Fictional culture and technology

[Karro]

Okay, the focus has been on technology and religion. What about magic?

In any high fantasy environment, where magic is fairly common and out in the open, there will be a cultural impact. A culture will form dependencies on magic that will inhibit technological advancement. For example, why bother producing a washing machine when you can conjure water elementals to do it for you. Or, why produce gunpowder when your elite guard can be outfitted with magical crossbow bolts that do far more damage. Obviously there will be some technology, as the economic trade-off between magic supply and raw muscle power balances out. There will be items that we may consider "technological" that would be powered by magical means.

Edit: I think there was a castle toilet thread somewhere around here that started down magical waste disposal for a while.

Well, this certainly adds a level of complexity to any cultural analysis, that's for sure. My high-level thoughts on the issue of magic are that the impact of magic on these items are correlated to the level of magic within a setting. While that sounds somewhat obvious, it breaks down like this, with respect to the earlier emphasis on the mystery and outlook on the world: a world with low magic might have the effect of increasing the mystery in the world, insofar as rare magic is likely more misunderstood and, well, mysterious to the majority of people. Thus, whenever something is unknown or unexplained, it will garner a magical explanation, even when there is actually a rational or non-magical one. Further, where there is real magic, it is likely to be held in fear and awe, as something unknown and conceptually powerful. In such a world, much as in our own, real technological solutions will eventually develop. The question as to whether it will rival magic as a means to solving problems depends in part on how rare as well as how powerful that magic is, and whether further study and exploration of magic will make it either increasingly common or more powerful over time. Such a world could become less magical and more technological over time, or it could become more magical over time.

Conversely, if magic is relatively common in a world, this could easily lead to a situation where mystery and fear of the unknown are reduced to a greater degree. In this case, the "magical" explanation probably is the real and rational explanation for an unknown phenomenon, and there are likely decreasingly few phenomena that lack a thorough understanding and magical explanation. Ordinary people will increasingly look upon magic, or at least upon the results of the use of magic, as mundane, possibly even beneath notice, even if they continue to regard the practitioners of magic with a sense of mystery, respect or skepticism.

Essentially, these views on magic are corollary to Clark's Third Law (wrt sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic, and Niven's corollary being any sufficiently advanced magic being indistinguishable from technology). Of course, this is only one possible interpretation of the prevalence of magic in a world and the effect it will have on the outlook of that world's inhabitants on their environment.

Had a bit of a dig around online, and this is the main site I was thinking of which goes into various considerations with world building, also of possible interest is this site which lists important questions to consider.

As for sister site, not sure if thats the correct term, but I was refering to the others in the Fantaseum Alliance, specifically the Campaign Builders Guild

Thanks for the links! I will have to check them out as time permits!

[Jkaen]

I think with regards the original "could there be a haunted woods next to my city" question it depends on outside pressures, if its monstered up enough that peasants cant jsut wander round and map it up then an official foray would have to be made into it, if no danger came out of it, and there were negihbouring countries on the borders that warranted more attnetion for the military they may not get round it it.


With regards magic, bear in mind those in the woods may well have access to high magic too (thinking of the standard wood elf illusion approach here)

[torstan]

I guess the most important forms of magic to consider in this context are divinations. If you can cast commune and ask a deity "Are those woods haunted" and have the deity say "No" then mystery disappears pretty fast. Equally, divination magic of this form would screw up technological innvation a bit. Imagine a rather advanced technopriest casting divination "What's the relation between energy and matter?" and his god replying "E=mc^2". That gets rid of all mystery in the world. I'd make sure that such magic tools are sharply limited.

The second thing to do is consider forms of magic that mimic real world technologies. These will have an impact on your world that are predictable. Common use of Sending mimics the invention of the telephone and allows for instant communication between dispersed troops - which is very important in any warlike fantasy setting. Rock-to-mud mimics real world sappers - making fortifications very vulnerable. You'd expect the fortress builders of the world to spend the money to counter these sort of attacks. Fly allows for the equivalent of airborne spotter planes and also bombers. These appeared in the first and second world wars. Fireball mimics artillery and will mean that no fortress will have exposed battlements any more - fortresses will have overhead cover as well. Those are a few examples, but in most cases the magic proposed in fantasy settings mimic some technological advance we have today (exceptions like polymorph are fairly common too!). I'd start with those to figure out the effect they would have on the world.

And remember that people believe woods are haunted even today. They just believe science can't explain ghosts so there are elements of the world that lie outside our current means of acquiring information. The same will be true in any setting. Just make sure that there is some set of occurrences that can't be accounted for by commonly understood phenomena. Then you have a mystery.

[Karro]

I think with regards the original "could there be a haunted woods next to my city" question it depends on outside pressures, if its monstered up enough that peasants cant jsut wander round and map it up then an official foray would have to be made into it, if no danger came out of it, and there were negihbouring countries on the borders that warranted more attnetion for the military they may not get round it it.


