Too much of the same stereotype?... Fantasy or imagination?

[Pixie]

This thread might just be being annoying (or annoyed), but I would really like to hear from the guild members, particularly the great artists in here who do commissions. Specially those who end up drawing the stereotypical elements that seem to occur in every fantasy mapping.

The question is how to balance the canon of fantasy maps with the need to be original and fresh. A tributary question to this one is how to balance geographically believable landforms with the typical fantasy elements, but I would prefer to set that aside for now... so sticking with the first one, here's some elements that turn up every 8 out of 10 maps or so:

- a linear ridge separating two kingdoms or a kingdom and "the wastes"
- a single, well known, pass in that ridge, 95% of the times with a castle/tower in it
- the furlorn tower or ruined castle
- a maelstrom in the sea
- a neverending mountainrange in one of the ends of the map (more often than not, the north)
- there's always a desert somewhere, and ice somewhere...

How often to do you see these ones (or others that I forgot to mention)? Do you tire of drawing the same elements over and over? Not as the artist, but as a member of the public, do you get bored with the repetition of elements?

In my opinion, there's a certain canon to be respected, but in so many occasions, the canon is followed to the point where the map is of the "fantasy" genre, but there is no "fantasy" in terms of imagination by the author. Anyway, without bashing particular maps or the average teenage enthusiast, ... is anyone interested in debating this?

[jbgibson]

While agreeing there are tired, un-novel implementations, I'd say there's always room for nice or novel *recombinations*. Your post uses the same old 26 letters, yet it has a message that hasn't been expressed the same way. A message that's a worthy caution, but....

There once was a group of bluegrass musicians. It was a motley group, as often assemble - seasoned masters, young hotshots, earnest noobs. As is their way, the lead passed back and forth, each player starting a piece he particularly liked. Others joined each tune - one can always chord along in the background. Finally someone turned to the rankest noob, with "John, how about you suggest one?" John gulped, both honored and terrified. He p a u s e d, and finally suggested the one piece he sorta knew well- "Orange Blossom Special? Only you guys actually lead."

Two of the 20-something hotshots rolled their eyes, and the 19-year-old contest-winning fiddler snorted "That old saw!?" The newbie started to wither, but the 75-year old legend spoke up. "Son," he said (addressing Mr State Fiddler Champion), "if ya can't hear nothin new in an old tune, ya ain't half tryin". Whereupon he got the eye of the new guy, took the "go ahead" nod, and launched into a half-speed Orange Blossom, rolling that train right along with room for John to hitch on.


The orange blossom special really is overdone, but it's a tune that draws some players into playing - they want to sound like *that* and have *that* kind of fun. And if you've listened to a good jam session, you may have realized Every Round Is Different. Sure, some are jaw-dropping amazing, and some are more background, but all sorts can be good music.

[Pixie]

You are absolutely right on your comment, jbgibson.

However, I did say "without bashing particular maps or the average teenage enthusiast" - your rankest noob, John, being the teenage enthusiast, of course. Now, to protect and encourage young enthusiasts is all very well, and as a teacher myself, I whole-heartedly agree with you, be sure of that.

My point isn't against noob John. Still using your metaphor, I think I am asking the 75-year old what is it that still, and always, sounds fresh when he plays the Orange Bloom.

[Chick]

I think a lot of the things in your list (ridges separating kingdoms, tower in the pass, ruined castles, storms in the sea, mountains at the ends/edges of the map, deserts and ice) are in fantasy maps because that's how they are in the real world.

Ridges and mountain ranges and rivers do separate kingdoms, countries, states, and counties because they are natural boundaries, often hard to cross and easy to defend. Towers are in passes because those passes need to be defended. Ruined castles abound, just go visit Europe to see that. Mountains and seas are natural boundaries, and so are natural places to end a map. Deserts and ice and forests occur all over the world, so why not in fantasy worlds as well.

I see nothing tedious or unimaginative about any of this The imagination comes in with how you arrange them

[Sarithus]

You might enjoy this map I made.

[Freodin]

I think a lot of the things in your list (ridges separating kingdoms, tower in the pass, ruined castles, storms in the sea, mountains at the ends/edges of the map, deserts and ice) are in fantasy maps because that's how they are in the real world.

Ridges and mountain ranges and rivers do separate kingdoms, countries, states, and counties because they are natural boundaries, often hard to cross and easy to defend. Towers are in passes because those passes need to be defended. Ruined castles abound, just go visit Europe to see that. Mountains and seas are natural boundaries, and so are natural places to end a map. Deserts and ice and forests occur all over the world, so why not in fantasy worlds as well.

I see nothing tedious or unimaginative about any of this The imagination comes in with how you arrange them

Oh, I don't know.

After all, we are talking about "fantasy" maps and literature here. Rivers and mountains and fortresses might be completely unimportant, if you have a world without surface water, a population of bird-people or perhaps even intelligent clouds living on a gas-giant.

Realism be damned.

The problem is writing about worlds without surface water, bird-people or intelligent clouds and still keep your story relevant for us human readers. We like to be told stories that we can relate to, set in worlds that we can imagine, populated by people that we can identify with.

If you can pull that off... you can also make maps based on wind and sand.

[Midgardsormr]

I seem to recall we had a conversation a while back about the "right justified continent."

Another popular one is the presence of a forest with a name following the pattern "Synonym of darkness-synonym of forest." Some authors/cartographers are at least savvy enough to put that forest's name in a fictional language, like Daerish Swar in the Wheel of Time, but they're still just variants of Mirkwood.



Btw, Sarithus, I love "A Dark Tower." Makes me chuckle every time.

[J.Edward]

One thing I do that, I hope, leads to some differences form the 'norm' is to just develop the land as I go and in some ways allow the story to follow it.
There are of course main over arching themes/people/places that must be figured in but on a continent or planet scale much of it is not truly worked out completely so the land can form and stories can come from the land; its shape, contours. And that can inform names and places as well.
Depending on the map style one is using it can be easier or harder to do.
With the traditional style fantasy map many will tend to look very similar, and consequently feel very similar.

All that is new is merely novelty. Twists on themes. We're all really playing at myth and legend. Whether we achieve it has a lot to do with skill and novelty I think.

Another note - for all the eye-rolling and head nodding about 'standard' fantasy themes/tropes, if you deviate too much from those things people tend not to like or identify with your work. Just look at the lack of success of Jorune or Talislanta. I loved both of those because they were quite unusual. Others apparently didn't, and they did not succeed like the ever-stale DnD realms. Sometimes you must play to the herd... or walk a lone path for a long time.

[johnvanvliet]

seeing as i only like a very few fantasy books ( very few )

and tend to the hard Sci-fi

what strikes me is the tendency to use the 1950's "pulp" book / magazine simple styles

i really could care less or more if there are

- a linear ridge separating two kingdoms or a kingdom and "the wastes"
- a single, well known, pass in that ridge, 95% of the times with a castle/tower in it
- the furlorn tower or ruined castle
- a maelstrom in the sea
- a neverending mountainrange in one of the ends of the map (more often than not, the north)
- there's always a desert somewhere, and ice somewhere...

as long as the map is well done

just an opinion but i was always partial to the map stiles from the 1200's to 1700's European maps

or for a fantasy maps
some GREAT examples are the medieval Japanese and Chinese maps
-- these are works of ART in there own rights

[Pixie]

Your map illustrates my point Sarithus! It is exactly my point. The thing is that all those clichés, as every cliché, are overused.

@ chick: while I do agree with you that a lot of the elements of a fantasy map are possible to find (in one way or another) on a real location, my point is that they don't always need to occur simultaneously in every map. To cleverly arrange them is, in my opinion, choosing not to use some or not to use most. If you map England, you won't find an impassable mountain range, if you map Greece you won't find storming seas, if you map Cuba, you won't find lands of eternal ice (etc.. I tend to use more examples than needed).

I think Freodin raised a good point. That fantasy mapping needs to be looked at with fantasy writing. And while you can sort of imagine your stories just by looking at some of the maps in here, others are such a mess of overused elements that they don't spark your imagination.

However (seems like I am summing up everyone's points in this post...), it's true that members in this guild see too many maps and we are, thus, overexposed to, the same elements. Most people, including the occasional lurker or the DnD enthusiast who just stumbled across this site, will not feel the same reaction, surely.
... And if you don't add a forest with name-your-evil-creature-for-PC's-to-encounter-and-kill-for-XP lairs, it's a useless map in the Dnd perspective.
... And if you don't add eternal ice or a land with dragons, it won't fill your nerver-satisfied-craving-for-more-things-game-of-thrones.
... and other examples...
Which, are, also, the purpose of so many fantasy maps, which don't really have an imaginative story behind them, and will never have.

Still, while I agree with all this, too many of the same repetitive elements put me off - they do, and that's it.