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Thread: List the Most Common "Reality" Errors!

  1. #61
    Guild Expert Facebook Connected Meshon's Avatar
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    I was looking around that map link and found Lake Nasser and its crazy fractal shoreline. Amazing what a sudden rise in water with little to no subsequent erosion looks like. Also, I peered really hard but I couldn't see any ruins under the water.

    Meshon

  2. #62
    Publisher Mark Oliva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chick View Post
    All of the things in this thread can be ignored if you need to for some purpose. It's just a guide for how to make your map look realistic geographically and geologically. If, as Mark always points out, you don't care about that, then it's up to you, this is just a way to become aware of how you are changing reality.
    Actually, I haven't pointed that out, nor is that really my opinion.

    The things that are being discussed in this thread really are very, very important to all of us who are trying to do serious and believable cartographic work, but the things being brought up here are not the sum and essence of all things for most users of this forum, although they are, as said, very, very important. However, they are not so important that they tip the scales in such a manner as to destroy our work. That can happen when advice is given, as it has been in a forum thread here, that if one abandons reality on one point, one might as well do what one wants and abandon it entirely.

    Some people here map the real world, meaning Earth, the world in which we live. A few people map fictional alternate worlds in which the other world obeys the same rules as those applied to Earth. More map science fiction (note the word fiction) worlds (including versions of Earth as it might exist in the future) that often have been changed through future science. One may hypothesize and argue about what future science will produce and when it will do it, but history pretty well has shown that such hypotheses often are quite different from the end result. In creating such a virtual, future, in some degree by science shaped world, the cartographer needs to create an alternate planet in which those things that we believe to be realities in the 21st century no longer are quite so important a guideline. Instead, science fiction world creators and cartographers need to strive above all for believability.

    Most cartographers in this guild submit maps of fantasy realms for fantasy role-playing games or fantasy novels. Most of these worlds are filled with creatures and historical events that are not believed to have existed ever upon our own Earth and most of these worlds have been shaped to one extent or another by magic. All of this by popular contemporary definition is unreal, even if some of us might believe that elves, dwarves, trolls and magic really do exist but are only well hidden.

    Telling the creator, author or cartographer of a fantasy world with enchanted creatures and magic that all should follow the alleged rules of reality not only is a contradiction but also is tantamount to saying that he or she should forget fantasy to begin with. Telling the same people that if they make things that defy the rules of reality they might as well forget reality is just plain bad advice. Just as is the case with science fiction creators and cartographers, the fantasy author and mapper need to achieve something other than reality, they need to achieve believability.

    Quote Originally Posted by chick View Post
    To me, a fantasy map is ruined if it keeps me from picturing the fantasy world as real.
    Taken literally, that sentence says that all fantasy maps have the potential of being ruined for you because all fantasy maps, by their nature, have the potential of being, in part, unreal. However, I think and hope that you mean something other than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by chick View Post
    I want the elves and dwarves to live in a world where water flows downhill. It's hard enough to suspend reality to accommodate them, without having to also suspend all the physical laws of the universe as well.
    I hope that none of us here is foolish enough to debate about what you want. However, if It's hard enough for you to suspend reality to accommodate ... elves and dwarves I might go so far as to suggest that what you want is a bit removed from what most fantasy mappers here want and do in creating their settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by chick View Post
    I think we need to have some portion of reality to anchor fantasy.
    That, on the other hand, is a point upon which almost all of us probably agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by chick View Post
    So that is really the purpose of this thread. Not to insist that everyone follow reality, but to help those who want to.
    In a sense, I think that's correct. I think that was the purpose of this thread when you started it. But I also think the contents of the postings that have been made since that start really have expanded the purpose of the thread for guild members. I think its current purpose might now be to help guild members use reality as a foundation for their fantasy creations, rather than merely to help those who want to follow reality. After all, in a guild dominated by fantasy (i.e. non-real in some respects) helping only those who want to follow reality might not address many guild members' needs or desires.

