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  1. #1
    Guild Expert jbgibson's Avatar
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    Grammar and vocabulary are going to be two different issues. The words you choose are the building blocks, and you do well at that. Grammar would be the way the bricks fit together, from the level of stonelaying technique up to that of architecture. I know nothing of the relative "usefulness" of Italian and English for certain types of storytelling. I can see how our mongrel combination of bits and pieces from elsewhere has generated layers of richness. The flip side is that its mixed parentage makes English grammar and usage a messy affair. That sentence contained an example - an 'affair' being either 'a certain matter or activity', or it could mean 'an improper or illicit extramarital pairing'. I'll grant that's richness, but it's also tricky. If you can grasp and create puns and double-entendres in another language, I imagine you have a pretty good command of it :-).

    Most dictionaries are going to be of limited help with the structure and flow you need to create.

    I'm curious - with what you've shared here, did you think it out and even write it out in Italian, then translate it and flesh it out in English? Or did you compose it from the start in English? There's probably value to both ways. Have you pondered whether your feeling that English is richer for this purpose could just stem from your native tongue being "usual and mundane" versus English being to you exotic? To me Italian is quite exotic, thanks to it being wholly incomprehensible, yet musical in sound.

    That your command of the language is subtly "off" could maybe be made to work to your advantage. I think of speaker David Ring -- he has Cerebral Palsy and is extraordinarily difficult to understand. His speech is halting and slurred. Yet he is a compelling speaker - one hangs on his every word first because one HAS to, to decode his meaning, but then one is drawn in by what he has to say and how he says it. If it is somehow a part of your story, that the narrator perhaps is operating outside of his own mother tongue, a reader might accept a level of unusual expression, even be drawn in by it. I imagine the critical point there is that your storytelling, the ideas beneath the words, would have to be absolutely gripping. As another consideration, do not shy away from English translations of Italian expressions - those are going to be interesting to English readers just because they're not cliches to our ears.

    If you are going to write no matter what, AND you wish to gain skill in using the English language to do so, I imagine just going ahead and writing in English has to be a grand way to learn! If you accept that your first efforts will not chase Tolkien from the bookshelf, yet you have stories to tell that *must* somehow be expressed in English, then Go For It.

    It is a maxim worth mulling over, that before one can learn to creatively 'misuse' a skill, one must first master the proper use. I don't buy that 100%, but there's a core of truth there. I take all manner of liberties with English, and I fancy that my meaning is enhanced by the manner in which I write. But having read however many thousand books, hundreds and hundreds of authors, when I type something nonstandard, I'm shooting for a specific effect.

    Don't take anything I say as discouragement. There's incredible potential, huge possibility of unique value, in someone carrying out a passion outside his usual domain. A trumpeter is going to have an interesting take on playing the guitar. A weaver could perhaps devise a bridge to astound engineers. So you go right ahead and write !

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbgibson View Post
    Grammar and vocabulary are going to be two different issues. The words you choose are the building blocks, and you do well at that. Grammar would be the way the bricks fit together, from the level of stonelaying technique up to that of architecture. I know nothing of the relative "usefulness" of Italian and English for certain types of storytelling. I can see how our mongrel combination of bits and pieces from elsewhere has generated layers of richness. The flip side is that its mixed parentage makes English grammar and usage a messy affair. That sentence contained an example - an 'affair' being either 'a certain matter or activity', or it could mean 'an improper or illicit extramarital pairing'. I'll grant that's richness, but it's also tricky. If you can grasp and create puns and double-entendres in another language, I imagine you have a pretty good command of it :-).
    First, thank you for the time you spent to reply. :-) , is really appreciated.

    Second, to be honest Italian stay at the opposite of "usefulness", also if we speak just about "complexity", Italian is an enormous source of "writing" styles, all what you want, you can get from Italian structure. Many and many terms, various "structure" approaches and all other things you wish.
    Many great writers of the past create wonderful things from this language, but as when you use a complex "tool", the risk is to create something too simple, too obvious. I think if a writer loses his contact with what it wants to transmit, the game is lost and the "magic" fades away.

    This is not to say i am not able to transmit something by writing in Italian, but for what concerns "fantasy" , the English really feel like a natural and direct expression of my thoughts.
    - What's in my mind, what's on the paper.
    This thing for me is more than special, is really wonderful. I can write and write good stuffs about many other thematics in Italian, and also write good in fantasy, but what i get from English "meaningfulness", is more, is really what i was looking for.

    Okay, i know that sometimes i read what i write and i say : "Oh god, what the hell is that... i dont like it" but the passage between "Thoughts" and "Words" is not trivial and is also not my mother language.


    Quote Originally Posted by jbgibson View Post
    Most dictionaries are going to be of limited help with the structure and flow you need to create.

    I'm curious - with what you've shared here, did you think it out and even write it out in Italian, then translate it and flesh it out in English? Or did you compose it from the start in English? There's probably value to both ways. Have you pondered whether your feeling that English is richer for this purpose could just stem from your native tongue being "usual and mundane" versus English being to you exotic? To me Italian is quite exotic, thanks to it being wholly incomprehensible, yet musical in sound.
    For the first rows of text, i started "reading" the story in Italian and then translating into English (not "directly", i tried to think in English) , but after a few minutes, i stop translating, i just follow what my thoughts wants to express and go on with writing, researching good terms, good expressions of what dances in my mind directly in English. Think English, write English.

