OMG .... WOTC does it again

[Tancread]

No its not you, they are. 4.0 is junk. They made a system that is completely repugnant to the Role-Player.

I guess it is a matter of taste, I am an old school roleplayer, started in 1976 and the fourth edition is what has brought me back to D&D after a looong break. The rules are the best written D&D I have ever read. They still aren't great, I spend a lot of time trying to find where things are hidden, but they are much better than the white box or the first AD&D books. As for roleplaying I think that goes down to the DM and the players. The rules are just a way of keeping things organized, it is all down the ref and the players to tell their stories.

I have played three sessions of 4ed D&D and they have all been fine. There is a bit of miniatures game feel to the combat, but it moves quickly and is fun for everyone even at level one. A real achievement in my view. I certainly had more fun than the one session I tried of 3ed. The players in the 3ed game I was in were all about the rules, multi-classed Ninja/Woodchuck/Paladins with psionics that were mowing down all the poor DM could throw at them. If that is what people are missing from 3ed I can give it a miss. As I said, 4ed isn't perfect, the fact that they won't even sell you the bloody toy soldiers unless you buy them in random boxes is madness and even the new rules aren't easy for kids to pick up, but I am enjoying it and would describe our group of old fogies as pretty role play heavy.

As far as the electronic tools they seem to be vaporware so far, I think they got into a deeper pool than they thought they were getting into and are now trying to figure out what promises they can actually deliver on. I will happily give it a look when it comes out but I expect I will be puttering away at my maps just as I did in the seventies, only with much more expensive electronic markers than the old colored pens I used then.

[someguy]

I guess it is a matter of taste...

My big problem is that you made the characters even more cookie cutter. This fighter is just like that fighter over there. I hate cookie cutter game.

There is a bit of miniatures game feel to the combat, but it moves quickly and is fun for everyone even at level one. A real achievement in my view.

I took part in the World Wide Gameday WotC thew back in June. It felt like they made an MMO for the table top to me. And to make matters worse, they put the RPGA rules in the PHB.

I certainly had more fun than the one session I tried of 3ed. The players in the 3ed game I was in were all about the rules, multi-classed Ninja / woodchuck / Paladins with psionics that were mowing down all the poor DM could throw at them.

That's the GM's fault for letting munchkins run wild on him. I don't invite rules lawyers, munchkins, or hack masters back to my game table, they just aren't my cup of tea.

I'm there to have fun and players like tht rob the game if it.

Whats missing in 4th isn't whats missed, its what they added. All those shades of gray. PC Demons and Dragons? Giving a wild card ability to any race other than Human? What was WotC thinking?

As far as the electronic tools they seem to be vaporware so far, I think they got into a deeper pool than they thought they were getting into and are now trying to figure out what promises they can actually deliver on. I will happily give it a look when it comes out, but I expect I will be puttering away at my maps just as I did in the seventies; only with much more expensive electronic markers than the old colored pens I used then.

I take everything WotC says with a grain of salt. They have a bad habit of making promises they can't keep. Like the $19.95 game books promise they only upheld for a think a year.

Then there was e-tools.

[The Cartographist]

someguy - I own the core books...haven't played yet, but I've done a lot of reading. For the most part, all things considered, I like the new game.

Anyway, some things you said confuse me:

"...made the characters even more cookie cutter..." and "...its what they added. All those shades of gray."

I see those two statements as diametrically opposed. I mean, how can one complain of cookie-cutterishness and then turn around and complain of too many shades of gray?

Now, you are COMPLETELY entitled to believe that "4.0 is junk." I am just curious to know why...

[GlennZilla]

I find that the selection powers in a class increases the variety of characters. It's easy to grab a few illusions or several (When we get several) to control the type of wizard the character becomes. There's no need to multiclass into another caster class as it's already available as a progression of powers.

The streamlined rules make the game WAY faster at our table. It's also easier for me to prep each game as well as improvise at the table. This makes our gaming much more enjoyable. Ultimately that's all I wanted.

[someguy]

...some things you said confuse me:

"...made the characters even more cookie cutter..." and "...its what they added. All those shades of gray."

I see those two statements as diametrically opposed. I mean, how can one complain of cookie-cutterishness...

System wise, how many ways can you build a class? If its less then 10 its cookie cutter. With out varying the race, I found only three or four ways under the new system. Race doesn't count because you will have those tricks no mater what class you take.

I had the PHB for several weeks, but it was just to limiting in character build.
the chances of having an identical character at a small game day is vastly higher with this system.

and then turn around and complain of too many shades of gray?

As for shades of gray.

My son at the game day bought the PHB, after thumbing though it he returned it. His reason was that he wasn't going to play a game where a demon what a standard race.

Where have all the hero's gone? They have been replaced with demons!

In all the history of D&D you have never had a Demon in the PHB, Let alone as a PC race. Its bad enough that they were an option in 3rd, but now to legitimize the morally depraved in the PHB?

No, the system is too cookie cutter, and the setting is morally depraved.

This is the last bit of time I will waist on this subject.

[loogie]

i have to say, i am in no way a fan of dnd, and tho that is where my rp experience started, i moved away and never looked back... until now, all this new talk has me very interested, and i will be fore sure borrowing some books to see how its played.

[torstan]

Yep, it's actually going pretty well so far. I'll be interested to see how the supplements go as they expand the game, but at least they've started off with a solid core game.

[Valarian]

On a slight tangent ... Dragon Warriors, the original d20 system, is back. Mongoose have released the core rulebook under their Flaming Cobra line, and there's a Bestiary due out soon.

[NeonKnight]

Yeah Torstan has pretty much hit it on the head.

The DM's Table is supposed to be a representation of a Minis on a Table. My Battle map is flat 2-D but my minis are 3D as is some of the additional stuff (chests, pillars, etc).

Do I think I would use it? Myself, no, as I play in person with a bunch of friends. Would I use it otherwise? Hard to say.

[jfrazierjr]

And now for the Good news, WotC released it's Character Builder to Beta today. In other news, it does not work on Mac, Linux, oh yea and Vista 64 bit!