To Grid or Not to Grid that is the problem! (AND your little furniture too) :)

[Forkbeard]

And if the grid is hinted to in the drawing of the rooms instead of being explicit lines, for instance a chequerboard pattern of tiles, then what?

Aside: What is "VTT", I'm asuming a file type meaning something along the lines of virtual terrain tools or similar, and follow up, what programs use them?

Yes, I've noticed the use of tiles to create a grid, but 5' square tiles?!?

I'm creating only fantasy old world maps, so tiles are waney/displaced, cracked and usually quite small, so my unnatural grid tends to work well. Although I have my VTT switch the grid off when not in strict turn based movement. Plus, hexes are not something you see in the ancient world.

VTT is a virtual table top, in other words a piece of software that controls the panning, zooming and layering of the component images for gaming. There are a number of products out there, with varying degrees of control and added game rules too.

[Gamerprinter]

And if the grid is hinted to in the drawing of the rooms instead of being explicit lines, for instance a chequerboard pattern of tiles, then what?

Aside: What is "VTT", I'm asuming a file type meaning something along the lines of virtual terrain tools or similar, and follow up, what programs use them?

VTT are virtual tabletop applications, software that lets you either create a map using built-in paint tools, or import maps created in other software that can have grids placed on them, fog of war - which is the ability to hide areas that cannot be seen from PCs exist on the map (areas hidden by obstructions like walls, trees, hole, etc), objects, PCs and NPCs are on separate layers allowing you to play RPGs online with a shared map and use of Skype or messaging software so that GMs can speak with players, or players can speak between each other. Its a way to run a tabletop game with GM and players using internet connected computers to share the visual and play experience in separate locations - even playing with people across the globe. MapTools, Fantasy Grounds, Battlegrounds, Roll20 are all examples of VTT applications.

[Gamerprinter]

I really love that layering you're doing. I'm new to map making, and even though a basic water effect can be created quickly, and looks great, I like the idea of feeling that depth. I wondered about doing this to show the deeper areas of a pool.

I have a Quick & Dirty Map Tutorial in the tutorials forum, on using my techniques to create depth in water effects.

Here is a map that I created long ago, using this water depth effect technique called Ryukyo or Sea Dragon City - it is a mapped location from my published Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG).

[SentinelaBell]

very nice information!

[Forkbeard]

I have a Quick & Dirty Map Tutorial in the tutorials forum, on using my techniques to create depth in water effects.

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

Many many thanks for the tutorial link. I will be working through that soon.

Do you sell your maps in electronic form?

[wdmartin]

VTT = Virtual Table Top. A program to display maps and the position of players (as tokens) to players who are not located in the same room as one another. For example, in one campaign I'm running, the soloist player lives in Seattle, whereas I live a thousand miles away from there, but we can both see who's where and who's doing what. Here's a screenshot of my current Maptool configuration:



Here Verdessa faces off against a Stegosaurus. The grid has been turned on for this screenshot, and the map is one I just made. The grid can be turned on and off, but in a VTT like this, it's usually not strictly necessary, because the program handles calculating movement distances and things for you. You just need to drag your token as far as you want to move it.

I'm also using hl2mt to convert Hero Lab portfolio files into Maptool tokens with built-in buttons for most of the common Pathfinder things: their saves, attack rolls with their weapons, skill checks, descriptions of feats and spells, and so on.

I think what I've realised is that VTTs either aren't being used, because folks print out their maps, or VTTs are not very advanced.

Printing out maps only works if you're meeting in person. If you want to game with your friend in another state (or country!), printed maps are useless because they're not present to see them.

As for whether or not they're getting used, check out Roll20. They've got hundreds of thousands of gamers using their software. And there are lots of others out there. I use Maptool, one of the older ones. It's a bit crufty at the edges due to its age, and development appears to have more or less ground to a halt, but it does everything I need it to do.

The conclusion I'm coming to, is that the VTT really needs to replace, or interact directly with, the painting software as much as possible

I disagree, for these reasons.