    Let's remember that the ideas posted in this thread go beyond cartography. A map is not the definition of a setting but rather the visual realization of a fantasy world that has been imagined by its creator. Thus, in any sensible discussion of reality and non-reality and virtual reality in a fantasy RPG or novel setting, one must go beyond cartographic issues to the definitions of the setting in general, some elements of which can be described only in texts and not in maps.

    The idea behind this thread began with another topic that dealt with the concept of a floating volcano. The initiator of that thread received replies that ranged from ridicule to sound supportive suggestions. The floating volcano is a good illustrating topic, because it's not that far removed from floating cities.

    In the Forgotten Realms® campaign setting, originally published by the old TSR® Inc. and now published by Wizards of the Coast® Inc., the old, highly magical nation of Netheril had floating cities that hovered above the world's surface, cities that high-powered wizards tore from the base upon terra firma and sent upward with extremely powerful spells.

    It may be that one likes or dislikes the Forgotten Realms or the Netheril part of the Realms, but the real world fact of the matter is that the Realms are the best-selling, most popular fantasy RPG campaign setting ever created, one of the most-mapped fantasy RPG settings and a setting with some of the most highly-praised maps in fantasy RPG history. Regardless of one's own likes and dislikes, there is no fantasy RPG setting and no set of fantasy RPG maps that defines the mainstream of fantasy RPG creation and fantasy RPG cartography to the extent that the Forgotten Realms campaign setting does.

    The truth is that I don't like today's Forgotten Realms setting much at all, and I positively disliked Netheril, with its floating cities. I thought it all was hokey. However, my dissenting thoughts are mostly irrelevant when I give advice, because they are far from the mainstream. Rather than pushing our own philosophies on others we might be better advised to help them to achieve their own goals.

    That applies too to guild members who are seeking cartographic advice for fantasy novels. I would argue that nothing has defined and shaped modern mainstream fantasy literature as much as the novels The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings by the late Prof. J.R.R. Tolkien.

    If Tolkien were posting here, he would have the reality-or-nothing school all over his back. The right-angled mountains of Mordor are nothing compared to some of his other violations! Think of it: A perfectly healthy forest like Myrkwood becomes ill because of the presence of a black necromancer. And then once fertile lands go on over a seemingly endless distance between the Misty Mountains and the Mountains of Mordor, first turned into a desolation, then swamps where undead lurk underwater waiting to grab victims and finally plains of ash before one finally reaches those criminal right-angle mountains.

    Why do these things work for most people in the realms of fantasy RPGs and fantasy novels? I would submit that the answer is that the creators and cartographers do exactly what is and should be the objective of this thread and advice given in this guild. All successful fantasy RPG settings and fantasy novels of which I'm aware begin with a foundation. It is the real world in which we live, along with all of its rules of reality, true and false. But then, because these settings are fantasy, the creators add elements that go beyond real world reality into a virtual reality of their own that is unreal in our earthly world. The driving force for that non-real virtual reality usually is magic.

    This is where those who post here with fantasy RPG maps and fantasy novels can use help. Magic changes things and makes them unreal, but for the RPG setting or novel to be successful, these changes that veer from reality must be believable or credible. That usually is done well when the unreal is integrated into a basically real environment.

    Once we accept the unreal element, such as the floating volcano, as being a virtual reality within the fantasy environment, we need to do all that is necessary to make it and its presence believable and credible. That responsibility rests, of course, with the creator. He or she first must give us a good explanation of why and how this magical aberration of reality was realized. After that, however, we need to know the limits of the magic and then define how our foundation - the realities of our own Earth - are affected by and will react to the magical aberration.

    Successful unrealities in fantasy works seldom have empirical effects. The magical force that has created a floating volcano usually does only that much. The spellcaster usually does not also employ additional magic to place sunshine beneath the floating volcano where there otherwise would be shade, nor does he or she usually send in magical rain to water the soil under the floating volcano's umbrella below. If the volcano is active, there probably also is lava runoff hitting the land below.