With regards magic, bear in mind those in the woods may well have access to high magic too (thinking of the standard wood elf illusion approach here)

Hmm. My ultimate goal is to produce a setting that's logically consistent and realistic within the bounds of reason, yet has an air of mystery and the unknown. I'm hoping for something at once familiar and yet distinct and flavorful with enough new ideas to be worth the doing. So... I wanted to see what other factors I could find in play besides the "standard wood elf illusion" you elude to. For my own benefit, I think I've seen a lot of good perspectives here...

I guess the most important forms of magic to consider in this context are divinations. If you can cast commune and ask a deity "Are those woods haunted" and have the deity say "No" then mystery disappears pretty fast. Equally, divination magic of this form would screw up technological innvation a bit. Imagine a rather advanced technopriest casting divination "What's the relation between energy and matter?" and his god replying "E=mc^2". That gets rid of all mystery in the world. I'd make sure that such magic tools are sharply limited.

The second thing to do is consider forms of magic that mimic real world technologies. These will have an impact on your world that are predictable. Common use of Sending mimics the invention of the telephone and allows for instant communication between dispersed troops - which is very important in any warlike fantasy setting. Rock-to-mud mimics real world sappers - making fortifications very vulnerable. You'd expect the fortress builders of the world to spend the money to counter these sort of attacks. Fly allows for the equivalent of airborne spotter planes and also bombers. These appeared in the first and second world wars. Fireball mimics artillery and will mean that no fortress will have exposed battlements any more - fortresses will have overhead cover as well. Those are a few examples, but in most cases the magic proposed in fantasy settings mimic some technological advance we have today (exceptions like polymorph are fairly common too!). I'd start with those to figure out the effect they would have on the world.

And remember that people believe woods are haunted even today. They just believe science can't explain ghosts so there are elements of the world that lie outside our current means of acquiring information. The same will be true in any setting. Just make sure that there is some set of occurrences that can't be accounted for by commonly understood phenomena. Then you have a mystery.

WRT divinations, I feel like the best way to handle these is not to have access to pure knowledge like that simply through a spell. Vague, symbol-laden and often conflicting prophecies are one thing for flavor... straight-up D&D-style Q&A's with the divinity of your choice are a little tougher for me to swallow. Then again... I guess vague, symbol-laden and conflicting prophecies are kind of a well-worn trope...

But your point on how magic mimics technology was similar to the stance I was taking in an earlier post, and largely I agree with what you're saying.

[Badger]

ooooo... I Love this topic... A L O T.

Technology/Magic and Culture Advancement Rate = The relative Number of major outside influences.

All of these things will advance to a certain degree, because sentient beings (like humans) push themselves to delve into the next great mystery and move things forward to better their way of life. Barring any outside influences, the relative rate and level of achievement will usually progress in a forward manner with sporadic 'Leaps' forward. (by leaps, I mean when someone, somewhere hits on that Eureka Idea and moves their field forward... hint: E=MC²)

Outside Influences however, happen and are usually detrimental to a societies progress. The biggest one of these is probably war and being conquered. Many civilizations have met the end of their days simply by being subdued into the history books (Aztecs come to mind). Then of course.... Plagues, Massive Crop failures, Draughts, Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Cats and Dogs..... you get the picture. So, that is what you can apply from real world perspective.

Add in the bit about fantasy and well, the equation is no longer an equation but more or less a gigantic web of possiblities.

Religion is a big one in a fantasy world I think. Especially in a place where the Gods do walk among mortals and have direct influence on events that shape the world. Beings of Supreme power and unlimited resources (some anyways) can have a direct bearing on culture and technology.

Its hard to think what kind of legends and myths you could have in a world chocked full of dragons, wyverns, dire toads and leprechauns. Simply the word Legend and Myth become synonymous with fact.

I actually had a point when I started, but I've had to many errands in between writing this post, so I think I'll quit while I'm ahead

[Gamerprinter]

Good points, Del. And... just to return the favor, I see your sitting at 99 rep, soooo... I bonk you with my +4 bonker! Now you've got another green pip! Congrats.

GP

[Karro]

ooooo... I Love this topic... A L O T.

Technology/Magic and Culture Advancement Rate = The relative Number of major outside influences.

All of these things will advance to a certain degree, because sentient beings (like humans) push themselves to delve into the next great mystery and move things forward to better their way of life. Barring any outside influences, the relative rate and level of achievement will usually progress in a forward manner with sporadic 'Leaps' forward. (by leaps, I mean when someone, somewhere hits on that Eureka Idea and moves their field forward... hint: E=MC²)

Outside Influences however, happen and are usually detrimental to a societies progress. The biggest one of these is probably war and being conquered. Many civilizations have met the end of their days simply by being subdued into the history books (Aztecs come to mind). Then of course.... Plagues, Massive Crop failures, Draughts, Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Cats and Dogs..... you get the picture. So, that is what you can apply from real world perspective.

Add in the bit about fantasy and well, the equation is no longer an equation but more or less a gigantic web of possiblities.

