Results 1 to 10 of 14

Thread: Scales

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Community Leader NeonKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Surrey, Canada, EH!
    Posts
    5,051

    Post

    OK, something I can weigh in on (Hitches up his pants with a nice wet *AHEM*)

    Scale, a lot of people wonder about scale and what is too big, too small etc.

    So lets start first with outdoor maps (i.e. Overland). Now, I am not going discuss thing like how far should a mountain be from a flat plains etc, as well, the real world is FULL of exceptions. But the real question I am sure you are asking is: "What sort of distance should I have for distance between communities?"

    To answer this I always look to one of my Favorite movies: Monty Python's JABBERWOKY. In one scene, Michael Palin's Character Denis Cooper (A Cooper's son by the way), is talking with Mr Fishmonger (A Fishmonger obviously, and the father of his Love Griselda Fishmonger). In the Scene, Mr Fishmonger is regaling young Mr Cooper with tales of his travels and the lines go as follows:

    Mr Fishmonger: When I was in Muckley the other day--
    Denis Cooper: Muckley? That's a ways.
    Mr Fishmonger: Two miles or more, easy.
    Denis Cooper: Gosh, I'd like to travel someday.

    Now, to those of us now-a-days this is quite funny, but in reality, back then, for the common man, they pretty much were born, lived and died all without ever leaving their village, and these villages were quite close to one another.

    Now, this also does not mean one won't find villages all scatered off many days travel away, but it does represent a true fact. The majority of a nations population was spread all over mostly in rural villages, and these became more closer together the closer they are to a large city/town/castle.

    There is an excellent article on Populations in relation to fantasy kingdoms here: http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm and a lot of that can extrapolated to a map.

    Now, when I do fantasy mapping, I have my Overview Map, with major cities only shown, then as I make smaller maps (read smaller SCALE), I start to put in more villages, towns, thorps, etc.

    This then leads to the next question: SCALE FOR A COMMUNITY.

    This is often harder to account for, as we are used to seeing our cities (at least here in North America) of having lots of land, and being recent. For example, Canada's OLDEST city just turned 200 this year, and that city is Montreal, yet still is has phenomenal land usage. and by this I mean, Large empty yards around building, wide boulevards, etc.

    Most 'ancient' cities, Like Athens, Rome, London, etc., a choked with narrow winding lanes, often only wide enough for a single car. To get an Idea, use GOOGLE maps on Satelite view to look at some European cities. S, when I am drawing up my Cities, I tend to keep them contrastaned to maybe a couple of miles per side, with tight windy roads, etc.

    Further, a medieval city will not have private homes like I see all the time in Fantasy Games, like Baldur's Gate CRPG etc. Private residences like that would be limited to the extremely wealthy. The average citizen would have a small set of apartments (apartments Chiefly British. A suite of rooms within a larger building set aside for a particular purpose or person.)

    So, in a medieval city, the majority of buildings would be business on the lower floor (street level), and maybe even above, and above that the apartments of the workers who tended to live as close to their work as possible. There would still be building that were entirely apartment buildings, but on the whole these were not excessive.

    Additionally, in most cities, (especially when you look at the European ones on Google Maps) one notices that each city block tends to form a central courtyard. This would be where the communal toilets, and garbage pits would be located, as well as small vegetable plots and the like.

    SO, what about buildings.

    Most buildings of the time were small cramped affairs. The would have a 'central' salon where meals would be taken/prepared, and where most of the socializing, and seperate 'bedrooms' for the various family memebers were not commonplace.

    A typical home for more affluent people would be about 30feet square. The following link provides a few different floor plans of various houses/apartments from greco roman and medieval times. While some appear to be 'made up' a lot of them are also of scientific creation (read archeological etc), and so carries a great deal of weight.

    http://images.google.ca/images?um=1&...=Search+Images

    So, what do we know? Villages were often only separated by a few miles. Cities were compact and not spread out in medieval times often only a few square miles in size, with narrow roads, and narrow small buildings clustered together.
    Daniel the Neon Knight: Campaign Cartographer User

    Never use a big word when a diminutive one will suffice!

    Any questions on CC3? Post them with CC3 in the Subject Line!
    MY 'FAMOUS' CC3 MAPS: Thunderspire; Pyramid of Shadows; King of the Trollhaunt Warrens; Demon Queen's Enclave

  2. #2

  3. #3

    Post

    Thanks for the replies, Neon in particular, I'd been searching for period floorplans for a while with out much joy, although quite how i managed to not find anything considering the search term you used amazes me! I really don't know what I was doing!

    The demographic stuff is great also I had wondered the size footprint a period city of x number of people would be, so thats great too!

    Am taking a short break from mapping until CD3 arrives, but i will be sure to post when I've taken something as far as I think I can for critique!

  4. #4

    Default

    "mmmm... the google is strong with this one..."

    -YodA

  5. #5
    Community Leader Facebook Connected Badger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Morton, TX
    Posts
    1,473

    Default

    When building cities using CC3/CDpro .... which I've done quite a few and I too had the same problem with scale. After a couple years of trial and error, I can only give you the advice that works for me.

    I first sketch out the layout of the city in pencil on a regular piece of printer/typewriter paper. The roads, the walls, gates, and perhaps even where I want to put certain inns, guilds, etc... THIS step here was very important to achieving a well finished and polished map, as opposed to a city map that I'd placed and removed so many symbols and lines that I just end the program in disgust and there the map would sit (probably still does). For me, by placing it on paper first, and getting the general layout.... I knew where I wanted things to go, and wasn't constantly editing, deleting them because it didn't look right or wasn't working with what I had...etc...

    Second.... depending on the size, I kept this ratio in mind. As an average mind you, for a city you want to be packed together you increase the ratio, for a sparse layed out city.... decrease the ratio. But the ratio of buildings to people should be in the realm of 15% .... (5000 population will have 750 buildings). for the area... again, for a crowded city... decrease the area, sparse, increase the area, but take the population and multiply it by 1500 sq ft. (5000 pop city will have an area roughly 7,500,000 sq ft.) you can use the area tool in CC to gauge your progress....

    I kept my houses and buildings between 20' and 60', and use the distance tool often to check that I was keeping to the realtively uniform size. My road sizes were more often than not 15' main roads, 10' secondary and 5-7' for alleys....

    those are some of the main tips that work for me... it also depends on how you want to make the city look... more like the cities of our ancient history .... or fantastical and magical... so.. hope that helps

  6. #6

    Post

    That's very helpful advice delg, spot on what i was looking for, thanks for replying

  7. #7
    Community Leader Facebook Connected Badger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Morton, TX
    Posts
    1,473

    Default

    glad to be of assistance... glad my years of fumbling around with CCpro didn't go totally to waste you can PM if you have anymore questions on city maps...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •