An interesting discussion topic...

[Wingshaw]

"Critiques of fantasy maps have more to do with the shortcomings of fantasy worlds than the maps that depict them."

Hi all.

I saw this article, and thought I'd share it here to find out what other people think: The Territory Is Not The Map

I think it is refreshing to see real attention paid to fantasy maps outside the niches that create and use them, but it doesn't come across as very enthusiastic or optimistic.

What do you think?

Wingshaw

[Azélor]

It whine about modern fantasy mapping without explaining much what the problem is.
I think he simply don't understand that this is a form of art for many artist. And art doesn't follow specific rules.
Just look at all the different styles we have at the Guild. It's impossible to put it all in the same category.
We mix different elements from different era, that is a common thing in of the contemporary era.

Well actually I'm not sure what the article was about, that's just my understanding.

[Mouse]

I have basic qualifications in Geology and Geomorphology, among other things, but if I let that influence my writing, or the consequent mapping, my tales would indeed be dull... dull.... and more dull LOL!

As for singling out a particular fantasy map from among billions there are in the world today as being an example of something 'bad' or 'wrong' - that's just totally ridiculous (and a horribly spiteful thing to say about the work of the particular artist in question). I stopped reading at that point because the guy obviously knows nothing at all about fantasy, map making, or art, and is consequently talking a load of hogwash. (Well they do say if you can't do anything yourself become a critic - which is what he is, since I note he's never written a book or drawn a map himself)

In my opinion he's one of those unfortunate people who wasn't born with the talents he wanted (whatever they might actually be), and instead of just getting on with something else he can't seem to stop himself subtly shredding other people who happen to have what he covets, under the guise of being a book 'reviewer'.

However, that is just my personal opinion

[DanielHasenbos]

I don't think the author of the article really understands the purpose of lost fantasy maps. I believe that the purpose of a fantasy map is to visualize a fictional world. The focus of the map shouldn't be geographic or geological accuracy, but and accurate depiction of the plot/story. Judging a fantasy map is a 'real' map just won't work since they're entirely different kinds of maps.

[Tenia]

As for singling out a particular fantasy map from among billions there are in the world today as being an example of something 'bad' or 'wrong'

The focus of the map shouldn't be geographic or geological accuracy, but and accurate depiction of the plot/story

That, I could not agree more. And I think that, actually, the map he quotes is 'good' ! When I am reading a book (whether it's an adventure or expedition story, a fantasy or sci-fi novel or something else) what I expect from a map is to help me easily locate the plot or story. It doesn't bother me if it is not 'artistic' or elaborate but yes I like when mountains look like mountains and when cities and other spots are clearly identifiable.

[Wingshaw]

Judging a fantasy map is a 'real' map just won't work since they're entirely different kinds of maps.

I think this sums it up the best.

Wingshaw

[Wired]

I have to agree with the stated sentiments here.

I'm not certain Jonathan Crowe understands the purpose of a fantasy map. And a lot of his criticism seems to be far-fetched.

"Jared Blando's book fails to tell about the geographic rules that maps are based on!" Well, that's because establishing those never was the purpose of the guide in the first place. Jared's work is a "How to", not a "Why?".

"That Terry Goodkind map is bad!" Given that it's a 23 year old, conciously simple lineart map without a scale ("the terrain is so ridiculously, implausibly mountainous" - I wonder if that gentleman has ever seen the Scottish Highlands or the German Uplands^^) I don't see what's so bad about it. It serves it's purpose perfectly well by visualizing the layout of the land to the reader.

“What does a fantasy map look like?”—or more to the point, “What is a fantasy map supposed to look like?”—is a question I get a lot, especially from beginner fantasy writers who want to Get It Right.

I, uh,... I got nothing. Don't get me wrong, asking for advice is a laudable thing. I do it all the time here, as do most others. After all, that is one large reason for the very existence of this community. But I find it hard to believe that someone who has written or wants to write a story usually exceeding 120.000 words would ask someone how their world ought to look like. If I design a world or story setting it'll look in whatever way it best supports the narrative, not how some supposed authority on the internet thinks it should.^^

[Eilathen]

I'm not sure i agree with you guys...at least not completely. I can understand that not every mapper can also be a savant when it comes to real world workings of geography. But that does not mean that you can't at least try to be a bit more realistic with your maps. The excuse "but it is art...!!" is a non-satisfactory one to me. Let me take the sting out of that a bit...if you can explain your map with fantasy-reasonings that make sense, i'm totally ok with that.
I have not read the article (yet) so i don't know what it says, but for me there definitely are fantasy maps that are so....inconsistent/"stupid"/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it, that it diminishes my enjoyment of the map and the book. Granted, as someone who also has studied the field of geography/geology/etc. i might not be your usual map-viewer BUT my feelings about this topic go way back...back to a time when i did not have that knowledge and i still felt that way (but was less informed about the topic myself).