    And i was happy about what i had written. "Oh god, it is good!"

    Obviously, sometimes i think in Italian and then i try to think that thought in english (and i like when it sounds better).

    I do not think that Italian is usual or mundane, i see it as a very very rich language (i also perceive it as an exotic language) , good for all purposes, but as i explained before, i didnt feel it completely "right" for My purpose. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by jbgibson View Post
    That your command of the language is subtly "off" could maybe be made to work to your advantage. I think of speaker David Ring -- he has Cerebral Palsy and is extraordinarily difficult to understand. His speech is halting and slurred. Yet he is a compelling speaker - one hangs on his every word first because one HAS to, to decode his meaning, but then one is drawn in by what he has to say and how he says it. If it is somehow a part of your story, that the narrator perhaps is operating outside of his own mother tongue, a reader might accept a level of unusual expression, even be drawn in by it. I imagine the critical point there is that your storytelling, the ideas beneath the words, would have to be absolutely gripping. As another consideration, do not shy away from English translations of Italian expressions - those are going to be interesting to English readers just because they're not cliches to our ears.
    It is exactly what i think, for some "characters", and also for some expressions, my Italian nativity would help, and will characterize even more the writing. For example, an "foreign" character will speak different, for the accent, for the cadence, for the structure from a "common-speaker" character. I love those differences and customizations, they are natural.

    My own mind is obviously setted different from a English-speaker mind, and i will try to use it as an advantage.


    Quote Originally Posted by jbgibson View Post

    If you are going to write no matter what, AND you wish to gain skill in using the English language to do so, I imagine just going ahead and writing in English has to be a grand way to learn! If you accept that your first efforts will not chase Tolkien from the bookshelf, yet you have stories to tell that *must* somehow be expressed in English, then Go For It.
    And i will do it. I feel something inside my thoughts, that maybe is not very clear eheh :-D, but i feel it, and it gives me inspiration, and make me "dreaming" about what i want to write. I think That, for a writer\reader, "fly" with his thoughts beyond the words is THE most indescribable feeling from a book.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbgibson View Post
    It is a maxim worth mulling over, that before one can learn to creatively 'misuse' a skill, one must first master the proper use. I don't buy that 100%, but there's a core of truth there. I take all manner of liberties with English, and I fancy that my meaning is enhanced by the manner in which I write. But having read however many thousand books, hundreds and hundreds of authors, when I type something nonstandard, I'm shooting for a specific effect.
    I love this thought, and i completely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbgibson View Post
    Don't take anything I say as discouragement. There's incredible potential, huge possibility of unique value, in someone carrying out a passion outside his usual domain. A trumpeter is going to have an interesting take on playing the guitar. A weaver could perhaps devise a bridge to astound engineers. So you go right ahead and write !
    What you said is only further inspiration for me. Thank you very much.

    (I hope to find the time for writing more in the middle of this "Exams" war period.)
    Last edited by jamsus; 01-15-2011 at 06:39 AM.
    Even on the most exalted throne in the world we are only sitting on our own bottom.

  3. #3

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    Okay, in the middle of first exam war :p, i can paste here a little bit of a dialogue between characters :

    ***

    Before the dialogue part, there is a description of the magnificent Riverdale, then
    the chapter continue with...

    Witmore was so charmed by the mystic sight, thathe did not hear
    someone was approaching to the terrace.
    "After a while, you resist the enchantment," said a crystal, gentle
    voice of a woman.
    "Some spells do not deserve to be resisted, don't you think lady
    Dirian?"
    Witmore heard the moment of silence for the surprise, then
    turned. It was a breathtaking view also on that side. An elegant
    young girl, dressed in a dark green silk, that run down her
    perfect body holding her breast as if on an emerald altar,
    draped with copious brown curls, as her eyes. Really breathtaking.
    "Forgive my rudness, but I did not think that I presented before,
    sir..."
    "Sir Witmore of Connington. It's a pleasure to meet the beatiful
    daughter of lord Morgante," said Witmore, taking her hand to kiss.
    "I preferred when you have called me with my own name, sir
    Witmore. Don't you feel more unique when someone call your own
    name, ya?"
    That woman was playing superbly her ascendant.
    "To be honest, lady Dirian, what crazy man would think that a
    creature like you is not already unique by itself?"
    An instant of quiet, then a servant from the hallway announced that
    the dinner was ready, and she almost made to go, but Witmore was
    still standing, staring at her.
    "Is it allright sir?"
    "Oh sorry, lady Dirian, is still the effect of the spell. Go ahead, I
    follow."
    The daughter of the lord smiled and turned,
    "Ah, and do not forget," said Witmore a moment later, "i still
    need to be called by my own name, I haven't your precious gift."
    Witmore also felt himself an excellent player.


    Let me know (sorry for some grammar mistakes, but i dont care too much about them)

    critics on the structure\sense of phrases is what i'm looking for,
    negative & positive comments

    Thank you all, again
    Last edited by jamsus; 02-01-2011 at 08:00 AM.
    Even on the most exalted throne in the world we are only sitting on our own bottom.

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