Religion is a big one in a fantasy world I think. Especially in a place where the Gods do walk among mortals and have direct influence on events that shape the world. Beings of Supreme power and unlimited resources (some anyways) can have a direct bearing on culture and technology.

Its hard to think what kind of legends and myths you could have in a world chocked full of dragons, wyverns, dire toads and leprechauns. Simply the word Legend and Myth become synonymous with fact.

I actually had a point when I started, but I've had to many errands in between writing this post, so I think I'll quit while I'm ahead

Thanks. These are very good points, I believe.

I had considered the fact that after a civilization ages a bit technological developments are bound to increase unless there is some outside factor that stalls this technological development, and I think the same would hold true with magical developments.

Certainly plagues and natural disasters and barbarian invasions can have this sort of negative effect on development. Although I think in actuality, War has a means of improving upon technology as well... it's just that the technologies that improve are typically military in nature, but these often have a way of spinning off technologies that improve other aspects of life. Of course, this is not completely true (as per the aforementioned Barbarian Invasions). Those cultures that are conquered will have their technological innovations either stifled or appropriated. But when conquered by "Barbarians", the innovation is likely to be lost as the Barbarians lack the expertise to co-opt and utelize the technologies of their enemies. (I think this is essentially what happened to the Roman Empire, more-or-less.)

The bit about myths, though, is one area that I'm still exploring... What if in a given world things like, say, leprechauns were real but dragons were not, yet there were still legends and myths of dragons?

That was the idea behind the haunted forest question: whether or not there was something real in the forest that was dangerous to people, the locals believed that there was something dangerous in the forest. At what point of technological (and magical) and cultural (and religious) development do the people stop believing the forest is haunted if, in fact, it is not haunted? (If it is haunted... then I gather at no point would they necessarily stop believing it, as the facts will prove it out.)

[jfrazierjr]

That was the idea behind the haunted forest question: whether or not there was something real in the forest that was dangerous to people, the locals believed that there was something dangerous in the forest. At what point of technological (and magical) and cultural (and religious) development do the people stop believing the forest is haunted if, in fact, it is not haunted? (If it is haunted... then I gather at no point would they necessarily stop believing it, as the facts will prove it out.)

That's the thing, you can't answer this question. There are many places where people have a somewhat modern level of technology and yet they may still believe in one of more mythical creatures or haunted places. Likewise, you can culturally have some people who are 5, 10, 100 miles apart and one group may believe in something entirely, while the other may reject it out of hand as being totally false.

While technology may have a hand in helping dispel belief in a myth for some, for many no amount of mumbo jumbo("proof") will change their mind(I liken this to political divisions.) You can provide some people with the most intelligent and sound arguement and never convince them of the true. One good example is try to explain to a color blind person that something is green(which they tyipically see as brown IIRC). No amount of argument will change the fact that the other person is not wrong, it's just that their perception only sees what you are pointing at as being brown. End result, if they don't know they are colorblind, then either you just argee the point non stop or one of your gives up and says "ok, you win" so they can get you to shut up(or you get into a fight about it!).

[Karro]

That's the thing, you can't answer this question. There are many places where people have a somewhat modern level of technology and yet they may still believe in one of more mythical creatures or haunted places. Likewise, you can culturally have some people who are 5, 10, 100 miles apart and one group may believe in something entirely, while the other may reject it out of hand as being totally false.

I guess you're right there, as was pointed out by you and Torstan earlier... proving a negative is difficult.

Though something along those lines was the original impetus of the post, I think I've gotten a lot of good thoughts to mull around with since then, and I'm developing some decent and hopefully logical explanations for some of the factors I want, and changing some things around in my head, with regard to my own setting.

[Ghostman]

While technology may have a hand in helping dispel belief in a myth for some, for many no amount of mumbo jumbo("proof") will change their mind(I liken this to political divisions.)

You make a point, but I think most people will at least start to doubt their beliefs if presented with credible arguments and evidence.

Rather than a matter of technology, I think the haunted forest example is more a matter of education. Karro, if you want to try and determine a 'realistic' level of superstition in an area, it may be useful to consider the following questions:

• What kind of education is available for the upper classes? How common is it for an upper-class person to have received such education? How much resources are they able/willing to expend on education?
• What kind of education, if any, is available to the lower classes? How many people of lower classes have received any education at all?
• Are there prevailing attitudes or prejudices against teachers?
• Who provides the education? Is it controlled by clergy, some political faction, local aristocracy, state, or can anyone become a teacher?
• Are there many charlatans posing as teachers?
• Is there enough interaction between the lower and upper classes to allow for the latter's presumably higher education to influence the beliefs of the former, or will social stratification hinder this?
• Does the area contain any institutions or organizations that promote learning? (Think along the lines of Plato's academy, the early universities, or even just a library made available for local scholars.)
• How well connected is the area with the rest of the world? Can scholars engage in correspondence with colleagues abroad? Are there political/scholastic/religious reasons to disregard foreign ideas and knowledge?