So i guess what i'm saying is - there is such a thing as a map that is just nonsensical to me and therefore not something i enjoy (and not just because the art-style is not to my taste...that is a different thing). Does every mapper have to do tectonics and windpatterns and erosion in an exact way? No, certainly not! But it wouldn't hurt the artist to at least read a bit about how real world stuff works and to make some effort in that direction. At least in my opinion.

[Blaidd Drwg]

This is one of those pieces where, when I'm done reading, I wonder what the hell it was about exactly. So there's a problem with fantasy maps (the few (apparently) that the writer has seen) sharing a common language of sorts? And what makes the example of a fantasy map he uses bad? It's pretty good, I'd say. He doesn't explain why, at any rate, he just assumes its poor quality is somehow obvious. Meh.

[Straf]

I read the article and wondered if the author is writing more about his own shortcomings. He seems to have this obsession with compartmentalising everything. For example gaming and story telling are not separate disciplines that require distinct 'rules'. For a start there are no such things as rules. When my friends and I played Star Wars as kids we didn't sit down and discuss the rules based on the geography of Tatooine and how we should transpose that in terms of the urban environment of our immediate neighbourhood. We'd decide who'd be the sand people and who would be Jedis, or more specifically Obiwan and Luke Skywalker. Someone's sister would be Princess Leia. The fact that our tarmacked road, red brick walls and privet hedges weren't features of Tatooine in any shape or form, or that two of the sand people's mam would call them in for their tea leaving the kidnapped Leia unguarded in their 'den' was neither here nor there. We didn't even keep to the original plot lines. We imagined it all, we role played, we gamed. Not around a table, not on a computer, but out in the streets of a windswept Northeastern England mining village.

Was my world the same as the others? Probably not. If we had to draw a map of our little games, how similar would they be? Probably very different. We used the elements of Star Wars to create our own little stories, our own little fantasies. We did the same thing with Cowboys & Indians, Japs & English, Fox & Hounds. We created our own stories using our own imaginations and transformed our own environment into a completely different one.

And we drew maps. We mainly drew maps on garden paths using makeshift chalk. Usually a piece of brick that had broken off a wall or a piece of slate that we'd found. I remember a friend's granddad coming out to give us grief because we'd covered his garden path with road networks to play Cops & Robbers with our toy cars. One lad had a Starsky & Hutch replica car, The General Lee and I had a Batmobile. Oh and I think someone had a 007 Aston Martin that fired plastic rockets. Sometimes we drew maps indoors when it was raining. I had a roll of paper - I think it was a spare roll of that lining paper stuff. We'd roll out a reasonable sized piece and we'd lay on the floor drawing maps. Every map had to have mountains, forests and at least one desert. It's highly likely the River Police would have had us detained in a cartography correctional unit.

I can't remember if there's a point to my rambling reminiscences other than the distinction between fantasy storytelling and gaming is not a solid line - it's very fuzzy and very variable.

The River Police is a bit of fun but did people have the same knowledge about rivers, or any topographic feature, thousands of years ago? There is evidence that we've been drawing maps for at least 14,000 years. Perhaps criticism should be aimed at those hunter-gatherer communities of pre-agriculture Europe. Or perhaps not as the article linked to states

"The landscape depicted corresponds exactly to the surrounding geography," she said. "Complete with herds of ibex marked on one of the mountains visible from the cave itself."

perhaps there was an Upper Paleolithic cartographic standards institute going from cave system to cave system ensuring accuracy.


One question that I often ask about maps in fantasy novels (in my own head anyway) is who was the cartographer and what understanding did s/he have about the world that they had mapped. Indeed what formal training would they have had in geography, geology and any other ology for that matter? Not very much I'd wager. I can therefore accept glaring inaccuracies or erroneous features. Is the map part of the story or is it intended as a guide for the reader to follow? If the former from where did the cartographer get the information from? I was recently reading that the maps of the known world held in the great library in Alexandria were drawn by people who had hardly set foot outside of the city but had gathered their information from the various documents that had been 'acquired'. The known world then was Europa, Asia and North Africa. They were probably considered the whole world, or at least the only bits that were considered important. We look at them in the same way we look at a child's drawing now, but back then they were the most definitive representations of the world of the time.