How far should RPG maps follow natural laws?

[Midgardsormr]

I think I largely agree with you. The objective I aim for in my games is to create an environment that my players are happy to immerse themselves in. Any element that threatens the "willful suspension of disbelief" (a possibly overused phrase by this time) needs to be examined carefully.

Although excessive attention to realism tends to bog down the cartographer so that maps are never completed, I think there is a more insidious danger. Fantasy cartography is all about the fantasy, and fantasy deals routinely with things that are most emphatically not realistic. Attempts to make a fantasy world conform to the most minute detail of real geology, etc sap the joy from playing from me. That's the reason I am not terribly interested in Paul Cardwell's Mythworld. Heroic fantasy characters shouldn't have to worry about getting infections from the minor cuts they receive while fighting skeletons in swamp water--unless the Evil GM wants to use such an infection as the basis for the next adventure, of course.

I guess you already said the same thing in a much pithier fashion, but I was feeling compulsive this morning.

[NeonKnight]

Well, here is the thing.

EVen, Wizards of the Coast, in their books, state that for Versimilutude (sp?) and suspension of Disbelief, the campaign world/locale should mirror the real world with a few caveats.

It is after all a FANTASY world. so having a locale where the Trees Walk, or a mountain floats, or rivers flow uphill is a good if not required idea. Fantasy lore is filled with areas that defy the natural laws.

But to take this further, while this does not quite connect to the outside world, in WotC's Dungeonscape hardcover (a phenomenal book by the way and greatly recommened, along with their Cityscape book), the dungeon is probably the one local where there SHOULD be areas that defy physics. Rooms with no gravity, floting rocks, etc. These areas are actually expected by players and oddly, no one bats an eye when they enter a room where the very walls flow with blood!

[pyrandon]

Great post, ravs and a well thought out list. I tend to think in terms of visual qualities of a map before I even begin to think of the geography depicted (am I alone in that?)--so that a well-drawn, creative, moodful map will cause me to "buy" ridiculous fantasies. I wonder if that should be placed on your list, or if it's more about cartography than world contruction.

For example, we at one time had a cartographer here creating modern-world styled fantasy maps; they were beautiful in their technical, real-world visualizations. Now, I would expect from that map that no crass and blatant geographical oddities would exist, because the map is so complete and scientific. Whereas a moodier, hand-drawn/scrawled map makes me more willing to accept bizarrities. This may be just me though.

I also think Neon has a good point in where the "rules" are being broken. We will accept some places more than others. But even in these I would say the visuals dictate the dubious mindset of the viewer.

[Publius]

Interestingly, there are some situations when you do paying work when you have a client that wants something rather specific which makes you scratch your head and say "huh?" and seems to violate that suspension of disbelief. When you do a map for an RPG that isn't yours, expect some handwaiving where you'd prefer it would not be found, and some places where the client wants strict observance to something you consider of lesser importance to the thing that got handwaived.

I've been very lucky in this so far, in that the company I primarily work with has been very good about working with their folks from the get-go. Often, they will take what I do and work it into their stuff, sometimes the handwaive comes before there is too much investment on your part. That makes it very easy. "This is the map I do, so I do it."

One example happened when I worked on the maps for a Post-Apocalyptic setting book. I did a lair in that one for a Wizard that had installed himself as a Warlord in a pastiche of Thundarr the Barbarian (a rather well done pastiche I might say). The artifacts of the "World that Was" are used as a basis for other things in that sort of setting. Like Chairots built out of the chasis of an old Chevy and dragged by dinosaurs, stuff like that. This is done both to connect the setting to the players and give a solid Post-Apoc feel.

I had a couple of ideas when the Developer and I were discussing the different maps for the project. Stuff like usng a Fast-food-type place as the Ancient basis for the lair -- just because it would have amused me to have the Big Bad Guy send his Death Legion out of a McDonald's. It would have been a good gag too, but the Developer went with one of my other ideas of using an old Skyscraper as a basis for a "Wizard's Tower". So off I go in my Mr. Monk fashion to do research on what will happen to structures after the Bomb/Moon breaks/People-die-off-in-whatever and that sort of thing. Halfway through working the map out, the Developer mentions that the Thundarr setting will be a thousand years in the future.

I say to myself: "A thousand?"

By that time, the only structures built in the Twentieth century that are left will be stuff like bridges and that sort of thing (Medieval Castles were made of much sterner stuff time-wise and look at their present state). Skyscrapers might last a good 300-400 years, longer even with regular repair and maintenance. But a Thousand Years? Metal fatigue and such, especially if there is any groundwater and no maintenance (like you know, after the Bomb), will collapse that puppy well before then. Right away I want to start ranting, but instead I ask a few leading questions to feel him out on how committed he is to this.

The Developers position (and it is the same one he made publicly when the issue came up on that Companies boards independently, so I am not talking out of school here) was that this was something that the genre simply used. Period. No one questioned it on Thundarr, why question it here? Seeing he was resolute and taking the path of least resistance I did the maps, just thinking in my hindbrain that those were really 1,000 seasons or maybe that the calendars got shorter or something. You know, just to trick myself into doing the job.

