario, Manhattan, Massachusetts are just a few examples.
    Chesapeake, Susquehanna, Chincoteague, Anacostia, Patapsco...you're right, Azélor, there are so many places with Native American names, and I'm so used to them that they don't sound odd.

    BTW, Azélor, your heraldry is gorgeous! And the names on your Leohtwald map do give me a feel for the place.

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