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Thread: How far should RPG maps follow natural laws?

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  1. #1
    Guild Member Publius's Avatar
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    Post Caution: Long rant-like drivel here

    Interestingly, there are some situations when you do paying work when you have a client that wants something rather specific which makes you scratch your head and say "huh?" and seems to violate that suspension of disbelief. When you do a map for an RPG that isn't yours, expect some handwaiving where you'd prefer it would not be found, and some places where the client wants strict observance to something you consider of lesser importance to the thing that got handwaived.

    I've been very lucky in this so far, in that the company I primarily work with has been very good about working with their folks from the get-go. Often, they will take what I do and work it into their stuff, sometimes the handwaive comes before there is too much investment on your part. That makes it very easy. "This is the map I do, so I do it."

    One example happened when I worked on the maps for a Post-Apocalyptic setting book. I did a lair in that one for a Wizard that had installed himself as a Warlord in a pastiche of Thundarr the Barbarian (a rather well done pastiche I might say). The artifacts of the "World that Was" are used as a basis for other things in that sort of setting. Like Chairots built out of the chasis of an old Chevy and dragged by dinosaurs, stuff like that. This is done both to connect the setting to the players and give a solid Post-Apoc feel.

    I had a couple of ideas when the Developer and I were discussing the different maps for the project. Stuff like usng a Fast-food-type place as the Ancient basis for the lair -- just because it would have amused me to have the Big Bad Guy send his Death Legion out of a McDonald's. It would have been a good gag too, but the Developer went with one of my other ideas of using an old Skyscraper as a basis for a "Wizard's Tower". So off I go in my Mr. Monk fashion to do research on what will happen to structures after the Bomb/Moon breaks/People-die-off-in-whatever and that sort of thing. Halfway through working the map out, the Developer mentions that the Thundarr setting will be a thousand years in the future.

    I say to myself: "A thousand?"

    By that time, the only structures built in the Twentieth century that are left will be stuff like bridges and that sort of thing (Medieval Castles were made of much sterner stuff time-wise and look at their present state). Skyscrapers might last a good 300-400 years, longer even with regular repair and maintenance. But a Thousand Years? Metal fatigue and such, especially if there is any groundwater and no maintenance (like you know, after the Bomb), will collapse that puppy well before then. Right away I want to start ranting, but instead I ask a few leading questions to feel him out on how committed he is to this.

    The Developers position (and it is the same one he made publicly when the issue came up on that Companies boards independently, so I am not talking out of school here) was that this was something that the genre simply used. Period. No one questioned it on Thundarr, why question it here? Seeing he was resolute and taking the path of least resistance I did the maps, just thinking in my hindbrain that those were really 1,000 seasons or maybe that the calendars got shorter or something. You know, just to trick myself into doing the job.

    But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that he was right and I was wrong. I freely admit that now, emphatically even. The point in game design is to create an image, a feeling, a tone. That ephemeral quality that creates a shared picture of the imaginary world into which we delve collectively. A lot of that dynamic depends on what the characters see and hear and have physically 'present' (in-game of course) to respond and react to. Thundarr with nothing but Ancient relicts that have largely disintegrated and are nearly unrecognizable isn't post-Apocalyptic, its a fantasy setting that happens to be far into the future rather than the past (like Smith's Zothique). If you want Post-Apocalyptic you need time to develop new social customs, for mutations to develop and to create a new set of myths and legends that incorporate the "Time that was...." So the thousand year period was entirely appropriate. And so too was the Skyscraper, the perfect image of the Ancients to be used as the base for a Warlord. A skyscrapper that was battered and skeletal (I used a curtain wall style building based off of the Lever Building, one of the first of that Glass & Steel type) but something that the players could say to themselves "Yup. Ruined Skyscrapper. Post-Apocalyptic."

    The map wasn't hyper-realistic, but it was appropriate. It reinforced the setting. I'm glad I didn't raise a stink (my initial reaction), because at the point I was so into getting the details that I lost sight of what it was I was supposed to do. To explain that concept a bit: I basically work "bottom-up" rather than "top- down": By which I mean that I put together a building by thinking about the guy/gal/it that designed it first and then what it was originally built for, not by saying "I need a room here" or there. This can take me a few seconds or a long time along a convulted path, just depends. Often, I find that this method gives me an unusual take on the maps I draw and helps me avoid cliches, but it also has its drawbacks. I get lost amid the details for one, which was my problem there. Also, I'm learning to change that a little, to step back and say "What is the top-down view of this thing? Have I accomplished my goals?" And sometimes this calls for me to make changes so that the thing am doing is not just logical but right for the project. The game designer has been excellent about this mental readjustment on my part, and he has shown me a lot just by talking with me. I appreciate the time he spends doing that because it isn't like he's getting paid for his valuable time.

    And there is a side-benefit from my interaction with him from his end as well. At least that is my conceit. Several of the maps I did for that project all started with a list of possibilities I sent along from the get-go and he made them better by making certain that I stayed on the right path. Maybe that contribution is no more than what the Developer gets the forums on his company website, but I Hope that I have stimulated an idea or two. I just wonder if they were good ones

  2. #2

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    Publius - fantastic point and well said. I don't feel that your post was a rant or drivel. (I merely find myself wishing that I was also making maps for an RPG.)

    I think that in any aspect of game design, map making, or whatnot, the artist needs to keep in mind the purpose and his/her audience. By understanding and fully respecting those two key aspects of any project, the cartographer can't go wrong.