But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that he was right and I was wrong. I freely admit that now, emphatically even. The point in game design is to create an image, a feeling, a tone. That ephemeral quality that creates a shared picture of the imaginary world into which we delve collectively. A lot of that dynamic depends on what the characters see and hear and have physically 'present' (in-game of course) to respond and react to. Thundarr with nothing but Ancient relicts that have largely disintegrated and are nearly unrecognizable isn't post-Apocalyptic, its a fantasy setting that happens to be far into the future rather than the past (like Smith's Zothique). If you want Post-Apocalyptic you need time to develop new social customs, for mutations to develop and to create a new set of myths and legends that incorporate the "Time that was...." So the thousand year period was entirely appropriate. And so too was the Skyscraper, the perfect image of the Ancients to be used as the base for a Warlord. A skyscrapper that was battered and skeletal (I used a curtain wall style building based off of the Lever Building, one of the first of that Glass & Steel type) but something that the players could say to themselves "Yup. Ruined Skyscrapper. Post-Apocalyptic."

The map wasn't hyper-realistic, but it was appropriate. It reinforced the setting. I'm glad I didn't raise a stink (my initial reaction), because at the point I was so into getting the details that I lost sight of what it was I was supposed to do. To explain that concept a bit: I basically work "bottom-up" rather than "top- down": By which I mean that I put together a building by thinking about the guy/gal/it that designed it first and then what it was originally built for, not by saying "I need a room here" or there. This can take me a few seconds or a long time along a convulted path, just depends. Often, I find that this method gives me an unusual take on the maps I draw and helps me avoid cliches, but it also has its drawbacks. I get lost amid the details for one, which was my problem there. Also, I'm learning to change that a little, to step back and say "What is the top-down view of this thing? Have I accomplished my goals?" And sometimes this calls for me to make changes so that the thing am doing is not just logical but right for the project. The game designer has been excellent about this mental readjustment on my part, and he has shown me a lot just by talking with me. I appreciate the time he spends doing that because it isn't like he's getting paid for his valuable time.

And there is a side-benefit from my interaction with him from his end as well. At least that is my conceit. Several of the maps I did for that project all started with a list of possibilities I sent along from the get-go and he made them better by making certain that I stayed on the right path. Maybe that contribution is no more than what the Developer gets the forums on his company website, but I Hope that I have stimulated an idea or two. I just wonder if they were good ones

[The Cartographist]

Publius - fantastic point and well said. I don't feel that your post was a rant or drivel. (I merely find myself wishing that I was also making maps for an RPG.)

I think that in any aspect of game design, map making, or whatnot, the artist needs to keep in mind the purpose and his/her audience. By understanding and fully respecting those two key aspects of any project, the cartographer can't go wrong.

[hans_worst]

I haven't got the mapmaking skill under control yet. But I find this an general problem with rpg's. Personaly I like playing and creating realistic rpg's. But we(the group of gm and player I play with) started with dungeons and dragons; so there is still a lot of fantasy in the games we play. Now I try to make the fantasy believable. And I think that's a great point to reach as a gm or cartographer. When the players feel like, "yeah the world could be like this." The more believable the fantasy is to more real and powerfull it becomes.

I think Publius says a true thing. But the most people will not just make things for others. They also make them for themself.

[loogie]

very similar to me hans.

I started with DND, and i love the whole dragons and orcs and beasties... and played a lot of "magic saves the day" campaigns... but as i got better at roleplaying, i lost much interest in the substance of magic to explain away all the errors of whats going on. i am much more hardcore when it comes to playing now, and have since left dnd behind, and picked up what i like to think of as a great system, called High Adventure Roleplaying (HARP) by ICE. it walks the line between being a quick hack and slash game like dnd, and an overly complicated system like rolemaster which takes 20 mins to complete a battle between 2 people. Now i use magic very lightly, take injury much more serious, and give out riches and power items much less... i find it adds something to the game... noones hanging onto their axe of decapitation and running into battle with abandon cause their cleric is sitting behind them ready to heal... it takes more thought then that

and i believe such has bled into my work with maps as well. I find that along with my thirst for realism in combat, and roleplaying, my thirst for realism in geography of my maps has increased as well. The more it makes sense the less i have to rely on my trump of "its that way cause the god of magic made it that way... now eat your pie" my oddities now come from planned events, things i WANT to stand out, to make people want to question, or experience.

an example of such is having a river flow directly into a mountain, and disappear... why does it disappear? no one knows.. it just does... it tends to make players want to explore it... and happen upon a passage to a large series of underground caves.

I find that as long as you plan your unrealistic areas before you make your product, instead of living with them after you've finished it... you have succeeded. Using magic to make grand and amazing features, instead of explaining away all your flaws, makes a big difference when it comes to mapping, GMing, and love making

"i swear honey... someone cast shrink on it!"

[RPMiller]

Interestingly...

"You have to spread some rep around before repping Publius again... blah blah blah..."

Thank you for this excellent post!

[NeonKnight]

"You have to spread some rep around before repping Publius again... blah blah blah..."

Thank you for this excellent post!

If I could REP him twice, I would

[ravells]

Excellent points, Publius!

Ravs