1) On Objects. If absolutely everything is an object that can be manipulated, you're making a TON more work for yourself. Not only will it take ages and ages to make a map -- put in the table, put plates on the table, put silverware on the table, put food on the plates, put cups on the table, put drink in the cups, put a candle on the table, light the candle -- you're also making more work when stuff changes. Do you really want to stop gaming and spend 15 minutes scattering the silverware across the floor when Bob the Fighter kicks that table over? Or, alternately, write the VTT to do that for you? But then, you've invested a ton of time in writing a feature into the VTT that could have been spent on things more important than strewn silverware. Besides, the sheer variety of things that might happen in the course of a session means that in order to handle even the majority of them, you'll wind up having to write code that simulates everything in existence.

Better to only make manipulable those things that have a significant in-game effect. For example, it matters whether or not a door is open or closed. If it's closed it might be locked. If it's open people can see through it. And so on. So lots of people leave doors off their maps and stick those in using the VTT.

2) On Lighting. Most good VTTs already have dynamic lighting systems in place. For example, Roll20 does. And so does Maptool. I haven't personally tried others, but handling vision and lighting is pretty common.

3) On Performance. The more stuff you put into a map, the more demanding it will be to run. Each new image asset needs to be downloaded, and parsed, and rendered, updates sent to the players, and so on. You can of course make maps with tons of objects in them; but be prepared to take a performance hit when you do.

4) On Imagination. This is a bit squishier and more subject to personal preference. But it seems to me that role playing games are, fundamentally, an exercise in imagination. I enjoy making realistic maps, because they add a lot of ambiance. But I do not need them to perfectly reflect the state of the game world in every particular. When Bob the Fighter kicks over that table, I can use picture the silverware flying, the drinks crashing and spilling to the floor, the candle rolling towards a tapestry; I don't need the map to show that. It's perfectly fine (and much easier!) to just let it happen inside the player's heads.

[Forkbeard]

Printing out maps only works if you're meeting in person. If you want to game with your friend in another state (or country!), printed maps are useless because they're not present to see them.

Agreed, although many years ago, before using a VTT I have used printed maps.

As for whether or not they're getting used, check out Roll20.

I've tried Roll20, but I'm not keen. A few irritating interface issues.

I wrote my own, having tried a couple of others a few years back. Battlegrounds was one of them.

Plus I have my own rules which doesn't fit into simplistic D&D like systems.

1. But then, you've invested a ton of time in writing a feature into the VTT that could have been spent on things more important than strewn silverware.

As a feature of the VTT it's no different from any other layering. Just drag and drop. It's about the flexibility. Once created, why hardwire say a knife into a table? If you created the object in a paint program, you could have easily done the exact same thing in a VTT. There is no time difference. Smart objects (if a VTT is well made), you could reuse. So if you do want to save time by having a table hardwired, then drag and drop the hardwired version, but have that hardwiring handled by the VTT, and not the paint program.

Besides, the sheer variety of things that might happen in the course of a session means that in order to handle even the majority of them, you'll wind up having to write code that simulates everything in existence.

Trying to handle everything, is hardly the same as layering a few objects for flexibility

Better to only make manipulable those things that have a significant in-game effect. For example, it matters whether or not a door is open or closed. If it's closed it might be locked. If it's open people can see through it. And so on. So lots of people leave doors off their maps and stick those in using the VTT.

Agreed. A VTT needs open and closed doors.

My point is that you had to drag and drop the objects in the paint program, so dragging and dropping them in the VTT is no different, EXCEPT the huge flexibility gain in the latter.

2) On Lighting. Most good VTTs already have dynamic lighting systems in place. For example, Roll20 does. And so does Maptool. I haven't personally tried others, but handling vision and lighting is pretty common.

I've seen some. Not sure how they handle it, as maps are 2D in the marketplace. I'm assuming a 3D polygon layer for ray-tracing, combined with the placement of specific light-source intensities. That's how I'd do.

3) On Performance. The more stuff you put into a map, the more demanding it will be to run. Each new image asset needs to be downloaded, and parsed, and rendered, updates sent to the players, and so on. You can of course make maps with tons of objects in them; but be prepared to take a performance hit when you do.