    These things usually are beyond the limits of the magic at hand. Our foundation then needs to deal with these effects of the magic. That foundation, being reality, must determine in a real world manner how the land below reacts to the volcano's shadow, its rain umbrella and the lava overflow. Those are the ingredients that are necessary to make the incredible both credible and believable.

    Fortunately, after the initial ridiculing in the floating volcano thread, this is exactly what guild members did, and they did it well. If we want to help each other build better settings and make better maps, we need to do it on this level. We need to take the creator's work and apply reality to it to make it believable and credible. That helps. Telling intelligent guild members that there are no such things as floating volcanoes helps no one.
    Mark Oliva
    The Vintyri (TM) Project

  3. #63
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    I've added one more item to the list: Towns should be smaller than the mountains

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChickPea View Post
    Here's something that I think I saw discussed once, but I'm not sure if this happens in nature often or if it's in the 'unlikely' category.

    I see maps sometimes where there is a river that has its origin near the coast on one side of a continent, then it flows all the way across the land to exit into the sea at the other side of the continent. There is no mountain range or suchlike to obstruct the nearer coast. Is it realistic that a river would wind its away across a continent like that, rather than flowing towards the nearest coastline? (May as well pick your brains while I'm here!)
    It may not be a mountain obstructing, just higher land than the way it has actually gone. If the land between it and the sea was ten feet lower, that might be enough for it to have gone the short route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Konraw View Post
    It may not be a mountain obstructing, just higher land than the way it has actually gone. If the land between it and the sea was ten feet lower, that might be enough for it to have gone the short route.
    Check out the Severn River in the UK. It flows 220 miles but its source is 12 miles from the sea.

  6. #66

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    I see that some creating-philosophy thread emerged here, I'll say a few things I think about it.
    Receiver of your art will (consciously or not) compare what he sees to what he knows. Only assuring him really strongly that something is made on purpose and reasonably, will make him stop thinking there's something wrong. That's why SW fans can be fascinated with Force and lightsabers and at the same time complain that there shouldn't be sound in space. Force and lightsabers are major elements of concept, cosmic sounds are errors made out of negligence. When in high-fantasy movie there are really bad actors, badly written dialogues and absurd script, every receiver will be disgusted because he'll see that people don't act like that in real life and there's no reason for that, it's not result of the concept but of negligence. When you have world full of magic and you show your readers some flying cities made to reinforce that impression, they'll trust you - especially if this kind of magic is result of some thinking shown in your work, coherent with overall magic description you created. But when you're drawing a map where jungle is right next to huge glacier without explanation and then, asked, you say that it's because of magic, you're treating you reader like an idiot and that's not cool, and he'll realize that quickly. Like writing the plot shouldn't be just a bunch of things that happen and composing shouldn't be just playing some melodies one after one, the same with building you whole world - it should be coherent, one thing should flow from another, there should be some reason - in world, in concept, in overall perception, anywhere, but there should be a reason that will work for your reader. And if some element isn't important enough for you to put some work in it - make it more fit to the whole, make it realistic, give it some attention from your side - then it just shouldn't be there.
    And also, deciding to create something realistic is a challenge that will make your skill rise, will train your mind in creating. You have to put some work in it, not just write down bunch of ideas or draw random shapes. You will grow beyond that depending on randomness of ideas that just come to your mind - you slowly take control. When you know the reasons of things and create them consciously, then it's up to your desicion, if you want to make everything realistic, or not - and you can predict the effects.

    And here's a handful of my observations, I think they're quite useful, but these aren't really rules - the first of them simplifies the reality so much it doesn't really have good examples in real world except Americas - Eurasia is too complex, Africa too random.

    I don't think it's a tutorial, so I'll place it here. I hope I won't make any bigger mistakes in grammar and vocabulary, but if I do, please correct me.

    These rules aren't really universal, they have their exceptions in reality and are applicable only in really big scale - the smaller the land, the less rules there really are. That's because there are some phenomenons that occur rather in short range, so you have bigger arsenal of possible reasons of anything there. I you're mapping continent of the size of Europe - you don't really have to look here, 'cause just a little look at the real Europe will convince you that it's just too complex. Not even talking about possible worlds where normal tectonics just don't apply or you want some magic or gods to be in play. I assume we're talking about a globe which motion is similar to the Earth's one.

    And of course these are just my thoughts, rules I personally use - and I'm not a geologist. So I look forward to some discussion. And, of course, I hope it will help some of you, people.

    1. Start continents as triangles.
    Basic landmass fits into a shape of a (largely distorted) triangle. One of its edges will be the front of the plate, where it folds, creating a large and high mountain range. Behind those mountains the terrain gradually descends into plateaus, then lowlands, lakes and seas. But at the very end, on the back of the continent will be second major mountain range, but notably smaller and lower - being the relic of the past movement and collisions in the other direction.

    2. In moutains closed curves and branches are not good
    This applies to mountains again. In a scale where erosion applies, it's nothing bad, but when talking about a really big areas, moutains form just single lines, and don't circle around areas.

    3. Glaciers are your friends
    Wherever you have climate cold enough to say "there was a glacier here", you can do anything. Glaciers create lakes, big hills (which can even fit in the role of mountain ranges), anything you want and are unpredictable enough for you to get rid of any "how can it be" questions. Baltic sea started as a river. So as long as you don't need your randomly placed mountains to be really high, glacial landforms will resolve any problem.

    4. Currents circle in eights
    In the zones from equator to tropics, eastern side of continent is more humid, while the western coast is drier, with larger area of deserts. Because in these zones you have warm currents at the western side of the ocean and cold on the eastern.
    In the zones from tropic to the pole, eastern side of continent is colder, while the eastern coast is warmer, having larger area of forests etc. Because in these zones you have cold currents at the western side of the ocean and warm on the eastern.
    (One not obvious rule about currents: the cold one forms desert, not the warm one. Warm currents make water evaporate, the steam goes into the land as the clouds and give rain. The cold ones stop this and make land dry. Have it in mind if you really want to work with currents.)

    5. The more water you have, the more jagged coastlines will be
    In drier zones zones the coastline is rather mild and gently curved. Around the equator the rivers will make it rough. Near the poles - glaciers will make it rough. Wherever you should really take erosion into account, you should stop to think about coastline as a line. Don't draw a line. Paint a mass, which has some basic shape, then erase more and more with a small virtual rubber, simulating the erosion, creating complicated gulfs which form the fjords.

  7. #67
    Guild Apprentice Applejack's Avatar
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    I think I'm gonna have to disagree with the jagged coastlines.
    While round shapes are very rare, smooth, or at least, not really jagged coastlines are quite normal.
    Irregular, oke, that's undeniable.

    Many maps I see have those weird peninsulas reaching everywhere, and they're often over-jagged.
    When compared to a real world map, you can quite easily see the difference.
    Only when you zoom in, do fractured shores become more visible, but many maps
    have 90% of coasts jagged, and they're big jags, like a Norwegian fjord tenfold.
    The superjagged maps also tend to throw in random islands everywhere, and peninsulas
    at every corner...

    Besides, jagged coastlines are ''native'' to northern regions, like Victoria Island, but look
    at Africa, or Iberia. I tend to vary between jagged and more smooth.

    Maybe it's just me, and I'm happy to apologize, but those over-jagged maps kinda bug me.

  8. #68
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    IMO, jagged vs smooth coastlines are also need to consider the scale at which they are drawn. i.e. Rocky coasts are jagged at a close scale (meters) but may be smooth when viewed at a continental level.

  9. #69
    Guild Apprentice Applejack's Avatar
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    Exactly, exactly. The wrong scales and over-jagging, a lot of maps I've seen have those ''errors.''

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