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Thread: On hadron colliders, dark matter and black holes

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    Community Leader Facebook Connected torstan's Avatar
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    Oops, cross-post. Sorry RP.

    There are lots of things we hope to learn from this.

    1. We expect to understand the origin of mass by finding a particle called the Higgs boson.
    2. I personally want to know what dark matter is. There's 5 times more dark matter in the universe than atoms, molecules and all the other stuff we've been studying ever since we started asking questions. We foun out it was there only a few decades ago and there are good reasons to believe that the LHC will be able to produce it from scratch. That would be the first time ever that dark matter was created in the lab on earth. Incidentally, dark matter was the basis for 'dust' in the Dark Materials trilogy (though there's really no basis for thinking it is conscious )
    3. The LHC will test theories that differ on the number of dimensions we live in - the four we know about (3 space dimensions and one time or N/S, E/W and your heightmap for cartographers) or whether there are another 6 or even seven, and whether they are small or large.
    4. It may start to shed light on how the universe began and how it may end, and also whether there are other universes.

    These are ordered in degrees of speculation. The first we should definitely answer. The last is highly unlikely to be any more than a hint, if we get that much.

    But of course, this doesn't answer your question. Neither of those things is likely to immediately lead to any new technologies that will improve your life. Technologies tend to come when we put research into a field where the theory is already known. Fusion has been understood theoretically for about 60 years, but we'll only get our first working fusion plant in 15 years or so. However the theoretical understanding of fusion came from particle physics experiments - and no-one knew when they started those experiments that fusion might come out the other end. The purpose of these experiments is to find out how the universe works. When we peel back another layer, sometimes we find something that can be turned to our own use, sometimes we don't. The point is that in particle physics, unlike many other sciences, we don't know the underlying theory until we look, so we can't say what use the discoveries may have until they have been made.

    That said, the field has a pretty good track record. The straightforward results of the work are things like lasers, tvs, radiotherapy and so on. None of these would exist if we had not researched atomic and subatomic physics.

    However more important perhaps are the spin off technologies. The LHC has funneled a huge amount of money into brand new research into superconductors, electronics, seismology, solid state physics and (of course) IT. All of the developments that have been made for the collider will be applied in the rest of the world. Without the collider, much of this research could not be done because it would be way too risky for a company to invest that amount of its own capital into R&D that may not work.

    Past examples of spin offs are everywhere, but the most obvious is the Web. That was put in place so that the data from the previous collider at CERN could be shared between the international collaboration of scientists working on this. The LHC has a similar challenge - there will be more data produced than ever before and a computer infrastructure needs to be set up to deal with it, and to handle the processing tasks on this data sample. That requires a supercomputer and we've built something called the Grid (yes, we're no good at names) - a supercomputer that spans the globe that consists of networked computers in universities in countries on every continent. You can submit a job to the Grid and it will use the processing power of computers right across the Grid to do the job. It's the largest distributed computer resource in the world and will eventually be made available to everyone, just like the internet.

    Hope that answers that question! Wow, that got a little longer than intended....

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    Community Leader NeonKnight's Avatar
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    Oooooooo Noooooooooz! Torstan is going to be responsible for creating The Mist in Geneva!

    Ooooooo Noooooz!
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    Community Leader Facebook Connected torstan's Avatar
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    @jfrazierjr - This won't give us any energy. Rather we pump energy in to get the particles up to speed and then study the results after they collide. It's like pumping a load of petrol into two trucks, watching the fireball when they collide and then measuring how far the bumper went.

    @RP - the protons will collide in a vacuum - the center of the pipe is as empty as the engineers can get it to reduce the chance of them accidentally hitting something other than the proton that is coming the other way. Therefore the collision itself is almost identical to a collision in outer space. In fact, at the atomic scale, even gas is mostly empty, so it's functionally the same as collisions in the atmosphere too, which is where the cosmic ray interactions happen. What happens to the debris afterwards - when it flies off and hits the solid bit, the detectors, is essentially just garbage collection. We pick up the bits and see what happened. So the detector doesn't influence the collision itself. In this way, the collision should be as identical to a collision that occurs outside a detector as possible. Otherwise all we'd be studying was how physics works inside a detector - which wouldn't really help us to understand the wider world

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    Community Leader Facebook Connected torstan's Avatar
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    Anyone read Angels and Demons? I'll support any conspiracy theory that says CERN should have a space plane. That would be cool.

    (yes - they have antimatter, no - they could never use it to blow up the Vatican)

    @Neon -The Mist? How did you hear about that. That's strictly..... definitely not something I've heard about....

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    Community Leader Facebook Connected torstan's Avatar
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    Well, at least Skynet would run linux (yep - Grid runs linux).

    Incidentally there's another collider reference - last terminator had one I think....

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    Community Leader NeonKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torstan View Post
    @Neon -The Mist? How did you hear about that. That's strictly..... definitely not something I've heard about....
    When you started talking other dimensions.

    OK, I know of the standard 4: length, height, width and time (basicially the previous 3, as in I am the same entity as I was last year but I appear different in the most basic of laymans' terms.)

    The 5th dimension and upwards have been theorized as other realities that over lay our own but we just are not in sync with them. This of course then gets into the whole paranormal aspect of that is where the monsters and ghosts and UFOs and what not comefrom.


    ******WARNING SPOILER INFO BELOW******

    In the Steven King novella/and movie The Mist a Military installation was able to open a portal to another dimension and of course that was were all the baddies came from. So, when you mentioned the collider could be used to study the existence of other dimensions beyound the 4 known....
    Daniel the Neon Knight: Campaign Cartographer User

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    Not having read Mist (or seen the resulting film), I just assumed Torstan was going to give us a map of the array so that others might be able to game out a scenario in which the unpredicted results of these experiments causes tiny tears into extradimensional space, allowing the unspeakable horrors that live beyond our consciousness to slowly leak into our world, which is slowly torn assunder by the unknowable forces at their disposal until, eventually, the entire planet is a ravaged, desiccated husk wherein all of humanity has been consumed by the otherwordly things except those scientists and sundry others still holed up at the CERN facility which, ironically, is the only surviving bastion of life and civilization.

    Those last few survivors would be fighting for their lives, struggling to find a way to reverse the flow of extradimensional energy and parasitic intelligence.

    I have not played Call of Cthulhu, but it might be best for this game.

    I had hoped to include this all in one (maddening) sentence, but, alas, I failed.

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    Community Leader RPMiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torstan View Post
    @jfrazierjr - This won't give us any energy. Rather we pump energy in to get the particles up to speed and then study the results after they collide. It's like pumping a load of petrol into two trucks, watching the fireball when they collide and then measuring how far the bumper went.

    @RP - the protons will collide in a vacuum - the center of the pipe is as empty as the engineers can get it to reduce the chance of them accidentally hitting something other than the proton that is coming the other way. Therefore the collision itself is almost identical to a collision in outer space. In fact, at the atomic scale, even gas is mostly empty, so it's functionally the same as collisions in the atmosphere too, which is where the cosmic ray interactions happen. What happens to the debris afterwards - when it flies off and hits the solid bit, the detectors, is essentially just garbage collection. We pick up the bits and see what happened. So the detector doesn't influence the collision itself. In this way, the collision should be as identical to a collision that occurs outside a detector as possible. Otherwise all we'd be studying was how physics works inside a detector - which wouldn't really help us to understand the wider world
    Interesting. I'll be very intrigued to hear about the data collection and the results there of.

    Have they given any percentages on chance of success for the whole experiment?
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  9. #9
    Community Leader Facebook Connected torstan's Avatar
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    @RPMiller: There's no real chance of the machine 'failing' as such. The Standard Model of particle physics predicts that there is a Higgs boson. If it finds it, Peter Higgs gets a Nobel along worth the experimentalists that find it. If there is no Higgs found, then the entire Model has been disproved - which would be a major result as it would mean that one of the best tested theories ever constructed would be disproved. Finally it could (and is widely expected to) produce a whole world of new matter that we've never seen before, in which case it is champagne all round and a lot of work for me.

    The way it could fail is to not actually produce collisions of the energy required, at the rate we need. That would be an engineering failure and is possible, though, we hope, very unlikely. Nevertheless, the collider is scheduled to run for 10 years at least, so even if it doesn't work as expected when it starts, it should be fixed soon enough in that 10 year window. We'll have to wait and see what first runs this summer produce to know how well the machinery is working. Something this large, complex and unwieldy is guarranteed to have teething trouble when they flick the on switch. The question is how serious the problems are and whether they can be fixed before the first physics run next spring (it turns off during the winter because electricity is too expensive and the experimentalists need downtime to tinker).

    @Neonknight - There are many theories with extra dimensions, all of which differ on their nature. Every one of them has a good reason why we haven't seen them yet. These generally fall into one of two categories - either atoms can't move in them, but more exotic matter such as gravitons (a hypothetical particle that transmits gravity) does. Or they are very small and circular. By circular I mean that if you travel far enough in that dimension you get back to where you started - like in the Meteors! or Maelstrom games where if you fly off the right of the screen you come back on the left. In the case of these dimensions, the width of the screen is of an atomic scale, so you would never notice the process of moving across it and coming back to where you started.

    There are theories with other universes that are separated from us because of the way space-time might split in quantum mechanics (ala quantum leap and parallel universes) but that is a different use of the word 'dimension'.

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    Community Leader Facebook Connected torstan's Avatar
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    @ toff: nprb

    @ Karro: Now that there is a top plan for at Cthulhu game... Hmmm, sounds like a fun start to an adventure.

    @RPMiller: Forgot to mention, I looked it up. The expected data output is around 15 petabytes a year. That will be written to tape on site and simultaneously sent out to two or three other storage facilities around the world to avoid problems from data corruption, or say a fire. Each of those will be accessible from the Grid.

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