  3. #3

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    I haven't got the mapmaking skill under control yet. But I find this an general problem with rpg's. Personaly I like playing and creating realistic rpg's. But we(the group of gm and player I play with) started with dungeons and dragons; so there is still a lot of fantasy in the games we play. Now I try to make the fantasy believable. And I think that's a great point to reach as a gm or cartographer. When the players feel like, "yeah the world could be like this." The more believable the fantasy is to more real and powerfull it becomes.

    I think Publius says a true thing. But the most people will not just make things for others. They also make them for themself.

  4. #4
    Guild Adept loogie's Avatar
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    very similar to me hans.

    I started with DND, and i love the whole dragons and orcs and beasties... and played a lot of "magic saves the day" campaigns... but as i got better at roleplaying, i lost much interest in the substance of magic to explain away all the errors of whats going on. i am much more hardcore when it comes to playing now, and have since left dnd behind, and picked up what i like to think of as a great system, called High Adventure Roleplaying (HARP) by ICE. it walks the line between being a quick hack and slash game like dnd, and an overly complicated system like rolemaster which takes 20 mins to complete a battle between 2 people. Now i use magic very lightly, take injury much more serious, and give out riches and power items much less... i find it adds something to the game... noones hanging onto their axe of decapitation and running into battle with abandon cause their cleric is sitting behind them ready to heal... it takes more thought then that

    and i believe such has bled into my work with maps as well. I find that along with my thirst for realism in combat, and roleplaying, my thirst for realism in geography of my maps has increased as well. The more it makes sense the less i have to rely on my trump of "its that way cause the god of magic made it that way... now eat your pie" my oddities now come from planned events, things i WANT to stand out, to make people want to question, or experience.

    an example of such is having a river flow directly into a mountain, and disappear... why does it disappear? no one knows.. it just does... it tends to make players want to explore it... and happen upon a passage to a large series of underground caves.

    I find that as long as you plan your unrealistic areas before you make your product, instead of living with them after you've finished it... you have succeeded. Using magic to make grand and amazing features, instead of explaining away all your flaws, makes a big difference when it comes to mapping, GMing, and love making

    "i swear honey... someone cast shrink on it!"
    Photoshop, CC3, ArcGIS, Bryce, Illustrator, Maptool

  5. #5
    Community Leader RPMiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Publius View Post
    Interestingly...
    "You have to spread some rep around before repping Publius again... blah blah blah..."

    Thank you for this excellent post!
    Bill Stickers is innocent! It isn't Bill's fault that he was hanging out in the wrong place.

    Please make an effort to tag all threads. This will greatly enhance the usability of the forums.



  6. #6
    Community Leader NeonKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPMiller View Post
    "You have to spread some rep around before repping Publius again... blah blah blah..."

    Thank you for this excellent post!
    If I could REP him twice, I would
    Daniel the Neon Knight: Campaign Cartographer User

    Never use a big word when a diminutive one will suffice!

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    MY 'FAMOUS' CC3 MAPS: Thunderspire; Pyramid of Shadows; King of the Trollhaunt Warrens; Demon Queen's Enclave

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  8. #8

    Post Plausabilty and Suggestion

    I think my interest comes from a slightly different angle.

    So far I think people have forgone realism in favour of believability. Something I wholly agree with. Publius's example of the skyscrapers he thought would be gone in a thousand years is a good one. (He conveniently ignores that his fave idea, the fast food joints, would have vanished even earlier - though maybe not the french fries ) He forgives the fast food joints their unrealism because he likes them. I think the map has to give you the elements that encourage you to buy into it.

    If I draw a street as 28 doors attached to 28 10x10' cubes. Each cube had better have a similar size thing in it or this should be a very unique street. If door one has 30 Bugbears in it, my players are going to either feel amused or cheated. The difference is in whether they have understood and accepted that the map as absurd - have they bought in? If they have, its a great map. So the second door has a Roman Trireme and the third has an infinite number of monkeys with a first draft of "Merchant of Greyhawk". This might work, once, but it has a limited currency.

    Some level of believability avoids jarring threats to the players enthusiasm. I don't want to ask them to buy in again too often. To keep their belief its best if I give them something that excites them or that they like. Manga fans see nothing wrong with importing manga characters into Faerun because they like manga. Forgotten realms purists will rebel in horror. What the players want to believe is as important as their philosophy on what is believable. Enthusiasm over correctness - Happy over "right".

    But I see another benefit of striving for 'realism', I'll call it plausible extension. This is a huge bonus to creation because it helps me choose what actually is going on.

    If I have just drawn roads connecting a bunch of towns, plausible extension says that there is traffic for those roads. If I can extrapolate, from something in the map, how much traffic and where its going I can use that to write setting. If I am very lucky my players will make some of the same observations I do and they will say "Hey this is believable" because what I'm seeing makes sense to me. Or even better, given the map, they will do something smart to achieve success - thats a good RPG moment.

    Plausible extension, or extrapolation, is one of the huge benefits of careful map making. Because you draw some of your story from the details in your map, having a logic in its construction can pay off. If you have a city with too little land to support its population, disrupting its food supply might be a stressful game element. If you can actually measure distances and travel times according to your maps - you can build strategies and plan trade routes.

    Of course you can still pick an element and simply choose to make it a reality. Some players will not care or might draw enough important detail from the narration or some other element of the adventure. It depends on your style and that of your players.


    I love Handsome Rob's attention to detail in his Atlas maps. You can daydream you way around in them and think of how the various elements might interact.

    Personally, I want to be able to make maps with that level of plausibility and realism.

    - Sigurd
    Last edited by Sigurd; 03-28-2008 at 01:55 AM.

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