I've noticed huge lags in the VTTs in this respect. In mine, I make use of background workflow, caching (both scaled and rotational), and clipping. I also use insignificance rules for distance, that are configurable.

4) On Imagination. This is a bit squishier and more subject to personal preference. But it seems to me that role playing games are, fundamentally, an exercise in imagination.

They are indeed. However we all remember (or those of us who are old enough) the move from graph paper to figures, and then to floorplans, and printed maps. The Move to VTTs is no different.

It's all about the law of diminishing returns vs the fun of producing the tools we use. Figure painting went from a 3 hour operation to a multi-day affair, with paint layering, the use of oils, not to mention the use of a Dremel to individualise the pieces Takes me back.

I enjoy making realistic maps, because they add a lot of ambiance. But I do not need them to perfectly reflect the state of the game world in every particular.

Everyone has their limits, but again, if we can provide "features" that cost no extra time but offer flexibility then I see no reason to exclude them. As I've said though, the feature of layering is a deal-breaker in all VTTs, so it's not a special extra feature, like say height maps for water.

When Bob the Fighter kicks over that table, I can use picture the silverware flying, the drinks crashing and spilling to the floor, the candle rolling towards a tapestry; I don't need the map to show that. It's perfectly fine (and much easier!) to just let it happen inside the player's heads.

I don't use a picture, I'd just describe it, but 3 days later, I have no clue where everything is It takes a second to move an object and the VTT remembers it for me. Seems like a useful feature, and one that needs to be there so I can move the character figures anyway

Conclusion...
a. VTTs have to offer layering.
b. Paint programs use layering anyway. Chances are that knife we created to sit on the table, is already on its own layer.
c. Those layers could be offered as individual objects without any difference in time to create.
d. The VTT could easily bundle a collection of objects and retain that configuration for ease of use, i.e. a table with mugs of ale on it (but still provide the flexibility for me to move the mugs should I wish)

In short no extra time and a heap more flexibility. Even the additional smart-object logic in the VTT is trivial to write

[Gamerprinter]

I think MapTools has layering to a degree. I think most have a ground or floor layer, then a wall/structure/object layer, and possibly a token layer for PCs, NPCs and monsters.

Regarding lighting, many VTT, including MapTool feature something called Fog of War. You make selections on the map and give them the properties as objects with height. Then the visual range of players are limited to what the obstructing objects (walls, trees, boulders, structures) block the view hiding what is behind it. On the GM's map, all can be seen, but from the players map, view is limited.

While I've played around with VTT applications, I generally don't need them myself, since I play a live game at a table with the same players for almost 2 decades now (some of the players for longer than that). I also run a digital print shop capable of printing large format, high resolution maps and color copy (letter, tabloid sized) printing.

[wdmartin]

Yes, Gamerprinter is right -- Maptool does have layering, though fairly limited compared to Photoshop, or Gimp, or similar. Specifically, it defines the following layers:

• Token - containing player and monster tokens
• Hidden - containing stuff that only the GM can see (notes, objects that need to be initially invisible)
• Object - manipulable assets like doors
• Background - the background

I'll readily admit that there's no particular time difference between sticking objects on the table in Photoshop versus doing it in the VTT. It'd be pretty much the same procedure -- select the asset, drop it in, position it. Sure.

The time difference comes during play. Moving one knife off that table is a matter of a few clicks. But if the whole table gets kicked over, that's not just one knife. If it's set four 4 people, it'll likely have 4 cups, 4 plates, 4 knives, 4 forks, 3-4 serving dishes, salt and pepper shakers, a candle or two, maybe placemats if it's nicer than the stereotypical adventurer bar. All in the own separate layers, all requiring a few seconds to move. Those seconds really add up, and every one of them would be time spent on detail that doesn't matter much, and taken away from players doing things.

I don't mind spending time on prep.

[Gamerprinter]

I do have a small amount of maps and map objects sets being sold on DTRPG, but it is currently limited to 3 products. Once I get the bulk of my map tutorial books writing done, I will be releasing more map object sets, map sets, and other products over the course of the year. I operate under Gamer Printshop as my publisher name. You can visit my product page here.